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Message started by fastbub on 02/05/13 at 02:49:03

Title: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by fastbub on 02/05/13 at 02:49:03

I was reading through the cam chain tensioner check procedure and saw a quick post from someone who actually just tweaked th shape of the guide effectively taking up more slack in the chain and pushing the plunger back in about 10mm or so.

Can anybody confirm that this is a good way of getting more life out of the chain and tensioner?

It looks simple enough. I will likely just buy the modified tensioner but I was curious.

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by Serowbot on 02/05/13 at 04:37:49

I'm not familiar with than one,.. but... the main advantage, to me, isn't the extension of the second hole... (nice bonus)...
... it's the pin... the pin prevents the adjuster from, leaving the housing, and causing ensuing catastrophe...

I love that pin... :-*...
... (and they say, money can't buy happiness)... ;D...

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by spacepirates on 02/05/13 at 06:24:21

Not having read the post you're talking about, nor having a clear idea of what you mean, I'll toss my opinion in the mix: No, it is not a good idea to essentially turn a guide into a tensioner. The existing tensioner was made to apply tension to the cam chain, the guides were meant to keep the chain in line and not smack about. I would think that using a guide to apply tension would quickly wear out the guide.

But, like I said, I didn't read the post, and this is just my "shoot-from-the-hip" thought process on it.

Like Serowbot said, a HUGE advantage to the verslavy tensioner mod is it prevents catastrophic damage caused by a plunger falling out. It also increases your chain wear life by double, which is kinda nice.

Long story short: my opinion is to tension with the tensioner and guide with the guides, but if you're feeling ballsy, you do what you want and let us know how it turns out. I've been proven wrong before, and I've done plenty of stupid things to save a couple bucks (not all of which turned out bad at all).

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by MiCTLaN on 02/05/13 at 06:28:11

This post? http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1172586621/90

My take on it... if I'm getting that deep into the process, I'm going to be more likely to just replace the guide than to bend the old one and hope that makes a difference. I figure with the amount of tension that is on the guide that it's likely to straighten out before long. I would also be concerned that bending might lead toward breaking, and I'd rather not have loose chunks of guide flopping around in the spinny bits of my engine. ;D

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by verslagen1 on 02/05/13 at 07:14:23

24202A3D252827490 wrote:

Good take on it. The steel in this guide is pretty stiff, will take a good effort to bend. So flattening back out wouldn't be my concern.

However, that's pretty thick plastic molded on there and it does age crack after a while. There's been only 1 case reported of this plastic shedding off and clogging the oil pump. And that was with an unbent guide. So I don't like the idea of bending one as you might end up with a pump full of plastic.

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by fastbub on 02/05/13 at 13:56:02

These all sound like good points. I was just curious as I aleays like to look at other ways of doing things. Sometimes simple ideas/fixes are great (and cheap) but I know sometimes they are just that....too cheap and simple to really solve the problem.

I see that the pin can give you peace of mind, but I would think that extending the plunger to have a second hole, or bending the guide would push it back in far enought that you wouldn't have to worry about it for a long while.

Also this bike might see 1000 miles a year since it won't be terribly comfortable. Mostly jaunts around town, cruise nights, a couple of organized charity rides etc.

I haven't checked mine yet, but I have 9000 miles on it and am going to check it soon when I get to the point of putting the motor back in the back and actually am ready to ride it. I would think if I were at 18mm+ and I extended te plunger to have a second hole I would be comfortable riding it for quite a while.

I think that the modified tensioner is an awesome product and a turnkey bolt on solution. I will probably get one soon. I also like to do things myself and have the capability to weld on an extension and am considering doing that. I don't have the capability to mill a slot and pin it myself so I am just weighing out my options. I am doing a pretty comprehensive build on my bike ( hardtail, custom tank and mounts, seat and mounts, exhaust, foot clutch/jockey shift lowered front end and complete re-wire) I am not ready to mess with the motor yet but will need to do a tensioner mod soon I am sure as well as re jet for the exhaust

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by oldNslow on 02/05/13 at 14:29:51

Just my two cents. Considering the amount of work you are planning to do to your bike if I were you I'd just take the adjuster off and send it to verslagen1 and let him do the mod to it. I just sent him mine(the plunger was out 16mm with 1000miles) had it back in a couple of weeks, put it back in and I'm not going to worry about that issue again. His work is first rate and as far as I'm concerned is the definitive answer to the cam chain life problem.

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by MiCTLaN on 02/05/13 at 15:16:33

5D63626E7C60610F0 wrote:

if I were you I'd just take the adjuster off and send it to verslagen1 and let him do the mod to it.

I'm inclined to agree, especially if you have the engine out of the bike right now... one less thing to worry about, and certainly worth the price imho.

My bike had over 23k on it when I put the Verslavy in it, mainly as a stopgap so I didn't have to go through all of the trouble of replacing guides and chain on a new (to me) bike. I figured now when it's at the point that I need to do the guides and chain I can go through all of that trouble, and get that much more life out of the next chain by reusing the Verslavy.

