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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Taller gear possibilities /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1349970207 Message started by serenity3743 on 10/11/12 at 08:43:26 |
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Title: Taller gear possibilities Post by serenity3743 on 10/11/12 at 08:43:26 I mentioned this in the 2013 Tail of the Dragon thread, but I think it deserves its own posting. The story thus far is that my drive shaft splines wore down and finally let go. I am in the process of dismantling the engine and will soon split the case to get at the tranny. Iwas thinking while I'm in there, I'd like to see what can be done to improve the overdrive effect by maybe inventing a 6-speed. But a "fellow Tailer's" suggestion was to try to find and install a taller 5th gear. I seem to recall someone (Verslagen, Lancer, Oldfeller?) saying that in the early years - 1986 until 1990s - the old 4-speed tranny had a 4th gear which was actually slightly taller than our current 5th gear. Has anybody verified this? Alternatively, does anyone know, or know how to find out, if there are any "6th gears" which might interchange with my 5th? Thanks in advance for your input. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by verslagen1 on 10/11/12 at 08:55:41 I've never seen one, if the taller primary exists, it's on an '86 or maybe an '87. I've got an '88 and it's identical to all the others. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/11/12 at 09:09:20 Is there any possibility of a drive pulley with another tooth on it? I would assume having one made would cost several hundred bucks |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Cavi Mike on 10/11/12 at 09:49:46 Yeah there's some Kawasaki pulley that's 25t but it requires machining front and back to fit the shaft. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/11/12 at 11:36:56 Is this the same "Machining" we saw accomplished with a grinder mounted to a mini drill press? |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/11/12 at 11:42:59 1735223D193D3F31540 wrote:
How many teeth does our bike have? How much machining? Is it just lathe work? I occasionally shoot IPDA with a guy who has a lathe in his work shop. He gunsmiths occasionally and has some cool equipment. I'd be interested in getting a taller gear ratio for the CS-1 I'm riding around now. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by verslagen1 on 10/11/12 at 11:58:49 23 |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Dave on 10/11/12 at 14:18:03 The stock Suzuki pulley is 23 tooth, the kawasaki EN454 LTD or something like that is a 25 tooth. The hub is the correct spline - but is thicker and needs to be machined on the front and back to match the width wee need. The problem is the metal is some sintered, hardened, tough stuff.....and evidently throwing it in a lathe is not very productive. I bought one......I just have not gotten it machined yet. For the better gear ratio.....so far the closest looking one I have found in the parts list is the 6th Gear in the Suzuki Versa. It is in the same location on the input and output shafts.....but nobody knows if the shaft size, splines, or gears are any better? |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/11/12 at 21:41:49 6F54594E5F53484E555D504F3C0 wrote:
Tough metal that is very hard to cut on a lathe can often be ground down. If all that is needed is to make it fit the spline on a Savage that is just not as long as the spline on a 454, you don't need to be very precise for that. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by HondaLavis on 10/12/12 at 01:19:29 If you wanted to change the gear ratio between the drive pulley and the rear wheel, you could do it very easily with a sprocket/chain conversion. You can get sprockets made in any size you could think of. ;) |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Cavi Mike on 10/12/12 at 01:27:08 1A242F323F323F5D0 wrote:
Yes you do. We've gone over that in another thread - the makeshift mill using an angle grinder that was mentioned earlier. The spline will not keep the pulley straight. How true the pulley spins is dependent on how true the mounting surfaces are. The mounting surface must be perpendicular to the pulley. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Drifter on 10/12/12 at 04:41:07 Has anyone done the kawi pully conversion yet if so what do you think, any noticeable change? 2 teeth does not seem like much..... |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/12/12 at 04:42:31 5577607F5B7F7D73160 wrote:
Yes you do. We've gone over that in another thread - the makeshift mill using an angle grinder that was mentioned earlier. The spline will not keep the pulley straight. How true the pulley spins is dependent on how true the mounting surfaces are. The mounting surface must be perpendicular to the pulley.[/quote] I should have stated it more clearly. Yes, of course the surfaces must be perfectly flat and perpendicular to the axis of the pulley shaft. The actual amount taken off the pulley is not as important. All that matters for the distance from one side of the pulley to the other is that it be within a few hundredths of the stock pulley and that it ends up centered on where it should be for belt alignment. How much needs to be taken off? |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Dave on 10/12/12 at 04:49:13 13253E31233225570 wrote:
