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Message started by paulchristi on 11/19/12 at 11:12:09

Title: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by paulchristi on 11/19/12 at 11:12:09

Yesterday went out to the bike, key was in on position, battery dead, D'oh! When I removed the battery to charge it, I saw that all cells were dry. I probably last checked the level "sometime in the last six months", and have occasionally topped up the cells, but nothing like this. I don't have the obvious (cracked battery case), so what might cause all your electrolyte to go away?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by Serowbot on 11/19/12 at 11:36:09

Escaped into the electrosphere... :-?...
Wet cell batteries do that... that's why we check them fluid levels...
That's normal,.. nothing wrong... just need to check it more often...
Just add distilled water... in the little holes up top... then charge it a bit...
When it dies,.. get yer'self a gel battery... ;)...

Hey!... yer' in Oro valley... we should meet up sometime... ;)...

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by Charon on 11/19/12 at 19:28:19

When lead-acid batteries are charged, the electrolyte becomes more acidic. When they reach full charge, the charging current begins dissociating (breaking down) the water in the acid. The products are hydrogen and oxygen, and as gasses they escape through the vents on the battery. If you watch the battery the gas bubbles up and looks as if the water is boiling, hence the terminology of "boiling the battery dry." Hot weather makes this worse. The only cure is to add the water back. Trouble is, if the plates are exposed to air and allowed to dry out, they may never recover and the capacity of the battery will be permanently reduced, perhaps to the point of unusability.

Maintenance-free batteries have similar problems. However the plate chemistry is slightly different which reduces water dissociation. The batteries are sealed, so the gases cannot leak out (but they do have overpressure reliefs), and they have a small amount of catalyst which helps the hydrogen and oxygen to recombine into water. Thus no water need be added for the life of the battery, nor can it be. If the battery is severely overcharged the gases escape through the pressure relief, and cannot be replenished.

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by 360k+ on 11/19/12 at 19:36:34

BTW, electrolyte tends to disappear proportional to the strength of the charging current; i.e., higher current will evaporate it sooner. So make sure there isn't something else going on? Namely, you might start the bike and rev it a little while checking the voltage. If the regulator isn't properly regulating then you could be losing the liquid quicker than normal. Also, if your level has fallen below the top of the plates, the battery may have already started sulfating (white power between plates), and you'll need a new one soon.

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/19/12 at 20:00:49

That Italian chick,, dang,, what was her name,, Porate', Porate'

Thats it,, Porate',, sweet little thing,, had a boyfriend, into magic,, he used her in the disappearing girl part of the show,, Dont know what ever happened to poor little Eva Porate'..

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by Charon on 11/19/12 at 20:08:44

To be pedantic and annoying, the water does not evaporate, except in quite high temperatures. The charging current causes the water to dissociate, that is, break down into its component hydrogen and oxygen. These gases are what escapes. The practical effect is that the water disappears. The dissociation is minor until the battery nears full charge, at which time the voltage regulator is supposed to reduce the current to a level at which dissociation slows.

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/19/12 at 20:18:47

I dont mind ya being pedantic, but harpin on what ya know gets old..

& not only that,, ya messed up my FUN, dude!

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by Charon on 11/19/12 at 20:31:05

That's why I threw in "annoying."

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/19/12 at 20:32:17

oh,, right,, dang..

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by Serowbot on 11/19/12 at 21:31:54

After careful study of what Charon said,.. I believe it confirms my original hypothesis...
It escapes into the electrosphere... :-?...

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by thumperclone on 11/19/12 at 22:05:11

what amperage were you charging it at ?
me thinks you "cooked/boiled" the water right outta er..
2 amps is plenty, 6 amps too much for sickle batt"smart"charger is better.

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by Serowbot on 11/19/12 at 22:38:23

If Paul's like me,.. and remembers checking the fluid "sometime in the last 6 months"... that logically means he checked it 2 years ago...
I regularly check my tire pressure... and every time I do,.. it's either really cold or really hot outside... and I'm down to about 12lbs front and 20lbs rear... I think they're called seasons...
... and I swear I check my oil recently... once...
... and these may be the same jeans I had on last week...
It's the quickening...
I'm not worried about it anymore...
The world ends in a month or so, anyway...
I got enough air, oil, and jeans for that...
:-?...

No offense to you, Paul,... I'm just enjoying this thread...
Thinkin' deep thoughts... takin' stock of my life...
...(I may need to wash underwear,.. one load,.. before the calender stops)... (I'm well stocked with Raman noodles,... hope there's boiling water in the everafter)... (I'm sure there will be in mine)...
:-?...

PS... Thump's right,... overcharging will cook off yer' electrolytes... ...into the electrosphere...
Ohhh!... I just invented anti-gravity!... but I lost it...
Had it there for a second though... :-?...

