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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Twin Air Filters /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1353899535 Message started by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 19:12:07 |
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Title: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 19:12:07 My 2 air filters arrived today. I am going to attempt to fit them both. I have seen pics of a Savage with twin filters and thought it looked cool. This mod is mainly for cosmetic reasons how ever I do want some performance improval as i have put bigger jets and have a larger custom header and muffler. If the twin filter doesnt work I will just fit the one. So I am headihg into this blindly and should prob do these posts when I have finished, Instead I am going to post pics as I go and seek advise. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 19:17:53 Went to my local hardware and brought some PVC fittings and pipe. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 19:23:22 I held the Tee joint in place and measured how much pipe I will need to fit between the battery box and the frame. I want to keep the stock air filter in so I can use it to store alot of the wiring, and use it for storage. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 19:26:40 I cut and glued pipe into the Tee joint. One side is longer than the other to cater for the battery box which is off centre. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 19:29:17 I then cut a joiner in half and glued each half onto the ends of the pipe to make the diameter bigger for a good fit inside the air filter. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by verslagen1 on 11/25/12 at 19:30:17 The lead in to the carb is important for performance. Try to have as long as the rubber ducky that was between the carb and the airbox. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 19:30:11 View from other side. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 19:34:17 302334352A2721232877460 wrote:
OK, Im a little limited due to the old air box. There will be 120mm from one filter to the Tee and 100mm from the other. Would that br enough? |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 19:35:53 So this is as far as I got today.Might not work but what the hell didnt cost much for the fittings. Like I said I will just put the one on. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by verslagen1 on 11/25/12 at 19:47:43 6A7B6F76777B6869727B76761A0 wrote:
OK, Im a little limited due to the old air box. There will be 120mm from one filter to the Tee and 100mm from the other. Would that br enough?[/quote] I think you would need that distance between the carb and the tee. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 19:52:46 253621203F3234363D62530 wrote:
OK, Im a little limited due to the old air box. There will be 120mm from one filter to the Tee and 100mm from the other. Would that br enough?[/quote] I think you would need that distance between the carb and the tee.[/quote] I think I might be heading into uncharted territory here. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by verslagen1 on 11/25/12 at 20:03:23 we've long established that the air before the carb should strait for a distance. This distance is best described as the length of that rubber duct. This is eliminate the turbulence in the air flow. There are other methods. But many people put on a pod filter and are disappointed. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/25/12 at 20:04:56 2 sanitary 90's, split & glued back to back,,?? |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by wambr on 11/25/12 at 20:54:57 the idea in General is interesting . the only pity is that in my climatic conditions it does not apply. I once tried to put a similar air filters. from a technical point of view do not see much reason to . for normal operation of the engine is more important in this case, the diameter of the inlet pipe. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 20:57:55 594A5D5C434E484A411E2F0 wrote:
I noticed Savage_rob fitted a pod straight onto the carb without that straight. Did it work for him? |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/25/12 at 21:59:26 2F3C2B2A35383E3C3768590 wrote:
So if I took Justins advice and made it more stream line by using 2 90s cut and joined, would that create less turbulence? |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by verslagen1 on 11/26/12 at 07:18:04 4D5C4851505C4F4E555C51513D0 wrote:
So if I took Justins advice and made it more stream line by using 2 90s cut and joined, would that create less turbulence? [/quote] The advice is for straight, smooth ducting that's well blended with the carb inlet. Pod filters mounted on the carb inlet have zero, and are usually poo poo'd by those trying to get a perfect tune. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/26/12 at 07:38:35 Im not talkin about just Any Ol 90* bits,, but the Drain Waste & Vent type, with the long sweeping bends, One part of engine tuning people dont study is intake design, I spent some time reading up on that. One recommendation that stood out to me was that its easier for an engine to get a gulp of fresh air in IF there is more volume between the filter & carb inlet. I modified the airbox to create a few more CC's in that area & left it. The more surface area the filter has, the easier it is for it to get air & the longer time between need to clean & in the box, its protected from some dirt & of course rain & stuff.. I wonder how many people who have taken fenders off & air boxes off would be working to add them if bikes all came from the factory w/o them,, |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by EJID on 11/26/12 at 08:17:12 302F292E33340535053D2F23685A0 wrote:
I believe these are the type of elbows justin was trying to reference... 90-Degree PVC Sewer Drain Street Elbow http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/052063/052063440903.jpg |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by verslagen1 on 11/26/12 at 08:22:11 3D2224233E3908380830222E65570 wrote:
Because such a design should be symetrical, the point at which the 2 are no longer separated, might be considered straight. The stock rubber ducky is about 2 diameter long and tapers as well. Good, sharp sectioning and joining of the 2 sweeping bends may provide the required length to straiten the air flow. Diamond Jim did some great work with intake experiments. EJID, there are some sweeping elbows that have a bigger bend radius. Typically used where things tend to get caught in the bend, especially during the half time of the super bowl. Those aren't much bigger than standard. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by 360k+ on 11/26/12 at 08:30:22 7D6E7978676A6C6E653A0B0 wrote:
Yep, the air volume and duct shape are important. If you think about it, the air space before the carb is kinda like a capacitor in electronics. When the intake stroke begins it gets stretched, but after the valve closes, it compresses, due to the velocity achieved. I have seen a computer proggie that allows you to experiment with various shapes, and see (visually) the resulting pressure moments within the chamber. Of course, RPM is also a factor in the equation as there is no single design that works across the entire band. In performance terms, you'd want to target a design that peaked where your cam, head flow, and exhaust all come together. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/26/12 at 09:26:10 Stuff like these parts,, sure enough some time around a plumbing supply would be a trip on the bike & a chance to add some visual snapshots into the brain, things to consider, ideas, http://www.homerepairforum.com/images/uploads/2004-11-30_Sanitary%20tee%20vs%20combo_w550.JPG Heck, with some careful slicin & dicin you mite even be able to get 3 pods on it, |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/26/12 at 09:45:13 Yes I see your point. I am going to abandon the straight T and get the 2 sweeping Ts. cut them and join them. My issue is I am trying to do this with the old air box still installed. My reason for this is I have a bunch of wires that are currently in and on top of air box restricting airflow due to the custom guard and single seat. If I got a little more creative I could remove the old box run a length of pipe over the batt box, put a 90 down and T it with both filters sitting where the side cover were. But I like the look of the side covers. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/26/12 at 10:46:00 I like the covers, too,, But,, determined people can find a way to put them up there w/o everything in between them thats there right now,, well,, maybe,, worth a look., |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by verslagen1 on 11/26/12 at 12:00:16 2 of these cut thru the middle of one flange and glued together might work great. But I think you may run outta room. http://imageserver.grainger.com/is/image/Grainger/1WJY8_AS01?$productdetail$ |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by wombat on 11/26/12 at 15:04:05 I put a Ryca Scrambler style elbow on my Savage and did some time on the dyno. Without a filter there is a huge amount of turbulence, witnessed by a record of the slide jumping up and down. With a filter it settles down, but there is an approximate loss of 5 horsepower. A big percentage on a 35 hp engine. Ryca tells me they have had no problems with their set up and used the bike on 100 mile trip where it did "just fine." 6F7E6A73727E6D6C777E73731F0 wrote:
I noticed Savage_rob fitted a pod straight onto the carb without that straight. Did it work for him?[/quote] |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/26/12 at 17:05:13 I have abandoned the T setup for now and fitted the pod straight onto the carb. And took it out for a ride. It has a definit improvement. It runs FREAKEN SWEET ;D. I owned a Honda CBR1000 a 90s model, Red ,white and blue full faring. And the pull I experience today remined me of my old Honda. I have a custom header with a diameter of about 1.800" and a custom made free flowing muffler. This exhaust is not production made, It was made to my specifications. Replaced both jets with a 55 and 155, And replaced the washer on the plunger with 3 smaller ones which make about half to three quarters of the original. Put on the pod and turned the air fuel screw 2 and a half turns. Turned the key and she fired up. :D |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by J C Stokes on 11/26/12 at 20:13:02 Still aesthetically pleasing Paul. It would have been interesting to know whether your knees would have cramped or interfered with the twin set up. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/26/12 at 20:51:30 I have put the twin filters on hold not completely abandoned as earlier mentioned. Im considering my options. I do agree with Verslagen and think the running could be alot smoother with a straight before the carb, It feels very raw. I may have too remove my air box to achieve my goal. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/30/12 at 21:08:17 I scrubed the first design due to the T having sharp corners, and now because I have removed the Battery box I have more room to move. I was going to cut 2 90s and join them but decided to use this. I have been told that a smooth flow is important and this T only has one flowing side because this T is designed for the flow of water. I thought that if I needed to I would seal the sharp side but put 2 filters on for aesthetics. As it turned out I left both sides open. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/30/12 at 21:10:07 I did have to cut the sockets down to fit it in. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/30/12 at 21:11:11 Glued the T to the 90 bend. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/30/12 at 21:12:57 Connected the carb with a rubber joiner and clamps. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/30/12 at 21:19:07 http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52-333-pvc-cross/double-sanitary-tee-116640.aspx |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/30/12 at 21:25:07 Fitted it to my Savage with both air filters and fired it up. Took her out for a ride and wow holy heck. It has a huge increase in power. The air sucking noise that the 1 filter produced is gone. When I had just the pod straight on the carb it ran good but didnt feel that smooth, prob due to air turbulence. Now that there is some pipe between the filters and the carb and it runs very smooth. I positioned the filters out past the side covers to collect cool air, And is free from my legs. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/30/12 at 21:28:13 091610170A0D3C0C3C04161A51630 wrote:
Im going to have to find one of those. That one is 3" and I used 50mm, I cant convert that. :-[ 50 mm is roughly 2 inches so is that T fitting avalible in 2"? |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/30/12 at 21:31:36 I used the last of my exhaust wrap to cover the plastic pipe, but looks rough so I will remove it and think of somethig else. Turned the filters vertical instead or horizontal. Not sure which looks best. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by J C Stokes on 11/30/12 at 22:32:58 Good Paul, glad to know there is no interference from legs, knees etc |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/30/12 at 23:11:37 Looking Good, mang! |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 11/30/12 at 23:15:46 3B242225383F0E3E0E36242863510 wrote:
Thanks dude I just need to come up with something to cover the plastic. I got to tell ya this mod has made a huge difference in performance :o and fuel usage :( |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/01/12 at 00:08:07 YOure just wanting to disguise that its PVC? If so, Ill take a shot. Some of todays body fillers are pretty light. Hafta texture the plastif up Good & then, when applying, hafta PRess the "bondo" into the scratches, "wetting" the surface. Shape it up W/ a cheesegrater tool. Its okay if ya dont get all of it "wet" & shaped up, just make sure all surfaces are textured before a new layer is allowed to go on over it. Once you smooth the shape up, you Mght be able to fiberglass it, IDK if PVC will handle that stuff on it, ORR? Use your part & read a little on makin a mold? |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by J C Stokes on 12/01/12 at 00:23:53 Paul, aesthetically, I like them horizontal |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 12/01/12 at 17:28:10 6C415B5A4140475A4B2E0 wrote:
I agree and have moved them. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by oldNslow on 12/01/12 at 18:36:53 5A4B5F46474B5859424B46462A0 wrote:
PVC takes paint pretty well. Maybe some silver with a clearcoat over it. Might look almost like chrome. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by paulmarshall on 12/01/12 at 18:43:56 57696864766A6B050 wrote:
PVC takes paint pretty well. Maybe some silver with a clearcoat over it. Might look almost like chrome.[/quote] Yes that is a option. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by J C Stokes on 12/01/12 at 22:47:53 None of my business Paul, but I'm struggling to see the issue here. In your posted photo the bike looks fine, maybe real close up you can see a colour difference in the PVC and the bike. If you can, paint the PVC with what you used on the rest of the bike. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by Gyrobob on 12/02/12 at 03:47:26 7F6E7A63626E7D7C676E63630F0 wrote:
PVC takes paint pretty well. Maybe some silver with a clearcoat over it. Might look almost like chrome.[/quote] Yes that is a option.[/quote] Do a yahoo search (not google) for "how to chrome plate plastic" and you'll get a zillion hits on different ways to do that,.. some cheap and some obscenely expensive. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by Dave on 12/02/12 at 12:20:09 Like said previously - PVC takes body filler and paint very well. You could use body filler to smooth out the space between the fittings/joints, then prime and paint in the color of your choice. |
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Title: Re: Twin Air Filters Post by ralfyguy on 12/02/12 at 16:23:21 In the Plumbing Supply house I work at, we have so called double sanitary elbows. They look like two elbows fused together to one inlet at one end and the split up to either side. That should work really well too. We stock them in 1 1/2", 2" and 3". |
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