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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Lost compression /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1353707727 Message started by Budro on 11/23/12 at 13:55:27 |
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Title: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/23/12 at 13:55:27 Well I just thought I had problem with backfires. Suddenly lost compression. Bike started fine went one block. Engine suddenly quit and no compression. I'm assuming a head gasket but thought I'd check here before pulling the head. Have done compression check and nada none zero. Seems like I'd get a little even with a blown gasket. Also I'm feeling air around the right had side of the head cover. A valve stuck open maybe? |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/23/12 at 13:59:14 Id check to make sure the decomp isnt hung up. If its not, then Id pull the plug & the oil fill & blow into the plug hole. If it comes out the oil fill hole, your piston may be leaking. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Serowbot on 11/23/12 at 15:47:18 213E383F22251424142C3E32794B0 wrote:
That's gonna' require Mick Jagger lips... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/23/12 at 17:25:27 Not if ya have a compressor.. Ive named mine Monica.. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/23/12 at 17:28:49 Thanks for the reply. So before I start tearing it down what's the decomp? I'm thinking it has a stuck valve since it has no compression at all but I never heard of a decomp. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by ZAR on 11/23/12 at 18:07:48 32232C212A2D2325232B2C420 wrote:
Budro it sounds like you do not have a manual. Before you go any further,download one and study it a while. (hint..there's a link here in the Technical Documents/Reference.....Table of Contents with links to a free service manual download). Anyway,the "decomp" is a decompression solenoid valve that relieves the compression to make for easier starting. It's located under the chrome tin on the left front of the head. As Justin pointed out,if that "decomp" is stuck open you loose compression. Now study,investigate,repair and let us know what you found! |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/23/12 at 18:27:23 Found it and loosened the cable so that the lever is completely down. Still no compression. Motor spends much faster than before, so if the lever is down is the exhaust valve closed or open? The solenoid seems to be functioning. I get a very load click when I hit the starter button, which makes me think the exhaust valve is stuck open. I'll get that manual downloaded. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by 360k+ on 11/23/12 at 18:27:36 594251030 wrote:
Without a manual you're like a blind man trying read a playboy bunny in braille. However, in either case, follow ZAR's suggestion to study & investigate, then let us know what you found. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/23/12 at 18:35:03 2422313A7A7670717A430 wrote:
Without a manual you're like a blind man trying read a playboy bunny in braille. However, in either case, follow ZAR's suggestion to study & investigate, then let us know what you found.[/quote] Reading a PLayboy Bunny the Braille method is actually preferable. Pull the valve covers & look.. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/23/12 at 18:57:01 I was afraid you were going to say that. Thanks |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/23/12 at 19:02:37 Thats the quick easy way to know.,.10 MM, 4 bolts. Get that wrench on straight & square. NOt a good place for a stripped off head of a bolt. Properly done, these bolts will last. Many swap for better quality stuff. Mine are stock, Im careful. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by verslagen1 on 11/23/12 at 19:04:56 6B7A757873747A7C7A72751B0 wrote:
closed, take off those inspection covers, and the header and see wassup. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/23/12 at 19:13:57 Took off the front cover. Turned engine over and nothing is moving. Shouldn't there be some valve moving? |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/23/12 at 19:21:34 Yep,, valves otta be goin Up & down,, They wont do that if the cam isnt turning, |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by verslagen1 on 11/23/12 at 19:31:31 sounds like you lost a cam chain. you'll have to take off the clutch cover to know for sure. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Serowbot on 11/23/12 at 21:53:47 On the bright side,... the engine is turning,.. and there isn't a giant gaping hole in your engine case... Hopefully the adjuster is laying comfortably at the bottom of the case... ...taking a nap... |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/24/12 at 05:09:43 That certainly makes me feel better. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/24/12 at 06:29:05 Yea, but Id sure leave that starter button alone till I had a look inside. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/24/12 at 06:33:28 Good advise. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by 360k+ on 11/24/12 at 07:46:41 4D5C535E55525C5A5C54533D0 wrote:
Let us know... with either the bunny or the cam chain. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/24/12 at 17:45:41 Gentlemen, The cam chain is no longer attached at both ends. :'( Any suggestions for the best chain to purchase? Also, while I'm spending money, I need a tool cover thingy. Preferably with a key. budsz |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/24/12 at 18:55:07 Before you go hunting a chain, spend some time fishing. Use a magnet & fish thru the oil you drained, Dump it thru a filter, a funnel with a lite cloth in it, see what bits & pieces may have gotten loose. If the chain is off,, did it break? Have you got the spring from the tensioner out? This is a good place for details in the posts & detail oriented inspection in that motor. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/24/12 at 23:36:58 Thanks man. I figure by the time I get the chain I'll be doing that and more. Looks like the top of the chain guide also broke off but the chain looks like its all there, just broken. Plus I'm not sure if the piston hit a valve, but I didn't hear anything when the bike died. I'll let you know how it comes out. PS: The Clymer manual isn't much help. Is there somewhere to download a Haynes manual? |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/25/12 at 01:32:00 Never saw a cam chain just Pop,, thats way uncool,, good luck. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Oldfeller on 11/25/12 at 07:23:26 From a leaking "oil cap" over to a broken cam chain apparently occurring after his attempted repairs to his head for "leaking oil cover" and "(s)tripped bolts". Quite a progression of destruction here. Notice also that Budro made the PROFOUND MISTAKE of not keeping his problem posts in ONE SINGLE THREAD -- as such the people attempting to help him never had all the information they needed -- he got some partial answers based on his 3 separate partial posts. Moderators, please stop a new poster from making multiple threads on the same bike/issues, cut the new one and append it to the original thread and message the new poster to KEEP ONLY ONE THREAD ON HIS ISSUES. Once Budro shows us the pictures so we can see the extent of his damage then the helper folks can perhaps suggest the correct teardown actions he needs to take. This assumes Budro is going to take recommendations, so far he has bulled along fairly rapidly with no repair manual with somewhat limited success. Threads Used: Replaced Cap Running Rich Lost Compression Budro's 17 posts in all threads, read them from the bottom (reverse order). "Thanks man. I figure by the time I get the chain I'll be doing that and more. Looks like the top of the chain guide also broke off but the chain looks like its all there, just broken. Plus I'm not sure if the piston hit a valve, but I didn't hear anything when the bike died. I'll let you know how it comes out. PS: The Clymer manual isn't much help. Is there somewhere to download a Haynes manual? Reply Quote Notify of replies 2 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Lost compression on: Today at 01:45:41 Gentlemen, The cam chain is no longer attached at both ends. :'( Any suggestions for the best chain to purchase? Also, while I'm spending money, I need a tool cover thingy. Preferably with a key. budsz Reply Quote Notify of replies 3 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Lost compression on: Yesterday at 14:33:28 Good advise. Reply Quote Notify of replies 4 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Lost compression on: Yesterday at 13:09:43 That certainly makes me feel better. Reply Quote Notify of replies 5 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Lost compression on: Yesterday at 03:13:57 Took off the front cover. Turned engine over and nothing is moving. Shouldn't there be some valve moving? Reply Quote Notify of replies 6 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Lost compression on: Yesterday at 02:57:01 I was afraid you were going to say that. Thanks Reply Quote Notify of replies 7 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Lost compression on: Yesterday at 02:27:23 Found it and loosened the cable so that the lever is completely down. Still no compression. Motor spends much faster than before, so if the lever is down is the exhaust valve closed or open? The solenoid seems to be functioning. I get a very load click when I hit the starter button, which makes me think the exhaust valve is stuck open. I'll get that manual downloaded. Reply Quote Notify of replies 8 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Lost compression on: Yesterday at 01:28:49 Thanks for the reply. So before I start tearing it down what's the decomp? I'm thinking it has a stuck valve since it has no compression at all but I never heard of a decomp. Reply Quote Notify of replies 9 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Lost compression on: 11/23/12 at 21:55:27 Well I just thought I had problem with backfires. Suddenly lost compression. Bike started fine went one block. Engine suddenly quit and no compression. I'm assuming a head gasket but thought I'd check here before pulling the head. Have done compression check and nada none zero. Seems like I'd get a little even with a blown gasket. Also I'm feeling air around the right had side of the head cover. A valve stuck open maybe? Reply Quote Notify of replies 10 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Running Rich on: 11/21/12 at 03:44:42 Right. And how do i do that? Thanks Reply Quote Notify of replies 11 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Running Rich on: 11/21/12 at 01:14:44 Picked up an 86. Runs good but rich and fouls plugs. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Buddy Reply Quote Notify of replies 12 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Replaced Cap on: 10/01/12 at 02:34:57 It's good permatex silicon rated at 700 degrees but I think the one broken bolt and the stripped one are causing most of the problems. If I can get the helicoil set and get a little torque maybe it will work. Doesn't take much torque. Problem is to really set the coil correctly I'd need to pull the jug. Anyway it will happen sooner or later. Reply Quote Notify of replies 13 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Replaced Cap on: 10/01/12 at 02:20:13 Right. No I removed it ran copper silicone high heat around it. One bolt in the back was broken off and one had a helicoil that came loose. Can't get enough torqure on the back right hand side. Leaks like even worse now. Will continue to mess with it until it stops. Reply Quote Notify of replies 14 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Replaced Cap on: 09/30/12 at 19:41:22 Thanks man. I'm going to go ahead and run some silicone gasket maker around the head cover. Reply Quote Notify of replies 15 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Replaced Cap on: 09/30/12 at 13:22:22 Thanks. That pretty much answers my question. There was no sealer. Sad I was able to get the old plug out (It was very loose) and replace it and used the silicone on it etc. Is there some secret to getting the head cover off completely. I haven't found complete instructions and the bolt that acts as a stud wouldn't allow me enough room to swing the cover out and off. I 'm assuming I don't need to drop the engine. Reply Quote Notify of replies 16 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Re: Replaced Cap on: 09/30/12 at 03:13:29 So does that mean there isn't one? I've got a couple of tripped bolts. Hopefully it won't leak too much. Reply Quote Notify of replies 17 General Category / Rubber Side Down! / Replaced Cap on: 09/30/12 at 01:31:14 So I replace the oil cap which looked like it was definitely leaking but is there no gasket that fits on the cover. Seems like there should be one since I assume oil is spraying on the valves, cam chain etc. Budro" |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/25/12 at 07:47:05 Ive got a pretty good amount of mechanical ability, been in a few engines, only 1 failure & I had help from a machinist tankin that one, but, it landed on my shoulders anyway.,.Ive changed the frame on 2 pickups,. fixed copier, cash registers, just generally been a Fix It kinda guy all my life,, & theres no way I would walk off into the engine on a bike w/o a manual., I have no idea what all was done during the "Leaking cap plug" repair, but to see a cam chain snap such a short time after someone being that close to it makes me suspect some help from the repair done, I suspect the tensioner pushed itself out, lifting the end of the cam out of its bearing, then the head cover just pushed down & tightened up, putting tremendous tension on the chain, This, if I am correct, is the single most brilliant example of "Fixin it broke" we have ever seen on this forum., BUdro, how did you keep the different length head cover bolts in order? Do you have a torque wrench? |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Oldfeller on 11/25/12 at 07:58:04 Justin, please wait for the pictures -- the ball is in Budro's court now. Also, you should not feel any responsibility for what he did to his engine -- he never took your advice on any item that I could see, but instead chose to bull along and by golly he did it his way, with no manual to consult either. So, don't beat him or yourself up, just wait for the pictures. See what he is dealing with before offering anything in advice. BTW, refer back to Budro's first posts -- Justin GAVE him the correct advice FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. Budro never listened or did anything about it. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1348965074 |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/25/12 at 08:33:20 I want to thank you all for being so patient with such a dumb ass as me. By the way I did download the manual before going into the head to find the problem with no compression. Also I consulted the very helpful thread on the leaking oil cap before fixing it I forgot to tell you that this is an 1986 bike. You might consider that a 20 plus year timing chain can definitely break or else they wouldn't be for sale now would they. Justin, thank you for your help. It is greatly appreciated. Just to sort of fill you in, I'm and old feller too. I've worked on everything from deuce and half trucks to blower motors, including a complete rebuild on a CB750F which is considerably more complicated than a thumper. Mr. Oldfeller, I've read other threads you posted on this site for other amateurs such as me. While I'm sure you are far more knowledgeable than most of the rest of the world you might try being a little more respectful to all us dummies. I'll see you guys later. budro |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/25/12 at 10:04:50 Well,, he did get it back together & it did run,, I dont think I woulda been able to do that w/o having asked a lot more questions than he did, If we had known he didnt know to trip that tensioner & relax it,, Hed probably be riding today, heck, thats If my guesswork is right, Dangit, Budro, bummer dude, a detailed report & some pics would be good. If you need a day away to lick your wounds, I certainly understand that. The Grizzly 660 in my shop I took in to clean the tank & carb? Well,, all 5 valves were leaking, 3 had to be replaced, 2 would save,but I went for new, so they would all have the same Meat on them for handling heat, jug honed to look great, but measured about .001 egg shaped, so, its getting punched & a fatter piston. The air filter was there, but had fallen apart. It was sucking dirt in. The valves had never been adjusted, I could see that in the marks where the adjusters strike the valves, a dot, a line & a dot.. One Line,, never changed, just over 350 hours on the thing, &, If you Ever Buy a machine from an individual & they dont have the shop manual & tools or they cant show maintenance records from a hired mechanic, you know its been neglected, & this guy got no manual & no records. Heres how it went, Bought it new. Took it home, son gets on it & Rides the absolute CRAP out of it,They replace tires when it needs them, they add gas, oil looks to have been changed some, but if they said they changed it "Religiously", they go church once every coupla years, videos of Mudding get the boy excited, I find the radiator 100% plugged in places,dirty & inefficient in the best places, mud caked inside the tube that runs from the flat spot in front of the bars, down to the transmission (belts & pulleys!)