|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Lithium Ion Battery Help /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1359344880 Message started by Bobber Fett on 01/27/13 at 19:48:00 |
|
Title: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Bobber Fett on 01/27/13 at 19:48:00 Fellow Savages, I've been intrigued by the Li-Ion batteries for about a year now, and swore that I'd replace my sealed battery with one when it died. Well, I threw my battery on the charger and it only holds about 11.91 V; the time has come. Since people have been using them for a while, I'm hoping that a year later there might be more information available about these (seemingly) wonderful batteries. What I'm hoping to do is: 1.) make a list of all of the options of what companies offer them and the cost of each. Looking through the forums, I've seen ballistic and shorai. Are there any others that I've missed? 2.) What are the experiences with the batteries? Any issues with them so far? Any appear better than others? I kinda just wanna get some talk generated (not usually a problem on this forum ;D) Thanks ladies and gents! --Bobber |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Smokestack on 01/28/13 at 05:09:13 I know some sportbike guys that swear by the Ballistics. I haven't looked into any other manufacturers, 'cuz if I get one it'll be a Ballistic, if for no other reason than that 3 year warranty. Good enough for me. One of my friends has a GSX-R that sat for 2 years with dirty gas and oil, but fired right up after he cleaned the carbs out. He had a Ballistic. my .02c. |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Charon on 01/28/13 at 06:11:19 Think Boeing 787 Dreamliner... |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Gyrobob on 01/28/13 at 06:19:09 163D34273A3B550 wrote:
yeah,.. THAT's really analogous! ::) |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Gyrobob on 01/28/13 at 06:27:50 My buddy in the Double RYCA Build used a Ballistic li-ion since his lead-acid battery crapped out while we were building the bikes. It is impressive how much more cranking power they have than the standard 10 pound lump of lead. His is about the size of can of spam and weighs about 2 pounds. One of the upgrades I will do for my RYCA bike is to remove the side covers and all they stuff they cover so there is just open space behind the motor. The li-ion battery will fit in the tail section,... or maybe I'll move down under the forward part of the swingarm. |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Charon on 01/28/13 at 07:42:43 5F616A777A777A180 wrote:
yeah,.. THAT's really analogous! ::)[/quote] I guess you are right. There is no analogy at all. Except that the Dreamliner was designed to use Lithium Ion batteries for their high storage capacity in relatively light weight and small size, precisely the same reason people talk about using them on motorcycles. That's the same reason the Chevy Volt was designed to use Lithium Ion batteries. And the reason the Airbus A350 (on the drawing boards) is being designed to use them. Nope, I suppose there is no analogy. |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by perajani on 01/28/13 at 08:02:08 I found this one from this forum, still have not tried it. http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z359/perajani/Winter%202012-2013%20Part2/IMG_1494_zps1a01242d.jpg The size and weight difference is huge. |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by paulmarshall on 01/28/13 at 09:49:21 I put this in my Savage some weeks ago, and never missed a beat. :) |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Gyrobob on 01/28/13 at 10:26:49 1E353C2F32335D0 wrote:
yeah,.. THAT's really analogous! ::)[/quote] I guess you are right. There is no analogy at all. Except that the Dreamliner was designed to use Lithium Ion batteries for their high storage capacity in relatively light weight and small size, precisely the same reason people talk about using them on motorcycles. That's the same reason the Chevy Volt was designed to use Lithium Ion batteries. And the reason the Airbus A350 (on the drawing boards) is being designed to use them. Nope, I suppose there is no analogy.[/quote] Glad you understand, now. I've been in aviation for a while, and have ridden motorcycles for a while. It is not very hard to see the different requirements for a 200 million dollar .8mach airliner vs a 2 thousand dollar .1mach motorcycle. The batteries on an MD-ll (larger than a 787) are about the size of two Honda Civic batteries. If the situation were analogous, we'd be using a AAA mini-penlight battery in a Savage. I'll admit, though, the advantages of lithium ion batteries are significant. That's why I'll be switching in a while. My RYCA bike will be down for a month or so while RYCA respokes the rear wheel, so I'll probably use that time to handle a few of those projects like setting up the battery. |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by verslagen1 on 01/28/13 at 11:50:17 634841524F4E200 wrote:
