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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1349932749 Message started by DrunkenDwarf on 10/10/12 at 22:19:08 |
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Title: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/10/12 at 22:19:08 Removing the tires was going fine. Almost too easy. Until I tried to remove the brake disc from the front hub. 2 of the 4 bolts broke off. :( So much for doing it myself. -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by verslagen1 on 10/10/12 at 22:24:55 those are in there with locktite which is darn near permanent type. don't fool around with it 1st pen oil in the back side, and a small easy out. If you can't do it, take it to a machinist. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/10/12 at 22:38:27 Now I know. I was assuming I needed to remove the disc to put on the new tires. I should have asked first. -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by verslagen1 on 10/10/12 at 22:40:53 ah, hate when that happens, no, you don't. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/10/12 at 23:28:55 From the website: Quote:
Yikes! -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Serowbot on 10/11/12 at 00:42:00 I used an impact wrench... I must have got lucky... ....sounds like they must have broke at the rotor?... is there any threads left to grip on with a vise grip?... also,.. if you can,.. cut a slot in the stub, and use a flatblade in combination with vise grips... Tight grip,.. and, tap,..tap,.. tap,.. with a hammer on the end of the grip?... ... if not,... it's take it to a machine shop time... those guys are magic... (they make me feel stupid)... ;D... ... it's amazing what they can do... (and they do so love making me look stupid)... so much so, that they don't charge much for doing the impossible... just to show me how simple it was... Bless'ed are the machinists... :-?... Best luck,.. PS... getting to point of begging a machine shop to get you out of trouble,... is not a failure... It's a badge of honour... ...you stepped out there and pushed the DIY limits... ;)... .. if you do end up there... watch them... they know things... :-?... |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Cavi Mike on 10/11/12 at 00:57:11 Most likely they broke because he used an L-shaped hex-key. Am I correct? Cap screws shouldn't be removed with L-shaped keys because much of the force is actually applied the wrong way, cocking the head and jamming it into the part even harder - whether it's your handlebar clamp, your brake disc, whatever. You should always use something that can only turn the bolt. Something like a long T-handle, an impact wrench or a ratchet with a 10" or longer extension. L-shaped hex-keys are for R/C cars and bicycles, not automobiles and motorcycles. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Serowbot on 10/11/12 at 01:02:19 133126391D393B35500 wrote:
I never thought about it before... ..but, I have set of hex sockets, from HF, about $8.00 or so... They are heaven... spend the bucks... ;)... |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/11/12 at 02:19:49 I used a L shaped Allen, but, I put a 1/4" drive deep socket on it, with an extension, held a bind on it & spanked it with a body hammer, effectively making an impact. No heat,I had no idea,, |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/11/12 at 10:01:50 2F392E332B3E33285C0 wrote:
They broke off in the hub, there's nothing sticking out. I'll probably need a heat gun and easy outs. Or a machinist. 634156496D494B45200 wrote:
I used a hex socket, but that's good advice. Thanks. The first two I put the socket wrench on and they wouldn't budge, so I put a hammer to the end of the wrench to break them loose. The second two (the ones the broke) turned pretty easily to start with, so I didn't use the hammer on them. I wonder if they were already stressed. Is this something a generic motorcycle shop can take care of or should I be looking for a machinist? -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Cavi Mike on 10/11/12 at 10:05:58 504F494E53546555655D4F43083A0 wrote:
I have no idea what you're talking about but if you're hitting it with a hammer, once again you're putting side-forces against the bolt. It's wrong. Period. The point of the extension is not to make the bar longer and to give you more leverage. That's not an extension in the first place, that's a cheater bar. The point of the extension is to raise you off of the head of the screw which automatically makes you support the head of the ratchet with your other hand. In that position you're now exerting twisting forces against the bolt - no more side forces. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Pine on 10/11/12 at 10:47:45 4A5C4B564E5B564D390 wrote:
You have clue how right on spot you are.. and not just bikes/cars... guns. ( I buy crap guns adn try to fixem to resell)... sometimes it works.. often times not. I think I am UP to -$30 profit in 3 years... |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/11/12 at 11:30:46 4D6F78674367656B0E0 wrote:
