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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cliff /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1356712557 Message started by Pine on 12/28/12 at 08:35:57 |
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Title: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cliff Post by Pine on 12/28/12 at 08:35:57 So per the "news" we are 4 days out from the "Fiscal Cliff". This has been bugging me. I really couldn't put my finger on what about it was bugging me until my morning commute into work this morn. So here it is - the media says that if the Fiscal Cliff is not averted those in the 50k -70k tax braket will pay an additional $2500 in taxes for the year. Well that fits my bracket. So I could be up for another $2500 in taxes on my income. Do I want them to go up... not really. Do I feel that $2500 is a significant increase in taxes... not really. What????? So lets look at it like this. Take a dollar bill and put it on the table. That represents ALL the money in the economy at any given time. The VALUE of that money is based on the amassed productivity at that same point in time. Note it only accounts against PRODUCTIVITY. Ok, so now take a dime and place it on the table. The dime represents the goverment creating money out of thin air and placing it into the economy. Because there was no increase in productivity, the effect is that the new total sum must now balance agaist current productively already in existance... ie it dilutes the value of all producivity in current existance. That IS inflation. Forget trying to figure what prices did, or why .. or buying chicken instead of beef. Printing money is a tax. The rate of that tax is equal to the percent increase in money not created by increased productivity. PERIOD. So lets go back to our fiscal cliff and that $2500 increase on EARNINGS. I figure $70000 * .035 = 2400 So its a 3.5 percent tax increase on my earnings. Go back to our dollar bill model. Lets pretend that instead of a dime ( 10%) .. its was 3 and half pennies. Should be the same right??? 3.5% But wait... its not.. You see the fiscal cliff tax rate increase is on earnings.... but that 3.5 pennies... thats on EVERYTHING you have. Cash, yes, stock and bonds yes, your house, your car, your while lilfe insureance annuity. your savings.. your stamp colletion.. your motorbike. All of its devalued by that same 3.5%. The price increases you find at the store are a REFLECTION of the devalue of money and anything you have that then can be assessed in terms of that money. I am too lazy to verify it.. but I strongly suspect that the US has been printing money ( Qualitative Easing) way more than 3.5 pennies on the dollar..and probably more than even a dime. Thus my taxes are raised with every QE put in place. I am being taxed at rates MUCH higher than some puny 3.5% of earnings. So why the fuss? Whats the big deal of the Fiscal Cliff. Its a shell game... misdirection. Watch as the heros of capital hill save us from the Fiscal Cliff... but never mind the printing presses going full tilt behind the curtain. PS: I have ZERO expertise in the area I just spoke on. I'm just a 50yo country boy, watching the "news" and shaking my head. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/28/12 at 11:25:56 Well, Pine,, if youve got no real learnin on it, youve sure done a fine job of grasping it. YOud LOve Creature from Jekyll Island. & Youd make a great spokesman for sanity, which is Not Keynes. look up Tally Stick currency money Grasping what inflation is is something too many cant do. Theyre accepting as truth what theyve been told, when rejecting what others have said & just sitting quietly & thinking will yield better results. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by MShipley on 12/28/12 at 11:32:49 But (in my humble opinion) the government does not have a revenue problem, they have a spending problem. How does raising more revenue resolve a spending problem? The Dems and Repubs both agree that we have a spending problem just in different ways. The dems think we spend too much on wars and military the repubs too much on entitlements and social issues. Without stepping into whom I think is right I will say this. We pay these guys to get together and cut the spending on both sides so that they do not have to take more from the poor working guy. As you can see in the news and read in the paper neither really cares about the people, just their own power and agenda. After all you can afford it. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by WebsterMark on 12/28/12 at 11:44:07 Yes, inflation is a form of taxation because the purchasing power of money is reduced. However, one thing I’d add when you talk about prices; the value of goods and services increases over time due to technology and productivity gains. The net price of almost everything comes down, not up, over time. So the effect of inflation is reduced. Not eliminated, but minimized. Increased taxes on income on the other hand, directly removes that income out of your hands and shifts it to someone else’s. No one disputes the need for taxes, but increasing taxes rather than cutting spending seems a bad idea. I appreciate you post and the way your presented the dollar and dime arguments. That’s the way to look at economics. Find examples that can be scaled up and it’s not particularly complicated. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by srinath on 12/28/12 at 12:59:03 Inflation is a form of taxation with one very big difference. Inflation affects those with dollars as in - in cash - far more than the income earners. Inflation causes you to get adjustments. Remember in the 80's when every year there were 8-12% raises just for cost of living ? that goes to the working man, and not to the rich. The govt - the present govt may have a spending problem, however that is a result of people getting older, the 2 wars we are fighting agaist 2 countries 1/2 way round the world, and the fact that we have to provide armed guards @ every school, theater, mall and post office. The revenue problem exists, and the super rich are making that problem get worse and worse by delaying every attempt to correct it. Need to fix it both. Bring troops home and stop wasteful spending on cops sitting in every school, mall and theater. Gee cant do that without clamping down on guns. Tax the rich, tax corporate profits and dividends etc appropriately, and close loopholes that allow google to pay .003% in tax but doing a double dutch sandwich. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by Pine on 12/28/12 at 13:32:35 4342595E514458300 wrote:
I am glad to see I have at least given food for thought, though I sadly, feel my main point may have gone un-noticed. It matters not if they raise taxes or lower spending for this current "fiscal cliff" as the entire idea is a "made up" crisis. The REAL tax has been occuring(QE 1 -3)... and is being elevated to higher levels(infinate QE proposed).... but media and the public cannot focus on it due to this fake crisis. Srinath, I find it comical that we see the same things, and yet draw such opposite conclusions (no offense intended). In 1981 I was a senior in High School, and I have a very specific idea on what I personally experienced due to inflation during that time. Inflation affects those with dollars as in - in cash - far more than the income earners This is both true and false... inflation has an immediate affect on cash assets, and the more such assets you have the the more "hit" you take dollar wise. However, since inflation devalues all money, (cause prices to rise) it is the poor that "feel" it the most. The fact that my "million" dollar portfolio lost 10% hurts... but I can stillafford Milk @$5 gal, versue the minimum wage worker with 3 kids who has to now account for that higher cost in her meager budget. By the way, this is not just MY view, but is a long accepted veiw by most on all side of the isle. Inflation causes you to get adjustments. Remember in the 80's when every year there were 8-12% raises just for cost of living ? that goes to the working man, and not to the rich. In the 1980's this DID occur. But I also KNOW that during that time inflation was well above that range. Intrest rates for example were 24%. My first job paid me $2.45/hr, my second $2.85/hr, then $3.15/hr. Sound good for 1982? Then there was the trip to my cousins funeral, which I drove myself to about 300 miles away. In my 1976 Ford Pinto. The Gas price? $1.46/gal! No my friend, inflation is not good, not for the rich, and certainly not for the working poor. And as for NOW... REAL inflation (using the calculations from the 1980's) is running about 4-7% per year for the last 9 years( only Congress and the media use the new calcualtions of 1 -3%). I have not seen minimum wage hikes to correct for that. COLA yes(retiement), but not min wage. PS: I am NOT a big fan of large minimum wage hikes, of even of a high minimum wage. What that effectively does is reduce the number of jobs and reduce the type of jobs to those supportable by such wages. But thats another topic. Thanks for responding to my post! |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by srinath on 12/28/12 at 16:05:10 In a lot of cases, you get the raise almost before the inflation hits. Or if the govt is well functional and in tune with the people, and not playing tug of war with each other ... that would be how it would be. In effect, a lot of things are frozen in price atleast the big ticket items. I remember my rent did not change in over 2 years ... till I moved across the country. I got a near 10% raise 2 years in a row, my car payment, rent, and a few other big items were frozen in price. Food kept moving up, but we were not going broke by any means due to that. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by WebsterMark on 12/31/12 at 05:36:21 I’m absolutely sick to death of the stupid circular gun arguments so Pine; here’s a question for you: It matters not if they raise taxes or lower spending for this current "fiscal cliff" as the entire idea is a "made up" crisis. The REAL tax has been occuring(QE 1 -3)... and is being elevated to higher levels(infinate QE proposed).... but media and the public cannot focus on it due to this fake crisis. Let’s assume nothing is done today and your SS tax goes up 2% tomorrow and your income tax goes up 3.5% on average (I think is what they are saying); would you still say this is a ‘made up crisis’ since you will lose income? And by the way, you’ll actually get nothing in return for losing that income which will be used to vastly overpay for more government programs that benefit no one except a select few. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by Pine on 12/31/12 at 08:56:23 784A4D5C5B4A5D624E5D442F0 wrote:
Yes, I stand by my statement.. this "crisis" is made up. First; it wont happen. Watch.. your saviors will 'save the day" Second; the they will openly admit that to do so; will mean more inflation, but YOU will be happy, afterall they didn't take your money from your face. Third; they will rob you blind for the next 10 - 20 years The fiscal cliff, can be made to take time, or they retro-actively "turn back the tax clock". It is mis-direction. 5% of my earnings is nothing compard to the losses I have already sufferd due to inflation. The debt is there.. it must be paid. It can be taxed, or it can be stolen via inflation. There is NO other option. The idea that not raising taxes means the debt goes away is absurd. PS: Coffee, when I bought it last year was $7, it is now $9.. 28% inflation... and you want me to worry about 5%???? |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by WebsterMark on 12/31/12 at 09:34:51 I just bought coffee for less than that. Coffee will go back down. I'm not disputing your point. I'm only saying increasing taxes lowers income on a dollar by dollar basis. Inflation increases can be partially off-set via other means. but YOU will be happy, afterall they didn't take your money from your face. easy; I've no intention of escalating this any futher than an economic discussion. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by Serowbot on 12/31/12 at 09:51:45 The government does not have a revenue problem, they have a spending problem. Such a tired cliche'... :-?... Every Fox News commentator has repeated this bumper sticker, phrase 11 times a day for the past 4 years... Funny,.. they never said it before... :-?... Also, funny that GW, created the largest expansion of government in decades and put in place a huge tax cut for the rich at the same time... That,.. is more spending, ... and,.. less revenue... Revenue and spending go hand in hand... like diet and exercise... You can do only one if you want to... but, it's like talking with half yer' brain tied behind yer' back... I hear some people do that,. habitually... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/31/12 at 10:21:36 Row, we had a spending problem THEN, too.. that Fox didnt say it doesnt mean people didnt know it, Its true, now, too,. we spend tons & by tons I Mean, tons, on pallets, of money on wars that are not wars we should be in, |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by Gyrobob on 12/31/12 at 10:37:20 66797F7865625363536B79753E0C0 wrote:
We have a spending problem. If the gummint would spend only on what the constitution allows, we'd have a surplus. The SCHLIB is the all-time worst, but his predecessors, while paling in comparison, spent too much as well,.... not to mention the dweebs we call congress. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by WebsterMark on 12/31/12 at 12:30:08 Such a tired cliche'... ... Every Fox News commentator has repeated this bumper sticker, phrase 11 times a day for the past 4 years... Funny,.. they never said it before I disagree Sew; I know for a fact conservatives jumped on Bush for his spending. i know I did. Obama has pushed that spending even further, that's a fact. Bush did his share, I never said otherwise. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/31/12 at 14:07:06 Tired Cliche' or not,, its true.. whether or not criticism was leveled at Bush for his spending being insane the criticism is fair NOW. Until people stop using the bad behavior of others to justify the bad behavior of "Their Guy" America has no hope. WE need to all be Honest & Face the Facts. Spending is WAY outta control. The Feds are involved in things they have no Right to be involved in. The Big C lays out exactly where the Fed has power. We need to limit them to those areas & demand they do their job in those areas. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by MShipley on 12/31/12 at 17:29:48 cliche' or not it is true....it was for Bush and it is even more true for the current administration. Do not assume that because I do not agree with the current admin. that I do agree with the Republicans. Actually I think they have us all right where they want us. They have polarized 1/2 the country aginst the other 1/2 of the country. This keeps one of the two sides always in power. They never win by thier platform or what they will do, they win buy fostering your hate for the other guy and vice/versa. Quite frankly I think it is purposeful. The current situaton: it is not about what is right, they will do what they want to do. But before they do they will create as much hate and distain in the american people one side aginst the other as they can. Some will vote for any Republican because they hate Democrates the other will vote for any Democrate because they hate Republicans........and on.....and on.....and on |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by LANCER on 01/01/13 at 07:08:32 36292F2835320333033B29256E5C0 wrote:
It would be good if we could make a clean sweep and replace everyone from the president on down with some regular folks who have common sense. Go back to the only real LAW OF THE LAND and reset. The Constitution is a very short document which is designed to LIMIT the federal gov't in what it can do, with all other powers relegated to the states. One of the FEW things authorized for the federal gov't to do is to raise and maintain a military for defense, and to insure that commerce between the states is done fairly. Otherwise, butt out of our business. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by WebsterMark on 01/01/13 at 08:26:40 What you're talking about is the real EPA amendment: The Enumerated Powers Act. Any law passed by Congress must specifiy the section of the Constituion that gives Congress the constitutional basis for involving themselves in business of either the State(s) or the people(s). If passed, the first big case would be to again decide the legal meaning of the general welfare clause. You want changes to the country? Make Congress cite their original authority. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by srinath on 01/01/13 at 09:27:19 6A67686563743431060 wrote:
It would be good if we could make a clean sweep and replace everyone from the president on down with some regular folks who have common sense. Go back to the only real LAW OF THE LAND and reset. The Constitution is a very short document which is designed to LIMIT the federal gov't in what it can do, with all other powers relegated to the states. One of the FEW things authorized for the federal gov't to do is to raise and maintain a military for defense, and to insure that commerce between the states is done fairly. Otherwise, butt out of our business. [/quote] I think we just did that ... in november. Its called the election. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by Starlifter on 01/01/13 at 18:08:34 And not one word from either side about the billions and billons and a trillion spent (wasted) on foreign wars and military adventures....what a bloated and disgusting sacred cow. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by MShipley on 01/02/13 at 05:09:17 I agree with Lancer, until we fire them all and start over it is just more of the same. What we saw in November was nothing but a continuation of the same mess. And yes Starlifter I am sure it means more war for some reason some where. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by WebsterMark on 01/02/13 at 06:19:17 And not one word from either side about the billions and billons and a trillion spent I don't recall that to be true. I recall many discussions about cost. Contrary to pop culture belief, there was no 'rush to war'. It makes a nice catch phrase, but that’s not how it happened. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by Pine on 01/02/13 at 08:45:40 1C25222938233E4C0 wrote:
Yes, I stand by my statement.. this "crisis" is made up. First; it wont happen. Watch.. your saviors will 'save the day"Second; the they will openly admit that to do so; will mean more inflation, but YOU will be happy, afterall they didn't take your money from your face. Third; they will rob you blind for the next 10 - 20 years The fiscal cliff, can be made to take time, or they retro-actively "turn back the tax clock". It is mis-direction. 5% of my earnings is nothing compard to the losses I have already sufferd due to inflation. The debt is there.. it must be paid. It can be taxed, or it can be stolen via inflation. There is NO other option. The idea that not raising taxes means the debt goes away is absurd. PS: Coffee, when I bought it last year was $7, it is now $9.. 28% inflation... and you want me to worry about 5%???? [/quote] Yehaw Congress saved the day! You heard it here first.... Web .. You are correct. My cutting remark was uncalled for and I do apologize. Also as you statement about inflation. You are correct... to a point. If inflation is no more than gains in productivity, then for all intents it is invisiable. However, that is NOT the case, or should I say other than using Clinton-era heuristics can that be said to be the case. If you agree that spam = porter -house steak then yes, inflation is 2% and that might be on par with productivity. |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by Pine on 01/02/13 at 08:56:22 021C27263F232A364F0 wrote:
I agree with this 10000000000000 %. Stirring the pot of hate, is a useful tool when both side basically have nothing else to differentiate themselves from the other. The politicians can choose to use this or not. They have choosen to use it. In fact, I think the Mitt Ronmey team was floored when thier hate/fear mongering failed to yield the desired results. Of course they perhaps SHOULD have expected it when they cast the hate/fear towards anyone that was not a supported of Mitt only. I didnt leave the party... I was kicked out. ( ok not completely true, I havent been IN the GOP since Regan) |
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Title: Re: Pines - BS thought of the day - the Fiscal Cli Post by srinath on 01/02/13 at 09:12:06 1A282F3E39283F002C3F264D0 wrote:
I recall a lot of criticism levelled @ bush from the Rush "I snort this powder my house keeper sold me to help with my back ache I didn't know it was cocaine" Lame bag and his fellow fear mongers, right after he won his second term ... the criticism was basically how Bush wasn't conservative enough, and the conservatives should take back the WH ... yea, That was the criticism. Disown your man as soon as you drop him in the WH, and say the next guy will be our man. Much like I tried a few weeks ago with Elizabeth warren. Cool. Srinath. |
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