& then it comes out in back,, flow thru Ventilation, not supposed to be a mud bath,, ( I am not even pulling that cover. If its messed up in there, then when it breaks, someone will fix it, probably me). Front brakes were almost to the metal, rear was almost to the bottom of the "service limit" groove. Fluid brown on front brakes, cycled that crap thru, Yea, Ive hit the wall,, IM doin stuff I need & or Wanna do for a while,, Ohh, almost forgot, the Thermostat was stuck, full open. The rod had cocked sideways & jammed,, never seen one do that before,, probably got hit by a rock rolling along in the antifreeze. When I drained the coolant I got enough garbage that I poured it thru a paint filter,, Old dude who bought it sure got shafted,,needless to say, he got mad at ME.. he thot I was jerking him around, running the $$$ up. Took a while to get him calmed down & get him to understand what it was he bought. They ran it till it started losing some power & they knew it was injured,so, they sold it,,& they put new tires on it & cleaned it up & asked a Premium price for it. He gave about $2,600.00, which would be a little less than the cost of repair if it went to the shop. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/25/12 at 15:48:11 Not much to report Justin. Got the cover off and looks OK except the tensioner blew up. That could have been before or after the chain let go but we'll never know. However these machines are know for several faults the chain tensioner being one of them. I'll let you know how it progresses. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/25/12 at 18:20:56 If the tensioner let go before the chain broke, nothng was pressing on the chain. Others have lost the tensioner & no one has broken a chain. Im going with my hypothesis., |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by verslagen1 on 11/25/12 at 18:31:25 Not a whole lot that can break that chain. What typically happens is the tensioner lets go, the chain whips around threatening to jump a cog. If it gets kinked and tries to go around on the sprocket that way... lights out. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/25/12 at 18:35:03 You read my hypothesis? |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/25/12 at 19:48:14 All depends on the age of the chain and the circumstances. Metal does fatigue although it takes awhile. Anyway it's broke. The piston moves freely so hopefully no damage there. It appears that this is not interference type valves so hopefully no damage at that point. The filter has shavings but the magnet didn't pick up a lot. I'll need to change the oil often for a while. Now it's a matter of putting the chain on which I suppose requires remove the the crankshaft drive gear. It'll be fun. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/25/12 at 20:01:02 Yes, the chain is busted,, next thot,, TRy to remember, did the cam lift up outta the lower bearings on the end away from the chain? |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by verslagen1 on 11/25/12 at 20:55:41 44555A575C5B5553555D5A340 wrote:
It is an interference engine, but let's hope you're lucky. Well are ya punk? |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by HondaLavis on 11/25/12 at 21:05:01 If you really did break your cam chain... then when you pull the head cover off, LOOK AT EVERYTHING. Make sure your valves aren't bent, check out the cam lobes, cam bearings, etc. Broken chains can cause all kinds of havoc, and you won't know what's there until you look. A picture is worth a thousand words and a million credit points to anybody who may be doubting your situation. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/26/12 at 03:40:44 I'll get some pics posted tonight. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Gyrobob on 11/26/12 at 06:11:22 If your motor turned over more than a few revs after the chain broke, your piston and valves are history. You probably cranked it for a while after the chain broke just trying to get it started again. Your plan: Set up time and funding for a complete rebuild. If your bike has a lot of miles on it, (20,000? 40000?) this is probably a good idea in any event. -- New parts. gasket set, seals, rings, piston, valves. --- The piston may only be scraped on top, so if it is dimensionally okay, and can be cleaned up nicely, good for you. --- Possibly cylinder head and cylinder, con rod, and crank are damaged, but hopefully these are salvageable. --- If you had ever considered hopping up the thing, now is the time to get a cam, a carb, etc. --- Shopping around can make a big diff in costs. -- Find a shop that does this kind of work reliably. --- Locally is nice, but shipping it off to someone who really knows how to do this kind of work on this kind of cylinder is often worth the expense. -- If you can do the machine work yourself, marvy. Just make a thousand posts here using the tons of expertise available. -- Your bike being a 1986 model means the rebuild will cost more than the bike is worth. |
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Title: Re: Lost compression Post by Budro on 11/26/12 at 16:22:29 Thanks and that's good advice. Luckily I have two automotive techs living in my house who are just itching to tear into this motorcycle engine and as you say hop it up. Something about making it a 700. I didn't pay much for the bike but you're right it will cost more than it's worth even with free labor. But hey it should be fun. |
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