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Message started by Demin on 03/11/13 at 04:02:38

Title: Starting question
Post by Demin on 03/11/13 at 04:02:38

On my '87 that I built...I used a 2000 engine.Used the '87 flywheel,sidecase,stater gears,brand new Autozone battery(seems kinda week though,as in no reserve time)... It still seems out of time,but my question is...Why does it only start after I release the starter button?If I hold the button in,it will crank and crank,let the button out it starts [smiley=undecided.gif]

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Charon on 03/11/13 at 05:37:07

While you are cranking the engine, the battery voltage is lower because of the starter's current draw. This lower voltage may be inadequate for the ignition control box, resulting in no spark. When you release the starter button the battery voltage will rise, allowing ignition spark. If conditions are right the engine can start.

Remember, a "new" battery is not necessarily the same as a "good" battery." Charge that battery at no more than 2 amps overnight, and see if it works better. That should have been done before you installed it.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Demin on 03/11/13 at 05:54:09

Yep,that's what I was thinking.Charged battery overnight,etc.Just thought maybe I was missing something with the engine change or decomp. adjustment or something.Probably a junk battery.

Thank you for your help. :)

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Boofer on 03/11/13 at 20:41:29

I'm not up to snuff on the compression release, but someone on here tell me if that is the problem. No compression till the release is.....released? :)

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by verslagen1 on 03/11/13 at 20:50:07

Nope, decomp is only active for 1/2 a second.

Charon has a good chance at being right.
And either your timing is impeccable or your battery recovers real quick.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Boofer on 03/11/13 at 21:31:07

Vers, that's my point. Is it possible that the decomp is staying open until power is removed because of faulty timer? Just guessing.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by verslagen1 on 03/11/13 at 21:43:08

517C7C757661130 wrote:

Vers, that's my point. Is it possible that the decomp is staying open until power is removed because of faulty timer? Just guessing.

Never heard of it before, easy enough to check, put an eyeball on it before you mash down the starter button.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Cavi Mike on 03/12/13 at 01:34:04

If it's not the decomp solenoid it might be the timing retard during cranking. ~~The CDI doesn't need much of anything for power to fire off a spark. If the motor is cranking, the battery has more than enough power to make a spark.~~

*edit* I'm mistaken. The bike doesn't have a CDI.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Demin on 03/12/13 at 05:10:18

I'm thinking timing.I get alot of kickback on shutdown too.And I have the old style starter gears in it.I'm going to pull the side cover off and have a look at everything.Maybe change it out for another one.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Demin on 03/12/13 at 05:54:38

I was just on Ron Ayers site.According to their parts diagrams the '87 and the '00 have the same rotor and stator,pick up included.Like I said,I'll have to pull mine apart and see what's up.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by verslagen1 on 03/12/13 at 07:15:19

Don't mistake can't get the old one with it's the same.

I can assure you, they're not.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Routy on 03/12/13 at 07:32:18

Quote:
If the motor is cranking, the battery has more than enough power to make a spark.
-----------------------------------------------------
Not so on my bike,......and I believe others agree,.if the battery is low enuff that the engine is cranking slowly, it will not start. Put a charger on it for a couple minutes, it starts instantly.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Demin on 03/12/13 at 08:18:22

372433322D2026242F70410 wrote:

Don't mistake can't get the old one with it's the same.

I can assure you, they're not.

That's what I thought! I did use the '87 electrics and flywheel.I even had a thread to double check.Seems like timing is way off,because of the kickback I'm getting.

If I put a charger on it,sometimes it does start.....Autozone battery....
Maybe I'll throw my big crank in and see what happens

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Cavi Mike on 03/12/13 at 08:24:36

050A100B17110200080611630 wrote:

That's compression leaking down - not the spark failing. Next time it happens, pull the plug boot off and you'll hear the spark. CDI's require very little power to create a spark. They're highly efficient.