yeah,.. THAT's really analogous! ::)[/quote] I guess you are right. There is no analogy at all. Except that the Dreamliner was designed to use Lithium Ion batteries for their high storage capacity in relatively light weight and small size, precisely the same reason people talk about using them on motorcycles. That's the same reason the Chevy Volt was designed to use Lithium Ion batteries. And the reason the Airbus A350 (on the drawing boards) is being designed to use them. Nope, I suppose there is no analogy.[/quote] The application-failure/success should not be ignored for all the applications. there are a number of laptop failures, cellphone failures as well. The dreamliner failure I would take with a grain of salt, it's a new application and most likely highly stressed. ::) real life use probably did not equate to lab tests. They'll have to adjust to make it work. But here, analogy not needed. You have numerous m/c's converting from lead to LiPo. How many have burst into flames? How many have failed to start? |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/28/13 at 12:04:45 Do you feel drawn to LiPo batteries? Do you find them mystifying & intriguing & desirable? If you cant walk past one on a shelf without Feeling its presence, before you even see it, is that because of LiPo suction? |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Dave on 01/29/13 at 09:41:31 Well I looked at the website for the EarthX batteries, and there are 2 choices for the A size battery. The 6 AH battery is $ 119, and the 12 AH battery is $ 159. Our original equipment lead acid battery is a 14AH battery. The following is from he EarthX website: How does the “EqAh” capacity rating compare to lead-acid Ah ratings? A Lithium battery can use 100% of its storage capability (measured as Amp- Hour, Ah); while a lead-acid battery typically only uses 30%. So a 2Ah Lithium battery has the equivalent capacity to a 6Ah lead-acid. Our ratings are shown as the lead-acid equivalent (EqAh) Since they are listing their batteries "as the lead-acid equivalent", the 12AH battery is probably the best one to get if you want a similar sized capacity. The 6AH may work OK if you ride only in warm weather and never have to crank for long. (What is the experience of people who have used the 6AH one.....and for how long have you used it?) The LiOn battery is supposed to have a very long life.....unless you completely discharge or overcharge it.....then it is toast! |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by paulmarshall on 01/29/13 at 10:36:37 774C4156474B50564D454857240 wrote:
Hi Dave, I brought the ETX12A. The Cold Crank Amps (CCA) is 120 which is lower than our standard batt, But have had no problems yet.If you want more CCA you have to go up a size. When I first looked at this I too was worried that the Batt wouldn't crank in cold weather. Lately I have been cranking without the Decomp and the Batt cranks no prob. If space isn't a issue I would go to a bigger Batt with more CCA,However I have had no issues to date using the ETX12A. |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Badass94Cad on 01/30/13 at 10:01:51 For those who have swapped to a smaller battery and mounted it to the swingarm, any pics? :) |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Dave on 01/30/13 at 10:26:50 1F3C393C2E2E64691E3C395D0 wrote:
The only ones that come to mind are here: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1259644714 |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by fascar228 on 02/20/13 at 03:00:36 Hello All, Can someone shed light on the charging mechanics for a lithium battery...as i understand they cannot be charged like a lead acid battery. So in a bike or car the charging system is different and the charging system for lithium batteries is different. How do you make the 2 different setups to merge...is there a separate. circuitry involved. |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Dave on 02/20/13 at 05:18:59 5C5B49595B480808023A0 wrote:
The EarthX battery that I bought has the circuitry built into the battery that equalizes the charges in the cells. The Ballistic Battery suggests that for maximum life - you should purchase their charger/equilizer and use it to equalize the cells periodically. I believe that few people actually do that. I chose the EarthX as it can be treated lke a normal battery - with the caveate that any/all Lithium Batteries will fail if they are run flat or overcharged. Here is what EarthX says on their website: Lithium batteries are fundamentally different than lead-acid batteries. The lithium cells inside the 12V battery need electronics to monitor and balance the voltage/charge of the individual cells. Other companies sell a balancing charger, which you have to plugin periodically to “top off” and balance the cells. Inside every one of our batteries is a microprocessor Battery Management System (BMS) that monitors the charge level of each cell and balances the charge when needed, protecting the cells from overcharge or over-discharge. |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Gyrobob on 02/20/13 at 17:25:12 I'd like to build on this thought: "I chose the EarthX as it can be treated lke a normal battery - with the caveate that any/all Lithium Batteries will fail if they are run flat or overcharged." ANY battery will fail if run flat or overcharged. |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by uigiroux on 04/01/14 at 19:10:19 0A292C293B3B717C0B292C480 wrote:
I got the Earth X ETX12A, had a custom box made from sheet metal and am just am ready to finish the move, but I'm currently trying to find cable long enough to reach it so I have it just mounted in the stock box. As for it being on the swing arm, my box fits with enough space inside to put padding all around it, and a little extra space for extra cables. I mounted it down there and put the bike on my jack and removed the suspension and it clears the swing arm just fine. You just want to make sure you don't make your box so it mounts further back then the bottom of the ledge, and for space up front I made the box a bit take so I could have holes large enough to fit over the welded on bolts cut into the box so it basically mounts from the bottom, and is also held in place up top. I'm on my phone right now so I can't post pics right now but I'll be posting lots soon