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Message started by Oldfeller on 11/05/12 at 15:57:44

Title: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/12 at 15:57:44

Petcock Paranoia

We use this term all the time here on the list, and I am really beginning to think it means different things to different people.

I will give you a real world but it didn't really actually happened quite this way situation and you explain your definition of "petcock paranoia" in light of this actual real world situation.

==============

V is running happily down a six lane expressway on his Savage with a 3/4 full tank of gas and he is actually busy passing a car when he gets the signal from his vac petcock that it is not going to give him enough gas to complete that maneuver safely, so he falls back and attempts to get into Prime while angling over behind that car to move over towards the right hand lane to get off the road if he has to.

Traffic cuts him off however and he successfully makes it into Prime but the gas isn't flowing yet and indeed he sputters on for a bit before he loses all power in a full vac petcock shut off scenario.

Cars are screeching their brakes and blowing their horns at him, all the way from lane to lane but he makes it safely over to the shoulder of the road and is idling his way down to a stop when in the right hand lane a guy in a big Ford pickup who is four cars back decides he doesn't want to rear end into the guy who is third back who just slammed on his brakes because he wasn't paying attention and just woke up to the fact that he needed to slow down.

Mr. Ford does him an instantaneous "dive into the ditch" right hand pass maneuver "off the road onto the shoulder" to avoiding rear ending the line of cars up in front of him. However he does not see V who is idling down to a stop on the shoulder up in front of him until he sees him popping up over his grill.

V gets blasted forward like a hockey puck at goalie time ....

By your definition of the term Petcock Paranoia -- who should be paranoid, who actually IS paranoid and are any of these folks justified in their paranoia?

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/12 at 16:35:04

Paranoia, according to Webster ( No, not the guy with the big ears & glasses & goofy grin) is fear, not based in reason. Considering the importance of the petcock & its apparent built in suicidal nature, not trusting it to "stand & deliver" ( with Deliver being the real issue), is hardly unjustified worry, therefore , it isnt, by definition, paranoia. IMO, paranoia, in this instance, is simply a word used to diminish the people who have taken the time to study the issue & evaluate it, critically.,
Just as " Conspiracy Theorist" is used to diminish people who have studied the way things are versus the way we are told they are, using critical thinking.
If someone believes the vacsucker is a good, dependable & trustworthy piece of equipment, Okay, good, believe as you please, but to attack those who dont & try to be condescending & belittle them, calling them paranoid, may just cause someone to fail to listen, & create a "V" moment for one of them one day.

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/12 at 17:05:54

So, Justin, from polling the list we all KNOW that at about a 50% acceptance level that they really ARE out to get you, so you aren't really being paranoid about your vac petcock, just justifiably cautious.

BUT, just suppose ....

Suppose you personally had already had a few very mild petcock starvation events before and you actually intellectually kinda knew what they really were from reading all about them. But you didn't like it very much and you chose not to do or to even think anything more about it ....

Passive denial, in other words.

How do folks like that define "Petcock Paranoia" when they use the term? Is it something associated in any way with them, or only with "them other guys"?

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/12 at 17:08:56

"I am secretly afraid of my petcock"?

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/12 at 17:34:59

Here we are, gotta have a paranoia poll if you are going to have a paranoia war.

;)

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by ZAR on 11/05/12 at 17:40:59

You guys are getting way too intelectual fer this ole country boy! All I know is what I know, and that is that my '96 has almost 14,000 miles(5500+ of those put on by me since June of this year) and I have yet to feel the sting of the nefarious "vac-sucker". Am I just lucky or the proud owner of a "special" non defective "vac-sucker? Who knows?

I will admit to my own bouts of paranoia at times,but that's reserved for the political houdulams! I'm not about to bad-mouth anybody else for their demons!

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/05/12 at 17:46:10

OK, ZAR you know about it and are keeping a weather eye out but as yet have not had any symptoms.

You are not paranoid, just aware.

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/12 at 17:51:19

So, Zar is awaranoid?

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by ZAR on 11/05/12 at 17:56:38

786761667B7C4D7D4D75676B20120 wrote:

So, Zar is awaranoid?

:o :o :D Yep! That'd be me JOG! My motto is "don't dare to be different...just do it"...be different that is ;).

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by rfw2003 on 11/05/12 at 18:05:52

Well I Raptored mine not only to get rid of the possible vac petcock issue before it came about, but mainly for 2 reasons, Tank removal and also plans on heavily modifying the bike. The biggest reason of course is the tank removal for now as with the stock vac petcock it's a pregnant dog to get the tack off with that thing on there, with the Raptor petcock on there the tank comes off oh so much easier.

R.F.

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by ZAR on 11/05/12 at 18:11:11

50445510121211220 wrote:

RF that's the one excuse I could use for spending the $$ for a raptor. Getting the tank off with the stock "vac-sucker" is like trying to get a kiss from " >:( she who must be obeyed" after a "short ride" turned into an "all-day road trip" ::)

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by ToesNose on 11/05/12 at 18:25:00

435C5A5D40477646764E5C501B290 wrote:

"I am secretly afraid of my petcock"?

