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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> what's in store for us.... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1352937597 Message started by WebsterMark on 11/14/12 at 15:59:57 |
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Title: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/14/12 at 15:59:57 http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/crisis%20Quebec%20women/7537213/story.html |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Serowbot on 11/14/12 at 16:57:26 That would never happen here,.. .oh, wait,.. my mom waited 5 months for aorta surgery,.. and 4 months for hip replacement, and 6 months for the other hip... Then she nearly died because they double dosed her with blood thinners... .. and she has private insurance plus medicare plus medicare part B,C,D, whatever... |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/14/12 at 17:02:29 how did that happen? I've never waited. My mother in law has procedures, she never waited. In fact, i don't know anyone who went thru what you described. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by 360k+ on 11/14/12 at 19:46:16 Ever had to experience the ER as your your health care "provider"? If you don't have a bonafide employer provided plan, or are a $millionaire+ who can afford your own independent healthcare, YOU WAIT! And when the surgery gets scheduled and completed (assuming you don't die in the waiting room), it costs 4x, and the bill is rarely fully repaid according to statistics. Like most other congressional ideas, it's insanity, that any 6th grader with basic math skills could see thru. But again, we are dealing with congress. Read the big picture... by forcing more people into healthcare insurance, more money gets funneled up to the top income brackets, who own the healthcare stock investments, who contribute to campaigns. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Trippah on 11/14/12 at 20:06:26 Lets get it right, guys. The Elephants want private industry cause the managers and economic backers make most of the money ...the donkeys want the gov to run things cause they can bloat the staffing with politcal appointments. I just want really excellent drs. who look like a million dollars..cause that's what they make. ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Starlifter on 11/14/12 at 20:15:15 The article is ironic, considering that our system is rife with examples of delayed/denied care. And stories of NO care - never forget the many millions with no medical insurance in this country who, if they get seriously ill, simply resign themselves to die. When you have middle class Americans fighting for the right of insurance companies to screw them, we are seriously in trouble as a nation.. An American Disgrace Source: "Indianapolis Ledger" <snip> A vascular surgeon in Indianapolis told me about a man in his fifties who'd had a large abdominal aortic aneurysm. Doctors knew for months that it was in danger of rupturing, but since he wasn't insured, his local private hospital wouldn't fix it. Finally, it indeed began to rupture. Rupture is an often fatal development, but the man -- in pain, with the blood flow to his legs gone -- made it to an emergency room. Then the hospital put him in an ambulance to Indiana University, arguing that the patient's condition was "too complex." My friend got him through, but he's very lucky to be alive. Another friend, an oncologist in Marietta, Ohio, told me about three women in their forties and fifties whom he was treating for advanced cervical cancer. A Pap smear would have caught their cancers far sooner. But since they didn't have insurance, their cancers were recognized only when they caused profuse bleeding.. In Praise of the Canadian Health Care System Source: "Toronto Star" <snip> People hear one anecdote about delayed or denied care and they use that to tar the entire system. I have heard the same anecdotal garbage about the British health system and the Veterans Administration. Yet most of the people who are in those systems would not give them up for a fistful of vouchers. It's like people who refuse to wear seatbelts because they "heard of a guy who died because he wore his/lived because he didn't. Quebec Quality Health Care I had been experiencing a pain in the left side of my chest, not near the surface, but deep under the surface for at least a week. I was growing increasingly nervous about it, scrutinizing my breathing, doing repeated breast self-examinations for a lump, and so on. Today the pain seemed to have spread across my chest so I walked the four miles to the hospital. Many Americans have heard that our health care system is a shambles, that wait-times are outrageous, that very sick people have to wait months for important tests, that the care we receive is substandard, and so on. Canadians know this is rubbish, and that our health care system (whose existence is threatened by the right wing-conservative gov't that just got re-elected) is one of the greatest achievements of the country. To demonstrate this, I want to tell you about my visit to the hospital today. I signed in to the Emergency Triage area at 1:20. Within 10 minutes, I was given a preliminary diagnostic briefing by two triage nurses who took my history, my blood pressure, gave me 3 Advil and checked my heartrate. I was then taken immediately into an examination room in the "Minor Treatment" area, and given a gown by a nurse who explained that she was going to return in a few moments to perform an EKG on me. She did the procedure and gave me a copy of the print-out (I asked for it), telling me that everything seemed fine with my heart. Within 15 minutes, another nurse came in and took several tubes of blood from me and chatted with me about eyebrow waxing. Not longer after, the doctor came in and she and I chatted about was going on with me. She did a breast exam on me and told me that she was ruling out heart problems and that my left breast seemed fine. I asked her what her view is on mammograms and the controversy surrounding them. We chatted about this for several minutes. She told me to put my bra and shirt on, go sit on the chairs in the waiting area, and wait for the results of the bloodwork. About 10 minutes later, she came to tell me that she had changed her mind: she had decided to do a chest x-ray to rule out anything going on underneath. I went for the chest x-ray about 30 minutes later, then I returned to the waiting area. After about 20 minutes, the doctor called my name and motioned for me to come behind the desk area where she was seated. She pulled out a seat and proceeded to show me the computer charts she had on-screen which itemized my hemoglobin count, my BP, and so on, as well as the chest x-rays themselves. She confirmed that nothing like pneumonia was showing up on my lungs, and pointed to the area where cartlidge which she believed tobe inflamed is located. She then confirmed that, yes, those were my boobs on-screen and, extolled the virtues of a good bra. After this, I went into the nearby washroom, got myself dressed, and walked out the automatic doors, feeling so fortunate to live in a country where there is a safety net, where citizens value the well-being of their neighbours, and the dogma of "self-sufficiency" and "personal responsibility" do not drive the distribution of social goods. The clock just inside the doors told me that it was 5:10. I had been there for less than four hours. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Drifter on 11/15/12 at 04:01:59 What country can you go to and get quick..care? |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by srinath on 11/15/12 at 06:27:59 5F69727D6F7E691B0 wrote:
