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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1348621920 Message started by Mr.Orange on 09/25/12 at 18:12:00 |
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Title: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Mr.Orange on 09/25/12 at 18:12:00 my bike is acting like its having trouble getting gas. did petcock vac test, tried new vacuum line, the carb, fuel filter, and petcock filter are spotless. so now what? |
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Title: Re: acting up Post by ToesNose on 09/25/12 at 19:10:22 Is your throttle cable binding up? Since you ran through all the basic trouble shooting for gas delivery, that would be my next guess. :o |
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Title: Re: acting up Post by Mr.Orange on 09/25/12 at 20:16:49 I did install new bars and rerouted the cable. Would that make it feel like it was losing power unless I give it all the throttle |
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Title: Re: acting up Post by verslagen1 on 09/25/12 at 21:05:23 6 words describing your problem ain't gonna cut it. what year is your bike, how many miles, what have you done to it? no need to go anywhere but the engine. you say it's loosing power? not getting enough gas? How does it idle? when are you loosing power? |
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Title: Re: acting up Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/12 at 21:16:42 When is acting like that? Have you shut it off & drained the bowl to see if its full? Have you leaned over & watched the carb while you twist the gas? Describe " having a hard time getting gas".. |
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Title: Re: acting up Post by Oldfeller on 09/25/12 at 22:04:31 FIRST STEP, you gotta verify Mr. Orange did the Serowbot's Test correctly AND FIND OUT EXACTLY WHAT RESULTS HE GOT FROM DOING IT. "I did the petcock vac test ...." coming from a newbie generally means he didn't understand the test and/or he likely didn't do it correctly. There is no "petcock vac test" but we do have a Serowbot's Test that you can tell us all about how you go about doing it and what sort of results you got from doing it. Start talking Mr. Orange -- talk a lot, talk so much you convince us you actually did the tests you mentioned and talk to much you tell us the in detail the results you got from doing the tests. ================================== He mentions redoing his bars -- has he ever checked to see that his repositioned throttle actually opens up his carb butterfly all the way? He can do that by watching the cable unwind over the half circle -- does the unwinding throttle cable open the half circle as far as his fingers can open it? If not, he's screwed .... the throttle cable should open it just as far as his fingers can. ================================== Beware, helper people, he has taken his entire throttle and fuel system into ittly bitty pieces, including the carburetor. Lots & lots of room for oopsie in doing all that. |
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Title: Re: acting up Post by Serowbot on 09/25/12 at 22:25:16 Well,.. if the petcock and carb have been thoroughly tested,.. you must be getting gas... So,.. check for air... filter,.. filter boot, intake manifold... is something restricting, or leaking air?... Believe OF,.. there are no shortcuts to testing parts... a complete test, eliminates one possibility, but it must be a complete test and elimination... Petcock test,.. good vac line,.. good,.. carb,... good... ( a lot of possible's there)... Getting fuel,.. Air filter,... filter boot,.. intake manifold,... Getting air... Hope you found it... Because what's left, sucks... spark and compression... If you get past fuel and air,... (be sure....) We'll guide further... just pop back with results... There are also several safety cut-outs... .. but they don't usually mimic, fuel shortage... Don't give up... keep testing, be thorough,.. post results,.. and we'll follow and help... ;)... |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/12 at 22:42:50 He mentions redoing his bars -- has he ever checked to see that his repositioned throttle actually opens up his carb butterfly all the way? IDK,, But I asked,, |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Oldfeller on 09/25/12 at 22:55:08 Yep, you did ask. Orange has "done all the tests" and "fixed all the problem areas" but he still has a bike that is acting like it needs fuel. This one will be fun to watch as it develops along. I think he really hasn't "tested" and "fixed" as much as he thinks he has. But, we shall all see now won't we? Orange, did anyone mention you are supposed to LEAVE YOUR PETCOCK IN SEROWBOT TEST MODE THE ENTIRE TIME YOU ARE TROUBLE SHOOTING IT? Serowbot, you wanna tune your Tech Post words to that effect as we are having newbies "do the test" then immediately throw all the plumbing back into stock configuration and then find out 5 weeks later they weren't supposed to do that -- to temporarily eliminate all the vac petcock ill effect symptoms YOU HAVE TO LEAVE YOUR PETCOCK IN SEROWBOT TEST MODE DURING THE ENTIRE TIME YOU ARE TROUBLE SHOOTING IT. |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/12 at 08:45:10 Exactly when did this start? If it was running okay, then ya messed with the bars, & then it wasnt okay,, what would be the first thing to do? Its hard to help people if they dont explain, step by step, the timeline. KNowing what was done & when a problem surfaced can help solve a problem, \ Drop the whole story on us, just start over & tell it all. |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Mr.Orange on 09/26/12 at 20:37:21 ok here goes. 2001 with 20k miles. cone filter, jardine exhaust, mixture screw 2 1/2 turns out, cam chain tensioner modded. got on bike to go to work and when Im in 1rst giving it gas she acts like no gas is