I am openly afraid of your petCOCK ;D

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/12 at 18:56:14

& You, sir, are a very wise man..

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by HondaLavis on 11/05/12 at 18:57:53

I've actually had a handful of experiences that shared the same base line as OF's scenario: It wouldn't deliver enough gas. They would always be on long trips. If I did 85+ for more than 10 seconds, I'd get that sputter, have to pull over, prime it for a bit... I'd also had some intermittent problems driving through town where it would sputter and die for no apparent reason. Switching it to prime would fix it, then eventually I could flop it back to run and it would be fine. So, of course, I raptored it. Haven't looked back!

JOG couldn't have said it any better. It's NOT paranoia, as our caution is based in fact and experience.

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by MiCTLaN on 11/05/12 at 19:26:14

Mine showed up in the mail today... if I had a gas can to drain my tank I would have put it on already. :)

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by 07s40scotty on 11/05/12 at 19:54:55

I dont know, tough poll. I'd pick the first option in your poll IF you added "for ME" to the end. It's basically the same bike new or old with some minor changes thru the years. My bikes newish (07), but has more miles than some twice its age (16,000mi.) I haven't had any petcock issues. My friend two streets down has a 97 with 7,500 mi- he hasn't had any problems either... but the guy we see at the bar once in awhile with a 2010 (2,000 mi I think) thinks he might because it coughs & sputters for no apparent reason once in awhile -So I mentioned the Raptor to him. Do any of us have petcock problems? Maybe, maybe not...We all have the same basic bike for sure tho. ;D

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Routy on 11/06/12 at 04:36:48

There are many that had what seemed like fuel delivery problems at slower speeds....in town, or at 50 mph, but yet had no problems at hi speed, but couldn't hardly wait to get home to "Raptorize", are suffering from "PETCOCK PARANOIA"
Many here do not know that manifold vacuum is much more abundant at idle and low speed than it is at hi speed, so therefore if manifold vacuum supply was the problem w/ fuel delivery, it would first show up at highest speeds. These are the same group that think changing a fuel filter is going to cure a low speed or idle problem.
And many really did fix all their problems by "Raptorizing", till the next time they rode that is. But how many admit this,...10% ?? maybe 50%

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Routy on 11/06/12 at 04:56:44

191E5A1D195A4A465D5D50290 wrote:

I agree w/ the "for me" part.

There is no catagory for my vote

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/12 at 09:00:40

Expound on that a bit, Routy. If petcock fail doesn't exist for you (and you and Scotty seem to want to make that careful distinction) who does it exist for?

And once you tell us what group this is, are they paranoid for looking out for it?

BTW, I fixed the category for you and Scotty so you can vote now

======================================

Now, Scotty and Routy have brought up a Mental Mindset or Viewpoint that says "for me, there is no issue -- I need a separate classification".

This implies a different world view on the subject of petcocks, failures, etc. They also carefully insist on a different wording that keeps them separate from "the others" as any broad general definition is too confining. They can feel comfortable saying there is no petcock problem, for them.

Anybody got any comment on this mindset?

:D Routy used to be blunter, he'd tell Serowbot and I that we were deluded .....

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Bubba on 11/06/12 at 10:39:02

I didn't fill out the survey because the vac petcock does not affect me...
I have a raptor on it because it sputtered and died in the mornings...replaced the petcock...now it doesn't

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/12 at 10:50:45

Bubba, do you feel you were driven by any form of paranoia?

Were you deluded or influenced in any way by others here on the list (specifically me or Serowbot?)

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Dave on 11/06/12 at 11:15:23

I took mine off.........mostly as preventative maintenance and a desire to be able to take the tank off without having to drain it and remove the stock Vacsucker. The auto petcock is a nice feature......but I am old school and actually had to teach myself not to reach down to shut the petcock off after riding.

I was not paranoid about the petcock. Well.......not any more than I am about the kickststand safety switch.....or the clutch safety switch.....or the cam chain tensioner........or the head plug......or the oil level.....or the ZDDP in my oil. Except for those worries....I pretty much enjoy my ride. Oh.....I almost forgot....I also worry about deer and cars.....and trucks!

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/12 at 11:41:07

Speaking about them deer and bear, are you planning to go back up to the mountains next year?

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Bubba on 11/06/12 at 11:46:23

OF,
I wasn't really paranoid...just irritated...when I bought the bike a few years ago I was the third owner...the guy I bought from seemed nice enough but you just never know...
anyway, I knew about this forum, did some digging around for stuttering problems and figured what they hey??? I'd only be out 20 bucks or so...I tried the raptor, it worked...I'm pleased
Honestly, shutting it off is something I would do with the stock one anyway so why not eliminate the possibility...

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by verslagen1 on 11/06/12 at 13:57:42

this is the single most discussed, $20 issue I've ever seen.

your favorite service agent won't even hum the star spangled banner for that much.

8-)

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Dave on 11/06/12 at 14:00:59

7A5951535059595047350 wrote:

Speaking about them deer and bear, are you planning to go back up to the mountains next year?

I thoroughly enjoyed the Dragon ride.....and can't help but think how much better it would be without all the knocking from my engine now that it is healed. I am planning on making the trip next summer. It may have been pretty hot that week....but I do prefer heat to rain (although either one is effective at keeping the Sport Bikers away).

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by greenmonster on 11/06/12 at 14:34:21

For me, Petcock Paranoia is the feeling I get any time that there is a problem with the bike. "It's the petcock!" Then I check it, and it turns out to be something else. I'm planning on changing it so that I stop feeling that way everytime something odd happens.

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by ColoS40Girl on 11/06/12 at 16:12:51

How about New Raptor on stock bike. Otherwise, None of the above!

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by trini tuner on 11/06/12 at 18:15:41

It happened to me today! I was on the highway doing over 60 for a good while and at one point it started to sputter, i tried to keep it going but i had to pull to the side, it shut off completely while i held in the clutch coasting to a stop. I wasnt going up a hill and i had at least 3/4 tank so i knew it had to be the petcock based on what i read here.

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/12 at 18:24:32

Trini,

Do you feel that knowing about the petcock being the likely cause of your issue has caused you any mental distress?

And were you in any way paranoid about it earlier today? Did you worry about the big black Ford truck any?

Did you know the story about the hockey puck smackin' Big Black Ford Truck running up the shoulder of the road was mostly 100% true?

(to get it all the way to 100% Verslagen will have to correct my feeble old memory some, but that's OK -- I need a little help every once and a while)

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/06/12 at 18:26:50

57747575727E49727F7E681B0 wrote:

How about New Raptor on stock bike. Otherwise, None of the above!

Nope, you are right.

You would need a special class called "Suzuki dealer admits stock vac petcock is not up to the job, replaces with Raptor."

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by 07s40scotty on 11/06/12 at 21:04:39

Just seems like a mute point to me IMHO. If it ain't brock don't fix it. If it is- then by all means spend the $20 & change it out... If you can't sleep because something "might happen" then change it. But if I "fixed" my bike keeping in mind everything that might happen- then I'd spend hundreds of dollars a month on stuff I don't necessarly need (brakes, tires, battery etc.) :)

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/07/12 at 03:33:27

In essence, this thread is a self-examination of what you think about the vac petcock, in retrospect knowing what you know now.

It has been what, three (3) years now since Serowbot posted the "How to test your Petcock" which started off the 3 years of "Petcock Wars" of which there have been about 6 or 8 in total, each jumping up to discuss a pertinent new bit of vac petcock knowledge as it became available.

Serowbot and I were about alone then, with everyone telling us we'd fill our sumps up with gasoline by using them primitive mechanical petcocks.

That really was what folks thought back then .....

"Raptor putting gas into the sump" has (so far) never happened, although I will always keep looking for the very first one because logically it should happen, eventually.

Vac Petcock failure modes started out as two (2) but is now up to five (5) as people have discussed poor running and stalling issues down to the point they have shown us three new ways for a vacksucker to show it's arse in normal use.

We have seen multiple gas in sump episodes from the vac petcock and many many failures and stalled bikes and upset people. ColoS40Girl just broke some new ground when a Suzuki dealership replaced her vacsucker with a Raptor under warranty as a warranty repair.

And the percentage of believers went from 33% at the end of the first year to 55% the second year to (on this last poll) the percent of believers is currently right at 85% (33 out of 39 responding)

And our response to newbie help requests has picked up Serowbot's test as the Number 1 thing a newbie needs to immediately do to separate out his vacsucker issues from his other remaining issues.

And, right now the vacsucker is running at 4 to one as the root cause of most newbie reported "poor running" issues.

So, what you believe is still changing year on year.

;)

I wonder what next year will be like?

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Gyrobob on 11/07/12 at 04:29:15

0C0B4F080C4F5F534848453C0 wrote:

Just seems like a mute point to me IMHO. If it ain't brock don't fix it. ... :)

Mute point? Brock? Don't fix it? hmmm

I agree, you don't need to replace everything that might break at some point in the future. What you DO need to do, though, is take advantage of lessons learned by those wiser and more experienced, hopefully saving you from spending a semester in the school of hard knocks.

I have owned and operated many bikes,.. a few hundred thousand miles altogether since the early 1960's.
-- The first several had manual petcocks like the Raptor petcock. No failures there.
-- The rest had a vacuum operated petcock. No failures there except for one time the vacuum line from the carb developed a leak and let the diaphragm close the petcock. Silly me, I spent way too much time along the side of the road trying to figure out what was wrong before it donned on me to move the lever to PRI. So the petcock didn't fail; it worked perfectly.

That said, I replaced the petcocks on both bikes in the Double RYCA build with Raptor petcocks simply because I didn't want to spend another semester in the school of hard knocks. While I have never had a vacuum operated petcock fail on any motorcycle, the long-term experts here have taken the trouble to let the rest of us know of a peculiar problem with this Suzuki part. Highly valuable info. I consider this almost as important as the chain tensioner mod, by the way.

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/16/12 at 16:07:45

bump, in case anybody needs it ....

Title: Re: Petcock Paranoia (petcock war again)
Post by Oldfeller on 11/18/12 at 06:15:24

bump, again if anybody needs it