Easy. Inida. You pay @ the door as you enter. Simple, McDonalds has it, why not your doctor/hospital. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Retread on 11/15/12 at 07:42:19 Our healthcare is one of the most inefficient systems ever devised. My wife had to wait four months for hip surgery, everybody I know of that has had to have elective surgery has had to wait months.. It takes at least two weeks to set up a physical with my Doctor! Then you have to get a referal, then wait another month for a appointment with that referal!! I have insurance, but I get pushed aside and billed extra if I go to the hospital for any reason. Meanwhile those who know how to use the system of medicaid go to the front of the line.. Check out the billing dept of a major hospital, think about a 1000 different insurance policies, 10 different government programs, with more private insurance tagged onto them! Now add on tens of thousands of coverage limitations associated with all that insurance! Talk about red tape! Ok, we haven't even addressed the care of our elderly, or should I say lack of care.. First of all Medicare is not taken at most longterm care facilitys, you must spend down all your assets and go on medicaid if you do not have longterm care insurance (Most do not).. And folks if you think a nursing home is a nice place to be, just pick one, go visit for more than one day! Understaffed, undertrained, and in many cases non-caring staff, taking care (NOT), of hundreds of folks who did nothing but grow old, sitting in their own feces, and wishing death would take them! And when death does, they will be penniless, maybe enough to be cremated and have some relative dump your ashes in the local park... The only people that do not have to wait for care are those who have enough money to go to India, or are on medicaid and go directly to the emergency room for a runny nose.. Our system is a joke to the rest of the world, a bad joke, because some of us actually still think we are number one.... >:( |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Pine on 11/15/12 at 12:11:25 4E4F54535C49553D0 wrote:
Easy. Inida. You pay @ the door as you enter. Simple, McDonalds has it, why not your doctor/hospital. Cool. Srinath.[/quote] Romania... however there is a catch.. you have to "tip" everyone ... and its only optional if you want to live. ... and you do it on the spot for each service ( including the person that changes your sheets) .. and you do it as you leave. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WD on 11/15/12 at 16:12:46 Never had a problem with medical care in Canada. I've gotten hurt a few times on trips in British Columbia, always attended to swiftly and courteously. Same when I was stationed in Spain, got better care off base than on. Got food poisoning in Venice Italy, seen right away. My $130K accident stateside would have cost me $3K equivalent in Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland... and that was just the cost for a broken shoulder to be repaired. 10 days post-wreck (they had to rebreak the humerus and all 4 ball fractures, still isn't right 4 years later). >:( Got hit in the face/ear junction at work last year by a flying cold chisel. I sat in the ER for 3 hours with blood running down the side of my face. To have a half-assed batch of stitches put in. Cost the company $4500. Having the stitches out was another $900 and something. Next time I get a major cut, I'm just gluing it shut. Surgical glue is $8 at Walgreens, hydrogen peroxide a buck and a half, a band-aid is what, 25 cents? |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Starlifter on 11/15/12 at 16:30:14 20 years ago my mom was in the hospital for a day. They charged $8.00 for a bandaid...and that was 20 years ago. Outrageous! Yeah, we don't need any universal single payer healthcare...The insurance companies manage our healthcare for us. They know what's best. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Serowbot on 11/15/12 at 18:06:33 Webster is still certain that none of this ever happens... We're all makin' it up... We have the best healthcare in the world... ;D... |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by srinath on 11/15/12 at 18:14:06 In india that is true in a gubbamint hospital. Private hospitals they see anyone taking a tip/bribe, they will get fired. BTW in singapore, a country that has taken somethings to an extreme, there is a law against tipping. Restaurants inside the country dont even say it. Its the law. @ international locations full of tourists, they have signs that say no tipping. Seriously I'd like to implement that in the US. Cool. Srinath. 734A4D46574C51230 wrote:
Easy. Inida. You pay @ the door as you enter. Simple, McDonalds has it, why not your doctor/hospital. Cool. Srinath.[/quote] Romania... however there is a catch.. you have to "tip" everyone ... and its only optional if you want to live. ... and you do it on the spot for each service ( including the person that changes your sheets) .. and you do it as you leave. [/quote] |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/15/12 at 18:38:38 no tipping. Seriously I'd like to implement that in the US. I almost agree,, let the restaurant owners pay them fair wages,, But,, they KNOW crappy service = lousy tip.. Sadly, excellent service is no guarantee of a fair tip.. So,, I guess your idea is worth a shot,, |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Serowbot on 11/15/12 at 21:35:56 Tipping,.. creates an atmosphere of subservience... too much like asskissing... Plus,.. there is the hidden fear of resentment,.. someone spitting in the soup, if you didn't tip well last time... Honest pay for honest work,.. and respect going both ways... ... and why is it,.. that the hardest working people in the food service industry,.. never get tipped?... Ever leave a tip a Jack in the Box?... McDonald's?... I think, it's also France, that bans tipping?... (I read something somewhere... I haven't been in France since I was 9... and I never ate anywhere that would have waiters)... I had a buddy,.. way back,.. that worked his butt off cooking in a hot kitchen for $35 a night,.. while the waitresses made $150 to $200 a night just carrying the food to tables... He and the busboy spilt the change,.. while the waitresses kept the bills... If the food is good,.. I want to thank the chef... Tipping is stupid... PS... I'll never buy a Papa Johns pizza again... That idiot is griping that Obamacare will cost him 5 to 6 million a year,.. or,.. 11 to 13 cents per pizza... he made 47 million last year... and lives in a 10,000sqft mansion with a 22 car garage... If a pizza place comes out, and says,..."We're raising the price of our pizza by .25 cents... to pay for employee healthcare,... and the excess will go to raising wages a bit... I'll buy my pizza from them... forever... One frikken' quarter,.. to make people's lives better... ... and,.. I'll bet, that pizza will taste better, too... Boytcott,... Papa Johns... make him feel it... Restore dignity to people that really work for a living... ;)... |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/16/12 at 05:44:33 That idiot is griping that Obamacare will cost him 5 to 6 million a year,.. or,.. 11 to 13 cents per pizza... he made 47 million last year... and lives in a 10,000sqft mansion with a 22 car garage... If a pizza place comes out, and says,..."We're raising the price of our pizza by .25 cents... to pay for employee healthcare,... and the excess will go to raising wages a bit... I'll buy my pizza from them... forever... One frikken' quarter,.. to make people's lives better... John Schnatter is using his strong political feelings to say and do loudly what other business will do quietly, but what every business will do, at least the long term survivors. He did build it, but is being told by someone who never built anything what he has to do. So he stupidly forgot how this game is played and opened his mouth. Now he’ll be targeted by the children of this nation, like you Sew, who seem utterly unconcern how or even where their next allowance comes from, as long as it comes. Papa John, Applebees and now Hostess are public examples of what’s going to happen often, but as long as the guy keeps his mouth shut and the laid off or reduced hours employees show up for whatever new training center (used to be known as high school) Obama opens and funds from more borrowed money, we’ll kick the can down the road a little bit further…. Is anyone honestly shocked that a business is passing along a cost increase to customers or reducing workforce? Here's the thing; if any of you guys on here were in Papa John's place, you do the exact same thing. 100% of you. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Retread on 11/16/12 at 06:55:03 407275646372655A76657C170 wrote:
