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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Can't Start Bike! Need help /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1363446546 Message started by Michael Ralph on 03/16/13 at 08:09:06 |
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Title: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Michael Ralph on 03/16/13 at 08:09:06 So it has been a long time since I have been on these forums, but im having a problem with my bike I can't seem to figure out. I will crank and crank my bike but it will start This is all I know so far: 1. The carburetor is receiving fuel 2. The spark plug is getting spark 3. All electrical is 100% OK from switches to wires to plugs Now I don't fully understand everything about a carburetor but it would be useful if someone could explain how each function works on it but this is what I think I already know, correct me if im wrong. Fuel is pumped into float bowl, during start fuel is sucked through the PILOT JET? into the upper portion where air flows to engine, when throttle is opened more then it sucks through main and pilot jet. I think this is achieved when you open throttle and allow more air to the engine, the diaphragm reacts to the increased vacuum and pulls the needle from blocking fuel from going through the main jet. That is based off of part blowouts but please explain it if I'm wrong, Im thinking since it doesn't want to start then fuel must not be passing through the pilot jet. Note: I noticed after trying to start a hundred times, when I checked the spark plug it didn't seem that the cylinder was greatly flooded with fuel like I would expect it to do after so many failed start attempts. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Oldfeller on 03/16/13 at 08:25:33 Clarify your problem please. We are having to guess at where you are right now, how much you have modified your bike, etc. Tell us your starting point at this time. Describe your bike w/mods, etc. Will your bike really start as you say, or what is the problem that you are having if the bike does start OK? 1. do you have a tank full of fresh gasoline? 2. do you have a FULLY CHARGED BATTERY that is showing over 12.6 volts when checked after cranking for a second or two. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Trippah on 03/16/13 at 09:20:07 Michael R - the info Oldfeller request will help part the fog tremendously, but as he suggests, freshness of fuel and battery are tres important. Best of luck - Spring comes soon. ;) |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Michael Ralph on 03/16/13 at 10:10:43 Battery is fine, it cranks like nothing although I had to hook it to a charger after trying to crank it about 20 times. I live in New York but I have it in a heated garage at about 50 degrees, started a couple months ago and it was boggy, now it won't start anymore. Fresh fuel was put in October. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by oldNslow on 03/16/13 at 10:56:49 Quote:
Are you sure? If you have a stock petcock,turn it to PRIME,(or ON if you have a raptor) disconnect the fuel line at the carb and make sure fuel is running out of the hose. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by rfw2003 on 03/16/13 at 11:45:08 4D5E534F5752565C575E5A530E083F0 wrote:
5 month old fuel? did you use a stabilizer with it? if not I'm guessing your gonna need to drain the fuel and clean the carb. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Oldfeller on 03/16/13 at 13:22:22 MR, you are talking, but not saying anything really. "cranking like nothing" has no meaning, saying that your battery holds 12.8 volts after a full charge and cranking for 3 seconds has a lot of meaning. Your ignition box (the infamous black box) will not fire the spark plug at all if the voltage is as low as 11 volts after this quick test procedure. 11 volts will however crank the bike over fairly quickly at this voltage, which can cause folks to think they have a "mystery problem" with their bike when all it really is a poorly charged battery. Charge your battery up all the way with a 2 amp charger. About 8 hrs of charge time is all you need. Always have a fully charged battery and known good gasoline when doing any test procedure. You will need a volt/ohm meter to do some of these simple tests. You do have one, right? If not, please tell us now. Next, living up north, do you have a can of ether (quick starting fluid) laying around? There is a very quick test you can do with a can of ether that will tell you if the problem is electrical or carburetor based. Finally -- did you take your carburetor apart earlier by any chance? |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by JRLeathercraft on 03/16/13 at 15:30:27 I live in colorado and it seems cleaning the carb is an annual thing. Previously, when I lived in Texas and Lousisana I never ever cleaned out the carb on any bike, so I'm guess it is the cold and oxygen. If you have about 4 hours and a few tools, try cleaning the carb. I just did and it worked and my situation was similar. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Digger on 03/16/13 at 20:55:22 7B6865796164606A61686C65383E090 wrote:
Hi Michael, Please describe the test that you used to determine the fact that you had good spark. TIA! |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Michael Ralph on 03/16/13 at 21:03:51 Thanks for the replies The battery right now is at 12.8 volts and only drops down to 12.1 after hitting starter. I have taken apart the carb and cleaned before, actually I did this back in August when I had to replace that plug in the head that tends to leak. When I said cranking like nothin I meant that il there is no hesitation and it has a strong crank to it leaving out any possibility of a decompression solenoid or controller. I did use fuel stabilizer. I do have starting fluid Sometime soon I am going to replace the fuel, and clean the carb out again and check for any defects as a first step towards this |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/16/13 at 21:04:20 Love it, stomp up in here & scream for help & what are the symptoms? )Purely & simply, magic. Its a Spinin right on & its got Gas & its gettin spark,, well,, unless theres no air it otta be runnin.. Perhaps the rose colored glasses the OP is looking thru need adjusted. How about a more scientific description of your troubleshooting methods, so we can know what you really know ? Theres way too much room in that post for important info to be overlooked. How old is the gas? Did ya drain the bowl? Did ya try prime? Have ya used anything to make it fire, like ether? Its really about time for another troll attack,, this has all the earmarks. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Serowbot on 03/16/13 at 21:59:33 Mike seems to know what "cranking" means... We are skeptical,.. because so many people use the term to describe... most anything that don't make the bike start...;D... ...("cranking"... should mean,... the starter motor is turning the engine at good speed)... ...but,.. gettin' spark, gettin' fuel?... ... sounds like the fuel is flowing to the carb... but,.. not, gettin' to the engine... I think you're on the right track... with a clogged pilot... ... and, as you must know already... if the pilot is clogged... everything in there got the same gas treatment... It's cleanin' time... ;)... ....(next season... try a full to the top tank,.. with some Sta-Bil added... (full tank will prevent condensation, and hopefully,... Sta-bil will prevent the fuel from becoming varnish)... (fill up, and run it just a couple of miles to get the Sta-bil into the float bowl and jets... then park, and pray... all winter... ... also,.. it don't hurt, to roll the bike forward, and backerds' every couple of weeks,... to prevent flat spots on the tires... Pffft!... I live is Az... but, I do end up with bikes sitting for a while... :-[... |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Oldfeller on 03/17/13 at 05:18:42 So, you got a can of starting fluid? Good. Do not try to use choke or throttle or anything (choke can flood the engine sometimes) when you do this next trick. Take the air filter out and give the bike a good 1-2 count shot of ether deep into the air box opening - try to reach the carburetor. Then hit the starter button (no gas, no choke) for no more than 10 seconds. If you get nothing, repeat the blast of ether and the 10 second crank a second time. The bike will try to start off the ether itself, it has to do this if it has compression and a spark. What did you see when you did this test? |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Michael Ralph on 03/17/13 at 05:25:05 For my technical tests The battery was tested with a multimeter, and when it would run low I hooked her up to a battery charger and wouldn't try cranking again until it reached proper voltage I thought I wasn't getting any spark so I pulled the spark plug and tried cranking it and there was a healthy spark coming from the plug I have not yet tried the starting fluid, I'm not sure where to spray it and how much to use for a little 650, only time I have used ether was to start some cranky HMMVS in the military Before I take the carb out I remember it being extremely difficult to do so the way the clymer manual says to take of the hose clamp to the hose to the intake and pull back. Before I do this today is there any easier tricks? Preferably one with out removing the fuel tank, not that the fuel tank is hard to remove but I'm working in my dads garage and he seems to have enough of a fit when working on anything that has to do with fuel |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Oldfeller on 03/17/13 at 05:28:27 Here you go, one starting fluid test --- do this before taking the carburetor off again. 0221292B282121283F4D0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Michael Ralph on 03/17/13 at 09:39:17 Ok so the starter fluid yielded no results, so I took of the gas tank and cleaned the carb I did get a Harley muffler and replaced the factory jets with lances jet kit only using the jets annotated on the progressive carb tuning guide on this forum, I used the 1st step category for having a Harley or k and n filter, those jets weren't clogged when I pulled them out but I did do a good cleaning of the carb, I was curious about the 2 jets up by the diaphragm if those should be changed also with any of the jets provided in lances kit. Also I'm going to run to the store to replace the spark plug since I have the tank off, the plug that was in it was an nkg dpr8ea 9. Any other suggestions on a better plug for this bike before I swap it out? Note I did test the spark plug again and twisted up the lead to see if it was bending wile mounted keeping the spark plug from igniting, which it had no problems |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by oldNslow on 03/17/13 at 10:12:42 That's the correct plug. If you are getting a nice blue spark when you test the plug outside of the head, and the bike did not attempt to fire when you squirted the starting fluid into the intake the next thing to check is compression. Do you have a compression tester? Fooling with the carb is not going to solve your problem. If the problem was the carb the engine would have started and run for a few seconds on the starting fluid. How exactly did you test the plug? |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Michael Ralph on 03/17/13 at 10:35:22 To test the spark I just took the plug out, grounded on the block with the lead attached and saw a nice blue spark. I do not have a compression tester but possible could get my hands on one, is that something difficult to do? |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Michael Ralph on 03/17/13 at 10:48:02 Ok so I put the new spark plug in, didn't see much difference if there was any in spark, sprayed a half second squirt of starter fluid in the intake where the carb was, and got it to ignite it, a quick flame out the intake and that initial feel like the bike could start, obviously it couldn't with out fuel |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by oldNslow on 03/17/13 at 11:14:18 To check compression you put the gauge in the spark plug hole - some of them have threads like a plug so you can screw them in, some just have a rubber tip that you press into the hole. Then spin the engine for a few seconds with the starter and read the gauge. Should be somewhere between 140-200 psi. If it's not in that range there is a mechanical problem in the motor. HOWEVER; 90% of the time when an engine won't run the problem is spark or fuel. Was the carb float bowl full of fuel when you took it off ? And you did check that gas is flowing from the petcock into the carb. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Michael Ralph on 03/17/13 at 12:48:04 Well it's running. Not sure exactly what the problem was, but when I test drove it over 60, it was boggy and lost power, now I'm not sure if that's an idle mixture screw, spacer mod, pilot or main jet change, but could I get a good idea where to look first? |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Serowbot on 03/17/13 at 12:55:00 Idle mix,.. will only affect idle... I'd put the pilot jet back to stock,.. and the spacer if possible... then, try it from there... ...(What's yer' main?... #150?...)... we are tending to over-jet... |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by RidgeRunner13 on 03/17/13 at 13:24:36 MR, did you ever state which petcock you have??? :-? Absolutely need to know this or we're wastiing time..... Your problems may be the petcock. ::) |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Oldfeller on 03/17/13 at 16:34:21 +1 on the vac petcock for being known for doing that sort of stuff at full speed AND for making the bike a biatch to start when it refuses to flow any gas. Here is the test ..... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1251932429/1 My 25 cents is on the Infamous Poorly Designed Vac Petcock for being the whole mess the whole time (providing he has one that is). Wattaya say boys? Any takers ??? |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by oldNslow on 03/17/13 at 16:49:52 Quote:
I'm in. I think my suggestion that he check the petcock was about the third reply to the original question. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by rfw2003 on 03/17/13 at 17:18:26 there is also another possibility, even though he said he used a stabilizer in the fuel. If the tank wasn't completely full since this bike has sat since Oct. Condensation and such would have definitely built up in the tank. Water would have been on the bottom of the tank and that is what he would have been trying to start the bike with. After pulling the carb and all the attempts to start it he got most of the water out that was on the bottom of the tank, so this is why it is now starting, but still running like crap because the fuel is still 5 months old and needs replacing. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Michael Ralph on 03/18/13 at 02:13:59 Good news is that the bike is running strong, stock spacer and pilot jet in carb, put a 147.5 main in and it doesn't big at all, sure ill have to change something when it's 50 degrees warmer out. I put fresh fuel in the tank, new spark plug, and recleaned carb all at once but I think it was just the spark plug, even though I saw a good blue spark my uncle out up a good point that under compression the spark plug may not have been working, which would be why whn I sprayed the starter fluid directly in the chamber it didn't ignite before like it did when I switched out the plug. U learn something new everyday, but thanks for the help savage community |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/18/13 at 08:42:18 Glad ytou got it, REAL glad I was wrong, & Ill never understand why a plug would act different under compression, I just know sometimes they do, |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by oldNslow on 03/18/13 at 08:57:30 This is the second bike on here that I'm aware of where a "running like crap" problem turned out to be a spark plug that didn't seem to have anything wrong with it, wasn't firing right, and a new plug solved the problem. NGK plug quality going downhill? Or is the ignition system on our bikes not all that great? Suzuki says change it every 7500 miles. Maybe they know something. Lots of cars nowdays have plug replacement intervals of 30, 60 and 100 thousand miles. And I think that's mostly so the doggone things will actually unscrew after being in for so long, not 'cause the plugs quit firing. |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Dave on 03/18/13 at 09:15:19 4876777B6975741A0 wrote:
Several things have changed in modern cars that allow spark plugs to last a long time....some of them don't apply to the Savage. 1) Computer/Oxygen Sensor operated fuel systems precisely control fuel mixture. 2). No lead in fuel. 3) Spark plug tips are now made form exotic metals that are very durable and resist the rounding off that old conventional plugs did. Round electrodes make poor spark. Our Savage has a choke/throttle enrichment lever, a primitive carb, and a conventional spark plug......we don't get the high mileage out of our plugs. Several times I have suggested that there was no need to buy an exotic spark plug for our engine - it was not going to make any more HP than a stock plug. When I found out that the exotic plugs are only a couple of bucks more than a stock plug.......I changed my mind and I installed an NGK Iridium.....it won't hurt anything....but I am not sure if it will help anything either. I would not think there is any reason to buy a $ 15.00 double or quadruple electrode plug! |
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Title: Re: Can't Start Bike! Need help Post by Oldfeller on 03/18/13 at 18:33:50 The NKG iridium will toss a spark at reduced voltage compared to a standard plug. This "still sparks at low voltage" ability does play well with older bikes. |
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