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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Assembling the Super Thumper /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1364431622 Message started by Super Thumper on 03/27/13 at 17:47:01 |
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Title: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 03/27/13 at 17:47:01 I installed the 97mm Big Bore Kit, ported cylinder head and the Stage III cam today. The displacement with the 97mm kit is 695cc. Still to come is the Mikuni VM36 carb & the Barnett High Performance clutch. [img][/img] |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by 45acp on 03/27/13 at 18:03:26 look pretty sweet. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by ToesNose on 03/28/13 at 03:49:36 Looks so nice and clean!!!! Hey Super the links require a log in, directly link some more pics if you get a chance please :D |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by teabowl13 on 03/28/13 at 08:29:21 Hold onto your ass; that's going to be a beast!! ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 03/28/13 at 09:22:35 Does any body know how to add more than one .JPG image to a post? Tried the "insert image" function on the toolbar but all I can do is add a link to a pic somewhere else. That's what I tried here but my pics are in web site in a non-public area. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Dave on 03/28/13 at 09:30:56 6F7178747A756972731D0 wrote:
This site does not have a process that will post multiple phots. You have to use Photobucket ro Tinypic or a similar site to host the photos. I sent you a personal message this morning that explains the process. Dave |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Serowbot on 03/28/13 at 10:01:04 My buddy Gerry just installed a "Semi-Super-Thumper" that self destructed in less than 1,000 miles... Never even got past break-in... He gave up the bike, and bought a Harley... :-?... I hope you have better luck, ST... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by paulmarshall on 03/28/13 at 12:29:21 6F7178747A756972731D0 wrote:
Cant view your other pics :-[ |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Cavi Mike on 03/29/13 at 08:33:44 Once you get that thing up and running you gotta let me know how that 97mm kit sounds and feels. I got a down payment on one, I'm prolly gonna get that cam also. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 03/30/13 at 09:53:06 I sold my 1983 Harley Sportster XLX 1000cc Ironhead shortly after I bought my Savage. The sportster had 2500 miles on a top end rebuild inculding an S&S Super carb and drag pipes. My Savage Rides better, handles better, vibrates a LOT less, gets better gas mileage, and when the high perf build is finished will be faster than my Harley. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 03/30/13 at 09:55:58 Once the build is finished I intend to post some video on YouTube for all to see and hear. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 03/30/13 at 10:08:59 When I removed the engine from the frame and before I disassembled anything I covered all the holes with tape and took a plastic bristle mag wheel cleaning brush to it along with some help from several cans of brake clean. It came out as you see it and it was pretty grungy before, lots of leakage around the head gasket, etc. Lower engine cases were very dirty. Valves and cam chain were noisy and in need of adjustment, oil was BLACK! :o....There were several more minor issues which is why I decided to do a top end rebuild...why not? ::) |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by RidgeRunner13 on 03/30/13 at 10:11:21 Which bottom end are you using, 4 or 5 speed? :-/ I'd like to build up one using a 4 speed bottom with starter drive mods, & the 95mm bore w/hotter cam. I think that would give me the bike I really want. 8-) That may be because my first Savage was a new '87 & I was really disappointed with the 4-5 ratio difference. :( 5th was just added because every thing else was a 5 speeed & Suzuki thouht just being a 4 speed was hurting sales! :o |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 03/30/13 at 12:56:09 My bottom end is a 2001 5-speed. I also have two 4-speed bottom ends for sale, and a 95mm Big Bore Kit. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by RidgeRunner13 on 03/30/13 at 13:54:26 If I had the extra $$$$, I'd buy a 4 speed lower end from you. If I was doing your build & had access to a 4 speed, that's what I would use. Unfortunitly I am currently low on funds for projects like that. First priority right now is getting back to a good looking bike set up for my wife to use daily. I'll be putting a travel trunk on it later. :) Have you ever ridden a 4 speed Savage? The gear ratios are much more of an even spread than the 5 speeds. That 4-5 spread is too close too be effective in increasing the overall performance. my '87 was the fastest stock Savage of the three I've owned. 