I have no idea what you're talking about but if you're hitting it with a hammer, once again you're putting side-forces against the bolt. It's wrong. Period. The point of the extension is not to make the bar longer and to give you more leverage. That's not an extension in the first place, that's a cheater bar. The point of the extension is to raise you off of the head of the screw which automatically makes you support the head of the ratchet with your other hand. In that position you're now exerting twisting forces against the bolt - no more side forces.[/quote] I know what Im talking about, done it many, many times, Increased torque in some places just = busted bolt, I create the same type of twisting force an impact does, using a socket & extension as a cheater on the allen, putting some tension on it, then, striking it quickly with a light hammer where the end of the allen is in the socket, Im not creating side forces , just twisting & theyre applied with the hammer on top of the tension required to see the strain in the allen, just slightly, I have been a mechanic at the Western Company, working on big stuff, a copier repairman, working on delicate stuff, Ive fixed slide projectors, fax machines, shredders, cash registers, calculators, oil field pumps, done body repair on bent cars , changed the frames on 2 pickups & have the equivalent of an associates in electronics , courtesy USAF. I can cook, clean & sew & have designed a tool for catching a fish downhole on a well when 2 engineers failed to get it. HOnestly, I dont see me needing anyone telling me why what I did wont work, or is a bad way to go about it, But thatnk you for your input. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Cavi Mike on 10/11/12 at 20:01:26 I'm proud of you. Would you like a gold star? It's still wrong and it strips or breaks the heads off of bolts - as we've seen right here in this very thread. So congratulations on doing it the wrong way your entire life and completely ignoring the signs just like this guy did. Instead of taking a step back and rethinking his process after he broke the first bolt, he - just like yourself - proceeded to do the exact same thing and break a second bolt. Now, as I was saying: This is not an extension. This is a cheater bar and it's WRONG. http://cavimike.com/cheaterbar01.JPG THIS is an extension and this is how you properly remove caps screws to prevent the head from stripping or breaking. http://cavimike.com/cheaterbar02.JPG |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Boule’tard on 10/12/12 at 08:48:25 I had a difficult hex key like that on a Husky once.. cam sprocket was held on with loctited hex bolts. I never thought to use a ratchet, impact wrench, or heat. Luckily the thing didn't break on me, but while cleaning the blood off my hand I was thinking DANG I should have at least put gloves on. ::) Just my thoughts as I stopped by to delete a couple of crappy unhelpful messages. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Serowbot on 10/12/12 at 09:28:37 First off,... DD says he did use an allen head socket... second off,... I believe the same twisting forces are applied either way.... third,... that said,... I am able to get more downward force on a rachet at the same time as twisting... which is helpful... so, I still recommend the sockets... Lastly,.. those are some weird bolts.... they never loosen as they turn... It's like you are still trying to break them loose throughout the length of the treads... I've done two rotors,.. and every bolt was like that... Those bolts were too hot to hold when I got them out... So glad I have an impact wrench... ;)... |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Boule’tard on 10/12/12 at 11:01:34 Well see, you DID use heat to get it out.. sort of.. :D Which reminds me of another episode of hex bolt hell. So I'm trying to refurbish Paw Paw's old chipper/shredder machine, and there's a heavy steel disk with a blade bolted onto it with hex bolts, loctited in. Of course on the last bolt, the allen wrench balled out, and then broke in half after I welded it into the bolt. Then I welded a larger piece of steel to the head and grabbed the back end of the bolt with vice grips, to apply additional torque. So.. two heatings and gobs of straining on both ends, and it finally came out. Needless to say, the chipper now has new bolts done with BLUE loctite, not the red stuff. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Cavi Mike on 10/12/12 at 11:18:50 Just using a socket has nothing to do with it. The point is to get yourself away from the bolt so you're forced to support the other end of the wrench with your other hand. This prevents the unwanted force from being transferred to the bolt. That is why I said and I quote: 6644534C684C4E40250 wrote:
Using a ratchet with no extension is no different than using a hex key. You're using the bolt to prevent the tool from cocking sideways instead of your other hand. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Serowbot on 10/12/12 at 11:26:59 Never thought about that... good point... I don't even have a 10" extension,... but I do often use a 6"... Cavi,.. you're costing me money... >:(... May have to buy a couple of 10"'s... ;D... |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/14/12 at 22:03:33 Starting this project myself. So far the center drill bits I bought to make starter holes for the left handed drill bits are making slow work of the bolts. I screwed up a little more, I didn't have anything hard enough to make a good mark to keep the center bit in the center of the bolt, so I'm a bit lop sided. Will have to use a smaller left handed bit than I was originally planning. The adventure continues tomorrow night. -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/12 at 05:03:57 I hate to see you headed