Thats not even true, some people are real business owners who feel a responsibility to the community, and the people that work for them. They realize that they DID NOT build that by themselves, and understand how happy employees will work harder and longer. John doesn't realize this, or he is just being a thingy... Talking to a empty chair.. I don't know of ONE business owner who really thinks that HE/SHE built their business alone, if they do, they are pompus arses who do not have a clue how to run a business.. I know that when I owned my small business I wouldn't have even have hired somebody if I couldn't pay top wages and benefits. I want em to stick around, be there when I need em.. Thats good business practice.. Hostess employees have been on strike, reasons being that they have had two pay cuts in the last ten years, and the company wishes to do it again. The CEO hasn't had his pay cut, top management has not had a pay cut, and I'm sure that when the investment firm liquidates, they will make a few million, along with severance for the CEO.. Then we can buy our poisoned Twinkies from China, thats what they really want! |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/16/12 at 10:33:25 I am fortunate to have as my customers the largest food manufacturers in the nation. You would know all my major customers and you eat their food often. I can promise you all of them feel a responsibility to the community. All of the feel responsibility to their employees. All of the donate millions to their local communities. I just saw a grade school this week in Arkansas built and funded by one of these companies. Their level of financial commitment to communities is higher than you could imagine and higher than reported on the books. But, a company is obligated to perform at the highest profitability feasible given the market it’s in to maintain its long term sustainability. Business is competition and failure to adjust to market conditions when your competitor’s adjust, will leave you behind and fail soon afterwards, leaving everyone without work. Every company will have to make the necessary adjustments to account for the fiscal disaster obama is bringing already. You are just flat out kidding yourself if you think it’s possible to get all this great stuff obama is promising you for nothing. It’s already happening and it’s just the beginning. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by srinath on 11/16/12 at 12:17:35 OMG, Webster works for Monsatan. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Retread on 11/16/12 at 13:23:19 I don't know where your getting the impression that we all think we are getting something for nothing? Maybe this is just a GOP mantra, like total disregard of facts and specifics, just rant long enough it becomes true? ACA will not effect me at all, I will continue to pay my way through until medicare, the rates go up every year like clockwork, and I will still have the same crappy coverage.. The only difference is going to be I MIGHT be able to get a cheaper insurance through one of the COOP's being set up as we speak.. But I doubt it... In about ten years from what I have read of the ACA big insurance will be bailing from the system because of cost basis being one of very little profit for them... Then comes socialized medicine... The only fair application of medical care is single payer, thats right socialized medicine.. Everybody pays, everything is covered, from birth to death.. Even the ones on welfare will have money deducted for their healthcare! Then business owners would be off the hook, wouldn't that be a conservative ideal? |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by srinath on 11/16/12 at 13:54:21 No the only proper medical insurance system is ... none .... Pay @ the door as you walk in ... dont like their prices - you can see them on the wall, and move on to the next ... the doctor will get the message and lower their prices ... We do this all the time @ fast food ... Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Retread on 11/16/12 at 14:44:03 2A2B3037382D31590 wrote:
So if you don't have the money for the procedure, you die...Yea thats fair......... :-? |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by srinath on 11/16/12 at 15:18:29 17203137202421450 wrote:
So if you don't have the money for the procedure, you die...Yea thats fair......... :-?[/quote] Well not quite ... You dont have $$$ you go to the govt hospital, its free, you would need to tip people ... however they expect tips based on how you look/situation before having their hand out. You walk in there with a set of Bruno Magli shoes and a nice suit on, you're gonna tip people 1000's ... get dragged there on a stretcher looking like gandhi used to, you get everything free ... Govt hospitals provide decent care, they just dont have creature comforts ... no A/C no frills per se. BTW you do know that if you have the total cash system everything will be a lot cheaper right ? Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Retread on 11/16/12 at 20:46:26 Nope didn't know that.... Common sense dictates that if a doctor/hospital/health related enity really cares for the people its serving, that money/profit is and should not be the main driver.. Don't you think? Shouldn't some things in life NOT be for profit? |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/17/12 at 02:46:17 74435254434742260 wrote:
& what would you get up every morning & go do for free? |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Retread on 11/17/12 at 07:20:04 A living wage, look at the wages doctors, nurses, health professionals make in socialized countries. Plus they do not have to buy malpractice insurance, in many cases housing is furnished, moving expenses, ect.. Just for an example take a look at our gas prices, now take a look at where nationalized oil is in place... For profit is fine, until somebody gets greedy, which is more SOONER than later... |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/17/12 at 13:25:38 yea, great idea Retread. And after that, we could cut our balls off, bow down and just give up all freedom.... Geez, it's embarrassing to think some of you guys actually ride motorcycles..... I sometimes think this is a site for male synchronized divers or something… |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Retread on 11/17/12 at 13:35:46 6D5F58494E5F48775B48513A0 wrote:
Give them what freedom? The freedom to be ripped off, the freedom to be nuts upon by every corporate raider out there? Or the freedom to worry about basic healthcare, where you'll get it, if you'll get it, and what kind of care you'll receive for your BIG bucks? Thats not freedom son, thats just stupid... And I have been riding and building fo a long time, wish I could do more of it, but can't afford to with my insurance costs, always wondering when some cager is going to cream me, then Medical costs can break me............ :D I love it when somebody thinks its macho to be preyed upon by corporations, insurance, and CEO's.. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by srinath on 11/17/12 at 13:43:05 Like the repug's said a few months ago ... They have the freedom to be wealthy, so they are "soon to have" So homeless guy, you're not homeless, you're soon to have leprosy. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/17/12 at 18:28:46 Im waitin on Bammy to address those who have LOST their homes.. "Uhh,, I dunno if you folks know this or not,, BUt you didnt Lose your home all by yourself. Government policy made that happen.".. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/18/12 at 06:17:27 Geez, it's embarrassing to think some of you guys actually ride motorcycles..... I sometimes think this is a site for male synchronized divers or something… Retread; i apologize for that line which was mostly directed at a few others, not you individually. It was over the top. The answer is not expanding the influence over our lives by the federal government which essentially means giving decision making authority to unelected federal bureaucrats. As I mentioned on another post , there is this ongoing complain about crumbling infrastructure etc… My question (still unanswered) has always been show me an example that would lead you to believe Uncle Sam is capable to managing the complexities involved behind 1/6 of the US economy. They can’t even build roads and bridges according to most liberals yet you seem perfectly willing to hand over, literally, your life to them. I don’t get it. Not you per se, but younger people who have their entire life and career in front of them. I don’t get it. Why would you just say “here, I don’t want to be bothered with learning this, with fighting for this, with taking responsibility, you do it for me and in return, I’ll be a nice little citizen and I’ll go where you tell me.” |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by srinath on 11/19/12 at 06:23:05 524D4B4C51566757675F4D410A380 wrote:
Correction JOG ... very small correction ... BUt you didnt Lose your home all by yourself. Government policy - of the Bushies who were eager to be re-elected and didn't want to be the 2 recession president inflating a house bubble via loose and indiscriminate credit - made that happen Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Retread on 11/19/12 at 06:51:34 596B6C7D7A6B7C436F7C650E0 wrote:
I'm not offended, this is a political comment site, you have to keep your big boy panties on tight, and realize we all have a tendency towards mental illness to post here.. I say that withe great apology to the mentally ill out there... Never in all my days of posting on political sites have I heard one person jump up and say "You've changed my mind!" .. I cannot see the wish to be a slave to big insurance and bean counters in hospitals as a "Freedom".. And there are plenty of examples of the federal government doing things right, interstate highway system, sewers, SS, Medicare, military (Although too large), the list is very long.. Without SS and medicare millions would have died in the streets, yet all some see is the abuse.. Any program that helps people is usually abused in some nature, there will always be those who are greedy, or prey on the needy, ect... Human nature sucks.. How is having to pay too much for maintaining ones health (Basic human need) a freedom? How is putting a middle man (Insurance) a freedom? How is worrying about ones health, not being able to afford simple checkups a freedom? Sorry I don't see the corelation.. Why should everything we do be for profit? It sure doesn't smack of freedom... |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Starlifter on 11/19/12 at 19:04:39 "How is having to pay too much for maintaining ones health (Basic human need) a freedom? How is putting a middle man (Insurance) a freedom? How is worrying about ones health, not being able to afford simple checkups a freedom? Sorry I don't see the corelation.. Why should everything we do be for profit? It sure doesn't smack of freedom"... You just can't reason with people who lack the ability to think reasonably. When you have middle class Americans fighting for the right of millionaires to pay a lower tax rate than they do, coming at the expense of their children's education. And when you have middle class Americans fighting for the right to have insurance companies decide their life and death medical needs based on their profit margins. You have to ask yourself; what type of society do these people want to live in? Lord of the Flies? |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/19/12 at 19:56:34 No knowledge of history, only a willingness to be led down the path weve been on for decades. America is going your way AND into a pit,, & whats the answer? MORE! |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/20/12 at 04:18:54 How is having to pay too much for maintaining ones health (Basic human need) a freedom? How is putting a middle man (Insurance) a freedom? How is worrying about ones health, not being able to afford simple checkups a freedom? Sorry I don't see the corelation.. Why should everything we do be for profit? It sure doesn't smack of freedom... The answer to your question why is profit is important is too simply look around you. The United States of America for the past 200 years has been the culture with the most individual freedoms available to their citizens. Why is it the US took hold and literally zoomed past the rest of the world in innovation and technology? We have no more or less natural resources than the rest of the world. The US economy quite literally has ruled the world for the past 100 years of so. The GDP of the US dwarfs every other nation. I would include China in this as China’s wealth is so clustered in government. Their wealth does not make it down to citizens because of their lack of individual freedom. And it’s been the presence of this individual freedom over our history that have allowed people to work and earn what their talents and drive allow them to. Communes and ‘Walden Pond’ communities always, always fail. Communism fails, always. A drive for profit maximizes productivity and the result is an abundance of goods and services. Take that profit incentive away, and the quality and quantity of those goods and services drops off. Why did USSR fail? Why was there such poverty? Lack of individual freedom tramped down the desire to work hard which resulted in no growth or innovation. In the end, it was money that ended the cold war. With no private growth, no funds existed for their leaders to match innovation. I know it’s not popular to tout the value of profit. I know it’s doesn’t leave you with a warm, fuzzy feeling. Instead, it seems to leave people today with bitterness and envy. All I can say is removing the incentive for the people who dream big carries consequences that are unimaginable. It’s not perfect and human nature being what it is, there are those who take advantage of others, but capitalism has delivered the highest standard of living this planet has ever seen. I for one will take the downsides in stride. I would not change places with anyone, I’m blessed to be in the US and I want my kids and grand kids to have the same opportunities. Sorry for the rant, but I can't see biting the hand that has fed you all these years. Anyone arguing that capitalism has not provided the world the opportunity to be a better place is a fool. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Paraquat on 11/20/12 at 06:09:47 I'll agree with the upsides of living with a roof over my head and clean-ish water to drink. (My water commissioner sent a letter saying the quantity of lead is greater than recommended safe limits so they advise filtering drinking water, oh and here's your bill) But what if the powers get too great and start setting up road blocks to hinder the natural evolution of capitalism? That's where I believe the greed takes over. It's no longer a competition. We've grown stagnant because there is no competition. It's not longer about amassing profit but about slowing down the next guy with legal regulations and other hindrances. --Steve |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/12 at 06:51:23 You said a mouthful there, steve |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Retread on 11/20/12 at 07:05:20 625057464150477854475E350 wrote:
Capitalism alone is just as bad as communism. You can sit and rave about the virtues of capitalism, but in the end you have a broken system where the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer into serfdom.. In the late twenties we saw our top heavy country fall over, lack of regulation, gambling in markets, and good old capitialist greed took us over the edge.. Socialism alone is not good either, you sooner or later become stagnent.. A balance of capitalism and socialism brings a good economy, a happy people, and better standard of life.. At this time I am trying to find another part A-B-C-D-F-G-H ------Z insurance suppliment for the wife.. Hers goes up every year and we are getting tired of the ripping sound.. So I go online and start the search, within two days I narrow it down to fifteen, ALL of them have the same age based pricing, ALL of them in the same price range as she is paying now!!!!! Thats freedom??? Her insurance just paid a hospital almost $600 for a simple blood test! I pay $7200 a year for a lousy PPO, AND the company I worked for 30%, so we pay $9360 a year! I go to the doctor once every two years for my checkup, blood work, ect, who is getting rich? Not the doctor, not I, big INSURANCE is... And believe me when I say when I fail to a certain point, I will NOT hand over my life savings to some nursing home, I have a 9mm to take care of that problem.. This is freedom? Now you can preach the virtues of capitalism all you want, but when a population grows to a certain point the only fair application of healthcare is a socialized system.. What we have now is breaking this nation, its people, and not providing care to the people who need it most... Profit and capitalism is fine as long as both are attained with responsibility and fairness to the people who worked with you along the way. There are plenty of well heeled people out there giving back to this nation and humanity, but for those few there are many more feeding off the bottom of the pond.. Example: Walmart, CEO makes 18 million a year, Walton family worth 59 Billion dollars, average workers wage $9 an hour, no benefits.. Example: Hostess, CEO's have had three wage increases in six years, from 750K to 2.6 Million, top execs wage increases of 70-100% in that same time. Workers wages cut from 48K to 34K, then company blame workers.. These two examples are just a tip of a giant iceberg, the population has become a nation of petty jealous bottom wage earners. Everybody in this nation thinks they can be a billionare, when in fact the chances of that happening is liking to being hit by flying space junk twice in one day in your living room... No one just wants the simple things in life, a home, a garage, food, and of course a bike to work on.. 8-) |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Starlifter on 11/20/12 at 20:25:05 Part 1 of 2 The Parable of the Water Tank In 1897, Edward Bellamy published The Parable of the Water Tank, one of the most prophetic short stories of its time. This satirical assault on the perceived