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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1356428503 Message started by Cavi Mike on 12/25/12 at 01:41:43 |
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Title: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Cavi Mike on 12/25/12 at 01:41:43 http://cavimike.com/mikuni01.JPG I think the bore is Teflon coated. I've never seen that before. It's pretty slick. *ba-dum-tss* http://cavimike.com/mikuni02.JPG This is the main benefit a flat-slide has over the round-slide. It's as close to a perfectly smooth bore that you're gonna get from a carburetor. http://cavimike.com/mikuni03.JPG Float bowl removed. I was actually pretty surprised to see plastic floats. http://cavimike.com/mikuni04.JPG The bowl has a nice little access screw so the main jet can be changed without removing the bowl which means you don't have to pull the carb off the bike. That round thing in the bottom right is the pump. http://cavimike.com/mikuni05.JPG A couple close-ups. http://cavimike.com/mikuni06.JPG http://cavimike.com/mikuni07.JPG I think my favorite feature is that white knob. It's the idle adjustment. This is going to come in really handy. http://cavimike.com/mikuni08.JPG It will be a while before I fire up me bike so if you want any more pictures of this I'll be more than happy to snap them and post them up. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/25/12 at 02:24:58 Very nice, aren't new toys fun ? How much did you get it for ? |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Cavi Mike on 12/25/12 at 02:30:54 Oh yeah I love new toys. I paid $250 for it from XCBob's. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Gyrobob on 12/25/12 at 05:20:13 How did you decide on the size? |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/25/12 at 07:47:11 If you have an interest check out the Quad Flow Torque Wing by Thunder Products. I just got it with my latest order from them and am going to test it in my VM carb. It can be used in the TM flat slides as well. www.thunderproducts.com |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Cavi Mike on 12/25/12 at 10:42:53 I was actually looking at the VIP. If this carb does turn out to be too big in the end - which it very well may be - I'm gonna get one of those. It also has a turbulence arrester in it. http://www.thunderproducts.com/VIP.htm |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by paulmarshall on 12/26/12 at 09:56:17 Very Nice. Looking forward to hearing more once installed and road tested. :) |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/26/12 at 11:14:50 1F3D2A35113537395C0 wrote:
You should give Lonn a call at Thunder Products and talk to him about what you are doing and get his take on what might work best for you. He created the products and can point you in the best direction. He is quite the innovator. I have been doing business with him for many years and he has always been very helpful and straightforward. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Gyrobob on 12/26/12 at 11:53:40 0F020D0006115154630 wrote:
These gizmos are worthless 90% of the time. It will be interesting to see how it works out when someone like you who knows what he is doing gives it a valid test, without any kind of a marketing agenda involved. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/28/12 at 02:00:39 744A415C515C51330 wrote:
These gizmos are worthless 90% of the time. It will be interesting to see how it works out when someone like you who knows what he is doing gives it a valid test, without any kind of a marketing agenda involved.[/quote] The theory behind it is the same as the Guide Vanes on the intake of a jet engine, to stabilize and straighten the air flow that results in less turbulence and higher air velocity/volume, boosting performance of the engine. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Gyrobob on 12/28/12 at 04:38:32 3E333C3137206065520 wrote:
These gizmos are worthless 90% of the time. It will be interesting to see how it works out when someone like you who knows what he is doing gives it a valid test, without any kind of a marketing agenda involved.[/quote] The theory behind it is the same as the Guide Vanes on the intake of a jet engine, to stabilize and straighten the air flow that results in less turbulence and higher air velocity/volume, boosting performance of the engine.[/quote] I know the theory. I am just really interested to see what your results are,.. since you have nothing to lose other than the purchase price and a tiny bit of pride if it turns out to be just another gizmo. Most of what you read about these things is generated by those make/market/sell them. You have no agenda like that, so if it doesn't work as advertised, I'm confident you'll let us know in brutally honest terms. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/28/12 at 05:44:11 0C3239242924294B0 wrote:
These gizmos are worthless 90% of the time. It will be interesting to see how it works out when someone like you who knows what he is doing gives it a valid test, without any kind of a marketing agenda involved.[/quote] The theory behind it is the same as the Guide Vanes on the intake of a jet engine, to stabilize and straighten the air flow that results in less turbulence and higher air velocity/volume, boosting performance of the engine.[/quote] I know the theory. I am just really interested to see what your results are,.. since you have nothing to lose other than the purchase price and a tiny bit of pride if it turns out to be just another gizmo. Most of what you read about these things is generated by those make/market/sell them. You have no agenda like that, so if it doesn't work as advertised, I'm confident you'll let us know in brutally honest terms.[/quote] Yep, that is my intent. My only interest is FUNCTION. Some stuff to do this next week or so that has priority but should be able to do a carb swap on one of the S40's after that. Will start with a standard 36VM, then add the UFO, then the Torque Wing. I'm having a prototype header being made now and hope to have it soon. It is 1.65"OD/1.5"ID; standard length and similar shape as stock, with a 10 deg adapter piece similar to what RYCA has. No price details yet. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Cavi Mike on 12/28/12 at 17:13:00 The worst part about the BCB and RYCA exhausts is that horrible bend. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/29/12 at 02:40:49 082A3D220622202E4B0 wrote:
Do you like it left straight or is it the hassle of messing with the small bend piece and would prefer the bend to be part of the header, so it is all one piece ? |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Cavi Mike on 12/29/12 at 04:20:18 It's all about the aesthetics. The kink is an eyesore. If you were gonna design a custom header I think the first thing you should do is eliminate that kink. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/29/12 at 06:18:15 5775627D597D7F71140 wrote:
Well, it does depend on what muffler you use, which may or may not need additional clearance back near the rear axle. That is the point of the kink being made separate from the header, so it can be used or not, depending on your individual needs. Of course the header can be made with the kink built into its primary shape, with the least noticeable being at the headers 2nd bend where it turns back toward the rear. It's all one piece that way and the extra bend would not be an eyesore. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Cavi Mike on 12/29/12 at 06:30:26 Optional for who? Optional for someone who actually wants to put a good aftermarket pipe on there or optional for the idiot that wants to keep his factory pea-shooter with a huge header? Put it this way - if you make it so the header points straight back, I'll buy one. Make it a factory replacement requiring a kink, count me out. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by teabowl13 on 12/29/12 at 07:33:12 I agree about the kink; it looks like a kink... I also think that anyone buying an upgraded, aftermarket header is bound to be using an aftermarket muffler. There would be no point in upgrading the header only to install a big fat factory cannon muffler on the other end. Having said that though, it would also be hard to decide how to change the angle of the exhaust so that it would work with the widest variety of muffler options. Some of those would surely need some sort of adapter anyway, no matter how straight Lancer makes his header. Right? Of course, if the header is a normal single wall pipe, I imagine you could probably bend it very gradually, or have it bent slightly as Lancer is suggesting to accommodate whatever muff you're using and get a straight looking pipe from it... I know I'll be looking at those down the line, Lancer. Let me know when you get them ready!! ;) |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Cavi Mike on 12/29/12 at 07:45:15 The stock header bends up and inwards and fits no pipe except stock. Any other pipe requires it to be kinked and looks horrendous. This is the RYCA setup: http://cavimike.com/kink01.JPG If that's what you prefer, you simply have no taste. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/29/12 at 09:53:37 In my previous comment I was talking about the 10 deg. offset possibly being built into the header so an adapter would not be necessary for using an aftermarket muffler. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Cavi Mike on 12/29/12 at 10:12:22 See, you keep talking about "adding" or "building in" this bend but you just need to change the second bend, not add a third bend. Adding a bend is just gonna make it look like the BCB pipe which also looks terrible. They all look terrible. The problem lies in the second bend in the header, don't add another problem. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Cavi Mike on 12/29/12 at 10:16:59 This is what you need to aim for. No kinks, no added bends, just a different second bend so the pipe can go straight out the back. This is the Raask exhaust for our bike. http://www.raask.com/d36.jpg |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/29/12 at 10:18:15 6745524D694D4F41240 wrote:
That is what I am saying |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Cavi Mike on 12/29/12 at 10:20:02 Then sign me up. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/29/12 at 10:31:25 7D5F48577357555B3E0 wrote:
I will post when I get it and have had a chance to play with it a bit, mark and measure to send back adjustments to be made, then a final prototype to insure all is good. If all goes well I expect it to take at least 4-6 wks for the process. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Cavi Mike on 12/29/12 at 10:37:17 Can this place do double-wall tubing as well to keep the outside diameter of the header close to stock? |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by LANCER on 12/29/12 at 12:13:09 6745524D694D4F41240 wrote:
Don't know but it would surely drive the price up to the range of the Raask pipe. |
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Title: Re: A few pics of my Mikuni TM40 flat-slide pumpe Post by Gyrobob on 12/30/12 at 13:02:41 725047587C585A54310 wrote:
what horrible bend? I'm not sure I understand where this bend is. Here are a couple of pics of my work in progress. Where is that bend? http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh253/Gyrobob_theOriginal/Motorcycle/RYCA%20CS-1%20LS650%20S40%20Savage/Pete02b29Dec2012.jpg http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh253/Gyrobob_theOriginal/Motorcycle/RYCA%20CS-1%20LS650%20S40%20Savage/Pete0129Dec2012.jpg |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Cavi Mike on 12/30/12 at 13:25:05 You can see the one involved with the RYCA kit a few posts up and this is the BCB pipe. This one looks like the bike was laid down and something hit the pipe. http://bluecollarbobbers.com/web/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/Suzuki_Savage_Dr_4b8e2497303d3.jpg |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Cavi Mike on 12/30/12 at 14:57:47 Your pictures didn't show up before but this is what I'm talking about: http://cavimike.com/bend.jpg |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Gyrobob on 12/30/12 at 16:06:25 7755425D795D5F51340 wrote:
I like that bend. It tucks the front of the muffler in close to the bike. The part that matters visually, though, is the side view. I fiddled with it a long time so from the side it looks like there are only two bends: one in front of the cylinder and one in front of the muffler. Aesthetically, from the side there are only two bends with no strange ups or downs. Having the last part of the exhaust parallel to the ground is too harleyish for me. I prefer the last length of the exhaust system to be canted up some. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh253/Gyrobob_theOriginal/Motorcycle/RYCA%20CS-1%20LS650%20S40%20Savage/Pete02bwithlines29Dec2012copy.jpg Some guys do mount the RYCA muffler set up so that the pipe bends up in front of the muffler, then back down for the muffler. That looks less than smooth to me. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh253/Gyrobob_theOriginal/Motorcycle/RYCA%20CS-1%20LS650%20S40%20Savage/faussone101withlines.jpg |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Super Thumper on 12/30/12 at 20:28:05 Isn't the I.D. of the OEM header pipe 1.5"? |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by verslagen1 on 12/30/12 at 22:42:01 7769606C626D716A6B050 wrote:
no, smaller |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by LANCER on 12/31/12 at 03:39:41 The area of a circle is pi x r x r stock header (1.3" ID): 3.14 x .65 x .65 = 1.33 s.i. new header (1.5"): 3.14 x .75 x .75 = 1.77 s, i. other example (1.65" ID): 3.14 x .825 x .825 = 2.14 s.i. 1.3" ID vs 1.5" ID is a 13% diameter increase 1.33 s.i. vs 1.77 s.i. is a 25% area increase 1.3" ID vs 1.65" ID is a 21% diameter increase 1.33 s.i. vs 2.14 s.i. is a 38% area increase So a small increase in diameter yields a larger increase in surface area and tube volume, and that extra volume allows much more air to move through the tube. |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Cavi Mike on 12/31/12 at 04:09:03 Yeah, it's a 2:1 ratio. Doubling the diameter of an exhaust quadruples its area. A 4" exhaust doesn't flow twice as much as a 2" exhaust, it flows 4x as much. |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Super Thumper on 12/31/12 at 07:12:41 I nominate Lancer as professor of the month ;D |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by teabowl13 on 12/31/12 at 07:16:16 HEY PROFESSOR! What kind of metal are you having your header fabricated from? Is it going to be steel? Or Stainless? When you get them ready for production, are you planning to offer different options? Obviously for different prices; stainless would be more expensive... |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by ralfyguy on 12/31/12 at 08:15:27 Stainless is cool, but will discolor quickly, especially in the header area. |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by LANCER on 12/31/12 at 09:47:19 This prototype is mild steel tube but stainless could be an option. I would have to verify that though, I've not talked with him about that yet. Would it be cost effective ? Don't know. The cost of this prototype is not nailed down yet either. I know the cost of the tube & cost per bend but not the machine cost for the steel flange at the top yet. Christmas has slowed everything down of course so we wait. |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Gyrobob on 12/31/12 at 10:31:49 6B78757F607E6C60190 wrote:
Some folks like the specific way stainless colors/discolors because it advertises to everyone it is stainless. With unground but tidy welds, and the many varied shades around the welds, plus the hues from the exhaust heat later, such tubes look like performance machinery, rather than chopper glitz. |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Charon on 12/31/12 at 12:57:39 Lancer is correct - a larger diameter tube will allow a higher flow for the same pressure drop. But there is a side effect (there always is). The larger tube will also allow pressure pulses to reflect back and forth more easily, and those pressure pulses are what makes a straight pipe difficult to tune. There seems to be a perpetual state of confusion between pressure pulsations and back pressure. Remember, there is nothing steady-state about the flows, either in the intake or the exhaust. |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Cavi Mike on 12/31/12 at 13:31:51 "Tuning" exhausts on a 4-stroke is a myth. There is only one good exhaust for a 4-stroke and that's a non-existent one. |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Charon on 12/31/12 at 18:18:06 Perhaps you will find this link - http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/exhaust_system_technology.htm - to be interesting. |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Gyrobob on 12/31/12 at 20:13:47 0D262F3C21204E0 wrote:
An interesting article. It does show that exhaust systems can have a beneficial effect over venting a short pipe to the atmosphere. I'd like to see an article showing how different lengths and diameters on single cylinder motors (or at least individual cylinders on multi-cylinder machines) can be worked for various states of tune for the motor. I'm sure the ideal exhaust pipe length and diameter for a 35 hp 5,000 rpm motor like ours would be very different for a similar motor with a cam, and carb set up for 50 or 60 hp at 7,500 rpm. |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by LANCER on 01/01/13 at 06:07:03 517A73607D7C120 wrote:
Very interesting indeed. Besides the lengthy info about exhaust systems & functions, I also read the writeup on the failure of a secondary drive system in a helicopter, since I spent a lot of time in those wacky machines. All good stuff. |
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Title: Re: Cavi's Mikuni TM40 and Lancer's header thread Post by Charon on 01/01/13 at 16:30:31 I poked around a bit more on that site, and was fascinated by the torque output curve on a single-cylinder engine. I knew it wasn't particularly smooth, but that curve was worse than I thought. There was also some information about belt-drive systems, with a brief reference to one on a Harley. I was interested to see the picture of the toothed belt, broken, with the cause of failure diagnosed as running the belt with inadequate preload (fancy words for too loose). |
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