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Message started by Bubba on 03/07/13 at 09:56:01

Title: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Bubba on 03/07/13 at 09:56:01

Not really an oil war, I use the white bottle Rotella from Walmart and have been pretty happy with it. I have a couple of vintage 49cc mopeds and I've been thinking about running the Amsoil Saber as premix in it.
Does anyone have any experience with it? Supposedly, you can run it a 100:1 instead of 50:1 and from a moped forum I'm a member of they all LOVE it!
Overall, Amsoil seems to require that you become a "perferred" customer and all that BS before you can order it though... :-?

Anyway, what say you of great experience and wisdom than I?
Thanks!
P.S. not really trying to start and oil war but if anyone knows if they make something for our little thumper that meets all the JASO requirements that would be helpful too!

Title: Re: amsoil...possible oil war?
Post by Dave on 03/07/13 at 10:17:15

The Amsoil Saber at 100:1 caused a huge oil war on a chainsaw forum that I visit. Most of the flaming came from people that didn't use it and had no basis of fact, and I felt the same way at first. The thought of using only half of what most engine manufacturers require just doesn't make sense.......only after buying and using it did I understand that the oil is much more concentrated.

I originally bought it to use in my trials motorcycle. When I was riding a 2 stroke trials bike in the woods I never got it opened up enough to clean out all the unburned oil, and it would start to drip unburned oil out the exhaust (spooge). I was mixing at 80:1 with good synthetic oils which is the recommended ratio for a trials bike....but the woods riding prevented any fast riding. Trials bikes don't run at speed much and if the oil mixture is too rich the unburned oil builds up in the crankcase - then when you crack the throttle to climb a hill the unburned oil can come up in a big burst......and the engine doesn't make good power when you need it most.

When I switched to the Amsoil Saber I ask the national importer and 5 time national trials champion about the Saber - and he said it was a great oil and they even ran it at 125:1 in a trials bike and it worked fine. I did use the Amsoil Saber in my trials bike at 100:1 and it did cut down a bit on the smoke and drippy oil.

What I found out is the Saber Oil is much thicker than most 2 cycle oils, and it has less "solvent" in it and more oil......so the 100:1 mix ratio doesn't really mean much when comparing oils......only when measuring. The oil is too thick to be used in injection systems - and it is only suitable for pre-mix. I imagine that Amsoil would sell a lot more of it if they added some solvents and told you to mix it at 50:1 like other synthetic oils.......but they have other oils that fill that need.

After I sold my 2 stoke trials bike and bought a 4 stroke, I kept using the Saber in my yard equipment (leaf blower, weed wacker, tiller) and it works just fine. I can't say that it works any better than the Maxima or Amsoil Eliminator that I mix at 50:1 for my chainsaws........but I have been using it since 2008 and everythng still runs fine. If you buy a quality synthetic oil from Amsoil, Klotz, Maxima, etc.......you are likely to never have an oil problem if you mixture is right and your fuel is good.....and you don;t develop an air leak and run lean. Most 2 stroke failures are not oil related - they are fuel/air mixture problems.

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Oldfeller on 03/07/13 at 10:28:35

I only used one two stroke bike (RD 400) and that was so long ago the information isn't really relevant any more. Back then Klotz was the only synthetic two stroke oil, period. And that was what I used. Your moped forums are much better sources for current information on two stroke oils in that use than we are.

JASO 4 stroke and Amisol, well Amisol puts in too much ZDDP to get any of the JASO MA2 4 stroke ratings now-a-days. Doesn't mean they won't say they "meet or exceed JASO requirements" on the bottle because they do.

JASO limits ZDDP to what, 1,000 PPM as a maximum number in MA2 (our old Savage requires 1,250 PPM as a minimum, going up to 1,850 PPM in some of the older oil products that were around when the bike came out.

We don't list Amisol on the Tech pages because it costs WAY WAY too much money -- there are even stronger ZDDP oils from Redline that can cost low enough at times to make our listing, but they come and go according to supply (price goes up and down).

Folks do criticize Amisol for their pricing structure and flat say you can buy as good or better oils from Redline for a lot less money.