evils of capitalism exposes the devastating impact of corporate greed and attacks the dominant corporate miserliness which enslaves and immobilizes a people. Bellamy’s visionary onslaught came before the Great Depression, before the monopolization of industries, and before any real understanding of corporate power. Today, as globalization widens the chasm between excess and poverty, Bellamy’s stirring words ring through as a timeless and universal message to the world. By Edward Bellamy (Originally published in the book Equality in 1897) There was once a very dry land, called Root, where the lives of all the people were daily focused on their need to collect water. In Root, there were no lakes or rivers, but there were widely scattered oases, where stands of palm trees grew, surrounded by grass and flowers. In some of these oases there were springs where cool, fresh water would flow onto the surface, and collect into shallow ponds. Each day, the people of Root would walk to the nearest spring, often miles away, to collect the water that they would need for the day's drink, and cooking, and washing. Some days, the flow of water in the springs was low, and the people who came to collect water were many, so that some who walked to the spring had to return home with only a few sips for their spouses and children and their elderly parents. Once, a man of Root went to an oasis to collect his daily water, but he found that day that no water poured forth from the spring. In desperate need, he considered that, since water usually flowed at this place, that it must come from a source under the ground. With this thought in mind, he took a shovel, and began to dig. After hours passed in his labors, he eventually reached an underground river, which had been the source of the spring. He lowered his bucket into the river that he had discovered, and drank deeply. Many other people had come that day to the oasis, and most had returned home empty-handed. Some were still present when the digger reached water, and they ran over in delight, and attempted to fill their buckets. The man who had dug the well was angered, and beat them off with his shovel. “I have water because I alone dug this well!” he shouted. “Do you think that you can just come over and take what I have produced?” One in the crowd called back: “We are poor and have little, but we must have water, or we will die. I have two pennies only, but I will give these to you for one bucket of water.” The man who had dug the well agreed, and offered the same exchange to all others. Those who had two pennies paid, and filled their buckets. Those who had no pennies returned home with their buckets empty. The man who had dug the well realized that owning it set him apart from all the other people of Root. To maintain his distinction, he built walls around the well to keep all others out, so that they could get water from it only if they paid him the two pennies. And this man became rich from the pennies he collected, and he became known as the capitalist. Other men of Root soon heard what had happened at this oasis, and were inspired by the good fortune of the capitalist. They set out to each of the other oases, where the people of Root who had no pennies went for water. They each dug wells, and diverted the underground rivers so that water no longer flowed into the public springs. They built fences around their wells, so that none could take water without their permission, and they gave water only to those who would pay them. And they all became known as capitalists. But the people of Root were thirsty and poor, and soon few had pennies, and they begged the capitalists to give them water. But the capitalists said: “We cannot do that, because then we would become as poor as you are, and we would perish with you. But if you will be our servants, we will provide you with water.” And so it happened that the people of Root became the servants of the capitalists. The capitalists ordered their servants into teams with supervisors and managers. Some they put at the wells to dip, and others they made to build water wheels, and some to search for new springs. Some of the people were hired to build a tank in the center of town to hold the water, and this tank was called the Market. And the capitalists said to the people: “For every bucket of water that you take from our wells and bring to us, and pour into the Market, we will pay you a penny. You may then buy water from the tank, for you and your families to drink and cook and wash, for two pennies a bucket. The difference shall be our profit. If it were not for this profit we would not do this for you, and you would all perish.” The people of Root were happy that the capitalists had solved the perennial shortage of water, and glad for the work by which they earned the money to buy it. They diligently brought water to the tank every day, and for every bucket they brought, the capitalists paid them a penny. But for every bucket of water that the capitalists drew from the market to give to the people, the people gave the capitalists two pennies. After many days, the Market overflowed, as for every bucket they poured in, they received only enough to buy half a bucket. Because of the excess that was left to every bucket, the Market overflowed. The people were many and the capitalists were few, and could drink no more than the others. And when the capitalists saw the Market overflow, they told the people to bring no more water until the Market was empty. But when the people could no longer earn pennies from the capitalists for the buckets of water they brought, they could not buy water from the Market. And when the capitalists saw that they had no more profit, because no man bought water from them, they were troubled. They decided that they had to advertise, and sent forth men to cry: “If any thirst, let him come to the Market and buy water from us.” But the people answered: “How can we buy unless you hire us, so that we may earn money? Hire us, as before, and we will buy water, because we are thirsty, and you will have no need to advertise.” The capitalists replied: “Shall we hire you to bring water, when the Market is already overflowing? First you have to buy the water, and when the tank is empty, then we will hire you again.” And so the people did not work, and because they did not work, they could not buy, and minstrels reported abroad that Root was in crisis. The people thirsted as never before, because they could not collect water at the oases, as their fathers had done. The capitalists had taken all the springs, and the wells, and the water-wheels, and the buckets, so that no man could get water except from the Market. The people begged the capitalists: “The tank is overflowing! Please give us water, so that we don't die!” But the capitalists answered: “The water is ours. If you want it, you have to buy it.” And they confirmed this with an oath to each other, saying “business is business.” But the capitalists were worried, because they sold so little water. They said: “Our profits have stopped our profits. Because of the profits we've made, we can't make any more profits! How is it that our profits have become unprofitable, and our gains now make us poor? We must send for the soothsayers to interpret this to us.” And the soothsayers had several explanations. One blamed it on overproduction, another on the failure of the people of Root to save their pay, and yet another on lack of confidence. When the capitalists sent the soothsayers to the people, the soothsayers told them that now they must thirst, because there was too much water. But the people became angry, and chased the soothsayers away with stones, and cried out: “Do you mock us? Does plenty bring famine? Does nothing come of much?” When the capitalists saw this anger, they were afraid that the people might storm the water tank. So they sent their holy men, who were false priests, to calm the crowd. The false priests told the people that their thirst was an affliction from God to test their souls, that they should bear it in patience and not trouble the capitalists. Then they proved the capitalists' generosity by going to the Market, and wetting their fingertips in the overflow, and scattering the drops upon the people who thronged the tank. The drops of water were called Charity, and they were bitter. But the crowd raged even more than before. Since both the soothsayers and the false priests had failed to calm the people of Root, the capitalists next called upon all who had skill in war. “If you will guard our tanks, then we will pay you money, so that you may buy water for yourselves and your families,” the capitalists told them. And the men of war were persuaded by their thirst, and took their swords into their hands, and struck down the people who thronged to the tank. In the following days, the capitalists made fountains and fish ponds and flower gardens, and they bathed in the water with their wives and children, and wasted the water for their pleasure. When the Market was empty, they proclaimed: “The crisis is ended!” They hired the people again to bring water from the wells to the Market, and paid them as before a penny for every bucket. But for every bucket that was taken from the tank, the capitalists received two pennies. And so, after a time, the Market once again overflowed, and once again the word was spread that there was a crisis. Time and again, the tank overflowed, and the people of Root thirsted. And when, after suffering their agony, the Market was empty, the people of Root could once again buy the water they needed. And the recurrent overflowing and emptying of the water tank was called the Cycles of the Market. After many Cycles of the Market, there arose in the land certain men who were called agitators, because they stirred up the people. And the agitators told the people that they should associate, and then they would have no need to be servants of the capitalists, and would no longer thirst. The agitators asked the people: “Why can you not buy water from the Market? Because you have no money. Why do you have no money? Because for every bucket you put into the Market you receive one penny, but for every bucket you take from the Market you must pay two pennies, so that the capitalist must have his profit. So the tank must overflow, being filled by your lack, and made to abound out of your emptiness. Do you not see, that the harder you work, and the more diligently you bring the water, the worse off you will be, and not the better? And that this is so because of the system of profit, which will keep the people of Root poor forever?” |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Starlifter on 11/20/12 at 20:26:31 Part 2 of 2 The agitators told this story at every opportunity, wherever they could, to whomever would listen. At last there were people who responded to them: “You are right. It is because of capitalists and their profits that we cannot receive the fruit of our labor. The more we toil to fill the Market the sooner it overflows, and we receive nothing because there is too much. But what can we do to end the cycles of the Market?” And the agitators replied: “What do the capitalists do for you, that you should give them profits from your labor? You collect the water and transport it, but from the capitalists you receive only a little of the water you have brought. Here is how to free yourselves from bondage; do for yourselves what is done by the capitalists: namely, the ordering of your labor and the marshalling of your bands, and the dividing of your tasks. Organize yourselves! Set your production goals to the meet the needs of all the people of Root, but not with an eye to profit. Assign to every worker a job to which he is suited, and that pleases him. When he tires of that job, let him find another way to help the production. And, as each person produces more than he can use, and the products of each worker’s labors are multiplied by the cooperation of others, let each man take from the Market all that he needs. Then you will have no need at all for the capitalists, and will not yield them profits. Then you shall share as brothers all the fruit of your labor, so the tank shall never Overflow until each man is full. And afterward, with the overflow you shall make pleasant fishponds and fountains to delight yourselves, just as the capitalists did; but these shall be for the pleasure of all.” And the people of Root cried out with one voice: “Equality, brotherhood and freedom, forever!” The capitalists heard the shouting, and what the people said. And the soothsayers heard it too, as did the false priests and the men of war. And they trembled, and said to one another: “It is the end of us!” And the people did the things the agitators had told them to do. Soon there was no longer any thirst in the land, and no one hungered, or was naked, or cold, or suffered any manner of want. And every man called his fellow “my brother,” and every woman called her companion “my sister,” for they were all to each other as brothers and sisters who live together in unity. And Root enjoyed the blessings of prosperity and peace forever after. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Starlifter on 11/20/12 at 21:10:25 Just a few years ago, a powerful ideology - the belief in free and unfettered markets - brought the world to the brink of ruin. Even in its hey-day, from the early 1980s until 2007, US-style deregulated capitalism brought greater material well-being only to the very richest in the richest country of the world. Indeed, over the course of this ideology's 30-year ascendance, most Americans saw their incomes decline or stagnate year after year. Moreover, output growth in the United States was not economically sustainable. With so much of US national income going to so few, growth could continue only through consumption financed by a mounting pile of debt. <snip> Every time one starts to feel generous and forgiving towards the other side, the depraved and cruel people in the world do something to stir up the anger and the cycle continues. At least that’s the way it feels. In 2008 many people felt optimistic about the future because we elected the ‘anti-Bush’ and it looked as though we were going to move in a smarter and more compassionate direction as a country. That was followed immediately by the people who supported the illegal war, deregulation and deficit exploding tax cuts that put the country on the road to depression, yelling and screaming, throwing things at the ill and blaming everyone but themselves for the problems they created. Now the country has moved in a more progressive direction once again, followed immediately by the worst of us, let’s call them Teabaggers for the time being, defending the indefensible. Papa John’s pizza, owned by the obscenely rich, greedy and ostentatious John Schnatter who has a turntable for his limousines, a castle-like mansion, his own golf course and a moat- like structure surrounding his castle. According to a Forbes study, Schnatter could supply health care to his employees by adding a nickel to the cost of his pizzas and not have to cut back at all on his King Herod life style. He refuses. He’s not alone by any means. The CEO of Wal-Mart, Michael Duke, makes more in an hour than many of his employees make in a year. Those employees are paid such low wages that taxpayers are forced to help feed them and pay for their health care. The list goes on and on. This should be a cause for outrage as it is not only morally reprehensible, but moronically self-destructive. Yet these Teabaggers defend the practice with the zeal and self-righteousness usually reserved for religious fanatics. Teabaggers, or more accurately their ideological forebears, have always been with us. And they have always been an anchor on society. Freeing the slaves was followed quickly by the formation of the KKK and Jim Crow laws. (Yes, the degrees are different, but the thought processes behind the deeds are the same.) The Renaissance kicked the already in progress Inquisition into high gear. Martin Luther King preached peace and fairness and was killed for his efforts. There have always been people willing to champion sadistic and ludicrous causes, the monikers assigned to these people may change with the times, but the desire to punish others, even if it means making things worse for themselves, remains a constant. And while it may be true that many of these people may not be technically stupid in the conventional sense of the word, their actions and words are identical to those with less brain power and the same ideals. It’s possible that some of the people suppressing the vote in the latest election were not bigots, but outside of their immediate circle of family and friends, who cares? Same results, no matter what their motives. The same goes for those now espousing policies that keep millions of working Americans in poverty. Are they stupid or evil ideologues? Again, who cares? The burden of proof should not be, and really cannot be, on the observer to ferret out what’s in the heart or head of a stranger. Whether one advocates destructive policies because of not understanding what is truly at issue, or because one’s beliefs and ideology prevent that understanding, is irrelevant. Practically, the results are the same. Right now the four hundred richest people in the US control as much wealth as the bottom one hundred and fifty million. On average, each person in that top group