8-) Besides, having a four speed would make for a more unique bike anyway! ;D |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 03/30/13 at 17:52:35 I have ridden an 88 4-speed Savage in the past and you are right...the gear spacing is much better than the 5-speed especially the 3rd to 4th gear spacing. I have a tach on my 2001 Savage and the RPM drop from 3rd to 4th gear is only 500 RPM and the 4th gear to 5th gear RPM drop is only 250 RPM . This why I switched from the belt drive to a chain drive so I could tailor my cruising RPM's to better suit the engine's power band. I stock form it was turning 4000 RPM at 60 MPH. I thought this was a little high even for the stock engine...in stock form she has enough torque to pull 3500 RPM at 60 MPH easilly. I am using a 17 tooth front sprocket and a 43 tooth rear so my 60 MPH RPM will be about 3200. less stress on the engine and better MPG. It is disassembled right now for a top end high perf rebuild but I will post pics of the chain drive when I put it back together. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by inglourioushoko on 10/10/15 at 21:45:40 Can you please, please, PLEASE update this thread. I want to know everything there is to know about your build, especially about the big bore. I'm really wanting to bore out my Savage, but as I'm in New Zealand, it's hard to commit to pulling my bike apart and shipping my head/cam across the world when I can't actually find any videos/ feedback about how these run when they are fully kitted out. Any information you have would be much appreciated. Cheers :) |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by jcstokes on 10/10/15 at 23:31:57 There was a guy Paul Marshall in Carterton in the Wairarapa who posted on this forum and had done the big bore thing. If you can search the membership list his many posts should be there somewhere, there was also a guy in Christchurch who supercharged a Savage/S40. You need to check whether the 97mm piston is still available, some seem to think 95mm is the biggest you can get. Dunno where you are but try Googling Glendene engine reconditioners in Kelston, they work with a lot of racing engines and they seem to have a good reputation for boring and so on. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by inglourioushoko on 10/11/15 at 01:13:58 Thank you so much for that! I'm looking into it now, cheers :) |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by paulmarshall on 10/11/15 at 01:21:23 4148585F44404E582B0 wrote:
Im still here just been busy with my new house. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by paulmarshall on 10/11/15 at 01:23:51 Plus a BMW R80/7 found me and have been restoring it. :) |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by jcstokes on 10/11/15 at 01:33:06 Keep well Paulmarshall, hope you can help the Inglourious fellow. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by paulmarshall on 10/11/15 at 01:44:19 75727B7073696E7573696F747377731C0 wrote:
Hi inglourioushoko I went to my local bike shop and they found my 97 Wiseco sent my barrel away to be bored and installed it for me. You should still be able to find a 97 in NZ. Start with your local bike shop. What part of NZ are you in? |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by inglourioushoko on 10/11/15 at 01:54:34 Cheers Paul! I'm in Auckland, but I'm pretty new to the whole customization/engine work game, so I barely know where to start. I've been in contact with Lancer, I'm thinking I might purchase the piston, carb etc from here and get the head bored here. Now that the s40 is my secondary bike and it's off the road due an electrical problem, I'm super keen to pull it apart and see what I can do with it. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Dave on 10/11/15 at 04:50:50 The 95 and 96mm Wiseco is available - Wiseco no longer keeps the 97mm in stock, and only makes it when someone places a bulk order. You may be lucky enough to find a leftover somewhere - but they are hard to find. Lancer bought a the last few 97mm pistons that Wiseco had in stock, and he still has e a few of them for sale. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1436923466 |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 10/11/15 at 09:11:28 94mm - 652cc - OEM stock bore diameter 95mm - 666cc - First overbore size 96mm - 680cc - Second overbore size 97mm 0 695cc - Third overbore size. Beyond 97mm - such as 98mm - requires a larger cylinder sleeve and then there is the issue with the cylinder head to cylinder bore area...you will have the edge of the cylinder head and head gasket slightly protruding into the bore....this creates a hot spot that will cause detonation.....sooo bores larger than 97mm will require a custom head gasket a custom piston and some combustion chamber work by a qualified performance shop to re-shape this area. Remember MOST of the power increase comes from the compression ratio increase from the stock 8.5/1 to the Wiseco piston's 10.5/1....Is it really worth spending the $$$ on the custom head gasket, 98mm piston and larger 98mm cylinder sleeve and head work for a few more HP than what you get with the readily available 97mm piston? As far as cylinder head work is concerned the 650 savage has a pretty good intake port only needing some smoothing and carb flange size matching A.K.A. blueprinting. The 650 Savage exhaust port is very poor....it only flows about 50% of what the intake port does. The stock exhaust port has an ugly, narrow, sharp casting edge where the exhaust gasket is. I open up and smooth out the exhaust port as much as can be done safely without weakening the cylinder head and I match the exhaust port exit to the exhaust pipe gasket to eliminate that turbulence area... With the cylinder head work and a performance cam & a 38mm Lectron carb (.354) lift my engine pulls strong right up to 8000 RPM...I won't rev it any higher than that. These engines are so mildly tuned by Suzuki that they respond very well to performance work. the stock 650 Savage puts down 24 rear wheel HP...with these mods you can increase this to 48 rear wheel HP without too much effort. 