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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> A little plug work /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1357589097 Message started by verslagen1 on 01/07/13 at 12:04:57 |
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Title: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 01/07/13 at 12:04:57 A rare bird, a black double ringed aluminus rtvless headpluguli Pretty bird,... pretty bird... -Serow http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/Plug/plug1.jpg I'm looking for a red one. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by v-pilot on 01/07/13 at 12:13:16 What?!! A headpluguli...I'll take one in any color! No...seriously, I will |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by rfw2003 on 01/07/13 at 12:35:10 You got any specs on it, I might be able to reproduce it. I am in the process of setting up a small hobby machine shop here at the house. Something like that would be an easy to duplicate item. My small shop will have a lathe to start with then coming later a small benchtop mill. R.F. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 01/07/13 at 13:58:34 It's in development. So far, day 1. not leaking. 8-) |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by PerrydaSavage on 01/07/13 at 14:01:10 Outstanding work verslagen! Well done! 8-) |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by ZAR on 01/07/13 at 15:33:18 Versy I'm guessing that little jewell will cure the "pluggum leakus" issues? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 01/07/13 at 15:44:11 617A693B0 wrote:
I'm hoping so. worse case is you'll have to replace 2 standard o-rings rather than that oem custom plug slathered in rtv. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Chris Roth on 01/07/13 at 16:57:23 I would give one of these a fine home as well if they go into development |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by ZAR on 01/07/13 at 17:17:47 362B302C7022312A440 wrote:
Likewise I'd like to get on the list of most favored in case a few acorns fall off the mighty oak! |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by JBK on 01/07/13 at 18:34:59 go ahead and sign me up for a baker's dozen |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Cavi Mike on 01/07/13 at 19:11:34 So I'm assuming there's no pressure where that plug is? That's what I'm wondering, too... is top top tall enough to be held down by the head cover?... -Serow No oil pressure, some air pressure due to breathing. -V1 |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Digger on 01/07/13 at 19:46:49 Ver, If you DO notice some seepage as time goes by, might I suggest a smidge of Permatex® Ultra Rubber Gasket Sealant & Dressing (http://www.permatex.com/products/product-categories/gasketing/gasket-sealants/permatex-ultra-rubber-gasket-sealant-dressing-detail) on the o-rings? FWIW, I've used this this stuff with great success on the old-style plug. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Boofer on 01/07/13 at 21:11:35 Vers, You're making your bike into "Butt jewelry". ;D Beautiful. I've heard for years the best way to riches is improving on someone else's idea, so I'm drawing up a plexiglass head cover to show off your work. ;D Great job, as usual. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by mikey2004 on 01/08/13 at 18:24:45 if you get to selling this part please let me know. i want and need.. lol. michael.james.glenn@gmail.com |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by paulmarshall on 01/09/13 at 10:39:53 Very nice indeed :) |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by ralfyguy on 01/09/13 at 18:54:10 I miss my lathe... |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/10/13 at 05:40:25 I think I could build that if I had a good drill press., |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 01/10/13 at 12:00:19 0A151314090E3F0F3F07151952600 wrote:
Can you chuck a 1" bar stock? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/10/13 at 14:42:15 Yep.I'd drill & tap & run a bolt in it, build a "tail stock" for the bottom end , fake up a "tool stand" & get some tool steel & shape it up to hold an O-ring, Yea, gimme a late 60's Craftsman 3/4 horse drill press with the T'Bolt plate & I could do that. FWIW, for practicality's sake, time required to build up the setup I could probably get a machinist to do it on his lunch break for $20.00 & a 12 pack,, & Id be ahead. But, in a pinch, I do believe I could make that happen.,., |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by ZAR on 01/10/13 at 18:39:28 I was thinking a feller could do the same thing with a wood lathe and a piece of Osage Orange(aka hedge orange or hedge apple). That stuff is like iron and lasts forever. Just ask anyone that's tried to cut the stuff. One cut with a chainsaw and the chain is already dull! |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 12/16/13 at 10:50:42 Update to a long idle thread. 1st prototype using standard o-ring material initially sealed well and lasted about 10 months before it started leaking. Since the original design wasn't made to my specifications I was limited to using only 1 o-ring. And because that did work w/out issue till the o-ring let go, I'm revising the design to be a single o-ring. I have hi-temp O-rings on order and will replace it with the new design over x-mas. One concern I have, And I'm sure if it has any impact. Having had several had several of these plugs in my hands and seeing the wear patterns they caused on the cover... when loose these things rattle. As I'm replacing a rubber over steel plug with one of entirely aluminum... I'm afraid of precisely fitting the plug between the cover and head. I'm thinking of undersizing the head and providing a spring or another o-ring to keep the plug seated and prevent extra wear on the critical o-ring. Whatta you guys think? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Dave on 12/16/13 at 11:09:40 I would think that as the original plug get loose - the huffing of the engine pulses is what is causing the movement. If you had a spring or rubber spacer that compresses the plug into place slightly by resting against the head cover.....the plug would not move. Instead of a solid plug that uses an O-ring or two......what about a plug that has a top and bottom connected by a threaded screw, and it has a rubber seal in between. You install the plug, and then tighten the screw to compress the rubber seal into place? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 12/16/13 at 13:51:48 Probably could be done. If you could tighten it from below with a flex drive, would solve a lot of issues. But over tightening could cause failure. Loosening from vibes or thermal cycling. Having to apply locktite (heat sensitive). Or simply the same issue of burnt rubber. but, if tightened from above, would limit it to having to remove the cover to get access. Why bother. I'm hoping the new O-rings will solve the longevity issue, and in working out your idea, I think I solved mine. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by SimeonC on 12/18/13 at 16:09:04 Yesss I have been having plug problems here lately this would be a great solution to my problem I hoping it goes into production soon.... :o |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by HondaLavis on 12/19/13 at 07:16:36 I would think using just 1 O-ring would allow the plug to vibrate pivoting around that O-ring. Might try a slightly longer plug with 2 or 3 O-rings to stabilize the vibrations as well as seal. If I had to guess, that's why Suzuki's entire plug was covered in rubber. I'm not an engineer; I'm just a volunteer in a soup kitchen serving food for thought. ;) |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 12/19/13 at 12:10:27 I'm going to put a second o-ring under the head of the plug. It'll act as a seal and provide the tolerance take up that's needed. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 12/20/13 at 11:20:47 ZAR, you got mail. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Dave on 12/20/13 at 11:30:11 Versy: I saw that you are going to use a different O-ring that can handle the heat better....but just so others understand that not all store bought O-rings are equal. Most store bought O-rings are Buna-N....and are only good up to 212 degrees and not able to tolerate cylinder head temperatures. This store offers Viton, Teflon and Silicone O-rings that are good to 400 or 450 degrees.....about 100 more than the Savage cylinder head sees. http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=367&zenid=c6df7e9f816c4ea7cb7eb38a1c59bde0 |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by old_rider on 12/20/13 at 11:49:07 How bout posting the specs on that plug so someone with a mill/lathe could fashion up a few? The wife's started leaking last month, I've tightened the nuts fore and aft but it is still seeping, so plug change is in order. I live near a few military bases and lots of gearheads in the shop I used to work in was an aircraft engine shop. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Dane Allen on 12/20/13 at 13:53:54 I will go with the idea I mentioned before and that is to just thread the hole and put in a threaded plug and thread tape/anti-seize/whatever and let the cover keep it from backing out far enough to leak. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 12/20/13 at 14:47:32 63464942664B4B4249270 wrote:
Not that a threaded plug is not a bad idea... not everyone has a 7/8" tap handy. And at $20-30 a pop not something everyone will want to buy. Plus the sanctimonious howls at defiling a stock item. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by raydawg on 12/20/13 at 17:44:56 Ok, not sure if this would work, but, if memory serves me correct, they have boiler plugs you can patch holes in boilers. They come in assorted sizes too. Boilers get hot, depending on the media and intent, so I think they could withstand the motors temp..... I had one I used once when I had to drive 1000 miles to get home after I contracted some diarrhea at a greasy roadside dive..... Once inserted, it held, and boy howdy was the built up back pressure sumtin :o |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 12/20/13 at 19:16:57 did you get a little monkey to pull out the plug for you? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 12/25/13 at 10:43:24 Xmas for my savage... http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/Plug/NewHeadPlug.jpg 2 high temp O-rings like I originally wanted. But 1st seal under the head to provide tolerance take up. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Dave on 12/25/13 at 11:09:57 I like it! I betcha that will outlast the engine! :) |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Oldfeller on 12/25/13 at 11:54:32 When you put the cover lid lid on the lid hits the top of the plug and you compress the top ring, right? Simply can't move up and out of engagement on it or the smaller ID/OD ring either. Thermally, it wouldn't care about expansion as aluminum expands with the temp change and the plug does the same thing at the exact same rate. Neither can move more than the big "O" rings could accommodate easily. Silicone "O" rings are the most heat aging resistant kind, and are more oil degradation resistant than Bunta N rings which are used elsewhere in the bike. Lots of other things in the engine would give up before this sort of plug system would ..... As far as trying them out, simply start supplying them and keep track over the years. Time to first failure will likely be greater than a cam chain life, so you really aren't going to get a simple short test result in any case. Your issues will be operator error (nicked rings, etc) and rough casting machining type edges and such like stuff. Plus folks trying to use this trick with silicone sealant on top of it. ("O" rings only work when put in with a light grease film to ease their insertion, but otherwise it is a dry installation for an "O" ring seal). Lack of a good Instruction Sheet is your main potential failure mode, in other words. ;) Is this your excuse to buy that little CNC lathe you've been thinking about? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 12/25/13 at 12:30:04 7D5E5654575E5E5740320 wrote:
I did get an HF mini lathe for this project. Been wanting to do some small crap for some time. merry xmas to me http://smileyicons.net/s/695.gif |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Digger on 09/26/14 at 11:38:28 52415657484543414A15240 wrote:
Ver, What luck with this? Are you selling these? My head plug just started leaking..... :'( |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 09/26/14 at 12:35:28 644947474552200 wrote:
Well, it hasn't leaked (there) since I've put them in. I'm thinking $15 including shipping. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Digger on 09/26/14 at 13:00:25 Ver, I'm fixin' to bite, here.... How many miles on the plug since you installed it? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 09/26/14 at 14:01:19 0D202E2E2C3B490 wrote:
9k and 2 of those months are the hottest of the year. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/14 at 16:07:46 Having never even Looked at mine when I had the head cover off I couldnt say what the edges that the plug inserts into look like. If theyre chamfered then it ottsta be cake.. If not,, well,, Versy's "Been there, done that",, so,, whats the Obstacle Course look like in there Verslagen? That being oil passage stuff a guy problee shouldnt be creating filings that fall in,, Thats a fine lookin slug O aluminum, Versy. How about a pic of that little lathe? Did ya open it up & study it for needing cleaned up castings or lubed better or anything? Ive heard about guys who did some "Fine Tuning" on theirs & got really good results with those HF things. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Digger on 09/26/14 at 18:51:39 726D6B6C71764777477F6D612A180 wrote:
Jus, I'm guessin' that the bottom o-ring does the sealing and the top one acts as sort of a damper to handle the up and down motion that the plug wants to make. Ver, Is the plug high profile enough such that the head cover contacts it (thus keeping said plug from popping out)? If so, perhaps it'd be a good idea to apply a strip of ultra-high-molecular-weight polyethylene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene) tape to the top of said plug..... Just thinkin' out loud. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/14 at 19:06:41 Sounds like good stuff. Where is it available? Is it as expensive as it sounds like it would be? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 09/26/14 at 20:00:38 476A64646671030 wrote:
The plug uses the cover to hold it down just like the stock plug, but with a little more compression to make the o-ring seal. I thought about putting it on the top side, but then it's only function would be to prevent motion. And I wanted an 2 o-ring seal. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 09/26/14 at 20:06:56 283731362B2C1D2D1D25373B70420 wrote:
There's quite a few posts on cleaning them up and aligning them. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Digger on 09/28/14 at 20:52:10 Ver, you have a PM. I think I'd be a a good candidate to beta test these things. My OEM plug (which was an old-style plug, my bike being a 2001 - and the plug was not leaking) was removed at 600 miles on the bike and then gooped with ThreeBond 1104 and replaced. I pulled that plug at 5200 miles (it was not leaking), then reused it after cleaning it up as good as I could (the 1104 was extremely hard to remove). I gooped it with the 1104 before reinserting. That time, the plug started leaking after only 100 miles (5300 miles). I suspect that I probably damaged same in my futile but vigorous efforts to remove all traces of the 1104 from it. I then swore off of the 1104. While it worked well, it was just too hard to remove. In any event, ThreeBond discontinued the 1104 some time ago. At 5300 miles, I popped a brand new (old-style) plug in there, gooping same with Permatex® Ultra Copper® Maximum Temperature RTV Silicone Gasket Maker (http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/gasketing/gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-copper-maximum-temperature-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-detail). That plug started leaking at 9600 miles (i.e. it lasted 4300 miles). At 10,100 miles, I replaced it with a new style (solid rubber) plug, gooping it with Permatex® Ultra Rubber Gasket Sealant & Dressing (http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/gasketing/gasket-sealants/permatex-ultra-rubber-gasket-sealant-dressing-detail). Now, with 13,900 miles on the bike (3800 miles on the plug), I've got another oil leak that looks a lot like a head plug leak. I'm not absolutely certain, as I've not torn into it yet, but my money's on the head plug. :'( |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Digger on 10/06/14 at 19:21:19 I received Verslagen's head plug today: http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/Plug/NewHeadPlug.jpg (I stole Verslagen's picture). Ver, you do good work! Now, I'd like some advice. When I'm installing said plug (which features two silicone o-rings), should I dress said o-rings with anything? If nothing else, I'll slather a bit of silicone grease on them (good to 600 deg F), but I'm seriously considering dressing them with Permatex® Ultra Rubber Gasket Sealant & Dressing (http://www.permatex.com/products-2/product-categories/gasketing/gasket-sealants/permatex-ultra-rubber-gasket-sealant-dressing-detail). Reason? I've had good luck using this stuff on lots of rubber gaskets, to include the o-rings that seal the Savage's valve cover inspection caps and also on the bike's camshaft end caps. Thoughts? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 10/06/14 at 19:36:32 I haven't and I have one for the valve cover too. That's been on for almost a year too and whereas the other is a stock one... it's taken a set or flattened and the red one hasn't. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Dave on 10/07/14 at 04:20:46 To seal.....or not to seal....that is the question. I don't know that this is a "right" answer. The stock plug is definitely one that should be sealed....Suzuki has proven that it will leak eventually if you don't seal it. Verslagen's plug has 2 O-rings that will seal under compression, and in most situations you only need to lubricate the O-ring and it will do the work. Applying a sealer and gluing it in place will most likely provide a seal as well.....however the O-rings will be locked in place and not doing anything but taking up space once the sealer cures. Is the top O-ring compressed onto the head when the head cover is bolted on? If so.....I might put a little sealer on the top O-ring and just lubricate the hole before pushing the plug in....being careful not to get any lube on the top of the hole where the sealer would be. That way the top O-ring is sealed in place, and the bottom one is free to do the O-ring thing. It's a tough call.....you are exploring a new era in head plug repair. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/07/14 at 07:51:21 What's the most pressure that they will see? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 10/07/14 at 13:04:53 2E3137302D2A1B2B1B23313D76440 wrote:
Ever eat a bean burrito? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/07/14 at 13:28:48 Mmmm,, that much, ehh? Im surprised those flimsy head cover bolts keep the thing in at all.. If I eat Navy beans I can get a 2 masted ship up on plane.. Years ago I saw a video of a hung over truck driver who felt so bad he just TOOK an Alka-Seltser. No glass O water to put it in, No water to drink after,, ( Probably a good thing, there) Anyway,, he was just wearing boxer shorts and a tee shirt, standing in the ditch, in pain, leaned over, farting so hard his shorts were flapping.. I went looking and I cant find it.. OHH Id like to see that again.. I laffed so hard tears ran down my leg.. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Dave on 10/07/14 at 13:43:09 544750514E4345474C13220 wrote:
Ever eat a bean burrito?[/quote] They have a Bean and Cheese Burrito at the convenient store next door that is called 'The Bomb"......along with beans it has the "textured vegetable protein" in the ingredients. It seems like the wrong thing to eat on the nights I work late, and then go to a City Council Meeting! :o |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/07/14 at 16:00:37 That depends.. IF you want it to be a short meeting,, eat 2. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by MnSpring on 10/07/14 at 17:04:52 6A515C4B5A564D4B5058554A390 wrote:
I am thinking, it is the RIGHT thing to eat !!!!!!! "Only the Strong Survive!" ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 10/07/14 at 23:07:30 I'll be selling these as soon as I can find someone to make them. To much work on my little lathe. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by 49mack on 10/08/14 at 04:53:58 Hmmm . . . my '96 has about 22,000 miles and uses a 1/2 quart of oil every 2,000 miles. I don't think the previous owner was a maintenance freak. I wonder if that plug could be my source of oil loss. Where would I find info on a leakdown test? |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by Dave on 10/08/14 at 05:06:34 564C41404644571211250 wrote:
If that plug is leaking...you know it as the oil drips down the right front side of the cylinder head and gets blown all over the engine. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/08/14 at 08:47:13 110B06070103105556620 wrote:
What oil you running? How much of that 2,000 miles is 65 Mph or more? And,if you haven't,it's time to look at the chain. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by verslagen1 on 10/09/14 at 14:45:39 I got an idea for a "from the bottom" temporary fix for the leak. But I don't know if most people will be able to get it in place. Esensually it will be the same as this plug with the head cut off. with a tapped thru hole in the center. A bolt will installed there and will be extended after the plug is put in place. There isn't a whole lot of room to turn a wrench, but there wouldn't need to be major force to hold it in place. I'm thinking Loctite on the thread and use a string to turn the bolt. And when you're ready to do a proper repair you can pull it up from the top. |
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Title: Re: A little plug work Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/09/14 at 17:05:38 You know, a boat has a rubber plug that swells to fill the hole when the knob is turned.. |
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