Yes, a couple of people have done the conversion. MMRanch is one. The difference between them is 25/23 = 1.0878....or 8.7% overdrive. This will reduce the rpms in high gear by 23/25 to 92% of what it was before the change. With stock gearing the bike at 60 mph is turning about 4,000 rpm....with the change in the front sprocket the engine will be turning 3,680 rpm at 60 mph. Those who have done the change say it is a noticeable difference. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/12/12 at 06:42:07 A new 25t drive sprocket from Cheap Cycle Parts is about $85. I wonder how much a machine shop would charge to take off enough metal so it would work on a Savage? How much metal has to be removed? |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/12/12 at 06:49:24 Here's another thought. The RYCA has a pretty tight belt clearance situation: -- the top and bottom of the belt when it gets close to the drive pulley -- at the swingarm if you are using one of the RYCA modified swingarms and an old-style 4.00-18 tire like my Avon Speedmaster. There is a very narrow range where the axle is forward enough to not overtighten the belt when you hit a bump, and rearward enough to not rub on the swingarm. If you install a pulley that is a 1/3" larger diameter, 1/6" (approx .017") larger radius, this would complicate the issue. You'd need a longer belt maybe. I'd be surprised if there is a 1/2" longer belt available. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Drifter on 10/12/12 at 07:57:46 I agree a 8% change would be noticable and a welcome change!! Like others have asked how much metal needs to be removed? Is the 400/750 pully the same as the 454? I was looking at a gpz 305 and the pullys were way different in size. This sounds like a good idea to keep the belt drive. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Dave on 10/12/12 at 08:08:09 685E454A58495E2C0 wrote:
I have the measurents at home....I will post the part number and dimensions when I get home. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/12/12 at 08:15:33 Do belts exist in different lengths for Savage? |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by verslagen1 on 10/12/12 at 08:41:20 There are industrial belts available in different lengths, but you'll pay a premium for them. The savage belt has 133 teeth. next size up is 135, then increment in 5's. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/12/12 at 12:17:57 574453524D4046444F10210 wrote:
If I switched to a 135 tooth belt, how much rearward would the axle move for the same belt tension? So if you use a belt with more teeth, does that give you a higher gear? ;) |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Boule’tard on 10/12/12 at 13:13:15 0B353E232E232E4C0 wrote:
One toothlength * cos(angle between countershaft/axle line and belt) That is close but not 100% accurate for reason too lazy to type. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by clearush on 10/12/12 at 14:59:55 here is serowbot thread on the pulley http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1334871333/0 |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/12/12 at 20:33:32 Who makes the belt? Gates? Kelly Springfield? |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by verslagen1 on 10/12/12 at 20:53:25 bando |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Dave on 10/13/12 at 07:46:34 I measured the new pulley....and calcuted the diameter of the stock pulley so I don' have to take mine off. The 25 tooth pulley has a circumference of 347mm as measured with a cloth tape, and the calculated diameter is 110.45mm. If I calculate the reduction from 25 tooth to 23 tooth it provides a circumference of 319.24mm, and a diameter of 101.61mm. This makes an increase of the new pulley radius of 8.84mm (0.1738").....or just a tad less then 3/16". The pitch of the teeth appears to be 13.88 mm - so getting a belt with 2 more teeth would lengthen the distance to the rear wheel by the distance of one tooth (13.88 mm or 0.54")....so the longer belt would move the rear wheel back (0.54" - 0.1738" = 0.3726")....or about 3/8". (Update: I just read a following post where the tooth pitch is 14mm and not 13.88 as I calculated....and I suspect the difference is the diameter of the belt on top of the hub....or the innacuracy of the cloth tape). I measured the hubs on both the stock 23 tooth and the 25 tooth, and it is necessary to remove 0.368" from the front of the hub and 0.183" from the back of the hub. I checked my measurements as it was hard to get a good reference point with the calipers I have....and the to distances checked within 0.045".....so that is my accuracy error and when I get them machined I will take both pullies. I have a friend that thinks he can machine it on a lathe....it will take carbide bit inserts and from what I have read.....it takes a few of them. http://i48.tinypic.com/2lw4y01.jpg http://i49.tinypic.com/dzcccz.jpg |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/13/12 at 07:53:55 3E2D3A3B24292F2D267 9480 wrote:
