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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bike /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1356919010 Message started by Qwapy on 12/30/12 at 17:56:50 |
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Title: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bike Post by Qwapy on 12/30/12 at 17:56:50 Howdee guys, and gals First of all I wish y’ all had a great Christmas and whishing y’all a happy and safe New Year’s. OK, to make a long story short: I have a 2005 S40 with 1,800 miles on it. I’ve been following your discussions and experiences dealing with your bikes. I decided to do a little mod to mine so I got Lancer’s jetsets, got a set of brand new Dyna mufflers on eBay (and Routy’s forward controls adaptor). I installed the Dyna muffler initially (still have the other Dyna if anybody is interested) and had some trouble trying to connect it to the exhaust pipe, tried the gasket but had too many leaks so I got the exhaust adapter from Ryca, it worked like a charm, perfect. I installed a cone air filter and proceeded to install the new jets (main & pilot). I initially did the 150 main (leaving the stock pilot), replace the spacer with the washer provided on Lancer’s jetset kit also I unplugged the pilot screw per your instructions. First thing I notice was that the bike did not need to choke to star and I’ve read somewhere that Lancer made a comment about having to rich of a mix, I was able to fix that but it was running real rough and backfiring a lot, it had no power (acceleration) whatsoever. OK, I went up on the main to 150 and the 55 pilot. Now it runs better (the engine seems to be smoother) but still has no acceleration at all. I put the throttle down and it goes nowhere, it eventually gets to 50 or 55 but that’s it. Ah! I have a motorcycle mechanic that suggested that the air cone may be the culprit but, I reconnected the air box, and it still socks (performance). I will appreciate any help any of you can provide Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/30/12 at 18:30:06 Did ya take the carb apart or just flip it over & swap jets? |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 12/30/12 at 18:55:18 I took it a part. I followed Serowbot's guidelines "two step increase in the overall jetting.... From stock,.. say, from a #145 to a #150 main,... from a #52.5 to a #55 pilot with a little more opening on the idle mix screw (1/2 to 1 turn more)... and a reduced spacer thickness on the needle" with the three washers that came on Lancer's jetset. Serowbot mentioned that the spacer affects accelarations and that is where my problem resides. Should I put back the stock spacer? just wondering |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by clearush on 12/30/12 at 19:20:28 what all has been done?? do you have the stock petcock or a raptor mod, which cone filter did you have?? more details will help us even know where to start looking |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 12/30/12 at 19:34:42 I have the raptor. I reconnected the airbox (not using the air cone anymore) there was no change in the performance at all (cone or airbox). In my original posting I stated what mods I did (dyna muffler, rejeted the carb). Installed a cone air filter originally when I did the dyna and the rejet but reattached the airbox back when performance did not improve. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Cavi Mike on 12/30/12 at 21:34:01 Yeah, but what brand cone filter? Cheap filters block the port on the carb and that port is responsible for pretty much the entire function of the carb. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1347609265 |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 12/30/12 at 21:38:54 Yes, I know that. I made sure the filter was not blocking anything in the carb. Anyhow, I am not using the filter, I reconnected the air box. Below is a picture of the filter I used (Emgo stainless mesh filter ). Again, the filter is not an issue (if it ever was one) I am using the stock air box. I reshaped the filter just like you did yours in your post before I installed it. I've read your post about the cheapo filters and their problem blocking the intake on the carb ;) For now , I will be running the stock box and I will use a K&N instead (for the air box) |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by verslagen1 on 12/30/12 at 22:31:05 6D6367626F60610E0 wrote:
Don't need choke to start, means pilot ok, I'd put that one back in. Quote:
No accel, lean on the top end... can't get to 55. Go up on the main Quote:
after you get it to go 70, if it still lacks accel, do the white spacer mod. check your pod filter, some narrows down where it sits and blocks the intake to the slide. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 12/30/12 at 23:56:22 Thanks guys for your replies. Verslagen1 wrote: Quote:
You mean the the one I used on the first step? the 52.5 pilot (stock) Quote:
I've already went up 2 steps from 147.5 to 150, to 152.5 Quote:
How do i get to 70 ? ;D I've also done the white spacer mod already As is now the mods are:
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Cavi Mike on 12/31/12 at 03:14:39 Being in such a hot climate I think I would have kept the original jets right from the start. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 12/31/12 at 05:07:53 I don't know? I know that the stock jets did not work properly, the bike had a hard time running after I installed the muffler and the cone filter, that's why I went to the first step mod (150 main jet) and then the second step (152.5 main, 55 pilot). I think I am going back to the first step 150 main and 52.5 pilot and put the stock spacer back and see what happends. I will also leave the air box and get a K&N that fits the air box (althought I like the looks with the cone)The spacer affects acceleration, and that is the problem I am having. I'll find out. I am planning to get one of those 36mm Mikuni VM round slide carburetor from Lancer eventually but for now, I just want to have some fun with the bike. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Bubba on 12/31/12 at 09:54:53 What were you getting in terms of performance before you swapped out the exhaust? If you killed off your performance there would be no need to ditch the stock pipe...other than dropping 20 lbs and making it look better... ;) Dropping 20 lbs of ugly is the best reason... My ex, once suggested I cut my head off for the same reason... -Serow... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 12/31/12 at 10:38:28 Hello Bubba, Performance wise I was getting whatever you can get with a stock bike. Now, I am getting nothing (stock, even if it sucked was better) but with the mod I should be getting a slighty better performance. And even though it has no acceleration the engine seems (maybe wishfull thinking) to be a lot smoother than before. And it sounds way better than before |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/31/12 at 10:40:43 Are ya SURE your slide isnt just sticking & dragging? Ya didnt oil it, did ya? |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 12/31/12 at 11:03:13 @Justin, Nope it is not sticking. Oiling? I did not recall oiling it anywhere. I just replaced the spacer with the washers and the needle seems fine (spring moving fine, no sticking) |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Bubba on 12/31/12 at 11:11:00 hmmm, Qwapy, i'd say put everything back the way it was except for the exhaust...start with just the airmix screw and play with that until it's running as smooth as you can, then move onto the main jet and go up one step, then onto the pilot then the spacer...after each change note if it was better or worse...step by step until it seems just right... pilot controls idle and basically getting it up and rolling main controls midrange throttle response needle height is for wot.... i think i got that right but maybe not... ::) |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by SALB on 12/31/12 at 11:29:14 2D2327222F20214E0 wrote:
Sounds like you may have made a common newbie mistake...doing everything at once! :( Put the jetting and spacer back to stock, and then follow the tuning guide ONE step at a time. 1. Pilot 2. Main 3. Spacer(s) I have a suspicion that by the time you are getting into the main jet, you are flooding out (too rich). Keep in mind that the effect of each step is cumulative as to the total amount of fuel being added. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 12/31/12 at 11:45:05 Thanks, I'll do that and let you know how it worked out |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by clearush on 12/31/12 at 12:45:01 while your doing that check the vacuum port that is plugged with the raptor mod. my vacuum port cap dry rotted on me and allowed an air leak that gave me similar performance issues till I recapped it. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 12/31/12 at 14:00:04 Clearush, Thanks, You are referring to the vacum port on the carb, correct? The Raptor does not have vacum. I did the Petcok/Raptor mod about 3 weeks ago and I plugged the port with a rubber plug. I saw somebody on the forum using silicone on the port but, I don't know. I am not planning to use that port anymore but don't like the idea of sealing it. I may use a clamp to ensure it stays put but as it is right now, it is pretty safe. I included a picture of it. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/31/12 at 14:03:31 How was it running before? We already know how its running now,,its Qwapy |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 12/31/12 at 16:37:55 Before the mod? It was running fine as any S40 stock. Nothing to write home about it. I had a lot of trouble with the Petcock; did the Raptor mod, Viola! That problem was fixed. Wanted to do the Dyna mod to get a little bit more out of it. The stock muffler sound sucks. Now it sounds great (even thought is not getting up to speed) and the backfire is gone. Hopefully, this is a temporary situation. I had a problem trying to get the stock spacer back like it was; one of the screw on the needle slide is stripped and that has put a temporary halt on my work. My son is a automechanic and hopefully he will help me but, I have to wait until tomorrow or the day after. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by engineer on 01/01/13 at 03:44:27 Sounds like you've done your homework. Carbs are not my strong point and other than cleaning them I try to avoid doing anything to them. But adjusting the idle screw and the spacer mod seem pretty safe, I did both of those to my stock bike and made small improvements in performance. You also did the jet changes incrementally so it seems you shouldn't be having these serious problems. My guess would be that at some point you may have made a mistake when you reassembled the carb, maybe with the slide. Only some error would make it go from acceptable to almost non-functional so quickly. Just my guess. So I would take the carb off one more time and study the slide assembly, look at the pictures, parts lists etc. and see if something is out of order. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by LANCER on 01/01/13 at 06:43:29 One of my stock S40's has the same Emgo stainless mesh air filter, but had and Emgo muffler from RYCA initially and now one from Apollo Cone. Both are high flow mufflers. I currently have the stock 52.5 pilot, 3 washers on the needle and a 152.5 main jet. The pilot screw is at 2 3/4 turns out so I could go up to a 55 and reset the pilot screw at about 1 turn out, but runs great as is. On a flat section of rural highway it will peg the speedo on a good weather day. On a funky day it only hits 95 mph. My other stock S40 is still on the stock air box and has a dyna muffler. The carb has the stock 52.5 pilot, white spacer shaved 1/2 by previous owner and a 150 main jet. It runs very well, does not backfire and will pull 90-95 on any given day. It's not as quick or fast as the other but runs good. The tiny screws in the slide that hold the needle are made of crap metal. Use a small impact driver (available at Harbor Freight for about $7.50) to remove the screws and replace them with tiny screws from inside an old computer. They are an exact replacement and are made of good hard metal. Use the 150 main jet, it should work just fine for you. If you still have issues after that then the cause is something other than the jet choices. You would then need to check for clogged passageways and/or air leaks in the exhaust system, fuel delivery from the tank, ignition...... |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/01/13 at 16:32:03 A hard piece of wire or a good pin punch & a Very well placed ( LIGHT) shot with a lite hammer will push the metal back into place to rebuild the X in the screw. The screw heads arent phillips, they just Look like they are. If youll take a #2 Philips & stick it in the screw under a tail light ( The big one that secures it to the bike) youll see that the tip bottoms out before the X is full of screwdriver. Ive got some screwdrivers Ive ground the tips flat on. The HF impact driver comes with a long, skinny tip.. I cant remember if I hada flatten it off any, tho. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by LANCER on 01/01/13 at 18:27:53 796660677A7D4C7C4C74666A21130 wrote:
The long skinny tip works fine as is for me with that little driver. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 01/01/13 at 20:21:11 My son was able to get the damage screw out using a baby lineman’s pliers; they have a crossed pattern and make it easier to “grab” the head of the screw (it was really damaged). I’ve already got the replacement screws per Lancer’s suggestion. I am putting the carb back together tomorrow and see how the bike’s performance is. Thank you guys for all your help |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/02/13 at 10:23:57 Remember that just fingerprints on the slide is enough to cause problems..clean & dry, |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 01/02/13 at 12:55:47 Good day everybody and Happy New Year to y'all Ok, I thought I found the culprit, me and my inexperience with the carb. When putting the carb back together (the slide) yesterday I noticed the little "lip" around the edge of the rubber part (called piston valve on the diagram), see attached picture. The first ime when I did the mod I did not noticed it and just put the slide unto the carb without ensuring it was properly set (the piston valve). Funny, I used latex gloves to minimize the contaminants but did not check if it was put back properly, I guess it was not, hence the lack of power. Just as a word of advise this info should be diseminated (the correct positioning of the piston valve on the carburator) just like the one about the washer under the main jet, thanks to the people that has done this jetting before many times we, the newbies can benefit from your experience and do a better job (or at least try ;) ) I put the carb back together and I followed Lancer's advise (150 main, 52.5 pilot) and I replaced the 3 washers with the original spacer. I also replaced the damaged screws with stainless steel screws. My son suggested to used zinc treated screws because gas being very corrosive on cheap metal. I have not started the bike yet but, i will as soon as I have the chance (home chores) :-/ I'll keep postig the progress |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 01/06/13 at 19:06:02 Howdee fellow bikers, Success!!!! At least a 95% success I put the carb in the bike after I redid the jetting and it was still running awful, worse than before. I read that one of you suggested to use a carburetor cleaner and I took the carb a parts again and this time I used one set of latex gloves to take it a parts and clean it and another set of gloves to put it back together, making sure all the jets and little holes were clean (not like they were clogged or dirty before but just to make sure “everything” was clean as I could possible make it). Put the carb back in the bike (left the jets just like Lancer suggested; 150 Main, 52.5 Pilot) and I left the stock spacer on the needle. Remember, I also took the air cone filter and reconnected the air box. Adjusted the pilot screw the best I could and took it for a ride on the open road. WOAW!!!!! It’s alive! It’s alive!! The monster is alive!!! It goes! It runs real smooth, it goes when you put down the throttle, it really goes. I can get to 70 mph in no time. I even tried (for the heck of it) to go faster and pulled the throttle down and it went like nothing; I reached 92 mph like nothing. I was really surprise, pleasantly surprise. It is not like I will be driving like mad out of hell constantly but, it is real nice to know that if you need speed to pass or just to go fast sometimes, you can do it. Before with the stock settings I could never make it more than 70 or 75 and it sounded like the bike was going to have an asthma attack. Now, it goes and you can feel the engine a lot smoother than before. I went from Orlando to Merritt Island and back (about 45 miles one way) and it did wonderfully, very, very responsive. Never new I had a beast under me, no more sluggish bike, those time are gone. Now, you saw I said 95% success. OK, the other 5% is that it still backfires. Although it is more like a “pop” sound than a backfire and it does it every time I shift (either up or down), not that bad but it is kind of bothersome. Any suggestion? The bike runs great, just those popping sounds when shifting. Also, I have a minor question: I mentioned that the screws inside the slide where stripped and I replaced them with a stainless steel screws (I could not find a zinc coated screws). Are the Stainless steel screws ok for use inside the slide? My concerns is about the gas eaten them out (corrosion) I include a picture of the screws below (the original one (stripped), a first option that I replaced with a second option with a smaller diameter head). Well, if anybody can help me or have suggestions about the popping sound I will appreciate your suggestions. Thanks, Qwapy |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/07/13 at 07:23:30 If gas eats the stainless that poor carb is a goner for sure.. Good goin Qwapy, now its not runnin qwapy.. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 01/08/13 at 09:09:54 I rejetted to Lance’s specs:
It is running better than I thought this bike could run but, it has those "popping" sounds when shifting (either up or down) Should I replace the white spacer for the three washers? |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by verslagen1 on 01/08/13 at 09:16:25 656B6F6A676869060 wrote:
Double check for air leaks at the header and muff joints. wave a lit candle around to detect a leak. shift popping usually caused by air leaks. but if you have a really open exhaust, might not be cureable how bad is it? a pop or a KERPOW? |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by arteacher on 01/08/13 at 09:29:46 0D3A2D2D2E7E7F777C4F0 wrote:
Serow- your head can not possibly weigh 20 lb. ;) Sorry, I could never resist a straight line. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by verslagen1 on 01/08/13 at 09:33:48 0D06060F030C0D1716620 wrote:
Serow- your head can not possibly weigh 20 lb. ;) Sorry, I could never resist a straight line.[/quote] It's all hair. :-? |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 01/08/13 at 09:36:15 @Verslagen1 They are "pops". And they only happen when I shift (up or down). It is not an open muffler the Dyna muffler still has the inside intact. I've already checked for leaks on the header and at the joint, there are none. The funny thing is that it does not pop when the choke is out (???) |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by verslagen1 on 01/08/13 at 09:49:46 It may be a tad lean, or your carb adjustment is a little off. some say just don't let the carb snap shut while shifting. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 01/08/13 at 09:58:42 Should I replace the white spacer with the three washer? (less leaner?) |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Bubba on 01/08/13 at 10:25:25 These bikes backfire...i have a pretty open pipe and you might be able to adjust it slightly by turning the airmix screw 1/8 to 1/4 turn either way...I usually adjust mine depending on the weather but have played with it less and less as I get better at feathering the throttle so it doesn't pop... There are times when I force it to backfire just for fun...cuz...it's fun... ;D |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Routy on 01/09/13 at 06:47:07 The white spacer controls the midrange. If it runs smooth under light load in any gear, don't mess w/ the white spacer. If it runs rough, and smoother w/ the choke on 1 click, then a thinner spacer will fix it. A thinner white spacer WILL NOT stop backfire stock bikes should have run fairly well before any mods. If it didn't, the problem should be found before any mods are made. Just my 2 sense worth |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 01/09/13 at 09:54:25 Thanks Routy, The bike was running fine before just a little slow in building up speed. Now, after the mods, its faster and goes even further (MPH) than with the stock settings. I guess I have to keep on playing with the pilot screw to get that "desired" setting and hopefully the pops will get reduced (it is not a backfire) |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Dave on 01/09/13 at 12:17:02 Your riding style can be adjusted to minimize the pops. Roll off the throttle slowly when shifting, and make the shift quickly and get into the next gear and back on the throttle without being lazy about it. You don't have to act like you are drag racing - just don't doddle with the clutch in and the throttle fully closed and allow the engine to go back down to idle speed. Same when you are just riding around - don't close the throttle in a hurry if you don't need to - just roll it off slowly and only close it enough to match the new speed.....don't close the throttle more than necessary and then crack it open again. After you experiment with it a bit.....you will learn what does and doesn't work. |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Qwapy on 01/14/13 at 11:40:16 I finally got the bike running great (an occasionally pop here and there). Yes, it is popping but I can live with it, I think I have to play with the pilot screw just like Lancer suggested in his posting related to tuning the carb. I did replace the white spacer with the three (3) washers and the popping that occurred every time I shifted disappeared. I left the Main at 150 and the Pilot at 52.5 (stock) also got a K&N filter (6595) to replace the stock filter (in the air box). The bike is running great, has lots of power, lots of response, and very, very smooth. Since the only mod left for me to do was to replace the white spacer I choose to do it from the top without removing the carb (just for the heck of it). Personally, I prefer to take the carb but since I am still learning about the bike I thought I will give it a try. The only thing I would recommend (optional) is to replace the screws on top of the carb that hold the cover for the slide and its components. I got some hex steel screws and that work perfect (next time I need to take them out). See picture below. So I’m up and running, I am a happy camper, or should I say “a Happy Biker” 8-) Thanks for all your help and suggestions; they “all” are welcome. Stay safe, Qwapy |
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Title: Re: Need assistance - Having trouble tuning the bi Post by Blinky on 01/14/13 at 12:57:17 Qwapy, Glad you have it sorted out. I too ended up keeping the 52.5 pilot. went to a 150 main and 3 washers. I also have the Dyna and K&N drop in. It is cool here but have had it out twice with great throttle response and it is a pleasure to ride a motorcycle that sounds like a motorcycle. I had Michelin Commander II tires installed Saturday and I was able to get a set of 11.5" Progressive shocks and fork brace by Super Brace on it yesterday. Hope to see a 45 degree day here soon (no Florida na-na-nas please) to see what she feels like on the road. Nice going and good hunting |
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