getting in. i have to really pull back on the throttle to get it to go. on the hwy she feels jerky like there is something blocking the fuel from completely getting to where it needs to go. even in N throttling up it spits and sputters unless i give it a lot of throttle. carb was clean, the petcock and fuel filter are debris free. I did replace bars with a set of broomsticks but cable is not in bind and the throttle moves the half circle as much as my finger will. carb bowl is full of fuel, vac line is fine (although there is a faint smell of gas in it) spark plug is light tan and free of smut. SEROWBOT TEST was completed...correctly.... and there was no change. anything else yall need to know???? |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/12 at 20:52:38 Is there anything you did 10 minutes before it changed? Did it suddenly do this or did it build up slowly? I would want to pull the air inlet off the carb & watch the slide move up when the giggle stick twists. |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by verslagen1 on 09/26/12 at 22:13:45 122D71102D3E31383A5F0 wrote:
any chance the cam is outta time? |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Oldfeller on 09/27/12 at 05:48:52 "vac line is fine (although there is a faint smell of gas in it) spark plug is light tan and free of smut. SEROWBOT TEST was completed...correctly.... and there was no change. anything else yall need to know????" You are still making the assumption that "doing" the Serowbot test just once is enough and you say it is "fine" although you got a sniff signal that your diaphragm is in the early stages of failing and is starting to weep a little gas down the vac line. During your current trouble shooting phase you want the vac petcock OUT OF PLAY as it can shift and confuse the symptoms of the other systems issues, "muddy up the water" if you prefer that phrase. Put it and LEAVE the bike in Serowbot Test mode until you have identified your trouble areas and have fixed it. Doing otherwise can test your sanity. ================ Next question: How long has your bike been modded with all the stuff you list? How many of these things are current mods? You do realize that all that stuff that you did when taken together lowers your system vac level considerably to the point where a vac petcock becomes really debatable as an serviceable fuel delivery system? :-/ But hey, you can keep that stock vacsucker on your heavily modified bike until the cows come home -- and we will watch you struggle and struggle and struggle with all the misc strange new "issues" that will come visit you in an ongoing fashion. Hells bells, you got people getting ready to send you in to check your cam timing. How much fun is that little piece of muddy water ??? And the one that comes after that will be even more fun. I own a 2002 with 20 grand total on the clock and my vac petcock failed at 14,000 miles with a symptom set about like yours, not long after I reduced my systems vac level with a full set of mods. So yeah, you sound right familiar to me. |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Mr.Orange on 09/27/12 at 19:15:38 only mod I myself added was the filter. so your saying get rid of stock petcock and check diaphragm? |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Charon on 09/27/12 at 20:55:14 Oldfeller does not believe that a vacuum petcock can ever work correctly, and recommends that they be switched out as soon as possible regardless of age or condition. With that in mind, it is indeed possible that vacuum petcocks can fail and their failure can produce odd symptoms. The faint smell of gas in the vacuum line is, to my mind, normal since that vacuum line connects to the intake manifold which has a mixture of gas and air present whenever the engine is running. If liquid gasoline is present in the vacuum line there is cause to worry. If the vacuum line is damaged (cracked, dry rotted, loose) air will leak into the manifold and upset the mixture, while the loss of vacuum may cause the petcock to pass less fuel. If the petcock diaphragm is damaged it will allow gasoline to pass into the vacuum line and manifold, also upsetting mixture. The Serobot test plugs the vacuum port at the manifold, eliminating any leakage problems, and forces the petcock open (PRIme position), eliminating any vacuum petcock problems. If the bike then runs correctly, it can be assumed the petcock or vacuum line was causing the original problems. If it still doesn't run right, the problem can be assumed to be fuel flow or carburetor. Hey, OF - did I get that right? |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/27/12 at 21:26:46 So, IF the petcock diaphragm is messed up, a guy could take a jug with a lid, put 2 pieces of tubing into the lid, & put a low vacuum on the petcock & these things should happen, Number One, Its gonna lose vacuum & Number B Gonna get gas in the jug. IDK how much vacuum stops being a "Test" & starts being enough to wreck the diaphragm. I wish someone would hook up a vac gauge,,strap it on the bars & ride & see what the vac is at speed.. |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Oldfeller on 09/27/12 at 21:29:01 18333A2934355B0 wrote:
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Routy on 09/28/12 at 03:13:04 Quote: I wish someone would hook up a vac gauge,,strap it on the bars & ride & see what the vac is at speed.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Long ago I did, and I posted the results several times. I remember having severe needle fluctuation problem, which I solved by inserting a very small (# drilled) orfice inline. And I do remember it showing very little (hardly audible) vacuum at WOT. Which is when I conceeded that a worn out engine could suffer fuel starvation at hi speeds. What I don't believe is that the diaphrams in these petcocks give any more problem than any other diaphram working in any other part of any other fuel system out there. Or at least I haven't seen any pics of deteriorated diaphram material. I have 2 old petcocks here, 1 is from an '85, and the diaphram material itself is not deteriorated at all. What happened to that one is......from all appearences, it suffered from a "sucked diaphram".....meaning the screws were not tight, and it ripped the diaphram out the corner of the screw hole. I don't know how common that is, but it made me check the screws for tightness on my own bike. The other one is supposedly a good one that was replaced out of pure "petcock paranoia" ! For OF...... While I do conceed that the vac PCs give more problems than I once thought, I also believe that "petcock paranoia" is still very rampant here, to the point of causing most of the Raptor change outs. Not surprising that most of the posts w/ fuel related problems anymore, have already "Raptorized" only because of "paranoia" |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by J C Stokes on 09/28/12 at 04:05:10 Wasn't there a post about some of these replacement non stock air filters blocking off part of the carb? |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Cavi Mike on 09/28/12 at 04:28:06 625D01605D4E41484A2F0 wrote:
What kind of filter? Wouldn't be the one I mentioned in this thread, would it? http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1347609265 |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Oldfeller on 09/28/12 at 05:51:09 404F554E525447454D4354260 wrote:
Well, petcock paranoia is also known as proactive replacement or as "preventive maintenance" in the industrial plant world. They replace early failure mode parts as soon as they show signs of impending failure during normal maintenance times so as to prevent unplanned downtime and loss of production. Take this thinking and apply it to the Savage. You have a complex vac petcock system that is known to fail (what, 6 known failure modes now with Lou's bubble gum rubberitis). The early failure symptoms are well understood (bike "running out of gas" when it has plenty of gas) and the replacement system is identified, inexpensive and the downsides of that system are well understood. When it first shows its ass why wouldn't you PM it? Your "downtime" on a Savage puts your butt at risk in traffic with the engine stopping on you -- who wants that? =========================== Also, please note that the folks who like the vac petcock system the most are running stock bikes with stock air boxes and stock restrictive air filters. If you are a performance mods person, consider that you have lowered your system vacuum level with your air filter mods and you have increased your gas flow requirements at the same time. This puts a double whammy on the vac petcock system so you can understand when I say "We are doing it to ourselves when we go after the last 10 hp that Suzuki wouldn't give us." A Raptor petcock should be considered a normal part of the performance mod package. |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Mr.Orange on 09/30/12 at 18:09:33 well outside if all the tests, I went ahead and replaced the spark plug and it still struggled. drained and got some fresh gas on top of cleaning the carb so well I wouldnt object to my children eating off it. fired her up and it is scary how well it runs now. 2 separate people outside this site suggested it could be water in my fuel. so bad gas was the culprit. suppose it could have been worse. |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/30/12 at 18:20:17 I gotta know how long before it started acting up was it that you put the gas in? How far did ya ride after adding that gas? |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by Oldfeller on 09/30/12 at 23:12:58 Justin, click on his name, go to the bottom of his personal information and read his last 25 posts. Check his dates between having rust in his gas tank and this current "unknown cause" issue. A "clockwork Orange" (every few days he's back with a new one, our Mr. Orange) 8/22 stripped header bolt 8/25 got upset at Justin and Cavi disagreeing on how to use threaded rod 9/04 moved his front fender 9/06 took apart his starter switch 9/12 broke his shifter rod 9/23 poured rust out of his gas tank (never did put in a pleated paper fuel filter from what I can see ??) 9/24 poured water out of his under the tank connector 9/26 started this current new thread with NO previous information shared. 10/01 discovered he has water in his gas .... hmmmm ?? Mr. Orange's Troubles is the title of your very own permanent thread now -- you will post all your new issues inside that one thread from now on, so people will KNOW WHAT YOUR PAST TROUBLES WERE. This will keep you from wasting folks time by your NOT telling them the background story up front and your habit of making them drag it out of you one little bit of information at a time. |
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Title: Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Post by mpescatori on 10/01/12 at 01:58:54 714E12734E5D525B593C0 wrote:
I was about to say "did you try the gas station?" :D, then I read the rest of the thread. I had similar problems with a previous thumper (not a Suzuki) which had points&condenser ignition. It turned out the points were set much too retarded (sparked at TDC or later - "retarded" is not an insult in these circumstances). If you fitted a cone filter and the bike reacted this way, it could well be the air/fuel mixture is now too lean. You should consider enriching the main jet by one, perhaps two steps further. This means that if you're riding with a #150 main jet, you should consider upgrading to a #152.5 or a #155. If you can't do that, no problem, go to the dealer and have their mechanics do it for you. Jets are .35 cents each, or thereabouts. If you think this is all too complicated... ...have you considered buying an EFI bike and leaving her stock ? :-? |
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