into that DD.. I wish you well,, but I think youre walking into a bear trap & that for $40.00 or less you could get out of trouble. The bolt broke because there is something in the threads, right? Whats gonna make the bolt turn easier after youve drilled it?If youre gonna wind up in a machine shop, Better to get there before its a mess. Unless youve got heat, you kinda need to be able to focus some heat on those bolts, dont you? To kill the Lock Tite? Id want a brazing tip.,A Mapp Gas canister with a torch head on it would get it plenty hot, but thats gonna heat up a larger area..I wouldnt want to just hold a big fire down on my brake disk/axle area. Setup for an ease out is crucial. Off center drilling, holes drilled at an angle, just makes it harder. I am all for doing things yourself, but there are times when its best to just call in reinforcements.If tooling to get a hole centered & square isnt on hand I would haul it & pay someone, Best of luck, man, either way. Keep us -posted. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/15/12 at 08:50:26 I've got a heat gun. Going to give it one shot. If it doesn't work I'll take it to a shop. -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/12 at 09:39:06 A $10.00 propane soldering tool from Lowes will lay more heat into a bolt than a heat gun. AND youll have a new tool.. Its one of my favorite soldering tools. I take the tip off & use the flame tip. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/16/12 at 12:33:17 Took it to the shop. 1 bolt came out fine. 1 bolt my pilot hole was too off center and we lost some threads. :( Shop guy said it would hold, just use about 3/4 torque. Your thoughts? If decide to replace the hub, what do I need? Part # - Description 54111-24B01 (http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/687/SKU/747118) - HUB, FRONT 08123C63027J000 (http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/687/SKU/63491) - B1 15X42X13 BEA 09180-15074 (http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/687/SKU/87392) - SPACER, HUB BEARING Can I get the bearings out of the current hub? Is that asking for another world of hurt? How much pain is relacing going to be? Learning is so painful. -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by Serowbot on 10/16/12 at 12:44:09 Them bolts go in tight... if you get it in without stripping completely,.. my bet is, it will stay... .. or,.. if it strips,...leave that bolt out... there's still plenty of bolts holding the disc... (I realize this advice should have an idiot warning)... but, that's prolly what I'd do... :-?... |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/16/12 at 14:52:39 Id put it together, use Blue Locktite, Check it periodically & if ya cant do that, then at least look at it every now & then.. Its gonna be okay, Ill bet your life on it..:) |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/16/12 at 21:17:30 Answered one of my own questions. Clymer's says you'll damage the bearings if you try to remove them. So new bearings it is. Has anyone built the bearing installation tool out of parts? Maybe I should start a new thread. Found this: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1302363211 -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/17/12 at 12:41:48 Would an electric impact wrench have prevented these from breaking? Found some used front wheels on ebay for about $100. That seems like the most reasonable solution. -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by verslagen1 on 10/17/12 at 12:52:11 These come on for $50 + shipping all the time. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/17/12 at 13:20:00 405344455A5751535807360 wrote:
Any 'gotchas' to look out for? -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by verslagen1 on 10/17/12 at 13:47:28 3A33363F253236570 wrote:
Any 'gotchas' to look out for? -D. Dwarf [/quote] Look out for somebody sellin' a wheel w/out a disc (maybe w/2 stripped out bolts) ;D It's rare to wear out the bearings, as long as it's got all the spokes and a disc, good chance it's ok. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by DrunkenDwarf on 10/17/12 at 14:44:09 3E2D3A3B24292F2D2679480 wrote:
Any 'gotchas' to look out for? -D. Dwarf [/quote] Look out for somebody sellin' a wheel w/out a disc (maybe w/2 stripped out bolts) ;D It's rare to wear out the bearings, as long as it's got all the spokes and a disc, good chance it's ok.[/quote] HEY! Mine only has 1 stripped out bolt. :-[ -D. Dwarf |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by ralfyguy on 10/17/12 at 15:57:20 434A4F465C4B4F2E0 wrote:
Usually with loctite fastened bolts applying heat helps. That stuff breaks down when heated. We used to work with that stuff and heat seemed to help. Impact wrench might work, but also shocks the bolt material and could have the effect of ripping it off right away. |
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Title: Re: 2 broken brake disc bolts - oops Post by rfw2003 on 10/17/12 at 16:05:21 When I changed one of the rotor bolts out for a magnetic headed bolt for my vapor speedo, I found that working the bolt in and out like you would a tap helped out greatly. Sure it took awhile to do it that way, but if you don't have heat available at the time it works. If I hadn't have loaned out my oxy/act outfit to a friend I would have used some heat, but it worked out well that way without the heat. R.F. |
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