1) High compression big bore kit 2) Better flowing exhaust system 3) Better camshaft 4) Improved air flow through the intake & exhaust ports 5) Improved carburetion....you will NEVER get good throttle response or power from the OEM Mikuni BS40 CV carb. The BS40 Mikuni carb Suzuki puts on these bikes was originally used by Harley Davidson on their 1980's 1000cc Iron head Sportsters and it is way too large a carb for our 652cc Savage engine. The formula used by engine builders to determine carb size is available here..... http://www.csgnetwork.com/cfmcalc.html The stock 652cc Savage engine requires at MOST a 80 CFM carb for a highly modified engine. The Mikuni BS40 carb that comes on our 650 Savage FLOWS 140 CFM....this is way too much carb for this engine size and results in sluggish engine performance, poor throttle response & poor fuel economy. Here are some CFM numbers for some popular Mikuni carb sizes ........... 33mm MIKUNI Carburetor 103 CFM 34mm MIKUNI Carburetor 109 CFM 35mm MIKUNI Carburetor 115 CFM 36mm MIKUNI Carburetor 119 CFM 38mm MIKUNI Carburetor 129 CFM 40mm MIKUNI carburetor 140 CFM The smaller the carb the better the fuel economy, drive-ability, low-mid range torque and throttle response. The larger the carb the better the high RPM performance. There is always a trade-off here...you have to determine at what RPM your engine is going to operate MOST OF THE TIME !! Street engines typically operate between 1500 and 5000 RPM so choose your carb size and engine modifications accordingly. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by inglourioushoko on 10/13/15 at 12:40:28 Thanks so much for the info everyone, huge help. Does anyone have a link to any videos of a fully worked s40 running? Or to any threads regarding a completed build? |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by inglourioushoko on 10/13/15 at 12:44:29 Also Super Thumper, did you finish this build? Would to see pictures etc. :) |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 10/14/15 at 09:38:14 My personal 2001 Suzuki LS650 is a fully built 97mm engine. I will take some pics and post a short video soon. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 01/18/16 at 07:48:17 The camshaft is one we have Web Cams grind for us....it is a custom profile and makes some great mid-range power. www.windsorcycles.com |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Kris01 on 01/18/16 at 19:47:48 Hey Super Thumper, I'm curious as to where you got your flow numbers for the BS40. If it does flow 140 cfm then you are right. It is too large. However, knowing what little I know of this carbs efficiency (or lack thereof), maybe Suzuki upsized the carb to compensate for lack of efficiency. :-? Have you flow tested this carb? |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 01/19/16 at 09:22:54 No I have not flow tested the OEM Mikuni BS40 carb. I have included below some information I have gathered over a considerable amount of time on the internet doing research in this area. Keep in mind that Mikuni does NOT provide airflow numbers for their carbs (Ever wonder why ?) Calculate Carb CFM needed for a given engine size Required Intake CFM for an given engine size Volumetric Efficiancy (VE) is affected by intake type, camshaft grind and type, boost, and many other factors. Here are some guidelines. Factory engine: 65%-75% Mild street performance, flat-tappet cam: 80% - 83% Mild street performance, roller cam: 90% - 93% All-out race engine, 95%-105% Blown engines, typically over 100% or higher, depending on amount of boost. Instructions 1) Find the displacement of your engine in cubic inches (CID). Determine the maximum RPM for your car. For example you may have 450 CID with a maximum RPM of 5,000. 2) Check the volumetric efficiency (VE) of your engine. If you don't know, you can assume that it's about 80 percent since most street cars are designed to that level of efficiency. 3) Multiply the CID by the maximum RPM and divide that product by the product of 3,456 and the VE. For example you would multiply 450 by 5,000 to get 2,250,000 and then multiply 3,456 by 80 percent to get 2,764.8. Then divide 2,250,00 by 2,764.8 to get the CFM required: 813.8. 4) Select a carburetor that will produce 110 percent to 120 percent of the required CFM. For example with a required CFM of 813.8 you would select a carburetor that can produce between 895 and 975 CFM. Another formula to use is: CID x RPM Divided by 3456 = CFM Suzuki Savage Engine: 652cc - 40 ci VE - 75% - performance cam - 80% Engine redline - 6500 RPM Required CFM: Stock engine: 62 to 79 cfm (calculated) Required CFM: Performance modified engine: 66 to 84 cfm (calculated) http://www.carburetion.com/calc.aspAprox Approximately 71 CFM Needed for a 40 CID Mildly Built Engine 36 Centimeters (cm) = 14.173228346457 Inches (in) A Mikuni 36mm carb flows approximately 120 CFM. Carb CFM calculators http://www.csgnetwork.com/cfmcalc.html http://speedmaster79.com/tools/carburetor-size-needed/ http://www.bleachburnout.com/blog/2008/10/17/carburetor-cfm-calculator-with-graphing/ http://www.4secondsflat.com/Carb_CFM_Calculator.html Mikuni Carb size (IN CFM) 34mm MIKUNI Carburetor 109 CFM 35mm MIKUNI Carburetor 114 CFM 36mm MIKUNI Carburetor 119 CFM 38mm MIKUNI Carburetor 129 CFM 40mm Mikuni Carburetor 140 CFM |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by verslagen1 on 01/19/16 at 10:13:58 These calculators are for car... v6's and v8's, therefore almost continuous flow. If we were a twin with 80ci, then a carb with 120/140 would be calculated. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Kris01 on 01/19/16 at 17:58:33 If your numbers are correct then a 34 mm Mikuni would be a lot more responsive. Maybe the stock carb's size is one of the reasons why this bike runs so lean from the factory. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 01/19/16 at 22:44:15 The OEM Mikuni BS40 carb flows about 140 cfm. This is way too much according to the charts. I use a 38mm Lectron Power Jet carb (129 CFM) on my "Super Thumper" Due to the Lectron's patented venturi, flat slide and tapered needle this carb has razor sharp throttle response and a smooth power band all the way to 8000 RPM. My "Super Thumper" engine has a strong, flat power band all the way to the 8000 RPM self imposed redline. The fuel economy went from 52mpg in stock form to 65mpg in full performance trim. I have gotten 69mpg but the low end throttle response was not as crisp as I wanted it to be so I went richer on the needle and got the great throttle response I wanted and the fuel economy dropped only slightly from 69 to 65mpg. Those of you that don't need your engine to rev to 8000 rpm could use the smaller 36mm Lectron carb and get even better throttle response and fuel economy. I think with the right parts and some fine tuning we could get over 70mpg with a nicely modified 650 Savage engine that still makes much more power than stock. I have a friend who rides his Aprillia 250 scooter all the time and he gets 68mpg and he thought this was great until he rode my 700cc "Super Thumper" that gets 65mpg and rides like a real motorcycle. Now he wants to sell his scooter and buy one of my custom built bikes with a performance engine in it. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Art Webb on 01/20/16 at 09:01:28 so do I ;D but I still want the wind protection, and storage capacity oif a scoot Can't have it all Art ::) |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by badwolf on 01/20/16 at 15:56:24 Art, Yes you can....http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp198/carlrphair/s40/IMG_0252_zpsckt8mfbv.jpg |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Kris01 on 01/20/16 at 19:00:34 736D64686669756E6F010 wrote:
In stock form (read: lean), I was getting nearly 80 mpg but it was a totally stock engine. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Super Thumper on 01/21/16 at 08:00:12 That is a nice looking bike! I'll bet it's very comfortable too. If you want to improve the handling just add 2" longer rear shocks with some better dampening....the 2" longer length raises the rear just enough to alter the front fork's rake greatly improving steering and handling. I used Harley Sportster progressive rear shocks....they are about 2" longer than the OEM Suzuki shocks but I had to drill out the shock's mounting holes to 9/16" to fit over the Savage's mounting studs. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Art Webb on 01/22/16 at 09:27:14 Nice setup Badwolf, I know for a fact my underseat storage will hold more than those saddlebags, but the top case might make up the difference (my underseat will hold 2 FF helmets, or a full backpack AND a few hardback books) the Yamaha 650 seat might come close to the scooter seat in comfort You still have no leg protection, can't stand on the pegs to relieve butt burn (I can stand up on the boards) and unless you've re geared, it's likely not smooth at 80 ;) to be honest, if I'd had a few day with the scoot, instead of a few miles, I likely would have kept the S40 and modded it One thing I can say, forward controls or haighway bars are a good idea |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by badwolf on 01/22/16 at 10:16:51 Art, Yes it has both Kaw pullys, and a 150/90-15 shinko 230. It is running less than 3400 at 60. The back box will hold 2 ff helmets, and the top rack is great when I take a rifle to the range. The side bags hold the tools and rainsuit (I am in Fl, it rains ALOT) in one side and the other side is normally empty. You are right about the leg protection, when I get my PC800 back going the S40 is going in the back porch so I can build a frame mount faring out of foam and fiberglass. Unfortunately, I'm too busy riding to finish wrenching. But, I'm starting to get the hang of this retirement thing. |
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Title: Re: Assembling the Super Thumper Post by Art Webb on 01/22/16 at 11:22:25 you've definitely done a heckuva job there, and it do make me miss my S40 part of the trade was to get some credit history going, so I'm not balked buying things I want in the future I can say I have no problem with the idea of getting another S40 / savage, and sort of wish I'd kept mine (I could have, no down payment was required) question is, would I have ridden it enough to keep it running? I test rode a C50 while I was at it, there is no way one of those will ever come home with me :o |
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