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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> +/- of drilling or replacing muffler /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1351607105 Message started by David Bookbinder on 10/30/12 at 07:25:05 |
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Title: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by David Bookbinder on 10/30/12 at 07:25:05 Had my bike in to replace a defective turn signal and cylinder head leak, and the mechanic wants to sell me on installing a SuperTrapp muffler. He claims the bike will run cooler with a less restrictive exhaust and reduce the chances of a future oil leak or head plug problem as well as improve performance dramatically. I'm wonder what others have experienced with aftermarket exhausts on their bikes, and also whether simply drilling a few holes in the baffles of the existing muffler will achieve essentially the same improvements. I am not looking for ways to make the bike sound cooler -- just ways to have it run cooler, and perhaps a little better. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Dave on 10/30/12 at 07:40:13 Changing the muffler will not reduce the temperatures or reduce oil leaks. Changing the muffler and changing carb jets and the slide needle position can make the bike run smoother and make if more fun. You can drill some holes in the stock muffler and some are happy with the results. The Dyna muffler conversion is good and is a bit louder - but not too loud in my opinion. The Supertrapp is too loud for my old ears - I have a nice one for sale in the MarketPlace Section as I like the DYNA muffler better. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Serowbot on 10/30/12 at 07:43:41 I think your mechanic just wants some extra bucks... If you want better breahing,nicer tone, an 10lbs less weight,... get a Harley shorty for $20 or $30 bucks... I've had bad luck with Supertrapps... poorly made, cheap chrome discolors and scratches easy... bolts break, and packing blows out fast... way too pricey for the quality of build.. Cooler?... if the stock muffler made the engine run hotter,... I think we'd see more blued pipes on bikes with stock mufflers... which hasn't been the case... I call Bullpucky... :-?.... (I just swapped Gerry's Supertrapp for a Harley shorty, yesterday)... |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Oldfeller on 10/30/12 at 08:14:40 +1 on the greedy mechanic. He knows he is signing you up for several service calls while he slowly puts in the jetting and air filtration systems to balance out that noisy muffler. Dyna muffler (take off Harley muffler) is cheap to free, and it is the best balance of sound and performance we have found to date. Here is your tech thread on the dyna muffler. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1298689417/14#14 |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by heroicseven on 10/30/12 at 08:46:22 The super trapp is one of the best upgrades I've made. There's one in the marketplace if you are so inclined, but my bike runs a lot better. Smoother and quicker. You will have to jet for it but once its dialed in the sound and performance is nice. I couldn't justify the $400 retail, but a nice second hand for under 200 has left me very pleased. I don't have a lot extra to spare but it was a huge step up from the Dyna muffler. IMO I still think the mechanic is Tryin to take you >:( |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by verslagen1 on 10/30/12 at 08:54:51 +1 horse pucky was he sellin' klotz too? I like the supertrapps for the sound and ease of tuning. but for $20 or so bucks, an HD take off can't be beat. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by David Bookbinder on 10/30/12 at 09:43:09 Thanks. I'm getting the idea that the Harley muffler is preferred by most, but wondering what advantages of the SuperTrapp are for the one respondent who likes it here. Also wondering what advantage the Harley muffler has over just drilling some holes in the stock muffler baffles. What kind of rejetting is typically needed if I go the Harley muffler route? Right now, the bike backfires badly and I'm hoping going up a size in the pilot jet will fix that, along with readjusting the idle mix screw. Will I need to modify those changes if I go with a less restrictive muffler? |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/30/12 at 09:44:53 Ive Got a Supertrapp. Its a Good muffler, but its a TON of $$$ & for next to Nothing, a DYna, which is better looking IMO, can be had, youll get a decent performance boost, nice sound & for almost no money.,,or, you can have the the same performance boost ( within fractions of a HP) for $400.00.. Dude, do it yourself, do the Dyna, YOUll never wish youd spent that other $380.00 for that fraction of a HP.. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by David Bookbinder on 10/30/12 at 09:52:00 I'm getting convinced. Given that it's been 33 years since I've done much messing with a bike, it would be helpful to have more step-by-step instructions than on the thread linked to earlier in this one. Is there more info elsewhere that people have found helpful? In addition to installing the muffler, I'm wondering about other modifications I'll need to make to take advantage of the reduced back pressure so the bike runs cooler and doesn't backfire. What, besides the sound, have people liked about replacing the stock muffler with the dyna one? How does it perform better? |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Dave on 10/30/12 at 10:05:21 Running cooler is not a function of the muffler....that mechanic steered you wrong on that issue. Less back pressure in the exhaust will help you to get better performance.....not better mileage or run any cooler. The bike from the factory is jetted to run very nearly lean at Sea Level, and when you go up in elevation and/or make changes to the intake or exhaust system you need to do a little work to the carb to make the bike run smooth. You will never get rid of the backfires completely - but you can make them less severe and less often. I believe the DYNA muffler weighs much less than the stock one and is less restrictive - which will help with the performance and with jetting will make the bike accelerate and run smoothly. The DNYA muffler is smaller and sleeker than the stock muffler. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by David Bookbinder on 10/30/12 at 10:17:07 So, with less restrictive exhaust, would the bike tend to run even leaner without adjusting the carb? And would I need to richen the mix at all levels (idle, pilot jet, main jet, adjust the needle) to keep it from running too lean? |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Serowbot on 10/30/12 at 11:39:48 Depends on elevation, mostly... Serowbot's carb tuning tips for beginners... (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1309246277) |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Dave on 10/30/12 at 11:41:23 4E484545414843444E4F582A0 wrote:
Everything I read says that when you make the exhaust and the intake flow better.....you will probably have to increase a jet somewhere. I believe the effects at lower rpm's are probably less noticeable - as the flow restrictions were probably not bad at low power settings. I have only ridden one completely stock bike when I was looking for a bike to buy. It had a noticeable uneven feel to it just off idle, and when you were cruising at low throttle settings the bike felt like you were riding behind a semi and the wind was buffeting you.....the bike should not feel like that at any throttle settings. A properly jetted bike runs really smooth. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by ToesNose on 10/30/12 at 11:48:34 73607776696462606B34050 wrote:
OH NO YOU DIDN'T!!! ;D |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by MiCTLaN on 10/30/12 at 14:54:51 I put a Dyna on mine a couple of weeks ago and only bumped up the main jet one size and did the spacer mod with the washers included in Lancer's jet kit. Aside from some issues I had with getting everything to clamp tightly, it's the best $45 or so I've put into a bike yet (price includes the muffler, assorted clamp accouterments, jet kit, and a 12 pack of Krystal burgers). It now has better sound, better acceleration, and somehow better gas mileage... I believe the latter has more to do with cleaning the carb and getting everything adjusted well (more or less) than adding the exhaust though. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by David Bookbinder on 10/30/12 at 17:14:34 I'm wondering if drilling holes in the baffles would have about the same effect, with no work other than whatever rejetting might be needed. Anybody monitoring this thread tried it with the S40/Savage and can compare to installing the Dyna muffler? |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/30/12 at 17:29:06 Its been done, some who did it said they liked the result, otyhers, not so much, The Dyna weighs considerably less, is more attractive than any other Common muffler, tho I gotta hand it to Brave Teacher for puttin together a fine looking muffler, with that brass insert & all. His took some time, a Dyna is a grab & go kinda deal, except for havin a muffler shop build up an angled tube to join it to the header, I think some have managed to dodge that, but, wouldnt swear to it., My opinion? The stock exhaust is nothing short of hideous,.few others disagree. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Dave Sisk on 10/30/12 at 18:11:18 35333E3E3A33383F353423510 wrote:
I've actually got a Jardine on mine (which I got for cheap slightly used from one of our members here). It's quite loud under hard throttle, but I like it. Without tearing into the carbuerator to check, I believe mine has already been re-jetted for a less restrictive exhaust, even though it had the fairly restrictive stock exhaust. Mine had the unmodified stock exhaust when I got it...it sounded like I was riding a sewing machine. ;D I drilled 4 x 1/2" holes in my stock exhaust. It became a little louder and deeper...but sounded like I was riding an old Volkswagon Beetle (it had that metallic ping from the baffles in the stock exhaust). I then snagged the Jardine from a member here, and I'm pretty happy with it. Drill the stock exhaust first since that's free. ;) Cheers, Dave |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Jeff Jopling on 10/30/12 at 22:23:52 I have no experience with the Dyna and that is the route I will eventually take more than likely. I have an 07 s40 and def wanted a louder and deeper exhaust, I started by drilling 4 1/2 inch holes and it was louder and deeper but still pretty weak. I then moved to 4 3/8ths of an inch holes and it sounds 10 times better. Much louder and deeper sounds more like a motorcycle rather than a toy. It still isnt as loud or deep as I would like but for the price of free you cannot beat it. I have not rejet mine and I cannot notice any problems at all. I do still have the pops under decceleration though. I would start with drilling 1/2 inch holes and see how you like it, then if you want more I would move up to 3/8ths. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/30/12 at 22:31:00 YOur drill bit index is set up a bit different than mine, I think.,, Mine has the 3/8ths just in a slightly smaller hole than the 1/2 inch.. 1/2 X 4/4 = 4/8 = 1/2" |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Routy on 10/31/12 at 06:45:22 Ended up w/ 5/16" hole size here. I like it. My bro's Dana sounds a little better, but it sure isn't any faster,....and both w/ stock jets, both on '07s And after 4 yrs, his Dana still leaks at the muff inlet. Its only fair to warn you (read dozens of posts here) that a Dana install is not straight forward,.....that most who have done it are still fighting leaks. So unless you are a real exhaust leak technition, or a good welder, think twice before ditching the stock exhaust. Myself, I like "original" http://p1.bikepics.com/2010/03/14/bikepics-1926789-full.jpg |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by prsavage on 10/31/12 at 09:41:20 My 1990 came to me with the stock muffler drilled like the post above. I never had a problem with the sound. It was a bit throatier than stock and obviously cheaper than even a Dyna as it is no cost. I don't know if it was rejetted as I never bothered to look. The biggest difference between mine and my wife's stock 2004 was hers did the popping on deceleration and mine didn't. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by David Bookbinder on 10/31/12 at 09:54:33 I'm not looking to make the sound louder, deeper, or more "cool," just to make the bike run better. Not clear, from people who have done it, that drilling out the baffles actually makes a noticeable difference in performance. Or does it? In terms of adding the Dyna muffler, what kinds of performance improvements, if any, do you notice? I'd be particularly interested in acceleration improvements at highway speeds, as I don't feel as maneuverable as I'd like to there. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Serowbot on 10/31/12 at 10:26:22 Just a muffler won't give you "dramatic" performance gains... even a K/N air filter, exhaust port match, muffler, and rejet... will only give 3 to 5 hp's... That equals a subtle but noticeable gain.... 10% to 20% gain... Just a muffler,.. 5% to 10%... A Harley shorty,... sounds better, is lighter, better made, and looks better... .. and it breathes just a bit better... other brands will make more noise,.. but little difference in performance... Sometimes the sound gives the illusion of more gain,.. but it ain't magic... Advertisers want you think it is... :-?... Drilling out a stock muffler is mostly a sound modification... |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/12 at 10:41:11 IMO, even If the Dyna offered zero change in sound & power, its a step up in look & ya lose a few pounds. But, ya do get a better sound, & it flows easier. YOu may or may not need a rejet, If it was mine, Id get the OEM muffler off, just to make it easy on the muffler people & to make sure they didnt mess things up yanking/beating on the Trash Can, Ride it to the shop, let it cool off & show them what youre trying to do. Id definitely call ahead, make sure theyll do it for a reasonable price. Waitaminnit,, Havent some people made the switch w/o having to have a bent part made? You spose theres some tiny swing in the header in or out that makes it work easier? Anyway, If you can get some help & get the thing on w/o leaks, youll like the heck out of it I think,, Or, look at that thing Brave Teacher did, Thats a nice look, not a ton O $$, just add talent, skill & ability,, Dont forget to take T-Clamps. Id think a properly flared & slotted adapter with a good clamp would not leak, The adapter otta not run $20.00,, I dont think it should be more than $10.00, unless you get stainless, which would be nice, but it will go behind a shield. There are shields available that are straight, to replace that flared thing that goes to the Trash Can. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Cavi Mike on 10/31/12 at 13:29:22 I dunno, 10% is a pretty big gain in my book. I'd have to call that dramatic for something as simple as a different muffler and air-filter. There aren't too many vehicles out there that will gain 10% from that. That's usually something a turbocharged vehicle will gain. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Jeff Jopling on 10/31/12 at 15:43:57 66797F7865625363536B79753E0C0 wrote:
Yeah it was late, I actually meant to say I started with 1/4 inch holes not 1/2. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Serowbot on 10/31/12 at 16:06:17 7153445B7F5B5957320 wrote:
On a 31hp bike,.. that's only 3 horsies.. I'm putting out about 34hp now... 3 more horsies just feels like your bike got out of the right side of the bed today... ;D... |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by heroicseven on 10/31/12 at 22:40:57 505F455E424457555D5344360 wrote:
My experience as well. I had the Dyna but it leaked like heck. Supertrappp or the original is best in my opinion. I like the look of the Dyna but the super is cool too!! This mine :D |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/12 at 00:04:52 Hey, Hero7, did you do the whole install on the Dyna or did you get an adapter made at a muffler shop? |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by J C Stokes on 11/01/12 at 01:31:44 So Routy, if you've put 8 5/16th holes you have enlarged the exhaust exit thingy by 2 1/2 inches, or is my maths wrong? |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by J C Stokes on 11/01/12 at 01:41:36 Also Routy, did you drill in place, or remove the pop rivets and plate? |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by tarkm812 on 11/01/12 at 08:00:38 JC Stokes, It doesn't add that way. Each hole's square area is less than it's diameter. Find the area of the drilled hole and multiply by how many holes. ( I think ). |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/12 at 09:39:06 .6136 square inches in those 8 holes. Or coulda poked one hole .441941738 inches in diameter. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by heroicseven on 11/01/12 at 17:36:16 2A353334292E1F2F1F27353972400 wrote:
I tried, every shop near me wanted 50 bucks plus.(maybe they smelled my newbishness) One guy quoted me 180. So I just went and bought the ryca version. that didnt pan out either. Still had leaks because there were two clamps now. I said no thanks to all that mess and jumped on a supertrapp in the marketplace for 170. For that price and ease of install it was worth it. I fired it up and it had a little more beef to the idle and a whole lot better of a sound and it made me ;D. the kicker was when I pulled away from my house and there was no more VW bug sound coming from my morterbike. very pleased. To recap for the original posterman. The dyna is the best bet granted you can get one for under $25, and get the adapter for about the same(might get lucky and not need it). You can probably get away with bending the brake arm in a wee bit in a vice. Honestly, you or anyone can have mine for the price of shipping, it aint pretty but it will work. Its just sitting on my back seat collecting dust. its got a pretty bad blueing/rubber stain in the middle of it. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/01/12 at 18:30:21 I tried, every shop near me wanted 50 bucks plus.(maybe they smelled my newbishness) One guy quoted me 180. WOW!! Iva had a bent section cut off the backhoe muffler( I folded it over when it hung on a vine) & replaced, cut & welded, one end flared, no bends, of course, Ill try not to do that again..& spent a whopping $30.00. Heck, I got the muffler and pipe & welded for under $50.00 I think.,.,They just tried to hang you., bummer, dude, but ya sure got a breat on that TRapp.. IIRC, theyre about $400.00 Dollurs,, |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by oldNslow on 11/03/12 at 18:00:05 Well, after reading through this thread, I went out and looked at the end of my muffler, which I've always assumed was completly stock. It's got two extra holes in it, each about 1/2 inch; one at 12:00 and one at 6:00. Even with the extra holes the exhaust on this bike is pretty quiet. I can't wait to discover what other mods the three previous owners might have done as I get more familiar with this thing. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/04/12 at 05:17:21 6856575B4955543A0 wrote:
That is a .19635 sq." increase in area. How big Is the ID on the stocker, anyway? |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by oldNslow on 11/04/12 at 07:22:04 "How big Is the ID on the stocker, anyway?" Mine is about 5/8". Not a lot of area even with the extra holes. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Routy on 11/04/12 at 07:37:50 072A30312A2B2C3120450 wrote:
I drilled on the bike. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Gyrobob on 11/10/12 at 07:15:12 Let's say you have two exhaust pipes each with an ID of 2". Inside each of those exhaust pipes, you weld a 2" diameter baffle. One baffle has 20 holes -- each hole about a 1/4 inch in diameter, ~.126” radius (.126 because the guy doing the drilling used a battery-powered handheld drill with dull Big Lots bits not even made in China) -- each hole ~.05 square inches in area -- 20 x .126 x .126 x 3.142 = .998 -- total area for exhaust flow approx 1 square inch. The other baffle has one 1 1/8" hole, punched at a machine shop. -- 9/16” radius -- total area for exhaust flow about 1 square inch. (9/16 = .5625, so..... .563 x .563 x 3.142 = .996) For the sake of discussion, let's say the total area available to flow exhaust is the same for each baffle. Which exhaust pipe baffle will have less back pressure? Which will make more noise? |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Routy on 11/10/12 at 07:24:23 I would think the single hole would have less back pressure, and more noise. |
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Title: Re: +/- of drilling or replacing muffler Post by Gyrobob on 11/13/12 at 05:08:58 555A405B47415250585641330 wrote:
Correct. Every hole has a bit of turbulence around the edge that adds drag and therefore restricts flow a tiny bit. More holes=more turbulence=more drag for a given area of holes available for flowing the exhaust gases. There are a large number of variables (heat, pulsing (lack of smoothness), rpm, back pressure, etc.), but in this application, the total area of the holes in the 20-hole plate should probably be 10%-15% greater than the single hole for the same flow. As you might expect, this negates, somewhat, the noise reduction from the 20 holes. |
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