Yes I see that now. I just went out and looked at it. Bando 27611-24B00-133 I measured it as well. 40mm wide with a 14mm pitch and a thickness (height) of 9mm. Maybe it was 10mm when new. I have been strolling around the internet and have as yet to find a listing of these belts that shows the Savage belt as well as a 135 tooth version. I found a few charts that show 40mm 135 tooth 14mm pitch belts, but there is not enough info there to know if those belts are suited to harsh motorcycle duty. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/13/12 at 08:02:23 Dave said, "I measured the hubs on both the stock 23 tooth and the 25 tooth, and it is necessary to remove 0.368" from the front of the hub and 0.183" from the back of the hub." Do you really have to remove about a 1/2" from the pulley hub area from side to side? That would seem to be asking for some variation in keeping the pulley perfectly perpendicular to the axis of rotation. I suppose, though, if the pulley is a tight fit on the spline, this won't be a problem. I'm just curious as to why kawasaki thinks there needs to be so much more contact area on the spline. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Dave on 10/13/12 at 08:23:19 625C574A474A47250 wrote:
Yes......you have to remove the material or it won't fit. The Kawasaki hub is too wide to allow the lock tab and nut to fit on the Suzuki. The Kawasaki pulley is held on by a splined keeper. It goes on the outside of the pulley, rotates in a notch machined into the splines, then bolts onto the pulley. It only prevents the pulley from moving along the shaft.....it does not lock the pulley onto the shaft. The Suzuki pulley is mounted with a threaded nut and keeper.....so the pulley is tightened onto the shaft. Maybe with the Suzuki method of mounting with a highly torqued nut.....they didn't feel they needed more width. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Greg-E on 10/13/12 at 09:20:32 That's going to be some really hard metal, I think I might rough it down with a grinder first and then give the carbide cutting tools a try to take the final few hundredths off. Since it goes on with a nut, you should be able to fix small spacing errors with shims, better to not need them but looks like it should work. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by serenity3743 on 10/16/12 at 10:15:53 417A7760717D66607B737E61120 wrote:
Dave, thanks for locating this possibility. I guess I found the right Suzuki Versa by Bing search - presumably the off-road motorcycle, not the car! ;D Can you tell me what years the Suzuki Versa was (is?) produced? That would help me find the parts list. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Dave on 10/16/12 at 13:11:51 263027303B3C212C66626166550 wrote:
Dave, thanks for locating this possibility. I guess I found the right Suzuki Versa by Bing search - presumably the off-road motorcycle, not the car! ;D Can you tell me what years the Suzuki Versa was (is?) produced? That would help me find the parts list.[/quote] DL650, Here is a link to a 2007 parts page. Gear 29 and 9 are the 6th gear set that appears to be just like our 5th....but I have no idea about the teeth, shaft size or dimensions. http://www.hondaofflorence.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=432668&category=Motorcycles&make=SUZUKI&year=2007&fveh=10126 |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by verslagen1 on 10/16/12 at 13:22:08 I'm about to split a case open. If you send your gears, I can try them out. ;D |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Dave on 10/17/12 at 11:28:40 Hey.....Somebody in Michigan go check these out. Count teeth on the 6th gear set, count shaft splines, measure stuff.......tell us if the sixth gear set will fit in a Savage and make fifth gear a little taller? http://www.ebay.com/itm/S54-Suzuki-DL650-DL-650-V-Strom-VStrom-2004-Transmission-Shafts-w-Gears-Good-/310457678524?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4848b83abc&vxp=mtr |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by mjs3790225 on 10/17/12 at 13:17:29 I did the Kawasaki pulley mod. I like the result. Did a 3700 mile trip over the summer with it no problems. Makes highway and parking lot driving a whole lot better. I had a machine shop friend lathe it down to the size of the stock one. Like everyone else has said, the material is really hard, and it took my buddy several bits to cut it. Only con I've had is an increase in belt noise. Haven't figured out where its coming from yet. O_o |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Cavi Mike on 10/17/12 at 13:19:27 03383522333F242239313C23500 wrote:
I get the impression you think that as long as the bike is a 650 that it may be similar. Let me quell that right now. You just posted gears from a V-twin. The Savage is a single. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Dave on 10/17/12 at 13:37:41 7456415E7A5E5C52370 wrote:
I get the impression you think that as long as the bike is a 650 that it may be similar. Let me quell that right now. You just posted gears from a V-twin. The Savage is a single.[/quote] I will admit it is a long shot, and I am not basing it entirely on it being a 650 alone. I looked at the microfiche for several models and compared the drawings to find a gear set that was in the same location, had the fork groove and dogs in the same location and the same number of dogs meshing with the adjoining gear. I am only hoping that there is some attempt by Suzuki to standardize a few things like shaft size and spline count. Granted.......this is a long shot. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by ralfyguy on 10/17/12 at 16:22:06 Usually carbide lathe tools have a rounded corners on the cutting tip. If you grind that to a 45 degree flat bevel about a 1/16" wide and run the lathe At real high speed with slow and careful advance, it cuts nice and smooth and also resists breaking the tip from the hammering of the uneven surface. Just don't grind the bevel any wider than that, or the lateral forces are going to be too much and might rip the pulley out of the chuck. It's doable, but takes time and patience. Machining Titanium is much worse. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/17/12 at 18:29:04 7D6E636976687A760F0 wrote:
how do you know so much about this stuff? |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by ralfyguy on 10/17/12 at 19:07:28 152B203D303D30520 wrote:
how do you know so much about this stuff?[/quote] I'm a machinist by trade from Germany, immigrated to Oklahoma in 2000, currently not in the trade anymore. I obtained a Master's degree in industrial engineering in Germany. I used to design fully automatic production machines. A hard exhausting job with very long hours and hardly any free time and certainly no room for serious private relationships. Most of these machines were prototypes from scratch. My biggest project was a fully computer controlled, pneumatic cylinders operating machine that welded dashboards for the Mercedes S-Class together utilizing ultrasonic welding with Titanium Sonotrodes. They had to be machined out of billet Titanium, a wonderful material, but a horror for machining, especially threading and turning. When I took the job, there was just two barebones steel frames, one for left hand steering models, the other for right hand steering. The boss showed me the finished hand welded product and said that this machine is supposed to do that fully automatic without supervision in three months. Both sides! I had to do the entire design, machining of every single part, ordering the materials and valves and controls for the pneumatics, go and pick them up at the manufacturers, get the machines finished and running, program the computers, take the machines apart, put them on a truck, deliver to the Mercedes plant, put them back together and spend a week monitoring the function in the production line. Messing with Titanium is one of the toughest challenges, especially with sonotrodes that had to be tuned for a specific required (amplitude) frequency. That means in and out of the lathe or mill, shave another thousand of a millimeter off and test, test, test. Sometimes they were made from already hardened steel and you could not anneal them to make the soft for machining. This is where you get the hang of it. I gave up my career to marry a beautiful Lady from Oklahoma, and leave everything behind in Germany. :) |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Gyrobob on 10/17/12 at 19:25:26 Impressive!! Now we know the "go-to guy" for machining expertise! My grandparents were from Germany, and I was born in Ada, OK. Small world, eh? What career do you pursue in OK? |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by ralfyguy on 10/17/12 at 19:36:11 506E6578757875170 wrote:
Ada is just 60 miles from McAlester where I live, so yes the world IS small. :) I have left the trade as I wanted fixed hours from 7:30 - 5:00 to pursuit my goal to establish a family and have my own home that is paid for. I am a strong believer in either career or family, not both. I now work in sales at a Wholesale Supply. I do miss having a shop with all the tools though. I now have a work bench with a vise on it and a couple of files, wrenches and hammers. I miss the lathe the most. You can do amazing things with that. Now I have to find workarounds fro things I used to professionally, because of the lack of the tools, but this is a challenge in itself again. It's fun to improvise. :) |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Cavi Mike on 10/18/12 at 10:49:28 I wouldn't know what I'd do if I didn't have access to machines. I'd surely lose my mind. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/18/12 at 20:58:31 When I took the job, there was just two barebones steel frames, one for left hand steering models, the other for right hand steering. The boss showed me the finished hand welded product and said that this machine is supposed to do that fully automatic without supervision in three months. Both sides! I had to do the entire design, machining of every single part, ordering the materials and valves and controls for the pneumatics, go and pick them up at the manufacturers, get the machines finished and running, program the computers, take the machines apart, put them on a truck, deliver to the Mercedes plant, put them back together and spend a week monitoring the function in the production line. Dang! Tough assignment, short deadline. Yep,, ya done good, & walking away to have a family? Good call,,I never heard of one single event where someone was moaning on their death bed "Ohhh, I wish I had spent more time at work".. |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by LANCER on 10/19/12 at 03:43:23 It's good to know there is another LS650 dude in Oklahoma. I will be moving to Henryetta in the spring. :) |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by ralfyguy on 10/19/12 at 04:39:13 534C4A4D50576656665E4C400B390 wrote:
Well long hours just simply don't go well with a fulfilled family life. I traded the good pay for love. My wife isn't the materialistic kind at all. She rather spends more time with me than having more money. I am different now. OTHER I also felt bad to think about how many jobs my new double machine erased.... |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by ralfyguy on 10/19/12 at 04:41:11 2429262B2D3A7A7F480 wrote:
Are you serious? For real? That would be so cool man! We have GOT to meet! That isn't even an hour away from McAlester! |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/19/12 at 08:42:01 564548425D43515D240 wrote:
Well long hours just simply don't go well with a fulfilled family life. I traded the good pay for love. My wife isn't the materialistic kind at all. She rather spends more time with me than having more money. I am different now. OTHER I also felt bad to think about how many jobs my new double machine erased.... [/quote] My wife isn't the materialistic kind at all. She rather spends more time with me than having more money. Well,, I Had to work long hours, even when the kid was a baby, 70+ a week or we were just Broke, & we didnt live "The High Life" justa trailer house in West Tx, sittin on a rented lot, but, I was happy to do it.If you can be okay, live a decent life, ( by Okay & live a decent life I mean, not do without basics, have a home, eat well& have enough $$ to go play & Enjoy your family) Then youve done it right, IMO. Living to work & having a partner in order to survive is hardly the "Magic Formula" for a long & happy life. Lets not kid ourselves here , either. We've all seen pics of your wife. That she is not so materialistic as to be driven to "Have MOre" is such a blessing, on top of the fact that she is such a pretty lady. All that, to say this.. Congratulations on a life well lived & on having healthy goals. OTHER I also felt bad to think about how many jobs my new double machine erased.... Im sorry you feel that way, in a way, but, if you didnt,then you'd kinda be a heartless jerk & then you wouldnt be the kinda guy your wife would have wanted to marry.. IDK how people apply this one , but they do, in every case where something is done in the name of progress that causes pain & loss in the lives of others. Its world famous & used daily. If I hadnt done it, someone else would have. Well,, If everyone had the same principled approach, everyone would turn down the job.. right? Well,, maybe not. It comes down to "What is the right principled approach?" IN a free market society & in a creative, wealth producing society, is there some reason to believe we must hinder production technology in order to save jobs, or can we assume that because of increased production, there will be more profit that, in turn will later turn into more jobs in a new & different venture? & Yea,, someone was gonna build that.. But, dont worry,, I have it on good authority that You didnt build that..:) |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by Trippah on 10/19/12 at 08:46:55 Lancer - moving from the Mountains to the flatlands?? :-? |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by ralfyguy on 10/19/12 at 10:30:29 352A2C2B3631003000382A266D5F0 wrote:
Well long hours just simply don't go well with a fulfilled family life. I traded the good pay for love. My wife isn't the materialistic kind at all. She rather spends more time with me than having more money. I am different now. OTHER I also felt bad to think about how many jobs my new double machine erased.... [/quote] My wife isn't the materialistic kind at all. She rather spends more time with me than having more money. Well,, I Had to work long hours, even when the kid was a baby, 70+ a week or we were just Broke, & we didnt live "The High Life" justa trailer house in West Tx, sittin on a rented lot, but, I was happy to do it.If you can be okay, live a decent life, ( by Okay & live a decent life I mean, not do without basics, have a home, eat well& have enough $$ to go play & Enjoy your family) Then youve done it right, IMO. Living to work & having a partner in order to survive is hardly the "Magic Formula" for a long & happy life. Lets not kid ourselves here , either. We've all seen pics of your wife. That she is not so materialistic as to be driven to "Have MOre" is such a blessing, on top of the fact that she is such a pretty lady. All that, to say this.. Congratulations on a life well lived & on having healthy goals. OTHER I also felt bad to think about how many jobs my new double machine erased.... Im sorry you feel that way, in a way, but, if you didnt,then you'd kinda be a heartless jerk & then you wouldnt be the kinda guy your wife would have wanted to marry.. IDK how people apply this one , but they do, in every case where something is done in the name of progress that causes pain & loss in the lives of others. Its world famous & used daily. If I hadnt done it, someone else would have. Well,, If everyone had the same principled approach, everyone would turn down the job.. right? Well,, maybe not. It comes down to "What is the right principled approach?" IN a free market society & in a creative, wealth producing society, is there some reason to believe we must hinder production technology in order to save jobs, or can we assume that because of increased production, there will be more profit that, in turn will later turn into more jobs in a new & different venture? & Yea,, someone was gonna build that.. But, dont worry,, I have it on good authority that You didnt build that..:) [/quote] Wise words well spoken. Thank you :) |
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Title: Re: Taller gear possibilities Post by ralfyguy on 10/19/12 at 10:33:37 7D5B4059594841290 wrote:
It's not all flat here. We got mountains here about 30 miles east and there is the Talimena Skyline Drive. A fabulous stretch of road, 60 miles of curves and up and down right on top of the mountains. Lancer is from around here I'm pretty sure he's been there before. |
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