to show what I've done. I've gotta say, even though it wasn't wired yet, it looked great down there, and I seem to be the only one who's done a fully enclosed box, but I think for the sake of protecting the battery and hiding the cables (and I've painted it gloss black like the frame) it's really worth taking the extra step which really wasn't that much. Also I spent months going over which battery to get and while the Earth X 2 year warranty isn't as good as the 3 year from Ballistic, this battery has a built in battery management system (BMS) which allows you to use any normal charger, unlike all the others requiring you to purchase their $50+ special chargers. The ETX12A is $169 but I Googled it and found a 10% off coupon so I got it for $153 no tax and free shipping and that's it, no special charger to buy. I think that along with the built in BMS and the 10% really sealed the deal, but even at $169 I'd still go with that one. Safest overall choice and very good warranty. PICS COMING SOON! |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by ToesNose on 04/02/14 at 04:25:49 Hey Uigiroux sounds like a nice set up, looking forward to the pics :) |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by shorty on 04/02/14 at 05:22:22 I installed a Shorai 14 amp for $120 (Amazon) moved it to the muffler bracket/shelf ... removed the entire stock battery box ... looks clean |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by shorty on 04/02/14 at 05:31:23 5B5C4E5E5C4F0F0F053D0 wrote:
there are two types of lithium batteries.. lithium polymer (LI-PO) lithium iron (LI-FE) ..the LI-FE is more accepting of automotive charging systems ..the LI-PO is slightly more powerful & lighter but dangerous without specific charging parameters the LI-FE chemistry is usually marketed for consumer applications |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by seedubs1 on 04/02/14 at 07:57:38 Typically, when I use 18650 Li-Ion's, I get batteries that are "protected." That means they have circuitry built into the battery to keep it from overcharging or undercharging. If it senses over/undercharge, it essentially puts the battery into "protect" mode. As I understand it, the Li-Ion batts for bikes have multiple cells. So they also need to have the cells balanced. EarthX is the only batt that has this balancing circuit built in. For others, you have to buy a separate circuitry module and periodically recharge the batt with the module hooked up to balance the cells. However, there's not much mention of a protection circuit for under/overcharging being used for any of the motorcycle batteries. Does anyone have/know of a module that we can wire into our bike (kind of like a regulator/rectifier is wired in) that will: 1) Act as a protection circuit for over/under charge 2) Balance the Li-Ion cells |
|
Title: Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Post by Quimrider on 08/17/16 at 08:06:12 I bought a Battery Tender model BTL14A240C (https://www.amazon.com/BTL14A240C-BATTERY-TENDER-Lithium-Iron/dp/B01IFF7KOA/) from Amazon.com in spring 2015. I just used some wood cut up and painted to use as spacers in the battery box. Someday I'll fab up a custom battery box. I've used Lithium batteries for several years on my other motorcycle. I believe this is just an 8 cell lithium iron phosphate battery (4s2p) The thing to keep in mind about these lithium batteries being sold for motorcycles is that they are significantly smaller capacity batteries. The reason you can get away with this is the lithium packs are slightly higher voltage and can put out significantly higher current than lead-acid batteries. Short bursts of high current is what is needed for starting and what these lithium packs are ideal for. Also if you do a lot of cold weather riding Lithium batteries are not for you. They can work but you have to "wake up" the battery. I'm not sure but I believe it's putting a load on a cold lithium battery heats up the battery by the resistance in the cell. Once warmed up the cell starts to work again. Here is me trying to start my Vulcan 500 on a cold winter day with an 8 cell lithium iron phosphate pack (4s2p): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHSbL-cBUFM And a ridiculous extreme of trying to start it in -13F conditions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPXG5_LQcYM I might have been able to eventually start it but I gave up when my bare fingers started to literally freeze. Over the last almost year and a half I have not needed to do anything to the battery except for 2 weeks after I got it when I stoopidly turned the key to park (tail light on) instead of off and completely drained the battery. I figured the battery was toast but I jump started it from a car and drove 3 miles down the road to dinner. Much to my surprise that little distance was enough of a charge that I could start the bike after dinner. I rode home and charged it briefly with a standard lead acid charger to get some charge back into it. FYI you typically don't want to use a lead acid charger since it can easily over charge and ruin a lithium battery. I'm sure that little mistake shortened the battery's life but it's still cranking strong. It's my understanding that the cells used in these batteries are the same used in power tools and tend to be much more tolerant of over charging/draining too low compared to other lithium batteries such as Lithium polymer (LiPO) often used in hobby RC applications. LiPO are very easy to destroy if over charged or drained too low. I'm sure occasionally balancing cells will extend the batteries life but in my experience it isn't absolutely necessary. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |