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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1355538577 Message started by Starlifter on 12/14/12 at 18:29:37 |
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Title: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/14/12 at 18:29:37 Here we go again. Now watch the NRA claim that if these kids had guns this wouldn't have happened. Fox News will be defending the shooter. We have cracked down on library books, cell phones, fertilizer, wearing shoes at airports, fireworks, animal control...but guns?? GUNS are sacred, and so anyone, and I mean ANYONE has the right to carry firearms anywhere, anytime, anyplace, and for any reason in America. let me say there is no such things as "gun rights". There are gun privileges, just like driving a motor vehicle is a privileg... The second amendment is a relic of our colonial days...some day when this country matures, we will realize that. But for now we are at the mercy of the NRA, cowardly politicians, and many people with an unhealthy fetish. Gun "privileges" mean: Regulated - Controled or supervised by means of rules, training, and regulations. No more gun shows with people selling fully automatic firearms out of the trunks of their cars. Gun owners should be trained professionally, as you've seen over and over what happens when guns are not respected. Why would you even think that just anyone can run out and stockpile weapons and ammo without proving some kind of responsibility? The second amendment spoke only of a "Well Regulated Militia". That was the intent in colonial times. In colonial times they all had to attend a monthly drill. All firearm owners were members of the local militia. So you want to be part of the militia? By all means, what part of ORGANIZED, in the words, do you not understand? Sooner or later people in this country WILL DEMAND change...I'd start with licensing every gun owner, requiring a waiting period, a background check, and a number of hours of training. Fire away at me, (as I know the stupid will do)...gun rights fetishists are impossible to talk to...oh and before you say it, you all know that I AM a gun owner, a retired federal LEO with over 40 years of carrying on the job, and range training every three months....I just don't buy into the paranoia of "gun nuts" that they are going to come and take my precious guns away...for starters they are not precious, and secondly stop listening to the fund raising paranoia of the NRA..in my opinion a despicable right-wing domestic terrorist organization. Did you notice that every this happens, someone invariably suggests that everyone should be armed. Just what we need . Everyone pulling out their guns and shooting at the same time ... It's of course no use. Nobody in our federal government is going to cross the NRA. The NRA wants to arm EVERYBODY, crazies included . There were 10,750 gun deaths in the USA this past year. That's roughly five times the number of people killed on 9/11...God Bless America". By contrast In Canada there were 52 gun deaths (most of them in hunting accidents). And eight people were killed in Great Briton...Shame on this country...at times like this it is embarrassing to be an American. If your first reaction to this shooting spree is to think "Oh Sh!t"...Obama/liberals are going to try to "take/grab our guns", your priorities as a human being are sick. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/14/12 at 20:09:20 If your first reaction to this shooting spree is to think "Oh Sh!t"...Obama/liberals are going to try to "take/grab our guns", your priorities as a human being are sick I think you're the only one who would think that's what someone's first thought would be so look in the mirror sicko. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/14/12 at 20:16:56 There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US. No gun law or ammo law is going to work now. That toothpaste is out of the tube. Stop chasing rabbits. If you could wave a magic wand and make all the guns disappear, okay fine, but you can't do that. Guns are everywhere. We focused on guns after columbine and we got what? Other columbines. I have no easy answer, but listening to network news anchors and publicity hungry politicians demand more gun laws is not an answer even worth discussing right now. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/14/12 at 20:22:58 No other option, we're gonna have to arm every 3-4 and 5 year old with 6 shot pistols and from 6 on they get a semi automatic. Only option, we cant spend $$ on safety net and support style programs that will help the people on the edge slowly back away from that edge, and we cant stop guns or bullets from flying. The cheapest option, which the repugs will agree to, just hand every kid that walks into a school a gun. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Trippah on 12/14/12 at 20:42:34 I think we should respectfully bow our heads in shared sorrow for all those who died and lost loved ones in CT. It is not appropriate to discuss political isssues such as gun control at this time (and lets face it, this is hardley a rare occurance anymore). If there is ever a break in this ongoing madness, then let us discuss gun control. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Dj12midnit on 12/14/12 at 21:29:35 You had me till you started name calling everyone who has a different opinion. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by thumperclone on 12/14/12 at 22:18:31 over 32,000 auto deaths (2011) 3 times the stat you quote for gun deaths driving is a privielage,its licensed,regulated,taxed etc. but people still die |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WD on 12/14/12 at 22:34:51 Mentally ill and used his mother's guns, not his own since he legally could not have them, underage and, I'll repeat, mentally ill. Gun or no gun, he was going on a killing spree. There was a report out of China today, same thing, but a knife instead of a gun, dead is dead. In the middle east it would be a bomb instead of a gun. And since you can download all kinds if improvised weapons and explosives recipes (not to mention nerve agent recipes)... he'd have found a way. Will there be some form of token "gun amnesty" like California had when so called assault weapons were banned? Quite likely. Will a federal version work better than the state one did? Nope. That horse left the barn in the 1860s. Do I have a "lot" of guns? I don't know, most of them are collector pieces made before WW2. A couple are 100% exempt as antiques (pre-1898) others are exempt based on being black powder (no background check or registration required, per federal regulations). Would a trained armed teacher or campus security officer have made a difference? We'll never know, they follow the federal and state gun free zone regulations. So, since gun control or lack there of is a moot point, why don't we just step back, think about those families, and maybe, just maybe, take a look at our own lives and see if something is a bit "off". The shooter got that way for a reason, most likely a treatable or preventable reason... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/14/12 at 22:59:32 "over 32,000 auto deaths (2011) 3 times the stat you quote for gun deaths driving is a privielage,its licensed,regulated,taxed etc. but people still die" ...and your point is?? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by thumperclone on 12/14/12 at 23:22:29 0C2B3E2D3336392B3A2D5F0 wrote:
regulations dont stop people from dying |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/15/12 at 06:04:23 So, since gun control or lack there of is a moot point, why don't we just step back, think about those families, and maybe, just maybe, take a look at our own lives and see if something is a bit "off". The shooter got that way for a reason, most likely a treatable or preventable reason... an excellent point WD. There are millions and millions of guns in homes around this country. It would be interesting to add up the number of guns people on this forum have in their homes. I have three. Gun control in the sense that it could prevent things like this from happening is a pipe dream. However, reaching out to someone who may feel isolated is not a pipe dream. Everyone of us can do that today. One kind word can make all the difference to someone struggling with thoughts in their heads they know are not right, but are powerless to stop. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by strang on 12/15/12 at 06:26:16 Wake up and smell the coffee America - and the brew is gun control. Worrying about the state of society is all very well but a red herring - there will always be wackos and psychopaths and people who get mentally ill. In London they lose it and stab someone - in America they shoot dozens of people. The difference? Access to guns. Any stuff about toothpaste is not thinking about the way laws have always curbed human behaviour - it doesn't have to be a blanket ban to have some positive effect, it can be gradual. Tighten up your laws from now on and move in the right direction. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/15/12 at 07:56:47 3C37373E323D3C2627530 wrote:
you are right about bowing our heads, but there is no better time to discuss gun control, as when the horror of something like this is fresh.[/quote] Not if you ask the gun nuts ... "gun control is hitting your target man" ... I cant even discuss this, We need to clamp down on guns, bullets, and everything else that is a weapon of mass murder. Without a gun he'd have gone on a knife rampage, or a baseball bat rampage, or a cabbage rampage ... That means 2 people dead 5 injured maximum ... cant stop people from going berserk, we can limit the damage. BTW it took 150+ years to get here, it may well take us 150 years to get back If we go in that direction. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/15/12 at 08:25:20 All the shootings in the past year have one thing in common, the shooters were mentally ill! We as a people had better address the mental health of this nation, it is still thought of as taboo to have a family member mentally ill, mental facilities are always the first cuts to budgets, and recognition of mentally unstable people is non-existent. Many times the person is ignored, pushed to the side, or looked at as somebody elses problem. Meanwhile treatment centers become harder to find, and treatment itself gets cutdown to handing out pills... If you own a gun and have a family member, or friend that shows signs of mental illness, secure your guns! Don't think "Oh he's Ok, just a little strange." protect him/her and those around him/her.. 60% of this nations prisons are the mentally ill! Think about it, a gun is just a tool, if not a gun, it would be a bomb, a machete, or like in denver a can of gasoline... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by kimchris1 on 12/15/12 at 08:30:22 It is times like this that our emotions may get the best of us. I for one am not for taking all our guns. I don't believe that is the answer. Remember they tried with prohobition. That didn't stop people from attaing alcohol, nor would it prevent ones from attaing guns. Exactly what is the answer? Enjoy every precious moment with your loved ones.. Life is precious and as we all know, it can end in a blink of an eye. Peace and love to all. kim |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by thumperclone on 12/15/12 at 08:56:18 6962626B6768697372060 wrote:
Apples to oranges.[/quote] both are human inventions and both kill when operated by humans |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by strang on 12/15/12 at 09:44:35 The same old bonehead arguments - cars, bombs etc. There is no denying the facts: Yes people will always find lethal weapons even if they are illegal. But countries with gun control/low gun ownership rates don't have regular occurrences of primary school children being massacred with a hand gun. They maybe have one a generation (eg. Norway), America has one a season. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/15/12 at 09:52:00 Any stuff about toothpaste is not thinking about the way laws have always curbed human behaviour - it doesn't have to be a blanket ban to have some positive effect, it can be gradual. Tighten up your laws from now on and move in the right direction. Tighten up what laws? What law could have been in effect that would have stopped this? Tell me. I'll save you the trouble; there isn't one. Gun laws are for law abiding citizens not someone mentally ill bent on killing. Guns don't have an expiration date; they pretty remain usable for hundreds of years. Remember there are HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of guns in US homes. There is no 'gun law' that would have stopped this so stop thinking along that lines. Retread is right about mental illness. Almost by definition, the shooters of Columbine, Va-Tech and now Ct are mentally ill. My wife and I were talking and wondering what role violent video games like Assassin’s Creed plays. Obviously, not everyone who plays Assassins Creed turns into a mass murderer, but did all 3 of these mass murderers play Assassins Creed? (or some variation) |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/15/12 at 10:07:28 Just a thought,.. but, what kind of gun shop recommends these weapons to a middle-aged kindergarten teacher, in a quiet middle-class neighborhood?... If a home defense weapon were needed at all,.. I'd have steered her to a 38 snubby... I wouldn't try to sell her a Hayabusa either... :-?... Maybe not illegal,.. but very irresponsible... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/15/12 at 10:11:34 True Sew, but some motorcycle shops sell crotch rockets to 16 year olds too..... I'm going to get a book named, Columbine, The Book by Dave Cullen. http://www.davecullen.com/columbine.htm |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/15/12 at 10:19:00 6A7C6B766E7B766D190 wrote:
You don't "steer" anyone, it is what the gun owner is comfortable with, a 9mm is a easy to use weapon for a woman, trigger pull, and weight.. The only one responsible is HER, she should have secured her weapons from her crazy son... There we go BACK to the real cause, MENTAL HEALTH! Guns will always be there, stolen, borrowed, owned, and sold. Ban all guns? Good luck.. The only thing I can see that might slow these tragedys is gun dealers being trained to recognize mental illness, and having mental health professionals register the mentally ill, requiring background check on weapons to include that data base.. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/15/12 at 10:23:10 Quote:
...cough,bullsh!t!,cough cough... ;D... ;D ;D ;D... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/15/12 at 11:29:30 I'm with Retread. We have to look at who does these massacres. The guys who shot Gabby Giffords, the theater in Colorado, the Va. Tech shooter - all have one thing in common - so crazy that just looking at them gives you the willies. Dangerously mentally ill people used to be identified, treated if possible, and if not possible, they were locked up in institutions. Today, with our PC world and worrying about perhaps stepping on their "rights", they roam at will. When family members are in denial that have have a bozo in their midst, they should be liable to the victims, just like the host of a party can be liable when he turns a drunk loose, leaving the party and someone is killed as the drunk drives home. Privacy laws that are a joke protect these animals, and put the rest of us at risk. When a school counselor gets wind of emails that are bizzare, he/she should immediately be able and required to call the cops. I am not a "gun nut", although I own one. Frankly, I haven't fired it in probably 10 years. But making handguns illegal accomplishes as much as making cocaine and heroin illegal - if a carzy wants any illegal substance he can get it. If you want to ban something that does twist people, figure out how to ban the horrible video games that the kids watch today - endless hours of killing, blood and gore. Do you expect a kid to grow up watching this stuff, and then separate fiction from reality? And lastly, again, where are the parents of these kids? And don't give me the "single mom" sob story - maybe she shouldn't have been a single mom in the first place. That's another whole issue. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by verslagen1 on 12/15/12 at 11:54:32 So how can we prevent this in the future? Current status, if a law is made on gun ban, only the law abiding will be w/out guns. If a law is made to ID those with mental issues, how many won't be on the list? (m/c... dangerous, action flicks... dangerous, video games... dangerous, TV... dangerous, divorced... dangerous, tea party... dangerous) |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by strang on 12/15/12 at 12:00:16 Nothing will stop this reoccurring with regular horror except strong gun control. ie. less gun ownership. And yes it would be political suicide, so it won't happen. So yes you guys are right - might as well set up the next condolescence thread and post the date for 3 months from now when this happens again again and the rest of the world stares in horror and then just shakes their head as the same lines are trotted out and the status quo returns. I am 40 years old and I can only remember 2 of these incidents in the whole of Europe in my lifetime. Must be dozens in the states now. What is the reason for this? More guns. I'm not anti guns - I've fired one a couple of times and it was hell fun. But I don't feel the need to have one at home and I'm glad none of my neighbours are legally allowed to either. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/15/12 at 12:33:35 "so look in the mirror sicko".WM Ditto, freak. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/15/12 at 12:36:13 Oh yeah, 2nd amendment and all that...What? The Founders of our nation might be wrong about something? See slavery for the precedent. I am not calling for a ban on guns, myself. I do believe in the words "well regulated. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/15/12 at 13:18:13 Latest news at 4:15 PM Esatern time is that all of the victims were shot multiple times by RIFLE fire; not from a handgun. For what it's worth. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/15/12 at 13:19:12 I cant believe I'm saying this but its come to the point I would like to see every teacher carry concealed. They're the only ones who are in immediate position to protect their students. This says what our country has become but thats the way it is. We have armed Marshalls on our airliners, we need armed teachers in our schools. All the gun laws arent going to do any good. We need trained professionals on the scene to stop the violence immediately. Have the teachers train with local Law Enforcement, go through extensive phychological testing and training and pay them for what they're doing and deserve.. Our children are are most precious resource, no matter what it takes, what extremes we have to go to, we have to protect them and insure they get the education they deserve. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paladin. on 12/15/12 at 13:24:44 For the First Annual Rodney King Riot you could know who had guns -- they stayed home. Those who did not have guns left the city. After the Riot there was a case against the LAPD for not protecting citizens. They won the case by telling the court that it is *NOT* the job of the police to protect anyone. The job of police is to clean up after and see who did what. If you want to be safe, you have to protect yourself. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/15/12 at 13:29:49 Midnight - Not a bad idea, but unworkable. Teachers are among the most liberal groups in society, and darn few would go along. Now, maybe same male football coach at a high school might, but certainly not the average elementary school teacher, most of whom are women. Nothing wrong with women gun owners - my wife is one, and at age 64 she can still shoot the eyes out of a snake at 30 yards with a Webley .380. But she's a very atypical gal in many ways. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/15/12 at 13:38:42 Jerry what would work? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/15/12 at 14:09:45 I wish I knew. It's a society problem, not a weapons problem. Kids today play horrible viseo games, full of death and destruction. So many split homes where kids go home to an empty house after school and are left to their own devices for hours until some tired and frazzled mother then has to deal with all of the domestic chores after work, and no father present. Church attendance falling drastically, especially among families with children. Our society has fallen off of the cliff. At the risk of sounding like the old guy who isn't "with it" anymore, I was thinking of my high school yearbook pictures of us seniors. I went to a mixed race, inner city high school, but every yound man, black and white, in those pages of pictures looked sharp, had a suit on for his picture ( a teacher actually lent one kid, white, by the way ) a suit coat and tie for his picture because the parents couldn't afford one. But we all looked normal and sharp. We had a dress code - no ankle length black trench coats like the Columbine shooters wore would have been tolerated - you had to come to school shaven with a normal haircut, and boys had to wear a belt on their trousers. Girls' skirts had to be no shorter than the middle of the knee. Shorts were not allowed, even though obviously the old school had no A/C in the early 1960s. We were taught to be normal. We've just lost it as a society. I was on our school board for one term 20 years ago when all of this diversity crap began. The motto of our nation is E Pluribus Unum, which is translated One From Many - that's what the country used to be; one people with many roots. Now, we celebrate diversity - what crap. We are afraid to say Merry Christmas because someone might be offended at a heritage that made our country great but is now considered offensive. That's why I REFUSE to use the words African American. They spit in the face of the proud black people who work hard, raise good families, serve and die in our military - these folks are Americans without the need for an adjective. I am not a Swiss American - I'm an American, plain and simple and so are my fellow citizens who just happen to have a different color skin. So if we are ever to fix this, we first must fix society and get back to an appreciation of family, country, discipline, good order, pride in our country first, and another hundred qualities that we've lost. It sickens me when some of our fellow on this forum insult our president, call him a criminal or an idiot, be he GWB or Obama - both of them, while miles apart politically, are good men who did, or are doing their best. We have lost respect for the most basic of American values in the rush toward political correctness. Sorry to preach, but you did ask. I know of no simple one liner to fix this. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/15/12 at 14:22:24 And, I often think of a wide receiver on our high school team who happened to be a black kid. He was killed in a fire fight in Vietnam in 1967, at a time when I was still in college, probably hooting it up, with the time difference between here and there of about 12 hours, as I forget the precise difference. It bothers me to this day that this guy, and dear friend to whom I threw many a football died while I was probably partying. He was an American soldier - as I would later be, and no other description need apply. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by mpescatori on 12/15/12 at 15:09:15 With reference to Starlifter's opening post, he is, alas, 100% correct. From the point of view of a European, and an Italian at that, it is a sorry thing to say there are more murders in NYC in one night alone, than in all of the mafia-ridden South of Italy in a year. Think about it. From the point of view of a European, and an Italian at that, it is absurd that there are, according to FBI and BATF statistics, 88 firearms per 100 citizens... and that includes newborn babies, old-age pensioners and all those living abroad whose gun rights are waived in respect for host nation regulations. From the point of view of a European, and an Italian at that, it is absurd that, as Starlifter correctly said, the 2nd amendment is quoted only in its second half, and ignored in its first half. You want to know what "gun control" means? Go to your local vehicle licensing office and ask what happens if you buy a car and simply drive out, no plates, no insurance, and expect to drive home happily "exercising your constitutional right to freedom of movement"... ;D Yup! 3738343E3538333F382F3A382F5D0 wrote:
Alas, Jerry's spot on. Ever heard the old adage "Too mant rights mean no rights at all" ? When my son was 6 I had to wrestle off his cold fingers the CDROM to "Grand Theft Auto" and prove him, playing the game, what he was actually doing, was rehearsing and practicing to be a robber, hijacker and fiend. An assassin and cop-killer. I'm sure that for every single white or grey-haired Savage rider there are a few hundred dozen crotch rocket riders whose previous vehicle was a skateboard. I'd love to ride the US coast-to-coast, riding solo. I'd absolutely, positively love it. It scares me to death to think that I can fall victing of a roadside shooting simply because I split lanes or stopped at the lights when turning right, or talked back at the angry white 300 lb. mama on a pickup when she flips me the one-fingered salute. From the point of view of a European ... THAT is how the world sees the US... unfortunately. Sharpen up, shape up, or be prepared, it won't be nice, but someday, someone will march up to Capitol Hill and will tell the protesters "I will fix things for you, and I will make America great again!" and they will all cheer and he'll win the elections with an 80% landslide. It happened in Europe, alright. Three times. Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, in that order. And Fidel Castro in Cuba. Sharpen up, shape up, or be prepared. Gun control by Federal Law would be a good start, whether you like it or not. PS Anywhere in Europe, if you have a mentally ill living inhouse, you CANNOT have guns. So much for so much. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/15/12 at 15:26:02 ... and how much more ridiculous would we look, if we armed all the teachers in schools?... We are in a spiral of Catch-22... We all need guns to defend against guns, and more and bigger guns as more gun crimes happen... It's a lot like everybody wanting a big, safe, SUV so we don't get crushed by some idiot in a big SUV... Eventually we're all driving tanks with bazookas and machine guns,.. and we are as safe as Syria... Escalation is not a solution... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/15/12 at 19:07:17 Only in America can gun ownership be a right and healthcare be a privilege. ...God bless America. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/15/12 at 19:27:59 "We are afraid to say Merry Christmas because someone might be offended at a heritage that made our country great but is now considered offensive." Ah Jerry, you know that it is perfectly okay to say "Merry Christmas" to anyone. Liberal, conservative, Christian, Jew, Moslem, atheist...and you will be answered in kind with a warm and heartfelt greeting. I am so sick and tired of all this divisive right-wing conservative, pot-stirring hyperbole about nonsense like this...."War on Christmas" indeed. It's a little early Jerry, but a very Merry Christmas to you and yours. *Star |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/16/12 at 05:28:43 I'd love to ride the US coast-to-coast, riding solo. I'd absolutely, positively love it. It scares me to death to think that I can fall victing of a roadside shooting simply because I split lanes or stopped at the lights when turning right, or talked back at the angry white 300 lb. mama on a pickup when she flips me the one-fingered salute. The reality is Mpes, the situation you describe there is extremely rare and blown out of proportion when it does happen. The vast, vast majority of gun violence in the US is in inner city urban areas. Talk to any of us before you came and in 15 minutes, you’d know where to avoid or at least think twice about. You should ride the US. It’s an absolutely beautiful and awe inspiring nation. I knew a guy from Hungary who summed it up best when he said, in Europe for the most part, you go to see the cities. In the US, for the most part, you go to look at the scenery. Now, you are correct, you don’t have this fear in Europe (yet anyway…) I was in your Italian town of Bergamo (home of the Lord’s Supper) for 2 days and walked around everywhere. I never one time felt fear no matter where I went. Other than not finding a lot of people who spoke English once you got off the beaten path (which is where I like to go,) I had a great time. You can’t be quite so cavalier when wandering around a major US city because of race relations which you don’t have in Europe to any degree right now. However, you are beginning to get a taste of it in Paris. If you came here and road coast to coast, I think you’d understand a little of why we put up with the things we do and why we are all so passionate (on both sides of the issue) when it comes to protecting what each of us sees as America. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/16/12 at 06:15:31 Star - I used the Merry Christmas analogy to make a point, and it's no9t that there is a "war on Christmas". Rather, my point is cohesiveness and oneness is being lost. Our law firm uses a payroll service to do our payroll. As managing partner, I get to go over there twice a month and pick up the checks for the entire office. When I went Friday, the lady at the desk said the typical Happy Holidays to me, to which I smiled and replied, "Merry Christmas". She smiled back , and said that she is not allowed to say that to guests in the office, as someone might be offended. That's my point - we coddle this absurb notion that we should somehow celebrate diversity, rather than come together as ONE nation, ONE from many - the ideas that made us great once upon a time. And, that one has a Christian heritage. I'm certainly not asying that other faiths, or no faith, shouldn't be respected - I only disrespect one "faith", Satanism, as I view it as a very evil cult. But absent that, I don't care what someone is. But when in Rome, do as the Romans do. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/16/12 at 09:47:33 For us atheists,... Happy Holy-Days, or Merry Christ-Mass... are equivalent... I don't see the beef for Christians... either is applicable... I do suppose for Muslims or Jews,... a Christ-Mass is exclusive... Jews seem open minded enough to accept things for what they're worth... and not take offense... Muslims are way too touchy... ... and Christians are overly whiny about their right to exclude... As far as I'm concerned,... you can all just bicker amongst yourselves... Go on about it too much,.. and Santa will leave a lump of coal your stocking... Happy Festivus everyone... ;D... http://img.wonderhowto.com/img/41/71/63428706387590/0/celebrate-festivus-2010-seinfeld-anti-christmas-holiday.w240.jpg |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Drifter on 12/16/12 at 10:04:53 Does anyone really need a bushmaster/m16 with 30 round clips??? Unless you want to kill some first graders or shoot wolves or hogs from choppers......gun control is NOT the answer but 30-100 round clips or durms...why? How many of those kids would be alive today if we had 10 round clips...a small price to pay for childrens lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree society is the problem, are there any games that are not about killing anymore? When the greedy rich decided to ship good paying jobs overseas causing both parents to work was the beginning of the end for 2 parent familys and what we have today is the result. This is America today and the forceable future folks......stay safe? :o |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/16/12 at 10:09:47 Drifter - Sorry, but I know lots of families where both parents are employed, many of them in professions, who have wonderful families. I don't know aobut your comment about greedy rich sending jobs overseas - both of my parents worked in the 1950s and1960s to barely make ends meet in our lower middle class family. Long before any "job exporting". Two of the female lawyers in my former firm are married to physicians - hardly the victims of job exporting. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/16/12 at 10:12:17 And for what it's worth, I do support the assault weapons ban. It was interesting to me how the anti handgun crowd immediately jumped on this story, assuming that handguns were used to murder these people. It sounds like Lanza's mother may have been a nut too - why in the world did she own all of these weapons? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WD on 12/16/12 at 10:27:22 Drifter, they come in handy on the farm for feral pigs and coyotes, not by helicopter but while walking. They are pack/herd species that are doing a lot of damage to my gardens, orchards, deer herd, duck habitat, wild turkey flocks... I do have a good number of guns here, each with a specialized purpose. No different to me switching from heavy centerfire to rimfire than if I was to switch from a framing/roofing hammer in favor of a trim/finish hammer. I don't mow my lawn with the 14' rough cut mower, I don't hunt deer with a .22 short. I could, but there are better tools for those tasks. Colonel, you are more than welcome to come riding in TN. Just fly into Nashville or into Little Rock instead of Memphis. Memphis is NOT safe for tourists, hasn't been for a long time. Makes the criminals in DC, Chicago and Detroit look like rank amateurs. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/16/12 at 10:33:21 When the greedy rich decided to ship good paying jobs overseas causing both parents to work was the beginning of the end for 2 parent I think it was WWII that started that. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Demin on 12/16/12 at 12:06:58 I usually stay out of politics and help people work on their bikes here. I was raised as a hunter at 11 years old I knew how to use a handgun,shotgun and a rifle.And was shown what they would do.As a little kid I was TAUGHT to not even point a toy gun at something or someone.I have guns and like it's been said there are different ones for different needs.I got my butt beat on a regular basis as a kid(usually deserved it).I don't hate the world for it.I still don't point it at anything unless it's my target.If you break into my home/shop I will shoot you,not because I want to shoot/kill something.I'm not giving you the chance to do it to me..I do carry.AT TIMES.I don't go looking for trouble though. I was raised watching the three stooges and the likes.I knew if you hit somebody in the head with a hammer,it would hurt or kill them.That's what I was TAUGHT. I believe it starts at home.Raise your kids with manners.And beat their butts when they need it(not abuse them though). Correct me if I'm wrong on this,but I think 30 round clips and stuff ARE illegal. If you've ever been attacked by a wild animal(while plowing fields in my case)you know it's good to have a powerful sidearm.A wild boar will kill you in a second. Where does it end?Take every last gun.Then it'll be knives.... I don't know. But I know where it should start...AT HOME!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WD on 12/16/12 at 12:39:28 Ban on high cap mags expired a few ears ago. I know I can buy 250 round dual feed drum ones at the shows down here. But since I have zero interest in warping another rifle barrel... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/16/12 at 12:42:23 675552434455427D51425B300 wrote:
Web you're right, it was WWII that put women to work. You can beat and torture a child and turn him into a wild animal but the majority of mental illness is caused by chemical imbalance. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/16/12 at 12:48:42 Aurora, CO & Newtown, CT - The oddity is that both fathers of the of the shooters were potential witnesses in the LIBOR scandals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libor_scandal hell of a coincedence! |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Demin on 12/16/12 at 12:50:45 1506420 wrote:
See what I know.I thought they were.Didn't know it changed. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Drifter on 12/16/12 at 15:00:01 I have hunted many kinds of animals for my entire life..never needed a 30 round clip for any of them! Most were 1 shot kills thats what being a hunter means not spraying lead hoping something runs into one!! I agree his mother must have been a bit off thinking she needed a bushmaster.... ::) I used an M16 it was for killing people....just like what happened to 26 people in newtown. NO one needs this type of fire power for defence in the home!! This is a turning point for me, we no longer live in a country where right and wrong is understood so the gov needs to limit these high round clips and force anyone buying a gun to have training on how it works and some basic moral guidence! |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/16/12 at 15:10:24 We must certainly be the laughingstock of nations that have much more sensible controls over firearms than we do. We seem to others a nation of war mongering violence prone nuts - and we've purposely made it that way. We spend SIXTY PERCENT of our national budget on defense..death tools. SIXTY PERCENT and yet not even the TINIEST mention of that bloat while discussing cuts in Medicare and Social Security. The NRA currently has Ted Nugent sitting on their Board of Directors, Nugent has advocated the assassination of Barack Obama on at least three seperate occasions yet the NRA continues to allow him to sit on their Board and speak for the organization. The NRA is the most dangerous domestic terrorist organization in America. Before anything can ever be done to curb gun violence in this nation the NRA must be dealt with..banned, dismantled, sued, ridiculed, fought against with seething righteous anger. It must go and be forever banned. Then the politicians can address gun issues from the perspective of intelligence, common sense, and the will of the people without having to bow and scrape to this gang of thugs. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WD on 12/16/12 at 17:51:29 Then the politicians can address gun issues from the perspective of intelligence, common sense, and the will of the people without having to bow and scrape to this gang of thugs. :-? Has someone from the Blaine WA customs post been sending you some of B.C.s best? The people in this country who HAVE intelligence and common sense don't get into politics. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/17/12 at 01:05:51 A tiny Texas school district may be the first in the nation to pass a law specifically allowing teachers and staff to pack heat when classes begin later this month. Trustees at the Harrold Independent School District approved a district policy change last October so employees can carry concealed firearms to deter and protect against school shootings, provided the gun-toting teachers follow certain requirements. Superintendent David Thweatt told FOXNews.com the policy was initiated because of safety concerns. “We have had employees assaulted before by people in the last several years,” Thweatt said. “I think that safety is big concern. We are seeing a lot of anger in society.” He wouldn’t comment further on the nature of the assaults. The Texas superintendent linked gun-free zones with the uprising of school shootings in recent years. “When you make schools gun-free zones, it’s like inviting people to come in and take advantage,” Thweatt told FOXNews.com. In order for teachers and staff to carry a pistol, they must have a Texas license to carry a concealed handgun; must be authorized to carry by the district; must receive training in crisis management and hostile situations and must use ammunition that is designed to minimize the risk of ricochet in school halls. Thweatt said the small community is a 30-minute drive from the sheriff’s office, leaving students and teachers without protection. He said the district’s lone campus sits 500 feet from heavily trafficked U.S. 287, which could make it a target. The kindergarten through 12th grade school district is home to 110 students. Thweatt said officials researched the policy and considered other options for about a year before approving the policy change. He said the district also has various other security measures in place to prevent a school shooting. “The naysayers think [a shooting] won’t happen here,” Thweatt said. “If something were to happen here, I’d much rather be calling a parent to tell them that their child is OK because we were able to protect them.” He told FOXNews.com he doesn’t think students will think twice about the new policy. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/17/12 at 04:35:51 I was expecting starry and pescatori to chime in with the "guns are evil, they kill kids" mantra. Standard, baseless, liberal screed,.. never does have a basis in reality. I thought it almost funny how pescatori made comments about mussolini, hitler, franco, and castro,... all of whom made gun control an immediate national law as soon as they took power. They knew full well they needed a disarmed citizenry in order to kill citizens whenever they needed to. A few cogent thoughts come to mind: "Disarming innocent people does not protect innocent people." Morgan Freeman, noted actor and liberal, offered these thoughts,.. note the last sentence: "It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody. CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next. You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news." |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/17/12 at 07:23:01 Look at the news stories breaking this morning about how crazy the mother of the shooter was. She was one of those "preppers", hoarding food, weapons and ammo for the "coming collapse" of society. The shooter at age 20 had no jog - spent his days in two adjoining bedrooms playing violent computer games. She took both her sons to the gun range often - nothing wrong with that in itself, unless the range people should have had suspicions when, or of, they saw bizzare behavior out of this so-called family. The mother never allowed anyone, family or neighbors to enter her home. Although she was in a dice playing club in the community, when it came her turn to host, she always found an excuse to make another member host instead. Sorry, Midnight and JOG, but when people are crazy, they are crazy, and maybe the community at large there needs to ask itself why someone didn't try to help these people with their paranoia. Couple all of this together with the fact that the shooter had mild autism, was a recluse, etc., etc. and you had the recipe for disaster cooking for a long time. Maybe it's time we, as a society, look out for our neighbors, and when we have people like this in our midst, take positive action to alert authorities, get them some help, before the blow up happens. The slippery slope of mental illness often starts with this paranoia toward society, politics and "collapse". Even the shooter's brother hadn't seen him in a few years. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by mpescatori on 12/17/12 at 07:59:18 6F515A474A474A280 wrote:
Gyrobob must think I've something against him... actually, I don't, in fact, I couldn't care less. On the other hand, when you learn to think of "history" in 100-year blocks,rather than 4-year Presidential terms, "history" comes to have a whole new meaning. Hitler, Mussolini et al did not outlaw guns to kill off thier kind, in fact, they didn't ban anything at all; for your inforation, Gyrobob, there were possibly more (hand)guns in fascist Italy than in liberal England at the time, and they did come in handy once the Resistance started in 1943. And I'll drop it off here for the sake of your reputation. What does attract my attention, on the other hand, is your defining my feelings as "standard, baseless, liberal screed". OK; I had to look up "screed" to make sure you hadn't mistyped the word. "Standard" has many meanings, one of which is equivalent to FLAG, so I'll take that as your subconscious acknowledgement that you agree with me. "Liberal"? I am afraid you haven't got a clue to what "liberal" means, unless you mistake it with "libertarian" or "foolish" or whatever other completely wrong adjective... But "Baseless"? Baseless my donkey's tushy! I am counting bodies >:( and you had better start counting them yourself ! As for touring the US, some of you may remember I did tour the US - the Southwest - in June/July 2008, and did have the pleasure to meet Verslagen and Paladin on that occasion. Did I feel at risk? Dou you see gun racks in pickups in downtown Averageville? :-X I am not afraid of guns, I've been "enjoying" weapons of all sorts and sizes since the age of 19 and I'll be 53 in two weeks. I have a number of handguns in the home, none of which can be easily got at, because my house is not at risk of burglary. (I live on the 5th floor, have an armored front door and it's jolly hard to climb 45ft up a brick wall with your bare hands ...) I have been employed to keep the peace, and I didn't like it, not because I didn't like the job, but when you are Officer Commanding a Company of recruits, anything can happen and it's always your fault :P So I was lucky there. All in all, Gun Control can be applied as the most basic, simple and easy to use rule, just do as you do with cars: - you need a driver's license -> you need a shooter's license -> go get trained at a certified shooting range -> train the trainers and certify them too. - you want a car? License it. You want a gun? Declare it at the Sheriff's Office. - You want to drive on the open road ? Get insurance. You want to carry in public? Get insurance. Else, get a "sports" permit which allows you to go to the shooting range, but when in the car the gun must be disassembled and ammo kept in a separate container. I'm not saying "file the people", I'm just saying "as you do for cars, do for guns". And if people with Greek lamb chop names stopped offending Forum Members, reading his posts would be more pleasant, too. :) |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/17/12 at 08:13:54 It was my turn to teach our Sunday School class yesterday and Sandy Hook was a topic that was too big not to bring up, especially since we were due to go over the Slaughter of the Innocents found in Matthew. After I thought about it for a while, the approach I took was to ask everyone to think back how it was when the germ theory of disease was first presented. It was not embraced for a long time, in fact it wasn’t until Lister solved a potential disaster in the silk worm industry in the early to middle 1800’s did it begin to gain traction. I think the reason it was slow to be accepted is because the doctors of the time didn’t believe what they couldn’t see. ( a broken leg is easy to accept, it’s right in front of you and the pain is manifested, rather loudly) Oh sure, they understood there were things smaller than what their eyes could see (they had early microscopes), but when you are talking about changing behavior and techniques that go back years and years, it’s not easy. In fact, it’s a slow process. So, I asked the question is our society’s stigma regarding mental health the equivalent of doctor’s slow embrace of the germ theory years ago? Should we begin to understand just how fragile the psyche is for some people and what it is that pushes them over the edge, so to speak? For example, a diabetic is fully aware certain behaviors have severe consequences. In the future, will we be able to identify certain mental health conditions where outside influences like violent games or large social groups of competitive adolescences are just as deadly as a Snickers bar to a diabetic? I think we’d all answer that yes, at some point in the future, we’ll probably understand that. The conclusion we came to is that time marches on regardless if we start working on something today or 10 years from now. Time still passes. If we wait 10 years, we’ve lost those 10 years and all the benefits that individuals could have gained. Bottom line, start taking mental health issues more seriously and work to remove the stigma associated with it. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/17/12 at 08:13:58 Mental health problems, still the main reason for these shootings.. The nation has cut mental health facilities, treatment, and recognition to the bone, then expects all to be fine in a society that lives on violence.. We worship war, we push toy guns on our children, as soon as they are old enough give them real ones, hold our military above all else, have an abundance of violent video games that mimick war, killing, decapitation, and all out apocalypse.. Children are trained killers, we all have access to weapons capable of killing in mass quanity. We have a news media that feeds on tragedy, reports for days on every aspect, every detail of mass shootings, government overthrow, war, natural disaster, and we get that information minutes after it happens.. Then we wonder WHY these things happen? Jesus, its a wonder they don't happen everyday! We all must be some kind of special stupid... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/17/12 at 08:37:23 I think mental health issues aren't just the main cause of these massacres, they are virtually the sole cause. At the risk of repetition, we have to, as fellow citizens, dp something positive when we see ill people in our midst. They need help, but won't/can't go get it themselves. They don't perceive their own issues as anything wrong with them. Personally, I think that paranoia is real, especially among the conspiracy nuts, preppers, and other folks who practice or demonstrate such bizzare attitudes and behavior. They are not normal - their perceptions of the world and others around them are warped. They need immediate help before they slip deeper into real mental illness. Everyone who turns a blind eye toward someone in trouble bears some responsibility. I remember a couple of decades ago when the PC crowd advanced the notion that many people in mental institutions were wrongfully held, weren't dangerous, and ought to be released to some sort of semi-controlled, but mostly free environment. This has only gotten more so in recent years. I'm certainly not saying that we round up and institutionalize every person who may be a little odd, but there is a dividing line between being a little odd and slipping into mental illness. Once that line is crossed, the ill need treatment, most often in a very controlled environment. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/17/12 at 08:42:23 The worst school massacre we ever had was in 1927 in Michigan. 44 children and adults died. No guns were involved. The big diff here is that we now have ratings-obsessed media fanning the flames for all they are worth. "Gun control" is not the answer. Hitler had gun control. Castro has gun control. In both those cases the plan was (is) for the citizenry to be defenseless against the state. The one constant in the US is that anytime guns are harder to own for law-abiders, the crime rate goes up. Anytime restrictions on law-abiders go down, the crime rate goes down. As R Lee Armey says, "Disarming innocent people does not protect innocent people." Making baseless assertions about posts being offensive might in itself be rather offensive, don't you think? ;) |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/17/12 at 08:49:15 The libs are going crazy with their "assault rifle" gibberish again, as well. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Demin on 12/17/12 at 09:16:22 Read this.What is the difference between a gun and a vehicle?He heard voices.They were following him....... Maybe this will come up. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/03/david-mark-clark-bike-rampage-insanity_n_917452.html He didn't kill anybody just injured some.They cyclists got lucky. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/17/12 at 09:16:29 6E505B464B464B290 wrote:
.. and Hitler liked dogs... big deal... We have "gun control"... The question isn't should we, or shouldn't we... We already do... The question is,... do the current reg's work... and they clearly don't... Even some conservative, NRA approved, politicians are considering reasonable new rules... Nobody, but nobody, needs 50 or 100 round capacity guns... It's true that mental problems are at the root of most of these shootings,.. but these high capacity weapons are at root of the body counts... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/17/12 at 09:28:34 http://https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/59995_10151170208537548_1487555145_n.jpg I can see I'm already late to this party so I'll post this statistic... And simply ask "How old should you be to steal a firearm?" --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/17/12 at 09:48:19 3F303C363D303B373027323027550 wrote:
Jerry, I could not agree more ... However you do know that such a program to help every one who is likely to be going off the rails ... is likely to be the biggest ever government program ever conceived dont you ... I should say it would be great, absolutely fantastic matter of fact ... but can you imagine the scale of the right wingers revolt on this ? Think obamacare, and raise that to the power of 10 and you may be getting close to 1% of it. You're better off suggesting gun control. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/17/12 at 11:02:29 http://s3.hubimg.com/u/7240162_f520.jpg http://https://pbs.twimg.com/media/AySBoJACUAAYvFw.jpg:large |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/17/12 at 11:14:15 I find that data to be very biased. Look at the number of firearms per citizen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country By your chart there Finland is the most peaceful region, yet they rank #7 in firearm ownership. Germany ranks #15. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/17/12 at 11:16:35 People murder others, not the weapon of choice. Do cars kill people in DUI fatal accidents, or do the drivers? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/17/12 at 12:24:23 "Sorry, Midnight and JOG, but when people are crazy, they are crazy, and maybe the community at large there needs to ask itself why someone didn't try to help these people with their paranoia. Couple all of this together with the fact that the shooter had mild autism, was a recluse, etc., etc. and you had the recipe for disaster cooking for a long time." Jerry what brought that statement on? This kid is the sickest of the sick. He and his mother should have been incarcerated. There's no arguing that. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/17/12 at 12:34:20 Midnight - Sorry, that was really meant for JOG if he's still reading posts. I fear for him - I think he has gotten so into every single little thing being the product of some vast conspiracy and underhanded or secret action that he has lost a realistic perspective. Have I ever noted a tinge of those feelings in some of your posts? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by verslagen1 on 12/17/12 at 12:38:27 There are multiple issues here... a lunatic steals weapons and uses them to kill is the main issue. The weapons were legal and whether or not they could be considered "assault" weapon really isn't a point. As too whether it was a high capacity clip or not is a matter of convienence to the shooter. people will still be dead, just have more of a chance to run. A bigger issue which needs to be addressed is the availability of weapons to a lunatic. I have to have a trigger lock or secured place for all weapons. Why weren't her weapons secured? Why are weapons in the homes of lunatics? They do background checks, who assesses the family or home in which the weapons will be stored? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/17/12 at 12:47:15 Vers - The mother was as much a nut as the son. Did you see my earlier post this morning about her? The news was full of her craziness this morning. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/17/12 at 13:13:31 4A6E63696E606F73756E636275070 wrote:
BTW autism is a disorder that was created by the CDC and covered up by every agency under the purview of the CDC. They need to fess up and stop the madness. They can deny it all they want, it has eaten into society like a cancer. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/17/12 at 13:17:00 I say, by definition, you're crazy if you go out and shoot a bunch of people... ... but, it's also pretty crazy to buy a 50 or 100 magazine for a weapon... I think a 5 shot limit on high power weapons,.. 11 shot for hanguns,... would be reasonable... I know I'll get blasted for that one... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/17/12 at 14:52:41 6D7B6C71697C716A1E0 wrote:
And well you should. Magazine capacity has very little to do with it. You are in no more or less danger if my Mini-14 has a 5 round mag or a 30 round mag. Making silly laws like that only bother the folks who would not do anything wrong in the first place, and they have no effect on those who want to go crazy and kill people. It is a problem libs have had all through history, especially with guns. They think writing lots of laws for weapons that will only be obeyed by good citizens will make things better. They have always been wrong about that. Making a law like, say, the stupid one about shotgun barrel length having to be a minimum of 18" will have absolutely no effect on a bad guy who wants to do something nasty with a shotgun. The only laws that have any effect on bad guys are laws that make it REALLY awful for them if they use a gun in the commission of a felony,.. and even those laws aren't very effective. Telling me I can't have a large magazine on my Mini-14 will have absolutely no effect on human misery at all, except for pissing me off. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by bill67 on 12/17/12 at 16:00:51 How many round mag should a 6 year old be allowed? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/17/12 at 16:29:13 79767A707B767D717661747661130 wrote:
I believe in a lot of things that Jog brought up, the Fed Reserve being # 1. Ron Paul finally got the approval for a half a$$ audit and it was discovered the Fed Reserve gave away 19 Trillion behind our backs and the audit was shut dow. Billions were given to the banks that were already bailed out behind our backs. The results of the audit were printed in all the reputable newspapers. It happened while the election and the debates were wide open. I thought it was strange neither canditate mentioned it. 19 Trillion is 2 trillion more than our national debt and no one seems to be bothered that 19 trillion was printed and given away behind our backs, some of it to our enemies and known terrorist organisations. I backed Jog 110% on that one. JFK tried to shut the Fed. Reserve down with the silver certificate and 4 mos. later he was dead. One of our heroes Charles Lindberg tried to shut the Fed. Reserve down and his child dissapeared. I believe there are secret organisations at work promoting a one goverment planet. Listen to Kennedys secret organisation speech on You Tube. Historians say that is the speech that killed him. He was going to expose secret societys and weeks later he was dead. I believe these secret organisations will stop at nothing to achieve their goal of a one world goverment.. They have all the money they need, the Fed Reserve makes sure of that. My wife was ordered to pick up some of Bin Ladens family and have them flown out of the country hrs. after 911. Like Jog said, its all right here in front of you, all you have to do is look. I might have 6 or seven bottled waters at my house, we use a Brita canister for drinking water. Have a few guns, most of them are hunting arms, no assault weapons.. My wife was given her firearms when she retired. I'm not a survivalist. Jog took it further than I'm willing to take it, not all but a large percentage of what he saw and provided credible links to I believe. I know what I see and read and the evidence is everywhere something is going on behind our backs. Google Federal Reserve Audit. Look at the reputable links. After you do that if you think I'm crazy thats your right. If it makes you feel better I use to despise lawyers LOL, now I despise bankers. There's never been a corrupt lawyer that can cause one millioneth the damage the bankers are now doing. They love war and chaos. There's money to be made there. They have the goverment in their back pockets. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/17/12 at 16:30:06 2B2025257F7E490 wrote:
Bill I've missed you, glad you're back! |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/17/12 at 16:49:20 Yes, Hi Bill, so glad to see you back....LOVE the wit in your posts. :D |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Ed L. on 12/17/12 at 17:06:19 One big question is how can "crazy" people who are a threat to society be identified. Out of the thousands who show some type of antisocial abberant behavior there might be one who will actually act out the anger found inside. Most of the time they are on the edge of society without a good paying job (poor health care) and have developed a paranoid outlook. I've a sibling who is bipolar and everything bad that occurs in life is caused not by them but by someone else trying to destroy thier life. Just asking someone that close to the edge of insanity to go get help can push them over the edge. I've seen it happen more than once. The path most families take in situations like the one I've experienced is to try to cushion the "crazy" from exposure to whatever will trigger the fall from reality. Once again you have ended up not providing proper care when needed. The problem with society is sysmatic, the falt falls not just with the family of the "crazy" but the entire support structure offered to people on the edge. I don't have any answers as to how to cure the problems of society. I do agree with Jerry that the fabric of our society is starting to tear. To anybody who takes offense to the term "crazy" I am sorry that I must use that word but I know of no other that gets the idea across. Gun control isn't the answer, I visited the local gun store over the weekend and was amazed at how many fire arms were being purchased. My ears are still ringing with the sound of shotguns being racked. The cat is out of the bag and no one know how to put it back in. Just needed to chime in on this one. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/17/12 at 17:10:59 353E3B3B6160570 wrote:
I gotta' go with 6 rounds, Bill... somehow just sounds right... Nice to hear from ya', Bill... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/17/12 at 17:15:56 18262D303D303D5F0 wrote:
This twit killed 28 people,.. Aurora shooter killed 12 and wounded 58... You think you could do that with a 5 shooter?.. Is your right to have a 100 mag worth those lives?... Go tell that to the parents in New Town... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/17/12 at 17:30:01 "Telling me I can't have a large magazine on my Mini-14 will have absolutely no effect on human misery at all, except for pissing me off." So, asking you to comply with a reasonable firearms law "Pisses you off"? Could this be a red flag right there as to 'your' state of mind? How can we know what a person is thinking? Or how their thought-processes may vary from "normal", whatever normal is construed as these days. May I ask why you are so angry over something as reasonable as a slightly less capacity magazine? Exactly why is it so critical to have such massive firepower?...I'm sure your not um...planning something. I doubt you hunt elephants down there, so please explain this magazine issue you have. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/17/12 at 17:36:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2_qo5_wSa8 1 minute 33 seconds in. In the same amount of time as a trigger pull for most people these cats have already reloaded. So let's pretend those are 10 round mags instead of 30 round mags. What did you accomplish? Do you feel better about yourself? --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/17/12 at 17:41:21 "I was expecting starry and pescatori to chime in with the "guns are evil, they kill kids" mantra. Standard, baseless, liberal screed."Gyro And I expected the "gun nuts" to rush in like a trained army of sh!t throwing monkeys to combat any reasonable dialog. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by arteacher on 12/17/12 at 18:21:07 Personally, although I used to belong to a shooting club, I don't like guns. I never allowed either of my kids to have toy guns, and my grandsons don't have any as well. My father had a WWII US army .45, and a beautiful Savage pump action .22 that my mom gave him as a wedding present. He gave them both up on the first "give us your guns, no questions asked" program of the Canadian government. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/17/12 at 21:08:29 Just Monday in Colorado over 4800 background checks for guns were run. All this talk of gun control is good for the gun industry, and I can bet that of that 4800, most were for assault weapons, with large clips... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/17/12 at 21:12:47 Nice,.. gun manufactures and the NRA should sponsor these massacres... It's good for business... ... and now,.. the next one will come sooner... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by LostArtist on 12/17/12 at 21:32:27 0332213222263227530 wrote:
okay, I'm all for the second amendment and pro gun this and that, hell I think if you want a tank you should be able to buy one, but let's not pretend that guns don't make killing easier, that is their intended purpose, I know I know, in china some crazy stabbed like 20 kids or something too http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/14/china-school-stabbings/1770395/ and yes, crazies will be crazies and will find a way to cause their destruction and death if they are true believers and really motivated, but let's not forget guns make killing easier, that's what they are for. there have been a time or two when if I had access to a gun I wouldn't be here today, I would have ended me. I personally don't enjoy guns, but I understand they should not be outlawed or anything |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/17/12 at 21:38:19 Well, so now some of you righties are wringing your hands in angst over this latest tragedy and shaking your heads over the lack of mental health care in this country..conceder this: When Reagan became governor of California, CA had an extensive mental hospital system where the mentally ill got good care. Reagan pulled the funding from that, and threw the mental patients out into the streets. When he attained the Presidency this deficient style of budget priority infused the entire Republican party, and it has left the nation a shambles. We now live the result of decades of underfunded social systems surrounded by under-educated, paranoid wingnuts convinced that they are far safer if everyone owns powerful semi-auto guns with 30 round clips. Reagan emptied the mental hospitals in ALL the states with some term like community care. That was about the time disabled, mentally ill vets began turning up on street corners and it has only gotten worse. This is Ronald Reagan's America. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by mpescatori on 12/18/12 at 00:22:44 On 16 December, mpescatori wrote: "When my son was 6 I had to wrestle off his cold fingers the CDROM to "Grand Theft Auto" and prove him, playing the game, what he was actually doing, was rehearsing and practicing to be a robber, hijacker and fiend. An assassin and cop-killer." On 17 December, Retread wrote: "We worship war, we [...] have an abundance of violent video games that mimick war, killing, decapitation, and all out apocalypse.. Children are trained killers, we all have access to weapons capable of killing in mass quanity." On 17 December, Gyrobob wrote "I thought it almost funny how pescatori made comments about mussolini, hitler, franco, and castro,... all of whom made gun control an immediate national law as soon as they took power. They knew full well they needed a disarmed citizenry in order to kill citizens whenever they needed to." On 17 December, mpescatori wrote: "Hitler, Mussolini et al did not outlaw guns to kill off thier kind, in fact, they didn't ban anything at all; for your inforation, Gyrobob, there were possibly more (hand)guns in fascist Italy than in liberal England at the time, and they did come in handy once the Resistance started in 1943." On 17 December, Gyrobob wrote: ""Gun control" is not the answer. Hitler had gun control..." On 17 December, Verslagen wrote: "A bigger issue which needs to be addressed is the availability of weapons to a lunatic. I have to have a trigger lock or secured place for all weapons. Why weren't her weapons secured? Why are weapons in the homes of lunatics? They do background checks, who assesses the family or home in which the weapons will be stored?" On 16 december, mpescatori wrote: "Anywhere in Europe, if you have a mentally ill living inhouse, you CANNOT have guns. So much for so much." On 18 December, Starlifter wrote: "We now live the result of decades of underfunded social systems surrounded by under-educated, paranoid wingnuts convinced that they are far safer if everyone owns powerful semi-auto guns with 30 round clips." On 16 December, mpescatori wrote: "I'd love to ride the US coast-to-coast, riding solo. I'd absolutely, positively love it. It scares me to death to think that I can fall victing of a roadside shooting simply because I split lanes or stopped at the lights when turning right, or talked back at the angry white 300 lb. mama on a pickup when she flips me the one-fingered salute." On 17 December, mpescatori wrote: "Do you see gun racks in pickups in downtown Averageville?" On 18 December, Starlifter wrote: "We now live the result of decades of underfunded social systems surrounded by under-educated, paranoid wingnuts convinced that they are far safer if everyone owns powerful semi-auto guns with 30 round clips." On 16 December, Webstermark wrote: "I was in your Italian town of Bergamo (home of the Lord’s Supper) for 2 days and walked around everywhere. I never one time felt fear no matter where I went. Other than not finding a lot of people who spoke English [...] I had a great time. " OK, these quotes are not intended to mean Europe is better than the USA nor that strict gun control lessens murders, wackos are wackos anywhere, regardless. These quotes are intended to mean that there is an inherent public perception - by you all, not by me - that the gun laws are much too permissive. Personally speaking, a 30-round clip in an assault rifle for "domestic defense" is just as justified as a 500hp V8 engine in a soccer mom's family runabout. Too much without any justification. I stress my point, if you simply TEST the regulations which apply to motor vehicles to gun ownership and gun use, you'd have an extremely liberal situation BUT your local Sheriff would know exactly what is in everybody's house when rushing to a call. One thing is rushing to a 911 call where there is no gun in the house; or maybe there is one handgun reasonably proportioned to domestic defense. But when the Deputy hears the house stocks assault rifles and shotguns of all sorts and sizes... that homeowner is of a different kind altogether. "Shoot first, them ask questions" once applied to the US Cavalry when hunting down "terrorist" Geronimo (who, from his own point of view, was simply fighting for his own Country). "Shoot first, then ask questions" in home defense equates to charges of Murder One, and you'll need a hell of a good lawyer to get it downgraded to Manslaughter. "Trespassers will be shot" cannot apply in a civilized country. "Preemptiove defense" is called "vaccination" in medicine, but the Criminal Code of Laws has other names for it. The the International Court in The Hague has sentenced, more than once, that Nations cannot appeal to "Preemptive Defense" for anything other than defense within their own national territory or airspace/national waters. As for myself, I dream of riding around the world on my Savage (the BMW is much too heavy and looks much too "rich and expensive"). I have read many many books written by those who have done it, in all or in part, and have come to the conclusion the world WAS a much more peaceful place way back in the 1950-60s... ::) Actually, it was at its most peaceful in the 1920s... :-/ |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/18/12 at 01:54:52 The problem is new gun laws will be just as effective as speed limit laws. You might catch one now and then but there's nothing to stop me from walking across the street and buying a gun from my neighbor that he bought from his cousin 15 yrs ago. How many people are treated for mental illness in this country? If the truth was known probably less than 1% of the people who are actually mentally ill. Laws sound good and make politicians look good but they only work when they can be enforced. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/18/12 at 05:41:57 Could this be a red flag right there as to 'your' state of mind? How can we know what a person is thinking? Or how their thought-processes may vary from "normal", whatever normal is construed as these days. here is one problem with yet more gun laws. People like our friend Star here would be the ones making the 'rules' the rest of us have to follow. He doesn't like what someone said so all of a sudden he's 'questionable'; not 'normal'? I saw this yesterday in airport screening line. Some bitchy woman in front of me had to have her bag sent back through the x-ray for some stupid reason and she said out loud "WTF" and "This is BS" etc... The TSA lady made a big deal out of it, took her name and noted the time etc.... I think someone can say wtf if they want to. Now she's labeled by the TSA. Yea, she was an annoying and bitchy woman, but last I checked, we're free to be annoying and bitchy if we want. Do I want the same Congreesman and Senators who are too freaking stupid that they can't kept from bankrupting the nation to pass yet more laws telling me what I can and can't do? What I can and can't own? No thanks. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/18/12 at 06:12:49 3B2D3A273F2A273C480 wrote:
War is good for business. There's a tactical training group I'm on a mailing list for. They run specials on firearm packages (rifles with mags), DVDs, parts, etc. He was sending one email a week trying to push a new promotional rifle for the past month. He couldn't give them away. Some fancy piece of hardware that I wasn't about to drop 2 grand on. Yesterday his email said he was sold out. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/18/12 at 06:28:05 Star - I believe the movement to empty to mental institutions was not a California only issue, but a national one. Didn't Congress pass some sort of "mental patients' bill of rights", or something like that, back in the late 1970s? I think so, but don't have the time today to research it. I know that the same thing happened here in Ohio as in California, and last I looked, Reagan was never governor of Ohio. Ohio closed several mental hospitals at the time, mainly because many were very old, and were probably more like prisons than like hospitals. Some of the patients went to semi-controlled living in half way houses, while many others were simply turned loose. I remember that distinctly because of some of the zoning fights before our city council relating to where to site those half way houses. It was the politically correct thing to do at the time, when the basic thought was that these people aren't criminals, so the vast majority of them ought not to be locked up without a history of having been physically dangerous in the past to themselves or to others. Only a very few who had the potential for future danger were kept in "custody". Of course, this can be a slippert slope too - we can't lock people up on mere suspicion that they could be dangerous, or probably about half of us would meet that criteria. But where is the answer? Wiser folks than I probably have that answer. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/18/12 at 07:16:59 What we are going to see is a assault weapons ban again, background checks for all including private gun sales. How they will enforce this I don't know, maybe you have to have a clearance attached to the gun? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/18/12 at 09:14:16 6A7C6B766E7B766D190 wrote:
Oh yea, any of these news items that get on TV or radio should have to be precedded by "This following news item has been made possible by Smith and wesson and backed by the NRA" Today in yourtown 35 people were massacred at your grocery store while they were shopping ... Blah blah blah The NRA and smith and wesson approved this message. Would be too true and hence never get off the ground. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WD on 12/18/12 at 16:30:57 It's much more vast than just the level of civility between the USA and Canada, or the USA and Europe. We're going on 3 generations of people who were never taught how to advance themselves beyond the level of a 10 or 12 year old. Mental health problems or not. There is a distinct lack of common sense, common decency, common courtesy, respect and manners in the USA. There is a serious lack of personal accountability. It starts in the home, progresses through the school system, and infests every aspect our lives. Work, going to the store, going out to eat (since when do males wear hats at the table, talk with their mouths full, swear at the wait staff...), fueling up the vehicle of the day... Road rage, parking lot rage, attacking some minimum wage employee because your fast food order got messed up... Didn't see ANY of those behaviors when I was stationed in Europe. Except where there were lots of younger Americans. You want to fix the problems? Start teaching people how to be responsible adults again. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/18/12 at 17:19:10 I have a friend that wanted to start his own religion,... "The Church of Just Be Nice"... That was the only rule,.. the only sermon,.. the only words in the bible... Any choice in life and the one rule should be considered... Which is the nicer thing to do?... ... it also came printed on T-shirts, bumper stickers, and refrigerator magnets.... Follow that one rule,.. and you'll go to a good place, and be remembered fondly when your gone... I think I'm gonna' grow my hair long as Jesus and go for it... Maybe do an infomercial... :-?... Maybe change my name to Serowbus?... :-?... ...maybe not,.. sounds like a mean three-headed dog... or something the Partridge family would drive around in... :-/... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/18/12 at 23:11:44 Our lousy health care system not only is reponsible for the life of the sick person, it takes innocent lives as well. Maybe comprehensive phychological testing should be required in high school. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/18/12 at 23:31:32 Has technology rendered the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution obsolete? Yes. Has the application of modern military design to civilian firearms produced a class of weapons too dangerous to be in general circulation? Yes. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Drifter on 12/19/12 at 04:52:35 WD, i agree 100% Most of the aholes i have seen around the world in recent times have been Americans or jews....i have confronted a few and told them you are the face of our country stop being an ass. Who knows if they learned anything? We have a society problem in the US for many reasons, i believe most of which is caused by non stop violence in games tv school yards etc the war culture dominates our way of thinking anymore....in every darn thing. Being nice and getting along.....hell thats not cool i would rather cause some sheet drama is in man.......Rant over! :( Ride a motorcycle in florida and you will know for a fact that what WD said is 100% true total rude self centered stressed out could care less asholes texting non stop truckers included....i am losing my desire to ride instinct and staying alive is winning out. I avoid traffic and go for the 2 lane county roads. :) |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/19/12 at 05:01:44 There is certainly no one cause of the decline, nor probably 2 or 3 causes. But I focus on just one of them, again saying it's not the only one. My beef is the violent computer games. Anyone who knows anything about mentally imbalanced people knows that they often retreat into a world of their own, blocking out perceptions and realities of the real world around them. When Adam Lanza stayed in his home, playing these horrible games all day, on multiple computers in two adjoining bedrooms, couldn't he very easily be retreating into a world of that creation - violence, killing, and the glorification of just plain gore? Plus, computers and graphics, especially at the high end, can be so realistic that to a mind maybe just in the beginning stages of becoming warped, they become his reality. It's then just a very short step from that reality to exercising the same actions toward real people. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/19/12 at 05:59:54 616E6268636E65696E796C6E790B0 wrote:
And then he walked into the real world with real guns that let him do exactly as the games showed. Life imitating art ? What crap ... I'd clamp down on guns and bullets, that is the easiest to get a effect on. Gaming systems and games and sites, yes next target ... but hey that is just me. Maybe the NRA would prefer we remove everything else first, then think about bullets and guns. After all what is 27 people today, 12 people 2 months ago, 33 in summer and what not compared to 150 years of lobbying success and history of freedom. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/19/12 at 06:09:48 Srinath - Perhaps you should study some about pyschology and the paths from minds that are not yet totally pyschotic toward the process of real mental breakdown, and you wouldn't call it crap. I have undertaken that study, albeit many years ago in college, and the process hasn't changed since. Like many, you want a simple answer - ban the guns. As I said previously, I'm in favor of the assault weapons ban. But the weapon of choice will simply change. Timothy McVeigh killed dozens, including many children with a truck full of fertilizer and diesel fuel - do you want to ban those products? Read about the school massacre in Bath, Michigan in 1927 when a deranged man blew up a school with dynamite and killed something like 38 people, mostly kids - the worst school massacre of all time in the U.S. Pyschopaths will always find a way to carry out their evil intents. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WD on 12/19/12 at 08:00:13 i am losing my desire to ride- Drifter Already lost mine, and it was one of the few things I truly enjoyed. I have ZERO interest in riding in the county I live in. Heavily armed drunk/stoned driving blacks and hispanics, almost no law enforcement on the roads (too busy responding to all the black on everybody crime calls), zero respect for the rules of the road by most people born/raised/taught to drive here. Don't let me get started on the black "riding clubs" in the local area... if they are on the road EVERYBODY goes elsewhere. They give motorcyclists around here a really bad name, if you are on a cruiser or sport bike, you WILL be hassled by the police. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/19/12 at 08:12:39 Odd feelings, but unfortunately, my desire to ride has waned for different reasons. I haven't had my S40 out of storage since I put it away for the winter in November, 2010 - I didn't ride at all in 2011 nor in 2012. But my story is unusual - I didn't ride at all for 40 years from 1968 thru 2007. In 2008 I thought I'd try it again, and went searching for a bike that wasn't too expensive, since this was to be an experiment to see if I really wanted to ride again, but yet find a bike with modern performance over the little bikes I rode in the1960s. Hence I bought a fairly new S40, two years old at the time. Frankly, I didn't really enjoy it all that much. Traffic now is so much heavier than in the 60s, back then there were almost no freeways, and the few times I rode on a freeway on the S40 I was very uncomfortable at speed, so close to other vehicles. Of course, being at bit more mature now at age 66 than I was at age 22 makes a bit of difference too. My plan is to see if I get the bug back at all this upcoming spring, and if not, to sell the S40. Coupled with other issues, like weather, make it impractical for any meaningful transportation use. I used to ride it to and from the airport, or the office on nice days. Even then, something would interfere - someone would want to go have a drink after work, and I'd have to refuse, as I won't ride after even one beer. How did we get off onto this subject? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/19/12 at 09:11:16 193E2B3826232C3E2F384A0 wrote:
http://pic5.duowan.com/xd/0909/117132291627/117132338466.jpg http://https://twobirdsflyingpub.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/mk19-automatic-grenade-launcher.jpg And there is a class called Destructive Devices. This is why people don't run around carrying XM134 mini guns or Mk19 40mm grenade launchers. There are better weapons out there which are, believe me, restricted to civilians. I play Call of Duty. Actually it took Black Ops to get me into the rest of them but I've since played all of them on PS3. I'm not going out and shooting up the neighborhood. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/19/12 at 10:46:10 616E6268636E65696E796C6E790B0 wrote:
Dude I know psychopaths will do this and that ... but all of that will take time and work and effort and cause less and less damage as they get less elaborate. Guns do not require any of it. You dont need brains, you dont need effort, you dont need to put in any bloody thought ... McVeigh was not just a insane loner, he was a very motivated and anti big government activist. He is a terrorist, not a nutcase. If we were to have no guns at all, these fools will ahve gone on a baseball bat rampage, or a knife rampage or a chicken leg rampage ... killed 1-2-3 and wounded 3-4-5 ... the 1927 guy and Timothy McVeigh will ahve still done what they did. Its not a simple answer or a simple solution, its the quickest step to ponder the other failings of our society. Yes we will have rampages, the rampages will just have a smaller body count. Seriously though, I think we just need to plaster the news with "The following massacre has been made possible with the help of the NRA, smith and wesson and your local gun dealer". Dont tie acts of terror to gun ownership. Dont tie mental illness to gun ownership. Dont change 1 rule wait 3 weeks and say that didn't work. With 150 years of lobbying, maybe every 3-4 months we will have a 30-40 body pile. Maybe that is what freedom is. That maybe what the NRA is all about. The only thing that a fool can use to kill several 100 people in a few seconds inside a building is a gun, Yea yea he can plow into them with a car but not inside a building. Say anything you want, yes we can poison people and kill 100, and you can even kill them by poking them in the eye wiht a pencil. Yes ... but 30 in 30 sec with no effort or brains - only a gun my friend. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/19/12 at 10:50:19 Guess you discount all of the bombings in India, Iraq, Israel, Afgan, Lebanon, etc. as effective ways to kill dozens of people at once? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/19/12 at 10:57:41 BTW there is 3 cops in my sons school every morning, presumably they would be there through the day ... I think. That should put a nice little dent in the "cut government spending" mantra of the right wing that Obama will get blamed for. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/19/12 at 11:01:26 212E2228232E25292E392C2E394B0 wrote:
Terrorists and a well funded and motivated organisation is behind them, not a loner with a loose screw. Spend enough $$$ and you can kill as many people as you want ... Spend 20 bucks and kill 27 in 30 seconds - unparalleled efficiency per dollar and per second my friend. Brought to you courtesy of the NRA and Bushman's special design AR15 now with the "retard" grip and trigger ... so even a retard can kill as effectively as a combat trained soldier ... Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/19/12 at 11:09:34 You can use car to kill people, or a baseball bat, or a pencil, or rat poison... ... but they do have an intended purpose... You can use an assault weapon to hunt turkey, or scare an intruder, or as a bottle opener if you want... ... but it does have an intended purpose... It's intended purpose is not legitimate for civilians in a civilized country .... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/19/12 at 11:32:22 Serowbot - No argument,,my Friend. As I have repeatedly said, military assault weapons should not be in civilian hands, except maybe in very limited circumstances, such as no auto fire, small magazines, and bona fide collectors who may own them. For instance, one of my good friends, whom I've known well from high school thru our 60s, has an M-16 , completely licensed and legal, as a sovenior of our time spent in a land far, far away and a long time ago. I have no isssue with an individual such as he owning this weapon. I think the auto fire is disabled too. But that's an isolated instance - otherwise, no ordinary person is justified in owning one. Personally, my home defense weapon is a shotgun. When a burglar or other bad guy hears that distinctive sound of racking a round into the chamber, only the craziest fof fools won't beat a hasty retreat. My wife uses the Webley .380 because she still, at age 64, has 20/15 vision and in the middle of the night, will hit what she intends to hit. For me and until I get my glasses on, the shotgun will do just fine - it's all I need. And, we're empty nesters. We have no grandchildren or other kids ever in our house. If grandchildren come some day, then the guns get locked up. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/19/12 at 12:45:23 And, just like that, we have glazed over the NRA enabled, Bushmaster sponsored pile of bodies. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/19/12 at 12:50:41 How many times do I have to say the same thing - I support an assualt weapons ban. Get it? Now since neither of us is a Congressman, and therefore not able to take immediate action, do you still want to just repeat the same thing, over and over again? I listened to some of Obama's press conference at noon in the restaurant where I had lunch. If he does what he said, it sounded quite reasonable. Unfortunately I didn't get to hear the first part of the press conference. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/19/12 at 15:49:39 Do you even know what constitutes an "assault weapon"? I'll quote it by the book and then I'll add my own critiques in red. Attributes previously defined in assault weapon legislation and their purposes: Detachable magazines Collapsible stocks Because if could make the rifle, at your leisure, up to 5 or 6 inches shorter. Realistically if you had to carry it in a tight space or for comfort if you were switching between shooters. Like handlebars Pistol grips If you're holding something capable of causing great risk or injury to yourself or others you shouldn't have a pistol grip because you might have better control over the weapon. They are said to "(on rifles) reduce the angle (and thus rotational strain) of the wrist, are popular with physically-impaired shooters who cannot hold a stock with a more traditional angle." Grenade launcher I can be reasonable and actually agree that grenade launchers are not necessary Bayonet mounts are often on civilian firearms due to the same parts being used on both government and civilian rifles Because stabbing someone with a gun is way more deadly than plain old boring stabbing Flash suppressors Because you and anyone around you should be rendered flash blind after each round Threaded barrels mount flash suppressors, compensators and muzzle brakes A barrel shroud This is "a tube around the barrel designed to limit transfer of heat from the barrel to the supporting hand, or to protect a shooter from being burned by accidental contact." Again, the last thing you'd want is a firm grip /end sarcasm Magazines greater than 10 rounds I already posted a speed reload video. Unless you're going to outlaw the number of magazines I can have there is no difference if I have a 100 round drum or 10x 10 round magazines. Except my Betamax drum jams all the time. Semi-automatic, functionality meaning that they can eject spent shell casings and chamber the next round without additional human action, but (as opposed to automatic firearms) only one round is fired per pull of the trigger. Every gun, even revolvers, except bolt action rifles and black powder muskets Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more Not having arm fatigue is dangerous The United States Department of Justice National Institute of Justice found should the ban be renewed, its effects on gun violence would likely be small, and perhaps too small for reliable measurement, because rifles in general, including rifles referred to as "assault rifles" or "assault weapons", are rarely used in gun crimes. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/204431.pdf The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention studied the "assault weapon" ban and other gun control attempts, and found "insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws reviewed for preventing violence." A 2004 critical review of research on firearms by a National Research Council panel also noted that academic studies of the assault weapon ban "did not reveal any clear impacts on gun violence" and noted "due to the fact that the relative rarity with which the banned guns were used in crime before the ban ... the maximum potential effect of the ban on gun violence outcomes would be very small...." That study by Christopher S. Koper, Daniel J. Woods, and Jeffrey A. Roth of the Jerry Lee Center of Criminology, University of Pennsylvania found no statistically significant evidence that either the assault weapons ban or the ban on magazines holding more than 10 rounds had reduced gun murders. However, they concluded that it was "premature to make definitive assessments of the ban's impact on gun crime," and argue that if the ban had been in effect for more than nine years, benefits might have begun to appear. Research by John Lott in the 2000 second edition of More Guns, Less Crime provided the first research on state and the Federal Assault Weapon Bans. The 2010 third edition provided the first empirical research on the 2004 sunset of the Federal Assault Weapon Ban. Generally, the research found no impact of these bans on violent crime rates, though the third edition provided some evidence that Assault Weapon Bans slightly increased murder rates. Lott's book The Bias Against Guns provided evidence that the bans reduced the number of gun shows by over 20 percent. Koper, Woods, and Roth studies focus on gun murders, while Lott's looks at murder, rape, robbery, and aggravated assaults. Unlike their work, Lott's research accounted for state Assault Weapon Bans and 12 other different types of gun control laws. The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence examined the impact of the Assault Weapons Ban in its 2004 report, On Target: The Impact of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapon Act. Examining 1.4 million guns involved in crime, "in the five-year period before enactment of the Federal Assault Weapons Act (1990-1994), assault weapons named in the Act constituted 4.82% of the crime gun traces ATF conducted nationwide. Since the law’s enactment, however, these assault weapons have made up only 1.61% of the guns ATF has traced to crime."[14] A spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) stated that he "can in no way vouch for the validity" of the report. ...and now here's a video of guns killing people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zQ83fhKQ0M --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/19/12 at 16:58:31 Screw all that, since guns stop gun violence, for every gun assault, the people who atr in the same class as the potential victims ... like say the massacre was @ a theater - you should be able to get a free gun upon producing a moive stub. I dont think there is a "reasonable" stand on guns ... ban all the suckers except the ones that are 5ft long. Yea I can understand you need to kill that deer or the intruder (to say nothing of the savage or the vulcan) ... so a 5ft gun works just fine for that, and screw them all. Dont make bullets, dont make magazines, just ban all the suckers ... except for cops and soldiers ... Screw all this, Like I said, 27 dead people a month, yea the price for freedom ... may be we need to put in a inflation adjustment, and a population adjustment. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WD on 12/19/12 at 18:34:21 5 foot long guns? No problem... have them here in 12g, .50 cal and .54 cal. AND paperwork for A.O.W.s, full auto AND explosives... that means I can legally own them per federal rules. Don't have any "big bad scary things" right now, but I'd love a pair of those belt fed 40mm grenade launchers. Have 20 acres of logging and stump removal coming up. Got to love the ease with which working farms get through the federal hoops and loop holes. Oh, I can also have functional cannon here without any restrictions. My place is a mile deep by 1/2 a mile wide tapering to 1/4 mile wide... ::) |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/19/12 at 20:26:31 Disarming people who obey laws only gives the crazies more advantage. Arm the teachers, not the bad guys. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/19/12 at 21:01:45 While we're at it,... let's send all school children to school in bulletproof vests... Every teacher gets an AR15,...(we'll have to train them, of course)... and buy the rifles, and ammo... with quarterly training sessions... ... and psychological evaluations every quarter as well... You don't mind paying for that,.. do you Gyro?... :-?... We better arm all theatre employees as well,... gas station attendants, fast food employees,.. librarians, Wallmart employees,... zoo keepers... hospital workers... ... ... ... ... ... ... ........ ;D... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WD on 12/19/12 at 21:49:53 Uh, Sero... when I worked at a zoo we WERE armed... large bore handguns in every park vehicle. Worked there in 91 and 93, summers between college semesters. Hospitals in Memphis have armed guards, and have had them since the late 1960s. Gas station attendants? You have to speak English to fill out the paperwork for a gun purchase... but you can buy a Saturday night special from lots of them around the city. They were in the evidence room but got traded out the back door for a nickel rock... :o Or so rumor has it (that and guns with case numbers stenciled in the grip frames turning up at newer crime scenes)... Even in Canada, handguns are easy to get. Go to any 5 and dime in China Town Vancouver... those aren't lighters. ;) |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/19/12 at 21:52:55 Is this great country,.. or what?.... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/20/12 at 04:51:38 Is this great country,.. or what?.... yes it is! |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/20/12 at 05:28:39 594F58455D48455E2A0 wrote:
And we do all of this @ the NRA and gun companies expence, free guns and ammo and training and psych evaluvations (heck any of that that uses up their time, they get paid their overtime salary). Anyone who gets a gun, gets a lifetime NRA membership, free, and no, not govt paying for it ... free, paid by the gun company, who just have to make that extra $$ up on the paying customers. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/20/12 at 07:49:05 Like my man RMoney said, when you can move something to the private sector, its even better. Yes, the guns to defend ourselves against the guns they ahve sold to crackpots will have to be provided free by the gun company, yeaaaaay, private industry @ work. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/20/12 at 12:13:35 Nothing more to say here friends, apparently Bob Bork has died ... Bork, wasn't he the one on star trek where they take your body and put some machinery and a red led for an eye ? ... yea he's dead. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/21/12 at 06:21:45 Remember this folks ... Incoming Texas State Rep. Kyle Kacal says guns don’t kill people—ping-pong kills people. "I've heard of people being killed playing ping-pong—ping-pongs are more dangerous than guns," he says. "Flat-screen TVs are injuring more kids today than anything." Oh think I am making it up - OK try this - http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/texas-lawmaker-ping-pongs-deadlier-guns-211551404--politics.html Yes, "ping pongs" kill people guys. There that should settle that. You know worse than "ping pongs" - badmintons and tennisses. Those are just too deadly to talk about. Then dont even get started on flat screen TV's, that's why I only have those Tube TV's whefre the screen is rounded. I'd rather not be flattened by a "Flat" screen. What a moron. Hey, I think I have found the next republican Nominee ... and he has a cool name to boot - Kyle Kacal for president. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/21/12 at 08:06:06 I want the job of disarming citizens of their flat screen TV's. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/21/12 at 08:24:44 40646963646A65797F6469687F0D0 wrote:
And I'll take the accompanying and extremely dangerous Home theater sound systems ... y'know as a public safety concern. I'd say we should give them a gun ... just cos its safer ... Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/21/12 at 08:40:13 What a moron takes one to know one...... I hate crap like that. When a speaker uses an example of one thing to describe another and then some moron comes along and extrapolates it to ridiculous lengths as a way to dodge the issue and discredit the speaker or confuse the topic. Clearly her point was there are many dangers in the world and knee jerk reactions are usually based in emotions rather than logic. I just read that 25 children per year die drowning in 5 gallon buckets left with water in them. I also just read a report that in 2000, 23 children died from accidental shootings; ie. father cleaning a gun and it goes off or a kid finds it and shoots himself. Which is more dangerous? Where is our law against empty buckets? Oh, there probably already is a law against empty buckets. Now what? Now I know our moron here will make fun of the bucket drownings as a way to hide the issue that: 1) first and foremost he’s an idiot and 2) refusal to acknowledge facts when trying to define the problem in the first place. This is at the heart of the surge in demands for more gun laws. Politicians will hang on with all their might to the verbiage ‘assult rifle ban’ without any idea what real life effect will occur by changing a law that ‘bad guys’ will pay no attention to anyway. The fact is there are millions and millions of guns in this country and millions and millions of multi-round clips. Just like the last assault weapon ban, absolutely nothing will change. The guns are here, making stupid laws that the intended targets of those laws will ignore will do nothing but get idiots elected and give others a false sense of security. But doggone it, let’s make sure we give space to the morons too stupid to understand English so they can change the topic to suit them. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/21/12 at 10:19:33 Wowwww all those big words I no understand ... I theeenk theeeesssseee acceeedddeeeentttts eees bad, but Theeey callll eeeeet aaaaacccceeeeeeddddeeeeeennnntttsss ffffoooorrr reeeeessssseeeen. And ... Can you imagine how big gubbamint is gonna be if we have to have a department of bucket regulation. As soon as you expand govt and fund it by say 300%, we can regulate everything including buckets ... Its accident, carelessness, and as soon as someone uses buckets to drown 27 people in a school, we can regulate it, that's my take. Dont subvert the issue, people die for all sorts of reasons. With guns they get to die rather quickly all in one spot every other month. And sorry, a moron does not know a moron ... a moron is cluless as to who else is a moron. Or worse yet, agrees with the aforementioned moron. That "Takes one to know one" is rather click sounding, however does not work to be true in most cases. That when applied to say, doctors and their patients mean, well, doctors are sick people, applied to cops and criminals, means cops are criminals, and so on. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/21/12 at 11:27:47 Oh yea the NRA has a solution - Its called give us all your $$$ and it will all be cool. "The government should post armed officers in every school" ... and you plan to pay for it how ? Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Demin on 12/21/12 at 12:54:50 Add lawn darts to that list.Remember those?They were dangerous in the hands of a drunk or a kid. ;D |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/21/12 at 13:18:45 Demin - Good point, and not funny. Our law firm does lots of product liabilty defense work, and lawn darts maimed over a hundred known kids, and killed a couple of dozen. Known cases, probably 100 times that many lesser injuries never reported. Same with backyard elevated trampolines - even today, you see a few still around, and hundreds of broken backs, broken necks, and some deaths have been the results of those things. Then, how many little kids drown in residential swimming pools every year? Hundreds, nationwide. The real answer to school violence of all types, whether it's a mugging in a school restrrom ro locker room, or mass murder is rapid identification of the kids who are at risk to cause mayhem and then, controlling them in whatever manner is necessary to remove the risk, or remove them from society. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/21/12 at 13:29:44 68676B616A676C606770656770020 wrote:
Seriously, if you will fork over the few trillion a year needed for that type of program, then talk. Else STFU. Its another case of Repug's talking out of both sides of their mouth ... Stopping crazies from killing lots of people ... either spend trillions and round em up into a mental health program and wait 20 years ... or squeeze the gun ownership side and dont spend nothing, and wait 10 years. Or do both, so you can back off the gun squeeze in a bit when the mental health thing starts working. And yes lots of things when misused maim and kill ... they usually kill the relatives of the misuser ... and there in lies the sense that it is fair. I want to set up a 20ft plastic pool in my backyard, likely me or my kid will drown in it. Not likely your kid will. I start shooting in a school, likely your kid will get shot, not mine, especially if I dont have a kid. Cant legislate stupidity or common sense depending on which way you look @ it. We can legislate a device meant to kill. We must. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/21/12 at 13:50:53 Srinath - You've got a one track mind. Too bad. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/21/12 at 13:59:58 And, you're wrong on who gets hurt or killed by "toys". Usually it's the guest, not the owner. Take those trampolines for example - it's usually the guest who doesn't know how to use one, yet climbs up on it, tries to do a flip, and ends up on the ground. Often it's the visitor's little one who drowns in backyard pools. Just today, there's a good article on Yahoo about home owner insurance rates for liability insurance, and what features of a house raise them. Number one is a swimming pool. We're talking liabilty insurance, what the homeowner's insurer risks by insuring a home with these risks. Number two is a trampoline, and yes, number three is certain breeds of dogs, or any dog who has previously biten someone. One of the saddest cases I ever had to defend was a 5 year old killed by the neighbor's pit bull. The autopsy photos were disturbing even to me, and I view autopsy photos in some case or another every week. Seeing a child's body literally torn open and apart is not for the faint hearted. Get off of your one track mind about gun deaths. Many, many more innocents are killed every day by other means. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by verslagen1 on 12/21/12 at 15:20:17 Current plan is to make every school a secure facility... just like sandy hook. You see how well that worked. Your plan seems to be limit clips and high power guns. even a 22 will kill, so you're ok with limiting it to 10 dead? I'm still hung up that these were stolen weapons. Only a secure trigger or barrel lock on every weapon will disaude use. maybe finger print activated issued with every purcase and registered. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Demin on 12/21/12 at 17:27:49 353A363C373A313D3A2D383A2D5F0 wrote:
Yeah,I was kinda half serious,half joking.I put one in to my foot,but that wasn't half as painfull as the butt whooping I got for doing it.I guess my point in this whole thing is no matter what the weapon of choice is people are still going to kill.I still think it starts at home.Let parents be parents.I don't believe in abuse,but I don't believe any of my generation became killers because we got our butts beat.I also remember when teachers had power to correct kids and not worried about repercussion from the parents.If I got spanked in school,I knew there was another one waiting at home. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/21/12 at 21:10:18 One thing that has never ever worked in this country to slow down violent crime is to put any kind of restrictions on gun ownership. It is really frustrating to see all the libs braying about how more laws will make us safe. Check the FBI records for the past half-century or so. Making it more difficult to own any kind of gun only makes things more difficult for law-abiders,... those would not do anything wrong with any kind of gun. Pure stupidity. If we want to do something about guns, let's find ways to actually dissuade the bad guys from using them. If a bad guy intent upon hurting someone thinks that someone he wants to hurt or someone else in the area will shoot him, he might be a little less inclined to commit evil. IOW, the more guns the good guys have, the less advantage the bad guys have. As Robert Heinlein says, "An armed society is a polite society." |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/21/12 at 21:14:47 I don't understand the hysterical reaction so many folks had to the NRA's suggestion we put more armed security folks in schools. A large percentage of schools have armed guards already. We have armed security in banks, airports, sporting events, congress, etc. If we made a national show about how as a country our schools will be ready for any murderers, some of them will back off. The problem, though, is that when the bad guys realize shooting folks is too dangerous, they'll resort to other killing devices like the guy in 1927 in Michigan that killed something like 44 people without using a gun at all. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/21/12 at 21:50:52 Why,.. are we...America,... the country to have armed schools?... Should we be proud of that?... :-?... I don't think other countries admire that... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/21/12 at 21:51:24 All this talk about BAD guys, and GOOD guys feels strangely familar, kinda like those old westerns from a lost era, where you could always tell the good guys from the bad guys by the white hats.. Fast forward fifty years and the difference becomes rather blurry, now its the insane, they are the bad guys, and believe me when I say they are insane, they lose their mentally ill status as soon as they pick up a gun and start shooting people.. And now our population is less than 5% of the world population, yet we own over 50% of the weapons in the world.. That would put us in either a paranoid bunch of armed nutcases catergory, or the most prepared nation in the world for all out war in the streets.. Either would be a place ready to explode, arm everyone is the NRA's cry, good guys will prevail.. They don't... And, who is going to draw the lines between good guy and bad guy, remember no more white hats? I don't like their answer, I have owned, or fired almost every weapon known to man, I have seen close up the damage these weapons can do to human flesh, I have carried my friends in body bags.. You ask "What does that have to do with now?" I answer "Everybody was carrying a weapon then also, 24/7/365."... One more thing, there were two armed guards at Columbine... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 12/21/12 at 22:57:43 ... and,.. how many, highly trained, totally alert, armed men, were encircled within 20ft of R. Reagan, and J. Brady when both were shot by an inexperienced loon?... Yet,.. he was physically tackled and subdued,... not shot... after the act was done... Think a gun makes you bulletproof?,.. hardly... Do you think you are more aware, and ready, in the checkout at the 7-eleven... than a dozen trained SS agents surrounding the president?... Being armed,.. only makes you safe, at a distance, from an unarmed assailant... The advantage goes to the first strike,.. not the most equipped... A fist beats a machine--gun within 25ft... if it strikes without warning... And the bad guy, knows when he will strike,.. you don't... Armed protection can work in a home... but out in the world,.. it is more wish than fact... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/22/12 at 00:21:36 2C3A2D30283D302B5F0 wrote:
My wife was a SRO (armed School Resource Officer) for a few years during her law enforcement career. She arrested more parents than students. If the school administration tried to make little Johnny behave the parent would come in and threaten the teacher and principal with bodily harm. She arrested two parents for driving their kids to school drunk. Schools without LEO's are heaven for drug dealers and teaching staff who are sexual predators. Went to lunch with a high school teacher today, he's terrified of some of the crazy students and the parents that back them up. We have School Resource Officers at middle and high schools, they're there to protect the school administration and prevent drug sales and abuse. I think they're needed at the elementry schools now to protect the students. Everywhere there is a large gathering of citizens in this country (concerts, sporting events, etc) there are armed LEO's. Adding elementary schools to the list isnt going to change our image. This country is full of immigrants, someone likes what they see here and believes in this country enough to want to become a citizen. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Ed L. on 12/22/12 at 13:13:14 I can't see how it is possible to change the way gun owners look at guns. The entire American culture has been steeped in paranoia since the beginning of the cold war. The paranoia was even present during WW2 with the "Loose Lips Sink Ships" mentality. After the McCarthy era where a commie was behind every tree it became so ingrained that paranoia became the norm. That along with the easy access to firearms post WW2 started this obsession with gun ownership. I feel like this will go down the same road that the airport security has. We will wake up one day and find that the TSA is now protecting our schools, churches, Wal-Mart's ect. That's when the paranoia will really hit home. More guns will not relieve paranoia, it is just the opposite. More guns increase paranoia because people are buying guns to feel safe but just the fact that people think a gun is needed means people will never feel safe. So they go out and purchase more guns. It's a catch 22 |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/22/12 at 15:35:58 1B3A0112705E0 wrote:
When the good guys buy more guns, the bad guys have less of an advantage. It is not paranoid to realize how the media has blown this situation into wacko-land, and that the modern reality is to protect yourself. The bad guys always have all the guns they want. The more guns owned and carried by the good guys just makes the situation a little less in the bad guys' favor. Sticking your head in the sand is not a solution. Accepting reality and NOT sticking your head in the sand is not at all paranoid. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/22/12 at 16:17:22 71506B781A340 wrote:
Walmarts have plainclothes conceal carrying off duty and retired LEO's. The Local grocery store where I shop keeps a plainclothes officer on duty. You are being watched and protected, you're just not aware of it. My phone has rung off the hook since my wife retired, business seeking security and protection want her to go to work for them. She is going to work for Wake Forest University the first of the year, plainclothes and concealed. Most universities since the Virginia massacre have upped and armed their security. Most major high volume businesses have LEO's gaurding you and the store, you're just not aware of it. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/22/12 at 16:33:36 The only way to reduce the number of guns on the street is to have a very high buy back dollar amount. Supply - demand would also raise the price of new guns to that amount plus some. There would be no cheap black market guns because, again, supply demand means the minimum price would always be the buyback amount. Those that have guns and run into financial trouble from time to time would almost always eventually, turn it in for the buyback money. You could also have a buy back for multi-round clips.Lets say the buy back is $1000 for handguns and $2000 for semi-auto rifles. Now, imagine this program had been in place for a few years BEFORE Columbine Couple of questions to consider: How many of the 300 million guns in the US would have been turned in for the money? Would the Columbine killers, VA Tech and Sandy Hook killers still have had easy access to guns? Who would still have guns? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/22/12 at 17:19:25 635156474051467955465F340 wrote:
Crazy people and criminals. The dopers would sell theirs for drugs and steal more guns . I'm for cetain types of gun control but I still believe gun ownership is a right. There's a lot of law abiding citizens like me that would hang on their guns. I should have the right to protect myself and my family. With the economy and the goverment in an uproar these are desperate times. The only way I would get rid of one of my guns is to trade it for another. I'm for phycological testing and a doctors signature as a requirement for gun ownership. Check out my thread, all the mass murderers were on some kind of mind altering drug or drugs. No one in their right mind would massacre innocents and modern medicine has ways to detect troubled individuals. Disarm and ban these mentally ill individuals from purchasing firearms would be a great start. Its a doctors duty to incarcerate people who are a danger to themselves and others. They should start doing their job. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Trippah on 12/22/12 at 20:29:35 The Sandy Hook whacko got his weapons from his pistol packing momma..who died as a result of the arms deal her son made with her. If we follow the NRA's stance to ban whacko's from getting wapons, should we not also ban them from households that include a whacko? :D Seems logical to me. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/23/12 at 05:24:05 should we not also ban them from households that include a whacko Good point. Here’s a counter to consider. St. Louis had a tornado New Year’s day a couple years ago; 70 houses not far from were me destroyed or damaged. Neighborhood evacuated. Immediately afterwards, they caught looters who came to steal what they could because the houses were unprotected. Right after Sandy, NJ police caught looters. Always happens. Remember the movie Paper Moon with Ryan O’Neil? His character looked in the obits and ran his cons on houses he knew where an man had just passed away figuring a lonely widow would be left. That’s what thieves do, don’t they? Target the weaker person when ever possible? If I’m walking down one side of the street and someone who doesn’t appear to be in as good of shape is on the other, who do you think a thief targets? So, two questions: do thieves take into account the likelihood of guns in the house while casing and two, if so, wouldn’t they immediately target households they know with autistic children for example figuring that no one will be armed? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/23/12 at 07:02:51 Here is one suggestion - Yea muzzle the flucking press ... Though I am all for press freedom, they need to be given the freedom to keep killers anonymous. They need to talk about all the victims and call the shooter the shooter, or the mentally unstable shooter or the disturbed killer etc etc, never by name. The other whacko's now cowering in their holes are hearing the sandy hook whacko's name and thinking, man that's a great way for me to get 15 minutes of fame ... Anyway, I am not feeling like reading the 100 posts since I last was here. Harman Kardon and onkyo are calling my name. Bye now. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/23/12 at 07:24:02 These people are insane, their thinking does not mimick ours, it is off the charts insane.. I guess the question is, do we want to admit to our insanity, to the crazies among us, find them help, commit them, and prevent them form hurting others? Or do we want to just turn this nation into the wild west all over again, everybody packing, with the insane, paranoid, delusional, all having weapons of mass destruction at their fingertips... Good guys, bad guys, the line is very blurry here, I would say the bad guys are anyone who thinks that more guns is the only answer.. Back in Dodge City the Marshall took the cowpokes guns away, the town turned into a law abidin city.. They recognized that a drunk with a gun was dangerous, we can't even admit to a crazy person with a gun is dangerous... Our answer is more guns, easier to kill the crazy people.. :o. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/23/12 at 11:38:38 Why on earth do we "sacrifice our freedoms" at the airport, submitting ourselves to pat downs, radiation and cavity searches, ect, but any reasonable regulations on guns are just out of the question for so many people? Gun sales are at record highs since the children were slaughtered. There are a lot of sick people in this country. Of course, I'll bet most of these purchasers already own 20 or 30 guns already. This gun obsession is a sickness. It's a never-ending cycle..a deranged killer takes out 20 babies and 6 teachers with an assault rifle, and poof, these creeps crawl out of the woodwork to buy all the assault rifles they can get their hands on. Every time there's a mass murder, gun manufacturers make a bundle of money. And of course Lapierre's public appearance on the 21st helped it all along. Just about everything that shoots is gone from every wholesaler and retail outlet. Magazines are gone, ammo is gone, even reloading components are seeing a run that has never happened before. Basically the entire pipeline has been emptied. Oh, and 8,000 people a day are reported to be joining the NRA . Also, I read some of the gun sellers say the day after the Sandy Hook killings, it was the MOST profitable day in their history. What a bunch of ignorant, cold-hearted people to profit from the slaughter our children. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Ed L. on 12/23/12 at 13:08:11 A few years ago I read a book about the Krupp empire founded in the late 1800's . The entire fortune of the Krupps was founded in the sale of arms and steel to the countries of Europe. One country would buy a tank that was top of the line and then a new type of armor piercing shell would be developed that would make that tank obsolete. Every new shell or armor that the Krupps developed was made obsolete within 2-3 years by advancements made by industrial giant of the Krupps. This cause rampant paranoia and a lot of money for the Krupp empire. The final ending was WW1. It is a shame but it seems that the same thing is occuring here in America. Instead of countries being caught up in an arms race we have individual citizens caught up the exact same thing. If you want to spend the money it is possible to go out and buy a .50 caliber sniper rifle. Who the He11 needs a .50 caliber sniper rifle in real life just like who needs a 50 round magazine in real life?? I've fired 30 and 50 round magazines and they are a lot of fun but for hunting I was always taught that one shot is all that is needed. The good old boys I used to hunt with in New England didn't allow semi automatic rifles in the preserve, just bolt or pump actions. I'm expecting to see regulations on ammo purchase coming down the pike. There are two many guns to regulate and there are a lot that are hidden from the government. The only expendable when it comes to firearms would be ammo, regulate ammo sales and over the course of time the high capacity magazines would become too expensive to operate. Gun buybacks won't work, who wants a $50.00 gift card for a $1000.00 assault rifle which you named after your mother? I agree with Star that gun ownership has become a sickness in the US. People have gone on for years with owning a gun but as soon as the rumor gets out that they won't be able to buy one they have to go out and buy two!! Gun sales have been up in my area by 50-60%, one local store sold over 30 asault the weekend after the shooting, that was more than what they averaged per month. I have a feeling that we all are sitting on a powder keg with all the firearms being sold and just hope that the history leading up to WW1 isn't being repeated at a individual level. :( Peace and sane thinking will be hard to achieve in the new year. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/23/12 at 16:35:45 Gun buybacks won't work, who wants a $50.00 gift card for a $1000.00 assault rifle which you named after your mother? that's the point of a buy back. $1000 would cause many people to sell their guns for a $1000. The price for a new gun would never slip below $1000. this effectively lowers the number of guns sold every year which is what I think you would want. however, there are still 200-300 million guns in the country. It's going to take a long, long time to get rid of them. Putting taxes on ammo sales would be like taxing cigarettes. it does in fact lower sales. But there would be a heck of a black market. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/23/12 at 20:27:01 Tolerance of "gun nuts" is coming to an end. People who own these weapons, these high-capacity magazines, this "special" ammunition...you are starting to be viewed more and more like the people who have kiddie porn. No one is buying your "defense of freedom" bullsh!t any more. No one thinks you are cool. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/23/12 at 21:57:40 Star the big mouth big gun collectors will never harm anyone. They're just like the so called motorcycle riders who bought $40,000 choppers five years ago. They never put more than a thousand miles on those bikes if you dont count trailer miles. They trailered their customs to the bike rallys to show off just like the asault weapons owners go to the range and the gun shops. Ted Nugent is the biggest chicken sh!t, big mouth lying piece of sh!t that ever walked this planet. Nuge and idiots like him would dive under the bed if they heard a gunshot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgUIx3zUesY Nuge will never shoot at anything that can shoot back. The people you have to worry about are the quiet reclusive individuals, many of them on medications when they should be in a treatment program. Read an interesting article by a physchologist claiming these doped up mass murdering teenagers were sexually molested during their youth. Their parents wanted them full of mind altering meds so they wouldnt talk, and if they did the parents could blame it on the meds. What these child killers did was their way of getting back at the world for what happened to them. Its interesting Lanza killed his mother first. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/24/12 at 06:11:32 Midnight; did the doctor in the article you cited give specific evidence what lead him to believe Lanza was molested”? And I love your chopper analogy! I stopped in orange chopper, the reality tv show place a few times. I had a customer in Newburgh, NY and they were ½ mile away or so. Half the people in their buying stuff wouldn’t know how to ride a bike if their life depended on it! I’m looking for a new bike online and 75% are Harley’s with a few thousand miles on them. Midlife crisis hits, guy gets a tattoo, beard, a costume of leather (vest and chaps maybe), runs down to his local Harley shop and drops 15 grand on what is essentially a dust collector in his garage. And Star; you and I are gun nuts to some. I have 3 guns and I believe you have at least 1. To many people, the guns we have are completely unnecessary. I don’t think the idea that ‘gun nuts’ equate to kiddie porn is going to take off. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/24/12 at 08:22:10 We dont need to buy back any bloody thing. We cut off the supply of bullets. Guns dont kill. Seriously ... they dont, except in rare cases when someone is hit hard with one ... Bullets kill people. That will make the 200-300 million guns out there rather $$$$ to use, and eventually choke them out of existence ... still a 10 year proposition IMHO, but will get it there. In the mean time, we can offer bullet buy back programs, and supply cops with those. Or other high volume consumption, like the army or other military use, training or target practice ... I love it when all the solutions offered by the gun industry all seem to line their coffers. There is cops in plain clothes watching everyone and everythign eh ... OK that explains the skyrocketing government expenses. So before you cry about big govt, remember that. And before cutting down govt, think of how many more school, theater, mall shooting you would like per year. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/24/12 at 15:55:05 I believe Adam Lanza was sexually molested as a child. Maybe his mother seperated from her husband to stop it. Maybe it went on for years and she turned her back until one day she could no longer take it. She barricaded her house and bought the guns, she took Adam to the shooting range so he could prevent any more molestation. He had his brothers ID which according to the media he hadnt seen in two years. Was his brother in on the molesting. When Adam Lanza went into that school he wasnt murdering those children. He was preventing those children from having to experience the living hell he had to go through. He killed his mother for allowing it to happen. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/26/12 at 09:24:04 1E2C2B3A3D2C3B04283B22490 wrote:
Why stop there? Why not take pre-emptive action and drive up the cost taxes and living expenses so no one can afford guns in the first place? Then we'll all be equals. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/26/12 at 10:05:18 I believe Adam Lanza was sexually molested as a child. Maybe his mother seperated from her husband to stop it. Maybe it went on for years and she turned her back until one day she could no longer take it. She barricaded her house and bought the guns, she took Adam to the shooting range so he could prevent any more molestation. He had his brothers ID which according to the media he hadnt seen in two years. Was his brother in on the molesting. When Adam Lanza went into that school he wasnt murdering those children. He was preventing those children from having to experience the living hell he had to go through. He killed his mother for allowing it to happen. how do you know this? where did you hear this? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/26/12 at 10:09:42 Why stop there? Why not take pre-emptive action and drive up the cost taxes and living expenses so no one can afford guns in the first place? Then we'll all be equals. Paraquat; mind you i'm not in favor of this. I'm just using proven economic principals. if the governement paid $1000 per pistol for example with no questions asked, then the selling price for any pistol would be a minimum of $1000. That would reduce the supply of guns since it would reduce new gun sales and a certain number of gun owners would sell them back for the money. I doubt that would have stopped Columbine, VA Tech or Newtown. The Gabby Giffords shooter? Might have changed his plans. Not sure what his financial situation was. Sew has looked into this shooting since it was near him I think, maybe he knows. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/26/12 at 10:10:43 "I believe Adam Lanza was sexually molested as a child. Maybe his mother seperated from her husband to stop it. Maybe it went on for years and she turned her back until one day she could no longer take it. She barricaded her house and bought the guns, she took Adam to the shooting range so he could prevent any more molestation. He had his brothers ID which according to the media he hadnt seen in two years. Was his brother in on the molesting. When Adam Lanza went into that school he wasnt murdering those children. He was preventing those children from having to experience the living hell he had to go through. He killed his mother for allowing it to happen." ...edging my way towards the door. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WD on 12/26/12 at 10:30:19 We'll never know what was going through his mind. I know people who are convinced that the little voices are focused broadcasts from the feds... :-? It doesn't matter what he was thinking (or more likely NOT thinking, just running on reptilian reflex). Focusing on the what if, the how could anybody and the we need to do something drastic to curb this isn't going to fix anything. Speculation and knee jerk reactions solve nothing. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/26/12 at 20:18:01 Last thing that went through his mind was a 9mm shell... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/26/12 at 21:26:31 There is a male prostitute ring based in New Town, Conn. The fly young males to Washington. The Priest of the Catholic Church the Lanza's attended was busted for child molesting. It was one of those Vatican payouts, the priest just dissapeared and several townspeople got richer. Seven of the children Lanza allegedly killed attended that church. New Town Conn is not the quaint little all American town the media portrays it. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/27/12 at 05:55:46 Every place and everyone has 'dirty little secrets'. You do what you feel best, but I’d hold off till the bodies are cold before tossing around accusations. Extensive investigations revealed everything possible about the Columbine shooters. Let’s give this some time for events to unfold. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/27/12 at 06:08:14 437176676071665975667F140 wrote:
Yes give them time, the NRA needs the time to divert attention from the gun issue. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/27/12 at 06:13:02 Now that a few more days have passed since this mass murder by a nut, let's try a little perspective. Hundreds of kids this age and younger die each year from abusive parents and baby sitters who shake them or otherwise physically abuse them. Maybe your efforts ought to go toward preventing that. Hundreds of kids this age or younger drown each year in backyard swimming pools - would you ban pools? Waht about the parents who have fatal car wrecks, killing thier kids, while yapping on a cell phone? Hundreds of kids die each year from this also. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/27/12 at 06:50:59 313E3238333E35393E293C3E295B0 wrote:
Yes and when all of that happens in 1 spot in a span of 10 seconds to 20+ kids who are unrelated to the abusers/careless parents, I will work on banning of carrying baby sitters, abusive parents, swimming pools, cars and even BBQ chicken to that location and expand outwards from there as logic dictates. Happy ? Now back to what happened like above with guns. Cool. srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/27/12 at 06:55:32 Sory, Srinath, but I'm done arguing about guns and ammo. You have a one track mind that won't change, so why bother? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/27/12 at 07:47:05 636C606A616C676B6C7B6E6C7B090 wrote:
Only because the last few mass murders seem to be committed by whacko's weilding guns. As soon as we see them weilding swimming pools, or ping pongs which as the smart congressman Kyle kacal pointed out, are more lethal than guns, we can restrict those. Assault ping pongs need to be banned I tells ya ... those are killers. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/27/12 at 09:27:18 Pedophiles can hurt kids. Lets ban those. Swimming pools? Why would anyone need a private swimming pool. My city has a public pool. (It's a giant toilet so I've never been - I couldn't tell you if they have a lifeguard there or not) I joked in another thread to ban hammers. We have both private and government contractors. Why would an individual ever need a personal hammer? Don't eat McDonalds. It's not healthy for you. Let the government tell you what to eat. Let the government take sweet, sweet care of you. The government will do all your hard thinking for you. Life will be easy then. With all these whackos using guns... if we didn't have guns they would use other instruments. Ban whackos. Go pre-emptive. Ban parents. Ban reproducing. You know what really gets me angry? I have this idiot girl on my facebook friends list. Not for much longer, but she has a daughter. She posted something about how December has 5 Saturdays, Sundays, and Mondays and that this only happens once every 823 years. pregnant dog, are you retarded? These are the people raising the future generations who don't even realize the calendar repeats. She takes whatever anyone says or relays to her in a picture on facebook and accepts this as truth. It really angers me that we can't put a restriction on who can and cannot reproduce. She is a dummy. She will raise a dummy. Ban stupid people. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/27/12 at 10:54:09 0C3D2E3D2D293D285C0 wrote:
Correct ... however the bodies will be piling up less rapidly. All the other examples of Idiocy, hurt you or your loved ones. Not strangers. You want to smoke in bed ... likliest people to be hurt ... you, your spouse and your kids ... when the house burns down. All your examples of Idiocy are similar. Except for guns. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/27/12 at 11:04:33 You're right. That's why the O'Leary cow fire was only contained to his barn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire We should ban fire. Put stricter regulations on lighters and matches. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Ed L. on 12/27/12 at 11:58:36 Maybe we should ban cow people instead of sheeple Center Of the World ;) |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/27/12 at 12:42:10 7342514252564257230 wrote:
We have better building codes and better fire departments to mention a few things. So simply put we need to send kids to school in bullet proof vests and have cops patrol the schools ? I guess as long as the gun companies are paying for it I'm cool with that. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/27/12 at 18:47:18 MY POINT EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!! Instead of an outright ban on lighters and matches you examine the problem and come up with a logical solution. Not a knee jerk emotional reaction to a problem you'll never be able to correct. Ban all lighters? That's just silly. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/27/12 at 18:47:53 Feinstein Goes For Broke With New Gun-Ban Bill Posted on December 27, 2012 Print Share on print Email Share on email Share More Sharing ServicesShare on facebookShare on twitter Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.)—author of the federal “assault weapon” and “large” ammunition magazine ban of 1994-2004—has announced that on the first day of the new Congress—January 3rd— she will introduce a bill to which her 1994 ban will pale by comparison. On Dec. 17th, Feinstein said, “I have been working with my staff for over a year on this legislation” and “It will be carefully focused.” Indicating the depth of her research on the issue, she said on Dec. 21st that she had personally looked at pictures of guns in 1993, and again in 2012. According to a Dec. 27th posting on Sen. Feinstein’s website and a draft of the bill obtained by NRA-ILA, the new ban would, among other things, adopt new definitions of “assault weapon” that would affect a much larger variety of firearms, require current owners of such firearms to register them with the federal government under the National Firearms Act, and require forfeiture of the firearms upon the deaths of their current owners. Some of the changes in Feinstein’s new bill are as follows: •Reduces, from two to one, the number of permitted external features on various firearms. The 1994 ban permitted various firearms to be manufactured only if they were assembled with no more than one feature listed in the law. Feinstein’s new bill would prohibit the manufacture of the same firearms with even one of the features. •Adopts new lists of prohibited external features. For example, whereas the 1994 ban applied to a rifle or shotgun the “pistol grip” of which “protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,” the new bill would drastically expand the definition to include any “grip . . . or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.” Also, the new bill adds “forward grip” to the list of prohibiting features for rifles, defining it as “a grip located forward of the trigger that functions as a pistol grip.” Read literally and in conjunction with the reduction from two features to one, the new language would apply to every detachable-magazine semi-automatic rifle. At a minimum, it would, for example, ban all models of the AR-15, even those developed for compliance with California’s highly restrictive ban. • Carries hyperbole further than the 1994 ban. Feinstein’s 1994 ban listed “grenade launcher” as one of the prohibiting features for rifles. Her 2013 bill carries goes even further into the ridiculous, by also listing “rocket launcher.” Such devices are restricted under the National Firearms Act and, obviously, are not standard components of the firearms Feinstein wants to ban. Perhaps a subsequent Feinstein bill will add “nuclear bomb,” “particle beam weapon,” or something else equally far-fetched to the features list. •Expands the definition of “assault weapon” by including: •Three very popular rifles: The M1 Carbine (introduced in 1944 and for many years sold by the federal government to individuals involved in marksmanship competition), a model of the Ruger Mini-14, and most or all models of the SKS. •Any “semiautomatic, centerfire, or rimfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds,” except for tubular-magazine .22s. •Any “semiautomatic, centerfire, or rimfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches,” any “semiautomatic handgun with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds,” and any semi-automatic handgun that has a threaded barrel. •Requires owners of existing “assault weapons” to register them with the federal government under the National Firearms Act (NFA). The NFA imposes a $200 tax per firearm, and requires an owner to submit photographs and fingerprints to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE), to inform the BATFE of the address where the firearm will be kept, and to obtain the BATFE’s permission to transport the firearm across state lines. •Prohibits the transfer of “assault weapons.” Owners of other firearms, including those covered by the NFA, are permitted to sell them or pass them to heirs. However, under Feinstein’s new bill, “assault weapons” would remain with their current owners until their deaths, at which point they would be forfeited to the government. •Prohibits the domestic manufacture and the importation of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition. The 1994 ban allowed the importation of such magazines that were manufactured before the ban took effect. Whereas the 1994 ban protected gun owners from errant prosecution by making the government prove when a magazine was made, the new ban includes no such protection. The new ban also requires firearm dealers to certify the date of manufacture of any >10-round magazine sold, a virtually impossible task, given that virtually no magazines are stamped with their date of manufacture. •Targets handguns in defiance of the Supreme Court. The Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller that the Second Amendment protects the right to have handguns for self-defense, in large part on the basis of the fact handguns are the type of firearm “overwhelmingly chosen by American society for that lawful purpose.” Semi-automatic pistols, which are the most popular handguns today, are designed to use detachable magazines, and the magazines “overwhelmingly chosen” by Americans for self-defense are those that hold more than 10 rounds. Additionally, Feinstein’s list of nearly 1,000 firearms exempted by name (see next paragraph) contains not a single handgun. Sen. Feinstein advocated banning handguns before being elected to the Senate, though she carried a handgun for her own personal protection. •Contains a larger piece of window dressing than the 1994 ban. Whereas the 1994 ban included a list of approximately 600 rifles and shotguns exempted from the ban by name, the new bill’s list is increased to nearly 1,000 rifles and shotguns. Other than for the 11 detachable-magazine semi-automatic rifles and one other semi-automatic rifle included in the list, however, the list appears to be pointless, because a separate provision of the bill exempts “any firearm that is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action.” The Department of Justice study. On her website, Feinstein claims that a study for the DOJ found that the 1994 ban resulted in a 6.7 percent decrease in murders. To the contrary, this is what the study said: “At best, the assault weapons ban can have only a limited effect on total gun murders, because the banned weapons and magazines were never involved in more than a modest fraction of all gun murders. Our best estimate is that the ban contributed to a 6.7 percent decrease in total gun murders between 1994 and 1995. . . . However, with only one year of post-ban data, we cannot rule out the possibility that this decrease reflects chance year-to-year variation rather than a true effect of the ban. Nor can we rule out effects of other features of the 1994 Crime Act or a host of state and local initiatives that took place simultaneously.” “Assault weapon” numbers and murder trends. From the imposition of Feinstein's “assault weapon” ban (Sept. 13, 1994) through the present, the number of “assault weapons” has risen dramatically. For example, the most common firearm that Feinstein considers an “assault weapon” is the AR-15 rifle, the manufacturing numbers of which can be gleaned from the BATFE’s firearm manufacturer reports, availablehere. From 1995 through 2011, the number of AR-15s—all models of which Feinstein’s new bill defines as “assault weapons”—rose by over 2.5 million. During the same period, the nation's murder rate fell 48 percent, to a 48-year low. According to the FBI, 8.5 times as many people are murdered with knives, blunt objects and bare hands, as with rifles of any type. Traces: Feinstein makes several claims, premised on firearm traces, hoping to convince people that her 1994 ban reduced the (relatively infrequent) use of “assault weapons” in crime. However, traces do not indicate how often any type of gun is used in crime. As the Congressional Research Service and the BATFE have explained, not all firearms that are traced have been used in crime, and not all firearms used in crime are traced. Whether a trace occurs depends on whether a law enforcement agency requests that a trace be conducted. Given that existing “assault weapons” were exempted from the 1994 ban and new “assault weapons” continued to be made while the ban was in effect, any reduction in the percentage of traces accounted for by “assault weapons” during the ban, would be attributable to law enforcement agencies losing interest in tracing the firearms, or law enforcement agencies increasing their requests for traces on other types of firearms, as urged by the BATFE for more than a decade. Call Your U.S. Senators and Representative: As noted, Feinstein intends to introduce her bill on January 3rd. President Obama has said that gun control will be a “central issue” of his final term in office, and he has vowed to move quickly on it. Contact your members of Congress at 202-224-3121 to urge them to oppose Sen. Feinstein’s 2013 gun and magazine ban. Our elected representatives in Congress must here from you if we are going to defeat this gun ban proposal. You can write your Representatives and Senators by using our Write Your Representatives tool here: http://www.nraila.org/get-involved-locally/grassroots/write-your-reps.aspx Millions of Americans own so-called “assault weapons” and tens of millions own “large” magazines, for self-defense, target shooting, and hunting. For more information about thehistory of the “assault weapon” issue, please visit www.GunBanFacts.com. http://www.nraila.org/legislation/federal-legislation/2012/feinstein-goes-for-broke-with-new-gun-ban-bill.aspx I said it before on this forum. I hate this woman. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/27/12 at 19:22:57 The NRA is not a viable source for information.. They are only teasing the paranoid to run out and buy up weapons... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 12/27/12 at 20:53:10 http://www.redstate.com/ulyssesarn/2012/12/27/dianne-feinsteins-gun-ban-legislation-proof-we-are-in-a-post-constitutional-republic/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/dianne-feinstein-assault-weapons-ban_n_2311477.html http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/27/alert-sen-diane-feinstein-releases-gun-ban-summary-for-2013/ Straight from her wrinkly old bergina. http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/assault-weapons --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/28/12 at 06:41:19 Better run out and buy some guns... It still won't pass, everytime somebody hears a rumor or a bill being introduced the NRA (In all its wisdom) pushes it as a "Buy more guns" fear tactic.. It used to be a good organization, teaching gun safety, and promoting the sport, it is now a political hate group, everybody gotta have a gun, pay us, kinda group.. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/28/12 at 18:45:35 53647573646065010 wrote:
Exactly wrong. The NRA has 65,000 some odd safety instructors each conducting several safety courses annually. With likes of the SCHLIB and Feinstein and Schumer making the rules, and bypassing Congress with illegal schemes like executive orders, it is quite understandable the NRA would be more outspoken,,.... to make sure the public doesn't get schnookered more than they are already. I'm truly glad the NRA is there, doing what it does. Otherwise the SCHLIB would have his way, take guns away from everyone, and give a huge advantage to criminals and government,... oops, I was superfluous there for a sec. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/28/12 at 20:30:57 0F313A272A272A480 wrote:
Exactly wrong. The NRA has 65,000 some odd safety instructors each conducting several safety courses annually. With likes of the SCHLIB and Feinstein and Schumer making the rules, and bypassing Congress with illegal schemes like executive orders, it is quite understandable the NRA would be more outspoken,,.... to make sure the public doesn't get schnookered more than they are already. I'm truly glad the NRA is there, doing what it does. Otherwise the SCHLIB would have his way, take guns away from everyone, and give a huge advantage to criminals and government,... oops, I was superfluous there for a sec. [/quote] Yep, and they charge big bucks for every safety course! Its not about gun safety, its about how many schnooks they can milk, and how many guns their backers (Gun manufacters) can sell... They are cutting their own throats.... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/28/12 at 22:32:39 "I'm truly glad the NRA is there, doing what it does. Otherwise the SCHLIB would have his way, take guns away from everyone, and give a huge advantage to criminals and government"...Parquat Jezuss! what horsesh!t...you still think that you will defend yourself from the US government with your toys?? ;D ;D I've posted this before, and I'll post it again. The NRA currently has Ted Nugent sitting on their Board of Directors, Nugent has advocated the assassination of Barack Obama on at least three seperate occasions yet the NRA continues to allow him to sit on their Board and speak for the organization. The NRA is the most dangerous domestic terrorist organization in America. Before anything can ever be done to curb gun violence in this nation the NRA must be dealt with..banned, dismantled, sued, ridiculed, fought against with seething righteous anger. It must go and be forever banned. Then the politicians can address gun issues from the perspective of intelligence, common sense, and the will of the people without having to bow and scrape to this gang of thugs. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/28/12 at 22:54:52 Mother of Youngest Sandy Hook Victim Gives Wrenching Interview. <snip> Mrs. Pozner also recalls the gut-wrenching trauma of learning about her son’s death as she waited with other Sandy Hook parents and children in a nearby firehouse: For hours, she sat in the firehouse, waiting. Her stomach clenched; she vomited in the bathroom. When she came out there was pizza and donuts, but she couldn’t eat. Soon, nuns, priests, ministers and a rabbi arrived. “When I saw all those clergy people I knew in my gut of guts and my heart of hearts that they were dead,” she recalls. “I knew there was absolutely no way they would dispatch this multi-denominational fan of clergy people were it not the case that the news would be absolutely catastrophic.” Finally, an official announcement was made: 20 child fatalities. “That is when, for me, my whole world shifted on its axis,” she says. “It was like you are sitting in a room, and everything, including you, is turned upside down and you are sitting on the ceiling instead of the floor. You have this surreal sense of void, like all the air has been sucked out of the room.” Veronique wanted to place a blanket on Noah. “They told us, ‘No, it is a crime scene.’ They would not let us go.” And in a harrowing description of Noah’s corpse laid to rest, some idea is given of the damage the assault weapon wrought on his young body: The family placed stuffed animals, a blanket and letters to Noah into the casket. Lastly, Veronique put a clear plastic rock with a white angel inside —an “angel stone” — in his right hand. She asked the funeral director to place an identical one in his left, which was badly mangled. Noah’s famously long eyelashes, which she spoke about in her eulogy, rested lightly on his cheeks and a cloth covered the place where his lower jaw had been. <end of snip> And yet some still want to argue that having this capability is some sort of "right". These innocent sweet children taken from this world so brutally. So senslessly... Ah Right, The NRA Says...we can solve this kind of thing, all we need is more guns, more and more guns in America. This is our Nations Shame. No one Can stop the violence. However we can and must stop the guns! "Now that a few more days have passed since this mass murder by a nut, let's try a little perspective. Hundreds of kids this age and younger die each year from abusive parents and baby sitters who shake them or otherwise physically abuse them. Maybe your efforts ought to go toward preventing that. Hundreds of kids this age or younger drown each year in backyard swimming pools - would you ban pools? What about the parents who have fatal car wrecks, killing thier kids, while yapping on a cell phone? Hundreds of kids die each year from this also." Jerry "Ban parents. Ban reproducing... We should ban fire. Put stricter regulations on lighters and matches. " Paraquat ...Never mind guns, LOOK over there, a kid drowned in a swimming pool!!...and and LOOK over there, someone is shaking a baby!!! OOooo and look over here, a child died in an automobile accident!!! See See See, look at all the carnage!!!...(psst, but never mind guns...hee hee.) ( Note: Jerry, I'm somewhat suprised that a man of your intellengence and character is defending the crazies. While we are discussing and demanding what to do, may I respectfully ask that you stop and take a look at what is happening in this country...take a GOOD look...you may not like what you see.) And to Parquat, go sell stupid somewhere else, we're all stocked up here. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/29/12 at 07:17:52 I think the letter in the WSJ today sums up exactly what I also think is the current lay of the land regarding school shootings and gun laws. The one fact we should all be able to agree on is this shooting could have never taken place at the private school where the President (and Meet the Press's David Gregory) sends his kids because of the presence of trained, armed guards. By ROBERT BERNAT I am not a member of the National Rifle Association, nor am I a member or contributor to any Second Amendment rights group. I am, however, a parent of young children who attend a grammar school not unlike Sandy Hook Elementary in an affluent community not dissimilar to Newtown, Conn. Like the entire nation, I grieve for those who lost their lives at the hands of Adam Lanza in a truly senseless and barbaric act. Most Americans agree that dramatic steps must be taken to prevent the recurrence of a horrible event like that of Dec. 14, 2012. Just what steps should be taken is a matter of disagreement. After considerable thought I have sadly concluded that Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the National Rifle Association, is correct when he advocates for armed security in the country's more than 100,000 schools. The solution is only a partial one, but placing armed, highly trained personnel on school premises will move the country more swiftly toward its goal of safer schools than the complex steps being offered up by legislators and commentators alike on Sunday-morning talk shows. In fact, many of the attractive solutions bandied about stand little chance of ameliorating the problem of gun violence directed at school children or are only long-term measures that cannot yield immediate results. For example, it is not viable, nor is it likely constitutional, to undertake the suggestion of Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D., N.Y.), which is simply to outlaw all guns. Americans reportedly own more than 300 million guns, of which tens of millions are semiautomatic assault weapons. The genie is out of the bottle and cannot be put back. A blanket ban on the commercial sale of assault-type rifles and large-capacity magazines would also impart a false and dangerous sense of security to parents. Had such a law been in place and inhibited Adam Lanza's access to a Bushmaster AR-15 and high-capacity magazines, the results of his rampage would have likely been identical. He could have blown open the front door of the school with the shotgun that he left in his car trunk, and once inside the classrooms he could have reloaded his Glock and Sig Sauer pistols at lightning speed with fresh low-capacity magazines. It is widely agreed, in the wake of Sandy Hook, that the country's mental-health system needs radical reworking. It was reported that there are at least 70,000 violent, mentally ill individuals walking America's streets at any given time. Several observers have noted that the perpetrators of mass slayings at educational institutions tend to be white males, age 17-24, socially isolated, introverted individuals who dwell significantly in the videogame world. Perhaps there is a constitutional and medically rigorous method to screen for and profile psychologically such inherently dangerous individuals and thereby intercept them before the carnage. Perhaps not. The country should commit the resources both legally and medically to find out, but this is a long-term proposition fraught with privacy-law concerns. It will not in any event yield the immediate security so desperately needed. The killers' immersion in videogames has brought to the fore a welcome discussion of what role popular culture plays in desensitizing young males to violence. The casual carnage in movies and videogames may well affect some susceptible young men so profoundly that they are indifferent to the reality and finality of pointing a real weapon at a human being and then pulling the trigger. But this is a societal issue wrapped in the First Amendment and, again, no prompt solutions will emerge from discussions of the matter. After the terrible killings at Columbine High School in Colorado in 1999, almost every school in America put in place emergency plans intended to prevent a similar attack. The grammar school with which I'm most familiar has a lockdown plan similar to the one instituted at Sandy Hook Elementary, including a buzzer system to gain entry after vetting by the school secretary through a window, deadbolt locks on classroom doors, and evacuation drills for students and faculty. What happened at Sandy Hook was not the failure to plan; it was the failure of the plan. The teachers and administrative staff executed their school district's plan heroically in trying to save lives, some at the loss of their own. Police departments changed their policies after Columbine and now rush to the source of an incident inside a school building at great risk to themselves. But a major flaw in such plans persists to this day—namely that it takes just a few unguarded minutes for a catastrophe to unfold. I have no desire to turn my children's school into an armed camp. But I firmly believe that had there been armed, trained security personnel anywhere near the front entrance of Sandy Hook Elementary on the morning of Dec. 14, Adam Lanza either never would have approached the school or his attack would have had a radically different outcome. One-third of the nation's elementary, middle and high schools reportedly already have armed security on campus. In 2000, President Clinton marked the one-year anniversary of Columbine by proposing a significant expansion of the government's existing "COPS in Schools" program. Now that the National Rifle Association's Mr. LaPierre has made a similar proposal, he is being ridiculed. Why? Dr. Bernat is a physician and attorney in Highland Park, Ill. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/29/12 at 07:28:50 Classic lies from the repugs. Yea put cops in schools ... and cut down government ... How the Fruck does those 2 even go in the same sentence. This is what gun nuts want to talk about. Anything but guns. One fool on the radio, who owned a gun store in wyoming claimed the pencil in his pocket was anassault weapon, cos the govt taught him to do something with it ... yea, stick it in your enemy's eye. OK that is good, you killed 1 person standing within 2 feet of you, great, then what ? Morons, gun nuts you have lost, all this BS is more along the lines of "forcible rape and shutting the whole thing down". Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 12/29/12 at 09:00:02 I don't believe anyone could find a ' classic lie' in the man's entire letter. What classic lie; specifically? I thought the man brought up valid points and suggested ideas. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/29/12 at 13:53:29 Armed, trained security personnel in every school? Medically rigorous method to screen for and profile psychologically such inherently dangerous individuals and thereby intercept them before the carnage? Oh sure, and WHO is going to pay for all of this?... Yeah right (snort) the wingnuts are howling mad about ANY money being spent on health care of any kind. These NRA talking points horsesh!t is stinking up the place..... ************************************************************** Gun Deaths: A Familiar American Experience Source ABC News <snip> In America, over one dozen guns are legally sold every minute of every day. There are almost 300 million privately-owned firearms in this country — that’s almost enough to arm every man, woman and child — but while there is a gun in four out of every 10 of American homes, only a small percentage of owners have most of the weapons, with the average collection swelling in recent years to around seven guns per owner. The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, a non-profit organization, points out that Americans still kill each other with guns at a level that is staggering compared to the rest of humanity. A study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery found that the gun murder rate in the U.S. is almost 20 times higher than the next 22 richest and most populous nations combined. Among the world’s 23 wealthiest countries, 80 percent of all gun deaths are American deaths and 87 percent of all kids killed by guns are American kids. But regardless, polls show that public attitudes don’t change, even after a mass slaughter like this. Forty-nine percent say it’s more important to protect gun rights while 45 percent favor tighter gun control. But no one of any political stripe can denying the human cost of our collective trigger fingers. According to the Children’s Defense Fund, in the 44 years since Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were shot to death, bullets have ended the lives of more than one million people — including 12 in Aurora, Colo., who came together at midnight, just looking to cheer for a superhero, and 26 people, 20 of them little children in Newtown Conn. who were in kindergarten with their whole lives ahead of them. <end of snip> Every time a gun is used to kill an innocent human, it's murder. Every time a murder occurs, the blood is squarely on the hands of the NRA and its blind followers who cheer this madness and disavow any responsibility for their guns and the carnage they cause. Yes, it is easy for "cold dead hands" lunatics to "dismiss (any) findings on their face," because they only care about their Goddam*ed guns, and their pathetic 2nd Amendment so-called right to pollute our society with 300 million fu*king guns and the highest gun death rate in the world. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Jerry Eichenberger on 12/29/12 at 14:36:54 Star - A few pages ago I posed a question that no one has answered. Of the gun deaths in the U.S., what percentage are drug dealer killing fellow dealer over either unpaid drug debts, or deals otherwise gone bad? For one, I don't care about these people - good riddance. The taxpayers were just saved a lot of money. Likewise, what percetange are other felons killing their own kind? Again, good riddance. I know some innocents, including kids, are victims of drive by shootings and the rare massacre like in Newtown. But I'll bet that the statistics of truly innocent people killed by guns would show a number far less, by many fold, than the numbers used by gun control advocates. Agree? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/29/12 at 17:42:32 3F303C363D303B373027323027550 wrote:
Yea there is a lot of low life on low life murders enabled by guns. There are also a lot of suicides by gun. Those 2 are categories I can say are where guns are only incidental. If not a gun, they would hang themsleves, or stab each other. This year 2012 there have been 280 some, 2011 was almost as much that fit the profile of the current sandy hook/Webster (not our webstermark But a town called webster) murders. There is a site to get that info - I heard it friday on npr. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/29/12 at 18:25:31 Long time Anti-Gun Advocate State Senator R.C. Soles, 74, shot one of two intruders at his home just outside Tabor City , N.C. about 5 p.m. Sunday, the prosecutor for the politician's home county said. The intruder, Kyle Blackburn, was taken to a South Carolina hospital, but the injuries were not reported to be life-threatening, according to Rex Gore, district attorney for Columbus, Bladen andBrunswick counties.. The State Bureau of Investigation and Columbus County Sheriff's Department are investigating the shooting, Gore said. Soles, who was not arrested,declined to discuss the incident Sunday evening. "I am not in a position to talk to you," Soles said by telephone. "I'm right in the middle of an investigation." The Senator, who has made a career of being against gun ownership for the general public, didn't hesitate to defend himself with his own gun when he believed he was in immediate danger and he was the victim. In typical hypocritical liberal fashion, the "Do as i say and not as i do" Anti-Gun Activist Lawmaker picked up his gun and took action in what apparently was a self-defense shooting. Why hypocritical you may ask? It is because his long legislative record shows that the actions that he took to protect his family, his own response to a dangerous life threatening situation, are actions that he feels ordinary citizens should not have if they were faced with an identical situation. It has prompted some to ask if the Senator believes his life and personal safety is more valuable than yours or mine. But, this is to be expected from those who believe they can run our lives, raise our kids, and protect our families better than we can. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/29/12 at 18:27:04 On Sunday December 17, 2012, 2 days after the CT shooting, a man went to a restaurant in San Antonio to kill his X-girlfriend. After he shot her, most of the people in the restaurant fled next door to a theater. The gunman followed them and entered the theater so he could shoot more people. He started shooting and people in the theater started running and screaming. It’s like the Aurora, CO theater story plus a restaurant! Now aren’t you wondering why this isn’t a lead story in the national media along with the school shooting? There was an off duty county deputy at the theater. SHE pulled out her gun and shot the man 4 times before he had a chance to kill anyone. So since this story makes the point that the best thing to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun, the media is treating it like it never happened. Only the local media covered it. The city is giving her a medal next week. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/29/12 at 18:34:59 From the Sacramento Bee (mostly a liberal rag) last Thursday: Gun deaths and injuries have dropped sharply in California, even as the number of guns sold in the state has risen, according to new state data. Dealers sold 600,000 guns in California last year, up from 350,000 in 2002, according to records of sale tallied by the California Attorney General's office. During that same period, the number of California hospitalizations due to gun injuries declined from about 4,000 annually to 2,900, a roughly 25 percent drop, according to hospital records collected by the California Department of Public Health. Firearm-related deaths fell from about 3,200 annually to about 2,800, an 11 percent drop, state health figures show. Most of the drop in firearm-related injuries and deaths can be explained by a well-documented, nationwide drop in violent crime. The number of California injuries and deaths attributed to accidental discharge of firearms also has fallen. The number of suicide deaths involving firearms has remained roughly constant. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/29/12 at 18:37:04 & What is it that a Gyro Does? It spins Fast & maintains a steady course,, & Youre makin their heads spin with FACTS & stayin Right on course,, way to Gyro. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Midnightrider on 12/29/12 at 21:11:23 We have School Resource officers in our Middle and High Schools. Someone give me one good reason why we shouldnt protect our younger children. Dont say cost. We need to bring some of our military home and put them to work gaurding our own citizens doing the job they get paid to do. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/30/12 at 05:29:06 75515C56515F504C4A515C5D4A380 wrote:
While I don't disagree we should protect all our schools,.. cost is always an issue. -- We have only a given amount of money, and we already spend more than we take in. -- We need to stop overspending in stupid areas like congressional pay raises, the Wookie's staff and vacations, gun registration schemes, research on frog mating habits, subsidies for corn gas, fancy shopping areas for the military, the SCHLIB's golf expenses, etc. -- If we'd cut the Wookie's staff down to the size of Laura Bush's staff, that alone would fund a few hundred armed guards. The other issue is about using the military for civilian purposes. -- The founding fathers had a genuine and grave concern about having the military exert any force in civilian issues. -- While it seems to make sense to have a Marine kill a school shooter, we must be very very careful about the slippery slope. --- We have lots of laws, posse comitatus for example, that forbid using the military for even doing things like preventing illegal immigration. --- Anytime you put a military person in the position of shooting a non-military person who is guilty of only civil crime, we bump up against our long-held beliefs about keeping the military out of civilian matters. -- I'm not saying we shouldn't look into it, I'm just saying it will be very very difficult to redo the laws to allow military people to shoot civilian citizens. AND,... if we do that, where do you draw the line on what kind of civilian situations a Marine is allowed to handle? This would be very hard to define, and would put a Marine's life and/or career in jeopardy if in the two seconds he has to make a life/death decision he makes a completely understandable, but incorrect, choice. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 12/30/12 at 07:30:33 The CBI has just asked for more personel to help with the influx of new gun buyer investigations, over 4500 a day, they now have a backlog of two to five days! Paranoia at its finest... Oh by the way, if you are refering to the first lady as Wookie Gyro, I'll put your arse on ignore.. >:( |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/30/12 at 10:09:13 Yea yea yea gyro, excellent points ... so good guys should have guns, and bad guys should not ... how do you propose we do that ? Full blown backgorund checks and psych tests etc etc ? Or something else ? Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/30/12 at 12:51:14 1F212A373A373A580 wrote:
While I don't disagree we should protect all our schools,.. cost is always an issue. -- We have only a given amount of money, and we already spend more than we take in. -- We need to stop overspending in stupid areas like congressional pay raises, the Wookie's staff and vacations, gun registration schemes, research on frog mating habits, subsidies for corn gas, fancy shopping areas for the military, the SCHLIB's golf expenses, etc. -- If we'd cut the Wookie's staff down to the size of Laura Bush's staff, that alone would fund a few hundred armed guards. The other issue is about using the military for civilian purposes. -- The founding fathers had a genuine and grave concern about having the military exert any force in civilian issues. -- While it seems to make sense to have a Marine kill a school shooter, we must be very very careful about the slippery slope. --- We have lots of laws, posse comitatus for example, that forbid using the military for even doing things like preventing illegal immigration. --- Anytime you put a military person in the position of shooting a non-military person who is guilty of only civil crime, we bump up against our long-held beliefs about keeping the military out of civilian matters. -- I'm not saying we shouldn't look into it, I'm just saying it will be very very difficult to redo the laws to allow military people to shoot civilian citizens. AND,... if we do that, where do you draw the line on what kind of civilian situations a Marine is allowed to handle? This would be very hard to define, and would put a Marine's life and/or career in jeopardy if in the two seconds he has to make a life/death decision he makes a completely understandable, but incorrect, choice. [/quote] Bull sheiete on the funding issue. We need to put armed patrols in schools. We need to pay for it by taxing gun sales and yes, bullet sales. Heck, forget the gun sales, tax the living crap out of bullet sales. No govt being big is separate form this, flooding the street with guns, this is the side effects. Or we could tax the NRA membership fees if you so prefer. We are not going to cut down unemployment benifits to help gun nuts buy more guns and let those guns get to the psycho's and end up in more gun deaths. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/30/12 at 12:54:18 7A7B6067687D61090 wrote:
One of the realities of the cold, cruel, world is that the bad guys ALWAYS have guns. -- We would like for them to not have guns, and they are not allowed to have guns. They say, "So frackin' what??!!" They are going to break the law anyway, so having a gun to better their chances of being successful completely ignores any gun-related laws. -- More restrictive gun laws don't restrict these folks at all. This is the point the libs never understand. Write another law making it harder to get a gun,... who is affected by that law?,... not the bad guy,... only the guy that tends to obey laws (the same guy that would never use a gun for evil anyway) The key is to dissuade them from committing crimes. If they begin to think the good guys getting better armed, they don't like that at all. The crime rate goes down. -- Look at what happened in 1974 when Albuquerque police went on strike. The crime rate went down because as one of the few burglars apprehended during the strike exclaimed,"the f***ing civilians got their guns out, man!!!" They were dissuaded because they feared getting shot,... by folks like the 75 year old Grandma antique store owner who pulled a gun on them as they were holding her up, trembling so much from fear, the bad guys ran away simply from seeing the loaded cocked S&W waggling all over the place but generally pointed in their direction. -- Look what happened in Florida when the concealed carry laws and castle doctrine laws became a reality. The breakins, burglaries, muggings, hold-ups, etc., plummeted. This is NOT what the libs claimed (blood in the streets !!!) would happen. -- Look what happens in any American town when gun laws are changed to make it easier and more effective for law-abiders like you and me to have guns. The violent crime rate always,... always goes down. I'm in favor of instant background checks. I don't even mind it if personal sales involve background checks PROVIDED THE SELLER CAN CAN DO IT INSTANTLY AND FOR FREE. -- I sell a gun every now and then, and I do care that I am not selling it to a wacko. -- What worries me here, though, is that the SCHLIB and his lackeys will use the background check thing as a way to make it harder for law-abiders to buy and sell guns. While the intent is good, there are always ways for bureacrats to warp the system to make it do things it was not supposed to do. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/30/12 at 14:07:43 So the first lady is a wookie now. A wookie is a tall, hairy ape like species in "Star Wars". Wonderful, we have another racist among us. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/30/12 at 14:11:02 Concerning Gyro's Soles posting. This is an old story. Incidently I don't see any evidence in that article that he was anti gun. It was a story in NC for his being anti gay but gay himself. According to snopes.com. Soles had very high ratings from the NRA. NRA scores for the senator 1998 B 2000 B 2002 B+ 2004 B+ 2004 A 2006 A 2008 A So the NRA give the most anti-gun senator an A rating and the guy turns out to be an NRA favorite. (Anti-gun or not Mr. Soles was indeed a hypocritical lier on certian other matters. No doubt about that.) So draw your own conclusions concerning Soles. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/30/12 at 19:05:31 1D3A2F3C2227283A2B3C4E0 wrote:
I can see why you like Snopes so much, starry. They, like google and NBC, put a left spin on everything. We need a snopes for snopes. When I see snopes saying something like they are saying here, it makes me think the original reporting is valid, since they are trying to bias it toward the lib's anti-gun prejudices. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/30/12 at 19:07:23 183F2A3927222D3F2E394B0 wrote:
Are you really calling the Wookie a racist??!! that is a shock, even from you, starry! |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/31/12 at 01:15:56 49777C616C616C0E0 wrote:
I am sorry psych profile, not just background checks. It may be their first crime - as in the case of the Va tech shooter and sandy hook shooter. In fact Va tech guy was a foreigner too. Background checks catch criminals, you have that whole whacko category to contend with ... And why should it be free ? is anything else free ? maybe if they own a gun licence issued in the last 6 months or somwhere in there ? And no it cant be in 1 location of 1 state. It has to be nation wide, and it has to come without warning, and it cant be publicised after the fact either. It prevents that whole stock piling as well as alert criminals to the fact that its harder for everyone to get guns. Non whacko's and criminals will get it, whacko's will very very likely not, and of course criminals should never get it. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by LANCER on 12/31/12 at 04:41:42 We need to put armed patrols in schools. And why is this needed ? The danger is from LAWLESS CRAZIES. The answer is to force the judicial system to put violent criminals using weapons to commit crimes away for a LONG freaking time. If they hurt someone during the act they are in for LIFE; if they murder someone during the crime they are executed. PERIOD. That would be a substantial deterrent. We need to pay for it by taxing gun sales and yes, bullet sales. Heck, forget the gun sales, tax the living crap out of bullet sales. Yea, that's fair. Tax the law abiding citizens because of what criminals do. In case you have not noticed, we are ALL being taxed to death already for this and every other thing, yet what the gov't has been doing is not working. No govt being big is separate form this, flooding the street with guns, this is the side effects. Or we could tax the NRA membership fees if you so prefer. A 50% tax on gross sales receipt should be levied on all the movie studio's and actor's salaries who put out violent films. They encourage violence throughout our entire society. Besides, those FAT CATS make way to much money anyway; they need to pay their FAIR SHARE. We are not going to cut down unemployment benifits to help gun nuts buy more guns and let those guns get to the psycho's and end up in more gun deaths. WHAT ? ? ? What's with this dude ? You are not making sense. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 12/31/12 at 16:17:31 I think we're going to need to see more guns fall into the hands of whacko's and more bodies piling up, and then the gun nuts will be even more hard into the "guns for everyone" paradigm cos we need to stop the bad guys with guns by arming everyone. Well, if we had no guns, there would be no gun crime ... so the road to lowering gun crime is to flood it with guns ... yes, its perfectly logical. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by bill67 on 12/31/12 at 16:38:05 Its just common sense if theirs twice as many guns out there next year,It will be twice as easy for the kooks to get them.And the guns aren't the normal guns that people were buying before.The NRA president made $970000 last year.Peoples you are going to have to use your heads. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by LANCER on 12/31/12 at 16:55:18 3A3B2027283D21490 wrote:
P L E A S E tell me you are jesting and not really that naive. Saw a news clip last night or night before from England, about what has happened since hand guns were outlawed and destroyed by the gov't. Violent crime rate has risen 40% and Bobbies no longer walk the beat with just a whistle and billy club. They now wear body armor and carry weapons because of the increased use of guns by criminals. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by MShipley on 12/31/12 at 17:11:06 I was in St. Thomas hanging outside a store talking to the owner while my wife and friends shopped. (i never did like the shopping) anyway we were talking about the island and I asked how the crime was. He had an interesting answer. He stated there was virtually no crime between the locals because everyone knew that they all carried guns. He went on to say that the bad people on the island preyed on the tourist because they knew they were unarmed. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/31/12 at 17:54:44 72797C7C2627100 wrote:
Wrong again bill. If there are twice as many guns it will have no effect on bad guys having guns at all. They have never had any difficulty getting all the guns they want. If every McDs had a supply of AR-15s to sell to anyone who could pass a background check, it would make no difference at all to how many bad guys had guns. If we had 100 million Ruger Mini-14s for sale all over the country right now, the only effect it would have is that the ratio of armed good guys vs armed bad guys would improve. Your ilk makes so many senseless assumptions,.. the primary of which is that creating laws that make guns harder to get will have an effect on those who don't obey laws. sheesh. bill,... use your head,.... people who don't care about breaking laws don't care about breaking gun laws. Making more gun laws does not affect anyone who doesn't care about breaking the law. The bad guys don't worry about gun laws because they don't worry about laws at all. Criminals have all the guns they want because they don't have to worry about the laws that we law-abiders must abide by. How many different ways do we need to say it? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/31/12 at 17:55:45 455B606178646D71080 wrote:
Eureka!!! A real world example. This is a bit of what Heinlein was saying,.. "An armed society is a polite society." |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 12/31/12 at 21:55:39 "An armed society is a polite society." Jaysus! How many more times are we going hear these NRA talking points repeated? It's getting old, very old, and it's getting on people's nerves...for God sake come up with something new and original. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 12/31/12 at 22:13:12 17302536282D22302136440 wrote:
Cast dispersions as you may, coming from you they are usually inaccurate, as is this one. The NRA does the country quite a bit of good, but they never said anything about an armed society being a polite society. Robert Heinlein gets the credit for that. Doesn't make much diff who said it though, eh? It is still a valid point. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by LANCER on 01/01/13 at 06:58:53 4D6A7F6C7277786A7B6C1E0 wrote:
No, not talking points, just real life examples like the news clip I saw of the problems in the UK since hand guns were outlawed. If you choose to not be armed then that is certainly your right. I have the same right to be armed to protect myself and my family. I will pray that you and your family never have a need to defend your lives, because if you do the result will not likely be good. Do you think it will never happen ? What are the statistics of violent home invasions ? Shootings on the streets ? Does it happen where you live ? Point is, you never know what tomorrow may bring. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 01/01/13 at 07:26:52 The one thing all of the latest mass killings had in common, the shooters were insane. Now some think that more guns are the answer, they would be wrong. Some think that no guns are the answer, they would be wrong also.. What this nation needs is a wakeup call, the mentally incompetent are getting their hands on weapons, the NRA backs this action, even encourages it by shouting wolf everytime someone talks gun control.. The mentally ill and the paranoid run out to buy more weapons, proof is in the fact that most states have a run on guns right now, manufacters are hiring.. Over 6000 background checks in ONE day in Colorado alone! Now we are on our way to a real warzone, the paranoid and the mentally ill are ready to pull the trigger, claim self defense, stand your ground, make my day hero's, leaving those of us who have owned weapons all our lives in a tough spot.. Weapons are not toys, they are not like buying a new car, they do not reflect status, THEY ARE A TOOL, a very deadly tool.. Using them, storing them, and handling them properly are part of your second amendment rights!!!! The words "Well Regulated" are there for all to see.. So unless we get responsible gun owners to back responsible regulation, we are asking for a nation of fools to turn this nation into a warzone. Background screening to include anyone who has been under a shrinks care, under the influence of anti-depressants, have mandatory safety classes which include securing weapons, and proficiency training. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Gyrobob on 01/01/13 at 18:15:52 6C5B4A4C5B5F5A3E0 wrote:
Do you really expect anyone to believe the NRA wants insane people to have guns? Those kinds of statements toy with your credibility. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 01/01/13 at 19:28:52 Eureka!!! A real world example. Man accidentally shoots himself in testicles A man accidentally shot himself in the testicles at Lowe's Home Improvement store in Lynnwood Sunday afternoon, police said. Seattle Times staff A man accidentally shot himself in the testicles at Lowe's Home Improvement store in Lynnwood Sunday afternoon, police said. The man's handgun, which was in the waistband of his pants, went off at about 12:30 p.m. — an apparent "accidental discharge," according to Shannon Sessions, a Lynnwood police spokeswoman. "It made a loud noise and scared a lot of people in the store," Sessions said. "I believe he shot himself in the testicles and he also had some injuries to his leg and foot, and was bleeding profusely from his groin. He was obviously in shock." Nobody else was hurt and no one appeared to be with the man, she said. Police and fire responded, and the man was rushed to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle before police had a chance to interview him extensively. Sessions had no further details about the man. Lynnwood police are continuing to investigate but "at this point it does look like it's accidental," Sessions said. A manager at Lowe's said store personnel are not commenting on the incident. (Darwin award...at least this fool won't be reproducing.) Concealed gun owner shoots own buttocks and wounds children at Dallas Walmart A licensed concealed handgun owner from Waco, Texas hurt more than his pride on Monday when his weapon accidentally discharged while he was reaching for his wallet at a Dallas Walmart store. Police said that Todd Canady, 23, was in the checkout line when he fired the pistol he was carrying inside his pants. (talk about clean-up in aisle three.) Man accidently shoots self in Nevada theater – USATODAY.com usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012- Aug 15, 2012 – SPARKS, Nev. (AP) — Police say a man accidently shot himself in the buttocks at a Nevada movie theater during a showing of "The Bourne .. (I feel safer already just knowing these guys had loaded guns in their pants.) Man accidently shoots himself and dies during CCW course in Missouri. forum.opencarry.org › ... › Open Carry Brigade › This was a basic CCW class, not an advanced class (...guess he won't be graduating on to the 'advanced' class.) |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 01/01/13 at 21:11:35 4E707B666B666B090 wrote:
Do you really expect anyone to believe the NRA wants insane people to have guns? Those kinds of statements toy with your credibility.[/quote] Lets see here, examine the facts.. They do not want any new controls on gun purchases.. They promote unregulated gun ownership... They promote MORE guns into the general public to combat gun violence.. And they promote paranoia into the equation.. YES, I would say they are promoting guns in the hands of the mentally deficient... I would also say backing their hand would not only toy with your credibility, but put you as a someone not responsible enough to own a gun.... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by LANCER on 01/02/13 at 03:50:43 The problem with screening for medical or mental conditions or type of med's a persons doctor may be prescribing them is ... how do you gain access to everyones private medical information without violating their rights to personal privacy ? Going beyond a criminal background check is too dangerous where personal freedom is concerned constitutionally. Most all of the anti-depressant med's are used for multiple purposes. I have been prescribed for almost 20 years a med that is like that, it can be used as an ananti-depressant but for me it is used as a migraine preventative. So where do you go with that ? There are so many combinations just in the med's category that trying to make FAIR laws governing that would be a nightmare. When legislating an activity up front, requiring anyone to prove they are worthy, is the same as saying you are guilty until you can prove you are innocent. That is not the way we work things in this country; at least it wasn't when we were founded...innocent until proven guilty. Can you have a cop arrest someone because you think he is going to harm you ? Nope. The cop will say he cannot do anything until a "crime is committed". Restricting a citizens right to keep arms before he has committed a crime is saying he "might commit a crime" so he must be stopped before he does. THAT DOES NOT FLY under the Constitution. It is much to easy for a criminal to get a black market gun. Why don't we focus on the REAL problem, the BIGGEST problem, criminal activity. 99% of violent crime is cause by violent criminals involved in the commission of a crime. It is not the average law abiding person who likes guns.. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/02/13 at 06:17:17 Lets try this mathemarically ... I am going to assume somethings and yes when the assumptions change the conclusion may change. I know that. Lets call this a closed island country - which we are really, not. Then further lets assume there is a 100 people, and there are no guns. OK so now that we have all finished choking on that ... OK lets assume everything else is the same as now in the US. Gun crime = 0, not all crime, just gun crime will be 0. Yes people will be killing each other with ping pongs, swimming pools etc, just not guns. OK now here in this population I am going to assume 10% are criminals/whacko's/otherwise classifiable as lowlifes. OK If now we were to hand out guns @ random ... we have a 10% possibility of getting it into the hands of a lowlife. However we have people apply for the gun ... guess what, there is about 25% lets call them SCHLUB's who will never apply for a gun ... and the 10 lowlifes are the ones that will first run to apply. In effect what we need to do is create a full blown gun application system. Then walk into the street, and hand guns out to anyone who is not on that application list. Failing that, those that apply for guns, need to be severely scrutinised for not being a lowlife. In fact the 2 classes of people that will apply first for the gun are the lowlifes and the ones that have been threatened by the lowlifes. So handing out guns to people not on the list, is again not fool proof, cos one of the lowlifes will then kill one of the ones that they have threatened in the past with a ping pong. And if its one thing you dont want, its to be killed by a ping pong. I mean that is really right on par with being killed by foosball. I would seriously have guns only be saleable to someone after a full blown criminal and psych test. The past few mass shootings have all been by whacko's who didn't have criminal histories, except that Webster shooter. The the va tech, theater, the school, the grocery store parking lot, all whacko's without criminal records. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 01/02/13 at 06:23:54 We could appy the same thought experiment to any issues. Drunk drivers, auto deaths, plane crashes, etc..... There's a reason the phrase 'it's acedemic' was invented. It food for thought, not food for survival. Thought experiments are useful only if they can be scaled up to reality. We have 300 million guns in this country. I asked this question before and now that we are in thought experiment mode, go back before Columbine and pass a realistic law that would have stopped it. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/02/13 at 07:18:02 655750414657407F534059320 wrote:
Well one more of those very nice "lets talk about anything but guns as killers" mantra. And - How far back before columbine ... and how wide sweeping ? as in, do I get only that school as my jurisdiction or the whole state or the whole country ? I know, you'd say 1 day before columbine and I get to control only that school ? That is like fighting an atom bomb with a toothpick. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/02/13 at 07:25:24 704E4558555855370 wrote:
Eureka!!! A real world example. This is a bit of what Heinlein was saying,.. "An armed society is a polite society." [/quote] This is anecdoteal evidence. Not fact. And - They are talking career criminals ... whacko's dont care who is armed. These fools usually shoot themselves @ the end of it. Really, really self serving advice from the NRA. Like the judge @ a beauty contest who slept with 1 of the contestants ... and his solution was that to be fair, he should sleep with all of the contestants. Yea nice try NRA. Fool. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/02/13 at 07:36:32 6A67686563743431060 wrote:
This is a BS and completely facetious argument ... why ? Movies and video games in India also have a huge violent twist to them, obviously being an english speaking country (or a wannabe english speaking) we get all the hollywood fare ... and worse yet, the regional movies being cranked out try to out gun the hollywood ... 1/2 the hollywood CGI is written in India BTW, so we do all the explosions and the transformers and the crazy ass aliens etc etc anyway ... Guess what, gun crime is really really low in india, and India is not low in crime either, crimes against women and crimes of all types are rampant ... just no 100 people dead in a gun rampage ... Its like 2 people dead when the guy known as "hammer man" hits em with a hammer and runs away. Or robberies where motorcycle robbers rob a pizza place and beat + tie everyone up and run away on their bikes etc etc. There is a difference between movies and games and reality, and whacko's who dont know that, take guns out to the street and treat it like a video game ... either stop the whacko's from becoming whacko's or stop them from getting guns. Stopping whacko's from becoming whacko's will be the biggest govt program in the history of the world. Stoppping them from getting guns, or bullets would be 1000 times cheaper. The end. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 01/02/13 at 11:36:55 A young Indian woman who was gang-raped and severely beaten on a bus died Saturday at a Singapore hospital, after her horrific ordeal galvanized Indians to demand greater protection for women from sexual violence that impacts thousands of them every day. Maybe those women in India ought to get some guns and start blasting away to protect themselves since no one else will.... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/02/13 at 12:58:45 7D4F48595E4F58674B58412A0 wrote:
Ohhh god yes, except there is likely to be a lot of panic shootings then. They will then cover up their shooting by saying he was a rapist, then there will be cases of people stealing the gun and killing people like the Idiots have done in the last few killings in the US, like the webster guy, sandy hook guy, Va Tech guy, Arizona parking lot guy etc etc etc. They were all too crazy/criminals to get themselves a gun ... yet they managed just that. Dont need a new dimension to the problem in India. Mace/pepper spray may be a better bet. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/02/13 at 13:02:06 013F3429242924460 wrote:
Wrong again bill. If there are twice as many guns it will have no effect on bad guys having guns at all. They have never had any difficulty getting all the guns they want. If every McDs had a supply of AR-15s to sell to anyone who could pass a background check, it would make no difference at all to how many bad guys had guns. If we had 100 million Ruger Mini-14s for sale all over the country right now, the only effect it would have is that the ratio of armed good guys vs armed bad guys would improve. Your ilk makes so many senseless assumptions,.. the primary of which is that creating laws that make guns harder to get will have an effect on those who don't obey laws. sheesh. bill,... use your head,.... people who don't care about breaking laws don't care about breaking gun laws. Making more gun laws does not affect anyone who doesn't care about breaking the law. The bad guys don't worry about gun laws because they don't worry about laws at all. Criminals have all the guns they want because they don't have to worry about the laws that we law-abiders must abide by. How many different ways do we need to say it? [/quote] Sorry I would say wrong again ... Bill is closer to being right. The last many mass killings have all been at the hands of nuts who were never supposed to get a gun. If gun availability has doubled, there would be 2 X as many ... maybe not 2 X, maybe more like 1.9 X as many ... maybe. I'd like to think whacko's would be the critical mass there ... if gun availability doubles, the world will run out of whacko's ... he he. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 01/02/13 at 13:38:45 2C212E2325327277400 wrote:
Were the last three mass shootings comitted by a criminal? No, they were comitted by the insane, the mentally ill.. And if your under a shrinks care and he deems you violent, or a danger to yourself or others he CAN have you put in a mental facility, no one is saying someone is guilty of anything, just not competent to own a firearm! The latest DUI laws deem a person guilty until proven innocent, try refusing a toxicology test, see what happens... If you are under a shrinks care and he deems you violent, a danger to others, or suicidal, moves should be made to restrict your access to guns, PERIOD... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 01/02/13 at 15:27:33 how many of those who committed the last 3 mass shootings were under a doctor's care? if it turns out Lanza was under a doctor's care and he didn't force him to be admitted, is he then liable? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/02/13 at 20:05:56 Guys, please stop referring to these a$$holes by their names. They dont need to be remembered, they did it to be martyred. We do not encourage other whacko's to follow in their footsteps so they will have died and remain unknown. The theater guy, the arizona parking lot guy, the Va tech guy and the Webster guy all had their own guns. The webster guy was released after a 17yr prison sentence for killing his grand mother. No problem, he needs a gun. The other nut jobs bought the guns as well just fine. The sandy hook guy didn't buy guns, he got em from his mommy. Looks like the fool proof system of checking the purchaser is working ... Guys, psych profile not just criminal background checks , cos the whacko's are going to get their hands on guns otherwise. Even a psych profile wont work if Mommy will give the guns to the whacko kid ... of course she was dead, but still ... Nice firing guns to the whacko ... In any case, Va tech and the arizona parking lot guy was on medication for some severe mental issues (not sure paranoia I think in the Va tech case) I think you gun nuts are following the NRA's talking points perfectly, and they are running you clear off the edge of sanity. Psych profile and trigger locks, and you not a criminal, and not a whacko, no worries you can get your gun, and it will not fire when someone else get it from you. I have a question, when a whacko gets a gun, does he get NRA membership too ? How about a criminal ? Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/02/13 at 20:07:01 132126373021360925362F440 wrote:
Of course yea anything but the gun is liable ... Then if the guy was sent to an asylum, wont you be screaming about big government and how Obama is robbing you blind ? Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 01/02/13 at 21:05:45 The Aurora theater guy was under a shrinks care, the shrink warned the college he went to, and the college was trying to put him on the radar of the cops.. If the shrink could have pushed the button sooner it could have prevented him from the weapons purchase, but everybody stalled the process... Everybody who was around this kid that shot the little kids, knew he was nuts, so his Mom decided to teach him to shoot!!! That was brilliant, it cost her and 27 people their lives... I'm betting she was a NRA member... The joker who shot up the mall was on anti-depressants, and stole the gun from his friend.. Responsible owner, with no secure weapon, right? http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/11/jared-loughner-mass-shootings-mental-illness |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Serowbot on 01/02/13 at 21:45:09 The Tucson shooter was mad as a hatter, too... and the college he attended was warning everybody they could... Problem is... the same party that defends gun rights to the insane... won't even pay for standard health care,... furthermore, pay for mental health services.. which is lacking even in expensive, HMO style, care... They just want more guns... The solution to the gun problem... is more guns... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 01/02/13 at 22:58:06 Nine people shot in New York City just five hours into 2013 Read more: http://in.news.yahoo.com/nine-people-shot-york-city-just-five-hours-062908901.html ...Well that didn't take long. And that was in just one city in gun crazed America. Ah yes indeedy, there IS of course a very simple solution to this gun violence: More Guns! More Guns! More Guns!...yeah that's the ticket, More Guns!...and if that doesn't work it simply indicates that we yet need even MORE GUNS!!! ...Now back in the real world, I'm sick and tired of these false equivalency posts eg. "Cars kill too, so lets ban cars". If you see cars and guns as the same, maybe you should have neither. Here's a hint: Cars are a mode of transportation. That's what they are designed for and when used correctly, that is what they do. Guns are killing tools. That's what they are designed for and when used correctly, that is what they do. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/03/13 at 06:16:39 They - The gun nuts toeing the NRA's line - dont want to acknowledge the difference between accident vs intent. That whole blaming of ping pongs in response to gun control is just a reflection of that. I am sure they will now point to the NYC's strict gun laws ... ignoring the fact that most NYC guns are from GA, SC etc, and really criminals will be the ones to get them ... it cant be hard in 1 place and real easy else where. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 01/03/13 at 06:18:14 I’d be a little worried about encouraging doctors to lock up anyone who shows signs of trouble and I sure as hell don’t want to start punishing doctors who ‘failed’ to lock up some nut before he started shooting people. They’ll either lock up everyone or those who need help won’t seek them out for fear of being incarcerated. How many people would you have had to lock up since Columbine to stop Va-Tech, Tucson, Aurora and now Sandy Hook? How many people own guns or have access to them, play violent video games, have mental issues and are male? Hundreds of thousands? A million? The solution to the gun problem... is more guns That’s not true. ONE solution to the gun problem is better security at high risk places which for whatever reason, seems to include schools. That’s only one possible solution; there are others. If you want to gripe about the lack of money to fund mental health, fine. If we didn’t piss money away left and right on wasted programs, we could fund more mental health. I’m in favor of that. I’m not in favor of giving every Tom, thingy and Harry handouts like we do now. How much money did Hopey give to Solydra and Tesla? Nine people shot in New York City just five hours into 2013 Pardon me, but doesn’t New York City have strict gun laws? Doesn’t this negate your call for more regulation? Gun laws did nothing to stop the shootings above; Columbine, VA-Tech, Tucson, Aurora and Sandy Hook. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 01/03/13 at 06:22:13 I am sure they will now point to the NYC's strict gun laws ... ignoring the fact that most NYC guns are from GA, SC etc, and really criminals will be the ones to get them ... it cant be hard in 1 place and real easy else where. There are 300 million guns in the US right now! A gun has a working life of 100+ years! What law is going to make them disappear?!!! Are you going to put a sign up at the New York border that says no guns allowed and then sleep soundly at night? People who use guns violently against other people don't care about gun laws. They mean nothing to them. Passing another gun law will not stop a single thing. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/03/13 at 06:28:55 Yea bullets costing 50 bones a pop will bleed them dry in a few years. And guess what ... its cost free for the govt. OK so there is a lot of bullets out there ... Guess what, you wont be shooting off 100's of em into random people ... and you will keep your bullets locked up. Its free for the govt. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by MShipley on 01/03/13 at 06:59:36 srinith the problem with your solutions ( or goals ) is that they are unreasonable and ineffective. If the general public had to pay $50.00 for a bullet they and the criminals would just make thier own. Ammo is cheap to make. You would just create another black market item. The problem is not guns, cars, wars, poverty, or any other symtom. The problem is human beings and our culture. I do lots of mission work with the poverty stricken people of Nicaragua and they do not have these problems, (yes there are plenty of guns and there is plenty of crime). But culturally they have a faith that life comes from God and that life is precious, they understand that they are a member of a family and community, that they are responsible for. they work together to take care of each other because simple survival is difficult. Why do these conditions exist? The greed of evil men, and evil men are everywhere. Our culture is totaly different, we foster individuality, there is no God and we are just a cosmic accident no more meaningful to the world than pigs. We are taught to get out of the home as soon as you can, be your own man. We teach that happiness is measured in the amount of possesions you have. Get as much as you can, as quick as you can and if someone else has what you want then take it because its not fair they have more than I. Then we sit back and wonder why these evil, crasy people exist and we blame it on things like guns. all the while we sit in our houses, pontificating about the problems when we need to all get out of our houses sell some of our possesions to raise some money to just go help someone, anybody. The American people have to learn that these issues can only be fixed by the involvment of the people. Government and laws can not fix it. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/03/13 at 07:29:13 Once again you're sorta contradicting the NRA/gun nut talking point - I thought your background check was there to prevent criminals form getting their hands on a gun ? So they will have no guns, but will make bullets ? Which one is it ? can they get guns ... or not ? without a gun, a bullet is useless even if they make them. Then, you see the mass murders with the exception of the webster one, and that was 2 fire fighters as opposed to 27 ... were all whacko's, not career criminals. They will stop in their tracks ... even a whacko cant afford 1/2 mill in bullets. Oh well, he'd have to be whacko and a millionaire ... As soon as we find Bill Gates shooting up schools, we can worry about that. Better yet, you can buy bullets @ walmart, but you have to pay cash only for it, no credit card ... Cash only. See whacko's which credit cards can buy bullets on the card, shoot up the school and then kill themselves. Cash ... they need to have it sitting round. Anyway making bullets will work ... if the components of a bullet are easily available ... all of it has to be hard to get ... all of it needs to be made ... a bullet for $50 will look like a bargain. It will also instantly get people to lock their bullets up. It also cant be in NYC only, and not in philadelphia. A career criminal uses a gun to scare people, he does not want to use them. A whacko uses a gun like a garden hose, spray it and is not concerned wha the hits or doesn't hit. Nearly no control measure will stop a career criminal (think of snake on simpsons), however with a career criminal you wont have a pile up of dead bodies. He wont even care about killing 1 person, in fact he's careful to not kill that 1. See apu is still alive. The simpsons part is a joke. Bullets have a 10 year shelf life if taken good care of right. Pretty much they will stay locked up and never used frivolously if they cost $50 per ... and in 10 years, there wont be loose bullets any more. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Ed L. on 01/03/13 at 10:31:01 Ammo have a much longer life span than 10 years, there is a lot of military surplus ammo being sold in the country that was manufactured in the 1950's and 1960's which work fine. Currently there is a lot of surplus ammo being sold that was left over from the Korean war. Ammo has a indefinate life span as long as it is kept dry and out of the weather which is why there is so much being purchased and stored away for later. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by MShipley on 01/03/13 at 10:38:05 I read somewhere that if properly packaged ammo has a 100 year life expectancy. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/03/13 at 10:42:01 It should then cost 100 bucks a bullet. That way no one will want to use their stash ... truly self defence ... If you have a stash, its something to hold on to. If you need a bunch, you can buy ... and it will be 100 bones a piece. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by WebsterMark on 01/03/13 at 10:48:10 My brothers buy Nato rounds (7.62x54) by the barrel full for their Russian surplus rifles. Cabalas was just selling more of these Russian surplus rifles for $99 couple months ago. That happens 2-3 times per year. Have to buy sight-unseen. Some turn out to be barely used and very accurate. Others are not good for much more than a noise maker. The ammo is from the same time period; post-WWII, but before Vietnam. That puts them at 50 years or so. Last time we went shooting, probably 10% dudes, but they bought the cheapest they could find since we were just killing old beer cans. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by LANCER on 01/04/13 at 05:04:30 65647F7877627E160 wrote:
Restricting guns and bullets for all law abiding people is not the answer. Guns and bullets do not commit crimes; EVIL MINDED PEOPLE commit crimes. To stop crimes you must be able to change the heart of the person who would commit the crime, so that he/she no longer desires to do evil. That is the basic truth. It is not easy to do, but that is the only way to have peace instead of evil deeds. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Retread on 01/04/13 at 07:21:36 Good luck with that.... A friend has power of attorney for a buddy of his, he recieves all his mail, pays his bills, ect.. His Buddy is regulary getting notices from the NRA to join up in their fight against the evil Obama, and his minions who wish to strip the American people of their constitutional freedoms! I had the honor to read this drivel from the NRA and can say it was designed for the weak of mind, to instill paranoia and fear, nothing more... The funny thing is, this letter was sent to a crazy man, he is in prison for shooting at his nieghbors house........ |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/04/13 at 07:33:49 212C232E283F7F7A4D0 wrote:
Restricting guns and bullets for all law abiding people is not the answer. Guns and bullets do not commit crimes; EVIL MINDED PEOPLE commit crimes. To stop crimes you must be able to change the heart of the person who would commit the crime, so that he/she no longer desires to do evil. That is the basic truth. It is not easy to do, but that is the only way to have peace instead of evil deeds. [/quote] OK Lancer, I agree, a full on screening program for everyone, cos its got to find whacko's before they go whacko, when they are just crazy or nut jobs ... designed to recognize mental issues in people and treat them the right way, not medications that bottle it up till it blows up ... OK as soon as you send in that 2-3 trillion $ check to get it started, we can talk about how many centers - city, state and county level we should set up and how to outreach the ones who dont like daylight ... OK cool. Meanwhile, 100 bucks a bullet, 99 of it as tax to the federal govt, should actually ease our budget problems. Great idea, just have to pay for it. And we already all know that govt spending is too high ... Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 01/05/13 at 21:46:21 130 guns, 20,000 rounds of ammo found in foreclosed CT home http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/2013/01/05/cleaners-stumble-upon-guns-inside-conn-home/XEpTTBdXZNMrZM6BABe1qM/story.html Lost the home to foreclosure, but don't sell the weaponry?? I am not a "gun-nut"....I'm a gun owner - BIG difference. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by LANCER on 01/06/13 at 04:42:36 183F2A3927222D3F2E394B0 wrote:
"investigation showed the guns were legally registered to the resident....... The guns included shotguns and handguns....... Bank representatives went to clean out the home before the occupant had cleared out his belongings" Ok, so the person had a large LEGAL collection of guns and ammunition to go with them. There is no crime here. So who's business is it that this person had them ? He did nothing wrong. Did the bank give him a reasonable amount of time to get his stuff out ? We don't know from the short writeup. "gun-nut" ? ? That sounds prejudicial to me. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by LANCER on 01/06/13 at 04:58:17 47465D5A55405C340 wrote:
Restricting guns and bullets for all law abiding people is not the answer. Guns and bullets do not commit crimes; EVIL MINDED PEOPLE commit crimes. To stop crimes you must be able to change the heart of the person who would commit the crime, so that he/she no longer desires to do evil. That is the basic truth. It is not easy to do, but that is the only way to have peace instead of evil deeds. [/quote] OK Lancer, I agree, a full on screening program for everyone, cos its got to find whacko's before they go whacko, when they are just crazy or nut jobs ... designed to recognize mental issues in people and treat them the right way, not medications that bottle it up till it blows up ... OK as soon as you send in that 2-3 trillion $ check to get it started, we can talk about how many centers - city, state and county level we should set up and how to outreach the ones who dont like daylight ... OK cool. Meanwhile, 100 bucks a bullet, 99 of it as tax to the federal govt, should actually ease our budget problems. Great idea, just have to pay for it. And we already all know that govt spending is too high ... Cool. Srinath.[/quote] A full screening of everyone is fiscally and logistically impossible to do. There are just too many people and it is not lawful. Who is a wacko ? Who checks & decides who is a wacko ? Who checks the "checkers" ? Who checks the idiots in Washington ? Themselves ? ? That has been their pattern. They pass laws for us but exempt themselves from those same laws. The beginnings of a tyrant ? Hmmmm. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/06/13 at 14:16:24 6A67686563743431060 wrote:
Restricting guns and bullets for all law abiding people is not the answer. Guns and bullets do not commit crimes; EVIL MINDED PEOPLE commit crimes. To stop crimes you must be able to change the heart of the person who would commit the crime, so that he/she no longer desires to do evil. That is the basic truth. It is not easy to do, but that is the only way to have peace instead of evil deeds. [/quote] OK Lancer, I agree, a full on screening program for everyone, cos its got to find whacko's before they go whacko, when they are just crazy or nut jobs ... designed to recognize mental issues in people and treat them the right way, not medications that bottle it up till it blows up ... OK as soon as you send in that 2-3 trillion $ check to get it started, we can talk about how many centers - city, state and county level we should set up and how to outreach the ones who dont like daylight ... OK cool. Meanwhile, 100 bucks a bullet, 99 of it as tax to the federal govt, should actually ease our budget problems. Great idea, just have to pay for it. And we already all know that govt spending is too high ... Cool. Srinath.[/quote] A full screening of everyone is fiscally and logistically impossible to do. There are just too many people and it is not lawful. Who is a wacko ? Who checks & decides who is a wacko ? Who checks the "checkers" ? Who checks the idiots in Washington ? Themselves ? ? That has been their pattern. They pass laws for us but exempt themselves from those same laws. The beginnings of a tyrant ? Hmmmm. [/quote] OK great, so what do you mean when you say - Restricting guns and bullets for all law abiding people is not the answer. Guns and bullets do not commit crimes; EVIL MINDED PEOPLE commit crimes. To stop crimes you must be able to change the heart of the person who would commit the crime, so that he/she no longer desires to do evil. That is the basic truth. It is not easy to do, but that is the only way to have peace instead of evil deeds. [/quote] So in your words - What would find a person who wants to do evil and change their mind ? Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Starlifter on 01/06/13 at 16:35:18 "Ok, so the person had a large LEGAL collection of guns and ammunition to go with them. There is no crime here. So who's business is it that this person had them?" 130 guns?...well it's a stretch, but okay...maybe...But 60,000 rounds of ammo??? um no, this guy has a fetish, and is a 100% certifiable "Gun Nut". (Probably a threat to the community too.) 60,000 rounds of ammo is NOT a collection (like oh, say stamps). No, it's an arsonal. You have to wonder what's on this guys mind. This is a person who is mentally unbalanced. The kind who should be investagated, screened, watched. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by LANCER on 01/07/13 at 02:52:57 2C2D36313E2B375F0 wrote:
Restricting guns and bullets for all law abiding people is not the answer. Guns and bullets do not commit crimes; EVIL MINDED PEOPLE commit crimes. To stop crimes you must be able to change the heart of the person who would commit the crime, so that he/she no longer desires to do evil. That is the basic truth. It is not easy to do, but that is the only way to have peace instead of evil deeds. [/quote] OK Lancer, I agree, a full on screening program for everyone, cos its got to find whacko's before they go whacko, when they are just crazy or nut jobs ... designed to recognize mental issues in people and treat them the right way, not medications that bottle it up till it blows up ... OK as soon as you send in that 2-3 trillion $ check to get it started, we can talk about how many centers - city, state and county level we should set up and how to outreach the ones who dont like daylight ... OK cool. Meanwhile, 100 bucks a bullet, 99 of it as tax to the federal govt, should actually ease our budget problems. Great idea, just have to pay for it. And we already all know that govt spending is too high ... Cool. Srinath.[/quote] A full screening of everyone is fiscally and logistically impossible to do. There are just too many people and it is not lawful. Who is a wacko ? Who checks & decides who is a wacko ? Who checks the "checkers" ? Who checks the idiots in Washington ? Themselves ? ? That has been their pattern. They pass laws for us but exempt themselves from those same laws. The beginnings of a tyrant ? Hmmmm. [/quote] OK great, so what do you mean when you say - Restricting guns and bullets for all law abiding people is not the answer. Guns and bullets do not commit crimes; EVIL MINDED PEOPLE commit crimes. To stop crimes you must be able to change the heart of the person who would commit the crime, so that he/she no longer desires to do evil. That is the basic truth. It is not easy to do, but that is the only way to have peace instead of evil deeds. [/quote] So in your words - What would find a person who wants to do evil and change their mind ? Cool. Srinath.[/quote] My point is that, most of the time, we will not know who is going to do evil until it is done. That is not a pleasant thought but it is a fact. We cannot read a persons mind and we do not know all of what is in a persons heart, whether it is to do good or evil. The only way for us, as a society, to "minimize" these kinds of horrible things is to encourage good and right behavior in the society, and we do that one person at a time. I taught my children that there is RIGHT & WRONG, to do good things for each other, be kind to each other. When someone in a society does bad/evil things to others they should be punished according to the laws that the society has established. If they take something that is not theirs they should be punished and made to repay 2x. If they hurt someone they should be punished with substantial jail time. If they "murder" someone then their life is taken. There is an important difference between murder and kill. The intentional taking of a life with malice and forethought is totally different than having to kill someone in self defense. Murder is wrong; having to kill someone in self defense is our RIGHT to life. Does that make sense to you ? |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by LANCER on 01/07/13 at 03:15:06 557267746A6F60726374060 wrote:
Really ? Mentally unbalanced ? Who are you to make that claim ? Are you a psychiatrist trained in this particular specialty ? You may think that is too much ammo to have but is your opinion any more valid than his ? What is wrong with 20,000 rounds for 130 weapons ? Do the math; it is only 154/weapon. Not much at all when you think of it logically. His collection may have been all sorts of brands and cal.'s of the shotguns and hand guns. Many could have been antiques as well. If you had a unique gun it would only make sense to keep some hard to get ammo for it on hand. He may have been collecting for the last 50 years or more, or received many of them that were past down in the family and he just continued collecting as his father/grandfather had done. We do not know for sure if he had this type of collection or not, but regardless, 154 rounds per weapon is not out of the norm at all. |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by Paraquat on 01/07/13 at 06:17:00 How did it change from 20,000 rounds to 60,000 rounds between 4 posts? How many guns is he allowed to legally own? How many stamps are you allowed to own? Or cars? I own 3 cars and 2 bikes right now. I can only drive one at a time, but I'm free to own as many as I wish. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Associated Press: 27 Dead, 20 Are Children. Post by srinath on 01/07/13 at 08:15:37 7C717E7375622227100 wrote:
Make sense ... yes, are we willing to live under this reality - hell no. A $100 bullet will stop this mass killing mentality, and not affect the self defence crowd. That is until we keep guns out of whacko's hands. You make all these theories with the supposition that "there are tons of guns out there, no way to get it all back, so we are going to do something useless and ineffectual ... I think a 100 buck bullet will promptly drive all the bullets into safes. That way the whacko's have to after getting their gun, have to go and spend 5-6g in bullets for a rampage. Cash only ... Since we are all armed already, we would retain our bullets till we have shot them @ an intruder and then we would buy ... Heck, I would give an exepmtion to people who have shot someone in self defence - cops come and find a shot/dead intruder and the home owner has shot him 5 times and used up 20 bullets, OK he gets a letter saying he's entitled to 20 bullets. The cops could just dispense it @ the scene of the crime after ruling it as self defence. Cool. Srinath. |
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