Assuming, of course, that it's a good idea to do so... I don't know if I've seen anyone mention reusing a modded tensioner with a new chain, with the pin in place the only thing I can imagine wearing much is the spring, and I somewhat doubt that will become an issue.

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by Doug B on 02/05/13 at 15:37:06

I am sleep deprived at the moment - however - correct me if I am wrong - oldNslow : your valvetrain(plunger) has 1000 miles on it and its out 16mm ? - and 18mm(max) is the point where we should do something ? verslagen1 - brand new(as I aquired my bike in August 2012) how far do you think the plunger was extended ?

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by oldNslow on 02/05/13 at 15:52:31

Typo, sorry. That's 10,000 miles. My engine is a 2006. When I put the modified adjuster in I first tried the original hole but the stop pin was almost at the end of the slot so I moved the bolt to the second hole. The plunger looks to be about three clicks out on the ratchet. Should have taken a picture but it's too late. I'm not planning on taking the cover back off any time soon. :)

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by Digger on 02/05/13 at 18:52:45

4A454C2E0 wrote:

11mm?

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by Doug B on 02/08/13 at 11:53:19

Digger - thanks - I just read your response - 11mm - on what do you(or verslagen1/or anyone else) base your answer and at what point(mileage or otherwise) would you suggest physically/visually checking this measurement ? :-/

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by oldNslow on 02/09/13 at 08:42:22

Quote:

at what point(mileage or otherwise) would you suggest physically/visually checking this measurement ?

This is just my opinion based on reading most of the cam-chain posts on the forum, and my experience with one bike.

On a bike bought new I think it would be safe to go 15,000 miles or so before taking a look assuming the engine dosen't suddenly start to rattle.

On a used bike,especially one that you don't know how it was maintained by the previous owner or owners, I'd take a look sooner.
Like I said in my previous post the plunger on mine was out 16mm at 10,000. I likely could have ridden like that for another few thousand miles before doing anything but I decided to put the modified adjuster in while the bike was down for the winter anyway instead of waiting.

It's not that big of a deal to take the cover off and look. verslagen1 has excellent instructions in the tech section. I didn't even have to replace the gasket. It stayed stuck to the case and the cover came off clean. A little Hondabond around the oil passages was all I needed when I put it back together.

Even if I had pulled the cover a found that I didn't need to do anything,I figured the work was worth the trouble just for peace of mind.

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by A-Bolt on 02/09/13 at 10:46:33

Just took a look at mine. Yep, 10,000 miles and its at 16mm. The plunger falls out at 22mm?

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by verslagen1 on 02/09/13 at 10:52:23

yes soon after 22mm

but if you going to send it to me, best do it around 18mm

after that it start ovaling.

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by Digger on 02/09/13 at 18:03:14

6E61680A0 wrote:

....verslagen1 - brand new(as I aquired my bike in August 2012) how far do you think the plunger was extended ?

08252B2B293E4C0 wrote:

11mm?

28272E4C0 wrote:

Ooopers!

I thought you had actually checked the plunger extension and were quizzing us. I thought it was a contest! I'm so confused.... :-[

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by Oldfeller on 02/09/13 at 22:32:00

No, this whole thread has been converted to a classical "maybe -- what if" thread. As such maybe it should end about now.

;D

The original poster understands the purpose of the mod but was simply seeking a way to know when it is time to do it.

He also was asking about rebending the guides, which I do do and have seen some minor lasting benefit but not enough to avoid a Slaggy extra hole. I did see enough benefit to get me back to a zero origin on the extra hole (bending only took out the guide surface wear effect, that's about all)

Mileage is still the one good way to know when you have to do the extra hole, you still have to pull the side cover and do your first check at around 15,000 miles (or whenever you need to go in anyway to fix a push rod length if that is earlier).

13,000 miles mebbe isn't too early if circumstances work out that way, it just gives you more wiggle room before the ovaling of the aluminium housing starts. Earlier than that, you may not have enough room for the extra hole yet.

Your "fail" check is always when the cam chain slapping noises start.

Simple enough, original poster's question has been answered plenty.

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by Serowbot on 02/09/13 at 23:18:49

I bought a bike once,.. with less than 4k miles on it,.. and it was 23mm out on the cam plunger...
My personal bike, was 21mm out at 24k miles...
(both,.. somewhat past the safe area)... and both got a Versy modded plunger...

I believe it is very dependent on whether you do short, errand rides, or longer (25 mile +) rides... and, secondarily, the frequency, and quality, of oil changes...
...(I would imagine also,.. the amount of hard accel and decel.... excepting that,.. I'm sure I do that a great deal more than an average noobie rider, and mine lasted for 24k miles,... against a noob, female rider, with only 4k miles, practically ruining one)...
Unless,... my 97' has a better quality chain than an 03'?..
:-?...
...(I think It just took a mental Australian "walkabout"...)... ;D...
That's what comes of typing ahead of my thoughts...:-?...

Title: Re: Bending Cam chain guide
Post by verslagen1 on 02/10/13 at 08:59:23

I've sold verslavies to people whose bike has gone tap happy at... I think as early as 5k miles.

So be aware, teach your ankles to listen and get a mech's steth and listen to the engines happy sounds before she gets ill.