*edit* I'm mistaken, the bike doesn't have a CDI.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/12/13 at 08:34:30

It doesnt even have to be spinning sp slow its obvious the battery is down.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by verslagen1 on 03/12/13 at 08:40:03

Next time you want to do some experimenting... regulate the voltage down to 10v and see if it will start.

From experience, many have found that it doesn't. spark is just not hot enough, but it spins fine.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by spacepirates on 03/12/13 at 09:15:17

I had a weak (old) battery in mine, and had the hardest time trying to start it in the cold. You could hear it crank but it wouldn't catch. Had to push start it in the mornings. In the evenings it was fine once it warmed up. Put a big crank in it and it it starts right up.

My experience: a weak battery will turn over the engine but it won't start the bike.

as for the question as to why your bike only starts when you release the starter, my only guess would be wonky electronics, but that is purely a guess. maybe your CDI is mismatched to your engine? or something weird is going on with your battery? You can also hook a charger up to your battery and try and start the bike with the charger still hooked up (if your charger supports that).

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/12/13 at 09:16:34

What happens if you Start to hit the start button, but change your mind?

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Demin on 03/12/13 at 09:21:12

36292F2835320333033B29256E5C0 wrote:

What happens if you Start to hit the start button, but change your mind?

If it's spinning,sometimes it starts.I do think it's the battery.....But it also seems like I have a timing problem.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Charon on 03/12/13 at 10:01:16

These bikes do NOT have a CDI ignition. They have a transistorized ignition, in which a switching transistor replaces breaker points. The ignition box contains some other electronics which will not operate without enough voltage. Those electronics control the timing and drive the switching transistor. It is entirely possible to have enough voltage/current to drive the starter motor and still not have enough voltage to make the ignition work.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Cavi Mike on 03/13/13 at 03:07:26

I stand corrected.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Demin on 03/13/13 at 14:09:28

Put the charger on,starts up.....Did a charging test,only putting out 12.5 volts.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by HondaLavis on 03/13/13 at 19:17:15

775C55465B5A340 wrote:

THIS +1 Sounds like you're at the perfect voltage: You have enough power to turn the starter, but just short enough not to fire off the ignition simultaneously. As soon as you open the starter circuit, you have power available to get a fat SPARK! And off she goes, as soon as you let go of the button.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by ToesNose on 03/14/13 at 04:49:04

657661607F7274767D22130 wrote:

Two weeks ago the weather turned nice and I decided to take the bike out, unfortunately the fuse on my tender blew most likely from a storm we had the week prior. The voltmeter gauge read 10V on the nose, but although it spun the starter strong it just wasn't enought to get her going. Just to add to Verssy's experiment data ;)

On the plus side I was able to roll her down my driveway, pop the clutch and bring her to life...........Got to ride and picked up replacement fuses on the way home for the tender ;D

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Demin on 03/20/13 at 04:22:37

Ok....Not charging.Changed out the voltage reg from my '86...no help.Did continuity test on stator...ok.Haven't done the no load test yet.But I would think if cont.test was ok,it should be working....right? :-/

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Digger on 03/23/13 at 11:42:30

07060E0A0D630 wrote:

Hi Den,

Well, the book says that the charging system should, with a fully charged battery, the dimmer switch on HI, and @ an engine speed of 5000 RPM, put out 14.0 - 15.5 V (inclusive, as measured between the battery terminals).

If you fail this test (and, I think you've indicated above that you already have failed same), the next test to perform is the AC generator no-load test.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Demin on 03/26/13 at 13:16:27

Did the no load test.Looks like the stator took a dump.
I know we've been down this road alot,BUT.I'm finding in every place I look the stator is the same for all models.Including Suzuki fiche
2 sides put out 100V+,1 side only putting 80-90's out.

Title: Re: Starting question
Post by Demin on 04/13/13 at 05:14:43

Found out I had two wires coming through the rubber,out of the side cover that were frayed and touching.For the heck of it I used the '87 rotor/flywheel and I put in the '02 stator and pickup and it works fine.Charging 13-13.5 at idle,twist the throttle and it goes up.Starts right up,less kickback and now I get our lovely POOF out of the exhaust.