I like Redline because you can buy it from Amazon for as low a price as you can find it anywhere, and if you do the Prime thing shipping can be free IF it is located in a Amazon warehouse when you go shopping that is. Gotta watch that prime stuff -- Amazon will tell you if it is being shipped from their warehouse (free) or somebody else's warehouse (costs you).

Note: Redline also sells 2 stroke oils on Amazon too. You can get dozens (to hundreds) of feed back posts from the folks that used it on any given Amazon product.

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Bubba on 03/07/13 at 14:43:05

Thanks for the input...I went ahead and ordered a quart of the saber 2-stroke oil...pretty pricey with shipping but it should get me through about 25 gals of premix which is way more than I'll ever ride my mopeds this summer... ;D

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Cavi Mike on 03/07/13 at 15:48:29

2D0E0604070E0E0710620 wrote:

I'm curious - do you pronounce it am-i-sol? Because the name is amsoil not amisol.

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Serowbot on 03/07/13 at 17:39:29

I pronounce it,.. expensive... ;D...

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Dave on 03/07/13 at 18:16:23

I bought mine at the local motorcycle shop that carries Amsoil. They had to order the Saber.....but it was not any more expensive than the other 2 stroke synthetic oils.

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Dave on 03/08/13 at 06:14:25

I moved this from the RSD to the Cafe.....it is not really a thread related to the Savage.

You comment about being expensive......a while back I did some math and I was surprised how expensive "2 stoke" pre-mix really is.

The Maxima K2 oil that I use in my chainsaw is $ 17.99 a litre....or $ 0.56 an ounce.

For a 50:1 fuel/oil ratio it takes 2.6 oz. of oil.....or $ 1.46 worth of oil.

For every gallon of 2 stroke mix you have $ 1.46 of oil and $ 3.70 worth of gasoline at this morning price.....or $ 5.16 a gallon. :o
Cutting and burning wood for heat is still cheaper than buying propane however.

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Bubba on 03/08/13 at 06:21:41

True, but even if I take into account the shipping for my Amsoil using it at a 100:1 mix is half the price of that.
For racers that have bigger engines and lower fuel mileage it can be quite a savings, even at an 80:1 mix
For me it really doesn't matter...my peds are slightly modified stock and they get around 80mpg anyway...of course, they only go about 35mph... ;D

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Charon on 03/08/13 at 07:35:06

I have a Sea-Doo Challenger LE boat with a Rotax two-stroke engine. It specifies a special synthetic oil (NOT TC-W3). Last price check, last year, the oil cost over $50 per gallon. The boat uses an oil injection system, so I don't know the actual mix. Nor do I know of an equivalent oil. Best I can figure it costs me at least $2 per hour of engine operation, at light throttle.

The special oil is supposedly required to keep the variable exhaust "blades" from coking up and sticking. TC-W3 oils, it is claimed, will cause those exhaust "blades" to stick before too long.

Naturally enough, neither the requirement for nor the price of the oil was mentioned when I bought the boat.

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Bubba on 03/08/13 at 07:55:33

yeah, Amsoil Saber is definitely not for injectors from what I hear...

not sure what the specs on yer boat would be but this is what Amsoil has for marine use...35 bucks a gallon....

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/2-stroke/hp-marine-synthetic-2-stroke-oil/

I've no idea if it's any better tho' and it would be a bummer to experiment with a pretty boat like that!

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Jiggyfly on 03/10/13 at 01:00:05

I raced a Honda RS125......& a Suzuki RM125 super moto & a Kawasaki KX65......

Motul, Motul, Motul......

Price? Add race fuel at $125 for a 5 gal can! :)

Title: Re: Amsoil... Two Stroke Oil War
Post by Face on 03/10/13 at 16:34:09

57747A7A647B71641D0 wrote:

Price? Add race fuel at $125 for a 5 gal can! :)

Yup! Running 110 octane at a 4:1 with alchohol in my Banshee. With what the fuel costs, the price of a good 2-stroke oil isn't really a concern. Even mixed 40:1.

For what it's worth I prefer Maxima Castor 927. I'ts been my 2-stroke oil of choice for 14 years with great results.