has as much wealth as one hundred million, five hundred thousand people in the bottom 50% of the country’s economy. In 1960 the average CEO made as much as forty people in his employ. Now, depending on the source used, the average CEO makes up to four hundred times those in his or her employ. Add to that 92% of the wealth from our current recovery has gone to 1% of the population. As the richest have taken more and more of the country’s wealth, the middle class is continuing to shrink. Forty years ago one blue collar job could support a family of five, have two cars, health care, a yearly vacation and a pension that allowed for a retirement at sixty-five. That is now hard to accomplish with two incomes. The trend is obvious and it doesn’t bode well for the country. No one looks at a third-world country with a handful of obscenely wealthy people and millions of poor with no middle class and says, “Wow, they are doing great. Our county should emulate their success.” Millions of people within our borders defending and supporting policies that push our country toward a third-world country life-style, is far more dangerous than a few score fanatics thousands of miles away. One Teabagger on a Facebook thread about Michael Duke’s salary said, “So what. Nothing wrong with that. They should get better jobs…Go Occupy something.” One on the Papa John’s page suggested posting pictures of those fired ‘so we could laugh at them.’ The issue isn’t with one or two maggots, it’s about millions who feel helping fellow Americans, even an iota, is now somehow un-American. They have taken the ‘us versus them’ to an extreme and it needs to stop. All over the US Teabaggers are backing billionaires over workers, no matter how outrageous the take is for the billionaires or how insignificant the dent is to their incomes, when even the smallest concession would mean the difference between living in a small apartment or living in a vehicle. They aren’t just being bad human beings with no compassion, they are also being bad citizens of a country they give constant lip service to loving - every chance they get. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/20/12 at 21:15:51 Until people stop allowing crony capitalism to be identified as free market capitalism, theyll never understand the role of the free market. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Midnightrider on 11/20/12 at 21:15:52 615354454253447B57445D360 wrote:
Thge goverment isnt building the roads anymore, its private contractors. You should know that. The goverment is just paying the bill for substandard workmanship never completed on time. When the State built the roads it was better work and completed on time!. Had you rather have Blackwater and Haliburton defending you or the US Goverment? Some people working for our goverment actually care about this country. Its a well known fact that the capitalistic corporations and their senior officers try to sh!t the goverment and the country out of everything they can. Pubs couldnt find someone to run for president without secret foreign offshore accounts who cheated on his taxes. Then the two faced basturd had the nerve to call me a moocher. Thats pathetic!!!!! Now the Sons Of Bitchis have sh!t me out of my twinkies and blaming it on the unions. I'm really pissed! |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Midnightrider on 11/20/12 at 21:27:06 I saw a clip the other day, one of Sam Waltons lardass dughters was talking about how sorry poor people are. I gues she's an expert, she has millions of poor people working for her.She got caught cheating and paying other students to write her papers for her in college. The college finally took away her diploma. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Midnightrider on 11/20/12 at 22:28:11 When I went to work for the company that booted me out and stole my retirement, back in the 70's I admred, respected and was proud to work for these people in upper management. It was one of the 10 largest companies in the world. Our management knew tobacco was on the way out so they began buying food companies, KFC, Del Monte, shipping and transport companies, snack companies, liquor and wine etc. These were extremely intelligent men who looked after their workers and were in it for the long run. The company contributed many many millions to the local town, schools, Wake Forest Univ., parks, airport and on and on. I might be doing my job and look up and there would be a VP watching me, he would grab my hand, shake it and tell me he appreciated the job I was doing for him and the company. I was proud to be associated with a company that had top execs that appreciated me. If an employee died someone in upper management would show up with a wreath of flowers at the funeral and a check for $60,000 for the family and there were over 18,000 employees just in Winston Salem the 70's.Its sad those days are over, if treated right the American workers are the best workers in the world. When we supposedly bought out Nabisco their management took over, never will understand why but everything started changing little by little until it is now run by greedy SOB's that arent gonna be there over 5 years and they're gonna leave with 100's of millions, stock options and a golden parachute. Everyone knows tobacco profits are declining so they rob the employees to get what they want. Thats where my retirement went. Its not just me its millions and millions more out there like me. Web how can you ask us to trust private industry? |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/21/12 at 05:32:57 Web how can you ask us to trust private industry? It's very simple; government is worse. The kind of government controls you are wishing for has been tried before with horrible results. There is zero competition to combat power happy unelected government worker bees. Try building a house and learn all about wetlands…. Couple that with a media in bed with one party, and you'll have no chance of getting them out. You think money corrupts? Power corrupts even more. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. Human nature is what it is and crooks reside in industry and politics. Sounds like you got a raw deal, but labeling the system as a whole is not correct. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/21/12 at 05:56:43 Water tank: written on a computer created and provide to him at a low cost via capitalism. Cut and pasted by a man educated at schools funded from tax revenues collected from business revenues which were CREATED via capitalism. All this done in a home built by tradesmen pursing income via capitalism so as to pursue the lifestyle they desire. Perhaps a motorcycle ride was taken after making this post on a bike built thousands of miles away by a company engaged in capitalism. That company’s very existence made possible by a nation dedicated to individual freedom and a capitalistic society. There is a gigantic flaw in the water tank story which is why liberals and semi-socialist are easily fooled into believe it is somehow prophetic when in fact is nothing of the sort. Can you spot it? |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/21/12 at 07:04:35 Companies get dangerous when theyre so big they can crap on people far enough away from where the owners live the crapped on people never see the crapping people in town. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Retread on 11/21/12 at 07:38:49 Government bad... Really? In my working lifetime that spans from age fourteen to age fifty seven I had three good bosses, thats right just three.. I've had bosses that were incompetent, I've had bosses that were just plain mean, I've had bosses that turned their noses up at you, and I've had bosses that refused to pay you.. When I was a young man I did go from job to job a little, trying to find a good paying job in an area that you like is always a challange, but after the service I got married and had to settle down.. The only government job I had was the service, pay was always on time, food was Ok, and benefits were good, however job was a tad dangerous, and pay was low.. I knew many guys that got out and went straight into nice government jobs, quite few retired from those same jobs, making a tidy sum. I went to work for a major oil comapny. Stock prices went nuts, I got lucky, I had bought company stock since I had started, and thought it would never bring fruit.. Finally after many years with company I had enough to say goodbye.. Luck happens, but I recognize that I most likely would still be slaving away out there if not for it.. My old friends are retired from their government jobs, and doing well, it wasn't luck that allowed that, it was the government.. I know many people who depend on SS to live, the check is always there, medicare takes some of the worry from their lives.. The government never shrinks, unless there is armed rebellion, or the country falls, a government is only a service to the people (Supposed to be at least).. Right now there are 27 lobbiests for every congressman and woman in Washington, but very few of those represent the people.. So who really holds the power? Web would rather be a slave to a corporation, or a rich man, myself I would rather not be a slave to any man, but a politician I can still vote out of power if he crosses me or the American people.. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Midnightrider on 11/21/12 at 11:48:18 5E6C6B7A7D6C7B44687B62090 wrote:
The almost exact same thing happened to my Dad. There's no laws governing what upper management can do to a company and its employees. Unions dont work anymore because no matter what happens to the company upper management walks away set up for the rest of their lives. There's laws saying I will get my check that I earned from Uncle Sam every month. As long as we can keep dickheads like Ryan out of power I'll be OK aqnd I'll keep trusting the goverment over private industry. Yes I'm one of Romney's moochers because private corp's like his stole what I was promised. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/21/12 at 15:53:06 There's no laws governing what upper management can do to a company and its employees. oh yea, tell that to the people in prison for doing just that. ... Ask Conrad Black just to name one. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/21/12 at 15:54:23 As long as we can keep dickheads like Ryan out of power I'll be OK till there's no money left and everyone loses. Of course that's in the future and you'll be gone by then, but hey, who cares..... You got yours. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Starlifter on 11/21/12 at 19:00:24 "My old friends are retired from their government jobs, and doing well, it wasn't luck that allowed that, it was the government." Yes the government. I worked for the United States Government for 43 years and am now retired and living very comfortably (as is Ms.Starlifter who also has a government pension). We don't get SS as we never paid into it, but we don't need it as we are very well off including excellent health care plans....and don't give me that crap about govt. workers sitting on their asses and getting paid for it. I worked my tushy off. Six and seven day weeks, 16 hours mandatory overtime shifts 2 or 3 days a week. After 9/11 I worked seven days a week for months, sometimes doing four 16 hour shifts a week. Private industry, the private sector, used to take care of their employees. You started working for them at a young age and devoted your entire working life to them. You gave them your loyalty and hard work...an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. And in return they took care of their employees. A good living wage, job security, paid vacations, sick days, health care, Christmas bonuses, and in the end a good pension for the rest of their lives. A man could work his job and it would support a wife and several children. A new care every five or six years. A fishing boat, maybe even a cottage on a lake up north. Those days are over. The so called "Reagan revolution" began the era of union busting, pay cuts, 39 hour work weeks so benefits need not be given, golden parachutes for CEO's, million dollar bonuses for CEO's The name of the game is GREED GREED GREED! profit is the bottom line, money is God, and sh!t on everyone else, especially the people working for them. Capitalism sucks the very life out of the workers in the mines and mills while the new robber barons laugh all the way to the bank. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Starlifter on 11/21/12 at 19:46:43 Macy’s CEO to American People: Drop Dead As a Thanksgiving treat, Terry Lundgren wants to gut Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. Macy’s is a powerful symbol of Thanksgiving, with its festive parade and freakishly large floats. But Macy’s CEO Terry Lundgren is part of a group of greedy, unpatriotic CEOs who would like to seize this moment of American hardship and tear the rug out from under hard-working families. Moms, dads, grandparents, kids—he’d like to take a little something from each of you. Especially if you're poor: he’d really like to get into your purses. Lundgren and a coalition of other big-time CEOs are lobbying Congress to cut Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security benefits so that they can enjoy tax breaks. Obviously, Lundgren did not take Econ 101, which would have demonstrated to him that reaching into the pockets of people will leave them without enough dollars to buy your products. It’s very simple, Mr. Lundgren. Your job and your stores are supported by the spending power of the American consumer. Robbing that consumer by hacking away at hard-earned retirements and healthcare is not going to help your bottom line. http://www.alternet.org/economy/macys-ceo-american-people-drop-dead ******************************************************************* These guys are blinded by greed. The greed of some prominent americans is just disgustingly pathetic. well they can't take it with them which a small consolation. the fact that they must die one day is a large consolation. may they choke on their greedy spittle. Capitalism is a system intended to move the wealth and resources of a nation from the many to the few -- and it does that quite successfully. FDR's New Deal slowed it down a bit by regulating capitalism -- Un-regulated capitalism is merely organized crime!! Oh, and hey, has anyone else ever noticed how many socialistic systems capitalists rely upon to maintain their capitalistic power? You know, military, roads, libraries, public schools, police forces, etc. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/21/12 at 20:12:13 I* wish youd just describe the society you want, |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/21/12 at 20:23:41 worked for the United States Government for 43 years and am now retired and living very comfortably So my capitalist generated salary is paying for you and your wife to sit around bad-mouthing your country? In other words, your lifestyle is brought to you courtesy of WebsterMark? Your welcome Star. I’ve got no problem helping those less fortunate… |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Starlifter on 11/21/12 at 21:58:46 Yep, just keep those taxes coming buddy. I think I'll light up a big fat $12.00 cigar in your honor. ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/21/12 at 22:00:52 756A6C6B7671407040786A662D1F0 wrote:
Thats for you Lifter,, |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by Starlifter on 11/21/12 at 22:25:29 "I* wish youd just describe the society you want." ...sigh, A society where every working person receives a living wage. Where every citizen has the basic right to health care. Where science and education are honored and not scoffed at. Where the religiously insane do not dictate policy. Where elections are honest above board and transparent. Where war and all the horrors of war do not suck the blood and treasure from our coffers to enrich the military industrial complex. Where people are judged by the content of their character and not their race or the size of their bank account. A society that does not reward greed with the blood sweat and tears of the working class. Where no one needs to go hungry. Where hate radio and FOX news are laughed out of existence. Where people are kind and courteous. Where the elderly are treated with respect and dignity. ...and that's just for starters. The list could go on all night, but it's late here in the east and I'm tired. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by WebsterMark on 11/22/12 at 04:59:07 Yep, just keep those taxes coming buddy. I think I'll light up a big fat $12.00 cigar in your honor you're welcome boy. |
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Title: Re: what's in store for us.... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/22/12 at 06:26:36 YOu described utopia, I was asking, explain the mechanisms you believe society needs to achieve such a fine place. I agree with your goals, I already have a way to achieve a lot of it, ( Or, at least I Think I do) BUt, I want you to explain the laws & societal demands, one on another, responsibilities, rights, freedoms, I am a Libertarian & care for no one, according to many here, So, lets see how others would acieve a decent society, explain the rihts & freedoms & responsibilities, I have, |
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