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by 360k+ on 11/20/12 at 06:32:33

557E77647978160 wrote:

In other words... in molecular absorption spectrometry, the absorption cross section [ch963] is expressed in terms of a linestrength, S, and an (area-normalized) lineshape function, [ch934]. The frequency scale in molecular spectroscopy is often in cm[ch8722]1, wherefore the lineshape function is expressed in units of 1/cm[ch8722]1, which can look odd but is strictly correct. Since N is given as a number density in units of 1/cm3, the linestrength is often given in units of cm2cm[ch8722]1/molecule, disassociating itself atomically; thus, the liquid disappears.

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/12 at 06:34:19

If I woulda been standin there I woulda slapped the Scarecrow & Snatched that diploma right back outta his hand,,

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by youzguyz on 11/20/12 at 06:36:09

4543505B1B1711101B220 wrote:

[quote author=557E77647978160 link=1353352329/0#5 date=1353384524]To be pedantic and annoying, the water does not evaporate, except in quite high temperatures. The charging current causes the water to dissociate, that is, break down into its component hydrogen and oxygen. These gases are what escapes. The practical effect is that the water disappears. The dissociation is minor until the battery nears full charge, at which time the voltage regulator is supposed to reduce the current to a level at which dissociation slows.

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by ToesNose on 11/20/12 at 06:38:43

Quote:

I may need to wash underwear...

Mama always said make sure you wear clean skivies for the end of the world ;D

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by Gyrobob on 11/20/12 at 06:53:56

Charon said, ".... The charging current causes the water to dissociate, that is, break down into its component hydrogen and oxygen. These gases are what escapes. ...."

I can verify this with practical experience. I had been working on a Fiat that had a starter problem, and needed a tune up. The battery was pretty new, and had started off fully charged, but during this work session, had been used repeatedly. When I finally got the thing started, it was being charged a lot,... you could hear the alternator singing. While the motor was running, I got out the timing light and was about to check the timing when the top of the battery blew off. The timing light (one of the 110v versions) had gotten too close to the battery that (as Charon would testify) was apparently giving off a lot of hydrogen as a result of the high charging current. I was a lucky boy that day since I was several feet from the battery when it exploded. It made quite a bang, and scattered little drops of acid all over the place.

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/12 at 07:12:18

Wow,,, Very Lucky lad that day.,. I never woulda thot about the light setting it off..

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by Gyrobob on 11/20/12 at 08:20:13

7F6066617C7B4A7A4A72606C27150 wrote:

Wow,,, Very Lucky lad that day.,. I never woulda thot about the light setting it off..

Yes, a very lucky lad.

Hydrogen gas is extremely ignitable,.. and apparently there was some sort of an arc inside that timing light.

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/12 at 08:24:50

Ohh yea,, Ive popped a battery. Running a grinder on the end of the header, fitting a Supertrapp. Sparks flew too close to the vent.

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by Dave on 11/20/12 at 09:03:48

Maybe this will be on thread.....maybe not.

One day my wife came home and started putting these little plastic pieces into the wall sockets that we weren't using by having and electrial appliance plugged into them. They were little white plastic pieces with two prongs that went into the plug slots.....and a round white cap. I asked "What are those for?"....and she told me that "They will save use energy!". I refrained from laughing......but began to tell her that electricity cannot leak out of a wall plug.....and that they weren't going to do anything. She responed that they were to keep the cold air from flowing out of the holes in our not so well insulated old house.........seems I was the one that was uninformed. :o

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by Gyrobob on 11/20/12 at 13:57:43

Technically she has a point. It will, however, take something like 28 years to save enough energy expense to pay for them.

Title: Re: Where did the electrolyte go?
Post by paulchristi on 11/20/12 at 15:04:59

Update...so far so good. Only screwed up a little....my charger has both 12A and 2A currents, I figures bigger is better. A couple of hours later when the battery was bubbling like crazy and pretty dang hot, I learned from the internet that using a 12A current to charge a motorcycle battery is a no-no. Regardless, the battery does now have a charge and starts the bike, but I guess I won't be surprised if I'm replacing the battery in the near future.

Incidentally, what changed in my life was that I used to live on the Oregon Coast where 95% of my rides were less than 15 minutes in temps less than 55 degrees, and would sometimes go weeks without riding due to the rain. Now we live in Arizona, where my nearly daily rides are typically at least 30 minutes in warm temperatures and my weekly mileage has increased significantly. So I understand why I was surprised by my battery suddenly not behaving like it did in the past.

Perhaps the more frequent, longer rides are contributing to overcharging, I'll check it out as soon as I find someone who sells a fuse for my voltmeter. Incidentally, what type of voltage should I be reading with the engine running? 14V?

Thanks everyone!