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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1350672537 Message started by trini tuner on 10/19/12 at 11:48:57 |
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Title: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by trini tuner on 10/19/12 at 11:48:57 Hey there everyone i am a proud owner of a 2001 suzuki savage, im having some trouble with it. You see, i just replaced the clutch cam release after it broke on me shortly after buying the bike, i didnt even ride the bike for more than 200 miles before it broke again. >:( I have checked the arm by the case and it sits between the marks correctly i havent adjusted the cable and it seems to be fine and have the right amount of freeplay (something like 3mm or so by the handle?) Am i doing something wrong? The first time i replaced the side cover the feel i got from the clutch lever was very nice i could pull it in with just two fingers but i used the wrong gasket maker and leaked oil all over so was forced to pull it again and do it right, the last time i installed the side cover the clutch lever was hard again but i didnt bother to remove it again as i was worried the seal i was making with the gasket maker on the sidecover wouldnt be too great if i did, is there a certain way for the spring to sit in there or something? The way i see it is something or somethings in the system are not up to mark and its placing a great stress on that part so it continues to break as it is made from some weaker type of metal (so that it breaks first). Help guys this is a real bummer i just wanna ride! |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by trini tuner on 10/19/12 at 11:49:30 Its part number 23 in this link in figure 14 http://www.suzukisavage.lt/upl/file/manual/PDF07-ls650-parts-list.pdf |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by Dave on 10/19/12 at 13:18:20 Why are you using "gasket maker" on the clutch cover? The factory didn't use it, and I don't use it and mine clutch cover doesn't leak. Get a new gasket if the old one is hard or torn. You can re-use the gasket several times......I have had my clutch cover off 2-3 times with the same gasket. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by verslagen1 on 10/19/12 at 13:24:23 These are sintered powder metal parts. Not as strong as billet. I've broken one. It's fun riding w/o a clutch. :o possibly you're overstressing the part by bottoming out the clutch rod. or snapping it back to the released position. or it fits loose on the shaft If I remember correctly, the rod sticks out of the clutch pack by 12.5 mm give or take a mile. Longer and it'll bottom out on the cover, shorter and you don't have enough throw. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/19/12 at 20:58:06 the last time i installed the side cover the clutch lever was hard again Pull the side cover. Pull the rod out & Look At it carefully. Look for any sign of a mark on one side. Something in the clutch pack is wrong or something is dragging on the rod. How hard it is to pull the clutch in 200 miles shouldnt change,Its not between the clutch lever & that throwout cam, or the cable would be a mess. If it got harder to pull the clutch AND the same part broke,, something is up in the clutch pack or something is in that hole the rod sits in, the last time i installed the side cover the clutch lever was hard again Or, am I r4eading this wrong? Are you saying it was hard after you put it back together, but not before? |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by trini tuner on 10/20/12 at 08:47:03 Well i went to measure the push rod and ended up putting it back in the wrong place for not paying attention to what i was doing, any one have any idea how to remove it from the small hole in front of the primary gear (well the gear thats next to the clutch pack) the one where you have to use a nickel to break loose the 30mm nut and then it looks like the shaft for the valve timing chain? Well its stuck in that shaft, I tried using a magnet and what not but just ended up pushing it back til it went no more out of frustration im seriously considering just lodging it in there with a bamboo chop stick or something but i know thats not right. Jeez.. it measured something like 10mm I know im not the first one but i really need help on how to get it out i tried searching but cant seem to come up with the correct wording. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by trini tuner on 10/20/12 at 08:53:31 The lever was hard to pull when i first bought the bike, after i installed the new rocker arm for the first time it worked really easily, but i was forced to pull the side cover yet another time to fix the seal and then thats when it became hard again. I was looking at the rod and it looked fine, your right it shouldnt change in 200 miles i think maybe it gets harder to pull once the rocker arm creates a crack? because it also get harder to get it into gear sometimes right before it breaks. It might be from snapping the lever back like verslagen said but i only do that when im riding hard and trying to shift fast and i dont think the way i do it is abusing it in a way that it will break? |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/20/12 at 13:49:45 YOuve seen it hard & youve seen it easy,, when its hard, the cam breaks. YOu gotta find whats binding. When it was hard to pull in, did it pop back out quickly or did it feel like when you let off a little with the grip it was a little slow pressing the lever back into your hand? IOW, do you think theres something in the clutch pack dragging? Has the clutch pack been taken apart? |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by trini tuner on 10/21/12 at 08:18:17 When it was hard to pull in, i dont think it would pop back quickly but it did feel like at times it was just a bit slow pulling in the lever again but that could have been my hand getting tired? It might help if i mention that the clutch does slip under hard acceleration. and the bike has almost 20k miles on it. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/21/12 at 17:28:00 I cant let go of the fact that youve seen the clutch be easier & harder to pull in,, If that was a cable problem, the throwout cam wouldntr have "felt" it, If it was a rod length problem, why would it have changed w/o changing the rod? So, IM left thinking its something outta whack in the clutch pack, Anyone have any other ideas to offer this guy? |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by trini tuner on 10/21/12 at 20:38:47 Maybe I am overstressing the part by bottoming out the clutch rod. I can also imagine how it fitting loose over the shaft could cause it to break too, is it supposed to wiggle a bit if anyone can recall or is it not supposed to have any play? |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/21/12 at 21:59:42 Slack in the parts wont make them break, |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by Cavi Mike on 10/22/12 at 12:09:14 Sounds like it's bottoming out to me. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/22/12 at 14:09:19 OP reports times when the clutch lever pulls easily, other times not. Bottoming out would only be felt at the end of the lever pull. It wouldnt create a hard pull thru the length of the pull. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by Cavi Mike on 10/22/12 at 15:00:07 This is the timeline I read: Hard to pull - took apart/reassembled - Easy to pull - took apart/reassembled - Hard to pull Is that correct or does it vary while you're riding it? |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by trini tuner on 10/22/12 at 17:11:22 You have the timeline correct, it does not vary as i am riding. When it was easy to pull it was only run like that for less than a mile so im not sure if it would have went back hard on its own or if its an error on my part. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by trini tuner on 11/02/12 at 18:46:14 So i have the parts on order already, im getting the two larger push rods and hopefully that will solve the problem, im also getting a clutch cover gasket this time for when i remove it again and 3 clutch rocker arms. Wish me luck guys hopefully ill be riding again for a while next week or so. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by Digger on 11/02/12 at 19:43:04 4E485354534E4F545F483A0 wrote:
Good luck....keep us posted! |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by Cavi Mike on 11/02/12 at 21:08:38 I have no hands-on experience with this specific part since I've never had my own cover off but looking at the diagram - it appears you can install the rocker arm four different ways and two of those ways is right and two of them are wrong. It looks like rotating it 180 degrees won't make a difference but if you flip it - it won't work properly. Is/was that your problem? |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by trini tuner on 11/03/12 at 23:44:06 The parts came in today! The bike's up and running alright, my brother was able to get out the pushrod that was stuck in the wrong place with a flathead and speaker magnet?, so no chop sticks for me ;D Turns out i was using the correct size pushrod like i thought, its the middle sized one by the way. I installed everything together and adjusted the clutch lever again this time i installed the spring with the rocker arm differently so that when you have the clutch cover in your hand and you move the arm there's some resistance. So i basically didnt do anything different except for how i installed the spring therefore im not totally convinced the problem is solved The clutch does not slip anymore i switched to Rotella from what i read here and i guess it was the same stuff the previous guy was using however even after i fiddled with the clutch lever adjustment, some times it is hard to go into first gear it goes in but not as smoothly as it should it makes a noise and sometimes you even feel "it" i think ideally it should shift like "butter" into all gears like it does just sometimes, i would place my foot down from neutral and it just goes in so nicely with no effort really but it only goes in like butter sometimes and i know its not supposed to be making a noise when you shift into gears. Im sure this has to do with the problem, the clutch arm is in the correct range by the way. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/04/12 at 01:03:10 Naaah,, when it doesnt make a clunk, you got lucky. Its not meant to be quiet, or noisy. Its meant to go into gear, & those gears are spinning, & they clack & bang around & theyre Right Down Thayer, inside that metal box, between your legs. Yea, Its gonna make racket.. no biggee at all. When it doesnt wanna go into 1st, its not usually a motorcycle failure, usually, its the guy holdin the clutch. If youve been sitting, in neutral, holding the clutch lever pulled in, its not gonna go into gear easily. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by trini tuner on 11/05/12 at 20:55:10 That makes me feel alot better. :) After some more time on the bike and what you said ive realized that its probably shifting fine but i did have to get it into gear real fast to avoid an angry mother coming after me with a broomstick and i almost got clobbered because it wouldnt go in, until i stepped on it like my well being depended on it lol and also the clutch still slips but not nearly as much as when i was using the valvoline motorcycle oil but i didnt expect the oil to cure it completely anyway. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/05/12 at 21:06:30 If you sit in Neutral with the clutch lever pulled in, youre begging for "It wont go into first gear" problems,. If you need to get in gear, quick, let the clutch out to the spot where it would start to pull a little If it was in gear, pull the clutch in & step down,. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by Dave on 11/06/12 at 04:52:03 4442595E5944455E5542300 wrote:
I think that story may be more interesting than the clutch issue! |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/06/12 at 15:07:54 Well, what do you know: It finally hit me today as well on the way to work. Bang, and the clutch was gone. First I thought it was the cable, but nope! I had to push the bike back home about a mile uphill. About 200 yards from the house I was in tears from exhaustion and pain in the hamstrings. I hope I can find the broke off piece though......I'm gonna tear it apart tonight and look. Parts are on order...DANG! :'( |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by verslagen1 on 11/06/12 at 15:27:07 No way I could push it home... I was on the superslab. think I push started it in gear from a dead stop. 8-) jammed into 2nd from there it was a piece of cake. 10 miles to home. the busted piece was still hanging on the shaft. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/06/12 at 16:43:16 Tore it apart and found that the oil pump gear has about 1/16" to 1/8" axial slop. It isn't near enough to disengage from what I can tell, but is that normal? I also found the source of the problem with oil seepage from the top in the area around the bolt closest to the oil filler. The case has a hairline crack above the thread. I have troubles with that since 15k miles, so the crack must be really old. Figure I'm gonna put that bolt back in there dipped into RTV and go from there. Not much you can do about that tiny crack. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/07/12 at 08:31:20 Upon looking closer at the broken pieces of the clutch cam/rocker it is pretty obvious why the part breaks often. it isn't a piece of powder metal or the likes, it is in fact matrix pulled bar stock steel that gets chopped of piece by piece in the factory and then the oval shaped hole in the middle gets reamed/stamped out showing I tool identations on both sides. The pieces then get hardened, which should be case hardenend in that matter. The reason is because the stressed areas of the part are exposed to shear and torsional forces which require the steel core of the part to remaoin somewhat "flexible". And here is where the problem comes in. The piece is REALLY hard, evident through the barely visible rub marks in the identation where the clutch rod touches. The HRC on this part is really good, considered that the bike has 18k mile on it. the way the part fractured indicates that after the hardening the part did not get annealed properly and that is why so many break. I'm considering annealing the new poece before putting it in. Not sure yet, because the part lasted for that long, which is kind of a surprise. The only reason it didn't break sooner is the fact that the stressed corners have sufficient radius to spread the loads. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by engineer on 11/07/12 at 13:12:22 Ralfyguy, I understand your complaint and have noticed that case hardening has almost become obsolete. Now days they often use one of the new specialty alloys of steel. Case hardening is one more process with several steps and it is probably cheaper to buy the alloy. Sometimes in order to save an old machine I make or repair parts with mild steel and case hardening has all the advantages you mentioned. At home I use a small heat treating furnance and case harden parts that I have made or repaired and the results are usually good. I use Kasenite to provide the case hardening material and have good results with it. It might be worth a try with your clutch part but it's got to be a lot easier to buy new ones. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by verslagen1 on 11/07/12 at 13:32:45 case hardening is still used where labor is cheap and special alloys aren't available. case in point, the cam chain adjusters plunger. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/07/12 at 13:53:01 34363D363F363A20530 wrote:
I wish I had all those things to work with that you have. I am out of the trade, and all I got at home is a vise and a few files. LOL I would make my own new piece if I could. The piece cost about $8, and hopefully it'll last another 18k miles. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/07/12 at 20:52:32 Cost isnt the issue for me, its a potential disaster. Busted chunk , spinning gears, what if youre running up onto the Slab & accelerating hard, coming out of 4th & goin to 5th ( No prob for me, Id do it WO the clutch), & it jams in & locks the thing down? Youre goin down, over a poorly designed piece of crap., |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/08/12 at 08:32:08 796660677A7D4C7C4C74666A21130 wrote:
That's what I was afraid of when it happened. Between that piece, the chain adjuster and the oil pump gear, you got a pretty nice clusterf.ck waiting for you in a small area. Perhaps I find me a piece of quality tool steel and whip out my file and make my own part. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/08/12 at 09:07:04 If I was gonna keep mine, Id have a part built. If I could do it myself in a reasonable amount of time, Id do it, I dont think the radius is quite sufficient as is. But thats me, Im no machinist,. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/08/12 at 16:18:37 5D4244435E5968586850424E05370 wrote:
I concur that there could be a little more meat on it and bigger radius, but not much as there is little room for improvement. The biggest improvement would be proper steel and heat treatment. Concerning the making your own part, the biggest challenge on that part would be the oval shaped hole in the middle made an exact fit to the shaft. I noticed there was some slop to it, but not from wear. It was that loose when new. A little too much slop for my taste as this aided the fracture point with jamming the edged part of the shaft on the inside of the part right where it broke. Kind of like laying glass on an edge and breaking it off. The tolerances should be tighter than that, no doubt about it. There is no reason for that much slop, not even thermo expansion. I understand that there might be people thinking what do I know compared to engineers at Suzuki, but I tell you that this part is definitely a shame for any engineer or whoever else decided to put it into mass production like that. The way it broke apart says it all. If it had been manufactured like the gears in the transmission or some parts in the motor, it wouldn't break like that. The design of the cam chain tensioner issue just as hideous. I say it again: I am still convinced that the piece was not properly annealed. I used to make sheet metal stamping tools and during my education we we're shown examples of improper annealing after hardening the stamps and they just busted like that piece here. Looking at it shows that it broke like a piece of porcelain. Putting the halves together, and they fit almost without a visible fracture line. That tells it all. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/08/12 at 21:55:31 I wish I had the experience dealing with metals to know that stuff.. I annealed my first brass the other day. Unlike steel, after spanking it ( & not long, either) a while with a hammer, it started getting hard. I took the butane soldering pencil & used the flame to heat it up, quenched it & it was soft again, |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/09/12 at 06:04:26 Annealing steel is pretty much a matter of timing. Unlike with hardening you don't use oil to quench it. The oil provides a slower cooling that if you would use water it could crack or warp the piece you're working on. The red glowing piece is too hot to cool it too fast. Also when you stick in the oil, don't hold it stationary, but move it around in the bucket to avoid heat pockets that surround the piece and would not provide sufficient cooling power. The part would not get hard and simply stay soft. Annealing goes by color, meaning slow heat up with a flame and observing when the color of the steel changes. When the piece starts to get golden, get ready. Then follows purple and in the bucket it goes immediatly. When it turns blue, depending on the steel you are perhaps too late and the part already lost the integrity you want. This process keeps a layer of hardness on the outside, but maintains the toughness of the original steel structure it had before hardening. This is pretty much the old school way. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/09/12 at 06:25:29 Old school built America |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by Cavi Mike on 11/09/12 at 09:18:59 Quenching in oil is not an annealing method, it is a hardening method, and it doesn't bring the temperature down slowly. In fact it's quite the opposite. Oil-quenching is used because it's the fastest method to bring the temperature down and this is what hardens metals. Brass is different though. Simply heating it is enough to anneal it and it doesn't matter how you cool it - so dipping it in oil is fine. Don't try that with anything else because it will harden it. Annealing is typically done in an oven that can slowly bring the temperature back down, much slower than just leaving it in the ambient temperature of a room. A2 is an air-hardening steel that will harden all by itself in the air after heating it so to anneal it you MUST use an oven. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/11/12 at 21:16:53 BTW its been about 8k miles since I put the extended plunger in the cam chain adjuster and it was about 2-3mm out when I put it in. It is now 5mm out and the chain sides are still 13mm from touching. I actually expected worse. Just FYI. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/11/12 at 22:21:22 I still think there are too many teeth on that thing.. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/13/12 at 08:33:06 27383E3924231222122A38347F4D0 wrote:
I think so too. Anyway, my parts show cross shipped...whatever that means...I wonder for how long that bike is gonna be down. If I had a little piece of decent tool steel I would start and try to make my own. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by verslagen1 on 11/13/12 at 08:48:24 75666B617E60727E070 wrote:
I think so too. Anyway, my parts show cross shipped...whatever that means...I wonder for how long that bike is gonna be down. If I had a little piece of decent tool steel I would start and try to make my own. [/quote] Any time you 2 want, I got scrap that you can play with. You can modify the existing teeth or flip it over and make a whole set of new teeth. the plunger is case hardened so you'll need a carbide tool to cut it or a grinder. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/13/12 at 10:06:34 372433322D2026242F70410 wrote:
I think so too. Anyway, my parts show cross shipped...whatever that means...I wonder for how long that bike is gonna be down. If I had a little piece of decent tool steel I would start and try to make my own. [/quote] Any time you 2 want, I got scrap that you can play with. You can modify the existing teeth or flip it over and make a whole set of new teeth. the plunger is case hardened so you'll need a carbide tool to cut ;) it or a grinder.[/quote] Got a spare clutch cam? |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by verslagen1 on 11/13/12 at 10:35:07 5D4E434956485A562F0 wrote:
I think so too. Anyway, my parts show cross shipped...whatever that means...I wonder for how long that bike is gonna be down. If I had a little piece of decent tool steel I would start and try to make my own. [/quote] Any time you 2 want, I got scrap that you can play with. You can modify the existing teeth or flip it over and make a whole set of new teeth. the plunger is case hardened so you'll need a carbide tool to cut ;) it or a grinder.[/quote] Got a spare clutch cam?[/quote] The only spare of those is in 2 pieces like yours. I thought we were discussing the cam chain adjuster plunger. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by ralfyguy on 11/13/12 at 10:47:37 7E6D7A7B64696F6D6639080 wrote:
I think so too. Anyway, my parts show cross shipped...whatever that means...I wonder for how long that bike is gonna be down. If I had a little piece of decent tool steel I would start and try to make my own. [/quote] Any time you 2 want, I got scrap that you can play with. You can modify the existing teeth or flip it over and make a whole set of new teeth. the plunger is case hardened so you'll need a carbide tool to cut ;) it or a grinder.[/quote] Got a spare clutch cam?[/quote] The only spare of those is in 2 pieces like yours. I thought we were discussing the cam chain adjuster plunger.[/quote] No I just made a remark to JOG's comment. I was looking for a way to make my own clutch cam. |
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Title: Re: Clutch cam release (rocker arm) keeps breaking Post by Oldfeller on 11/13/12 at 10:54:25 Somebody with a plate cutting laser could whack out a bunch of them out of a good heat treatable plate steel. The rounded pocket would have to be cut, and then the part heat would have to be heat treated for sufficient hardness to withstand the friction from the push rod. It wouldn't be cheap in a small batch, unless they had after hours access to the equipment. |
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