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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Counter-steering explained... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1348548866 Message started by Dave Sisk on 09/24/12 at 21:54:26 |
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Title: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/24/12 at 21:54:26 I explained this to someone else this way, so I figured I'd post it here. :) To get the bike to turn right: You don't actually lean the bike at speed...you roll it (like an airplane). To make the bike turn to the right, you have to roll it to the right. To roll the bike to the right, you have to move the wheels out from underneath the bike to the left...then the bike itself automatically rolls/leans to the right. To move the wheels out from under the bike to the left, you turn the steering wheel slightly and momentarily toward the left. This moves the wheels out from under the bike to the left, rolling the bike (ie. leaning it) right, which makes it turn right. To get the bike to turn left: To turn the bike left, you have to roll it to the left. To roll it to the left, you move the wheels out from under the bike to the right, which rolls (leans) the bike left, making it turn left. To end the turn, you turn the handle bars slightly and momentarily toward the inside of the turn...this moves the wheels of the bike back directly underneath the bike, causing it to stand upright and go straight. The key point here is that the bike doesn't actually lean...it rolls around it's horizontal axis (the horizontal axis being line you're looking down when riding down the road). The bike doesn't lean with the wheels in the same path...the wheels move out from under the bike to the opposite direction of the turn, which rotates the bike around the horizontal axis of travel. Turning the handle bars the opposite direction from the turn is what moves the wheels out from under the bike. Cheers, Dave |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Jeff Jopling on 09/24/12 at 22:06:55 I have found many times at a higher speed and sharper turn I have had some problems counter steering in enough time to make the turn (that is without drastically reducing speed) is this something that just comes with more riding experience or should this method work in all situations. Maybe I am turing the opposite direction just too long haha. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Cavi Mike on 09/24/12 at 22:40:44 The faster you're going, the wider your bike will need to go to make a turn - the bike has to counteract more force the faster you go. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by LouSiana on 09/24/12 at 23:16:10 All forces rise in a sqare factor as you double your speed. If you are going 30 mph and have to push and pull the handle bar to turn -with, let's say 3 lbs-, then you want to do the same route with double speed (60 mph) you have to push and pull the handle bar with forces of 9 lbs (=3² lbs). And also the centrifugal forces rise in a square factor. It is all caused by mass inertia. So it is not unusual to go to a turn and have to have braking a lot, because the speed in that turn is definetely limited to the total of weight, maximum allowed angle of the bike before footpegs get in audible contact to the surface and all this stuff. Still it is a matter of skill to go down that far the footpegs get scratching the road. It's only math's done by the brain (the brain always does, but in a linear way, not digital) and some goooooood experience which speed that specific turn will allow. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Kilgore Trout on 09/25/12 at 00:11:19 Jeff, as someone who is pretty new to motorcycling but who raced mountain bikes for years, I think what you are feeling is pretty normal. The important thing is not to get too hung up in the "turn left to go right, turn right to go left" paradox that everyone likes to throw around. If you can ride a bike, you instinctively know how to counter steer. You just have to adapt that instinct to a two-wheeled vehicle with a lot more mass. Dave's explanation is really good, but you have to think about what it means when you actually set up for a corner. 1) When you start to counter steer into a corner, your wheels swing out from under you away from the corner. 2) When you counter steer into a corner, it takes time and distance from the point where you initiate the turn by counter steering, to the point where the bike actually starts to turn. When you say you're having trouble counter steering in time to make a curve, it sounds to me like you are just turning in too late. In doing so, you are making your trajectory to the apex of the corner a lot sharper than it needs to be. Remember: if you start counter steering at the point where you need to be turning in to the apex, you are turning in too late. Counter steer so that your wheels swing out away from the corner so that they will then accelerate into the apex at your intended turn in point. I like that you use the term "roll" instead of "lean," Dave. I like to think about the center of my bike being at my hips, and all movement centers around that point. Hey, you're bike is a lady. Sometimes you gotta dance with her a little bit ;) |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Cavi Mike on 09/25/12 at 00:55:54 00272B247A7A727C4A0 wrote:
Unfortunately that couldn't be further from the truth. When you weigh 1/3 of the bike, your weight shifting only has so much effect and the faster you go, the less of an effect your weight has. After that, you need to be very proactive with the bars. If all you're doing is putting around town you may get away with the weight-shift technique but when it comes time to navigate a real curve at real speeds, you better be ready to force those bars the wrong way or you're going off the road. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by ToesNose on 09/25/12 at 04:30:42 @Jeff- Do you look through your turns? Turn just your head, not your shoulders, this will go a long way in making your turns smoother till you get more experience in the saddle ;) |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Gyrobob on 09/25/12 at 05:07:22 Countersteering needs no explanation. You can not not do it. It you lean down into a turn slowly, you don't countersteer very much. If you want to yank the bike down into a turn rapidly, you WILL countersteer a lot. You don't have to think about it. Just fuggedabowdid. For many millions of folks around the planet, no one ever mentioned to them about countersteering, and they operate their scooters and motorcycles billions of miles per day with no knowledge of countersteering at all. It is as inherent in operating a two-wheeled vehicle as is putting one foot in front the other for a two-legged mammal. No one ever needed to tell you to stick out one foot, now balance on that foot while you bring the other foot up past the first foot and now balance on that other foot. Now that you have that done, bring the first foot up forward again past the second foot,.......... You don't think about what each foot is doing when you are walking. It's the same with countersteering. You don't think about it. it just happens. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Gyrobob on 09/25/12 at 05:11:00 Here's another analogy. You are driving along in your cage. You feel like being a cool guy today, so you are holding the steering wheel with only one hand at the bottom of the wheel. You want to turn left. Do you have to analyze the situation, or do you just subconsciously move your hand to the right? |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/12 at 06:06:39 On a Yamaha RD400, took a high speed run at a corner on a road that had a 60 MPH limit. First pass, inside lane, right turn, On Camber, went thru pretty hot, cant remember how fast now, but it was well over 60. Now,at this time, all the experience I had was dirt bikes & bicycles & Id never even owned a motorcycle, so, I hade very little experience,. That first turn felt good, so, I went back at it a little hotter, left turn now, outside lane of a 2 lane, the crown in the road made it off camber. I could not get it leaned over & was about to go off into the woods, so, I decided I would simply steer it thru the turn. I started to turn the bars left & it started standing up. I was closing fast on a fatal crash & I knew it. Since trying to drive it left wasnt gonna work, I only had one more thing to try. Force the bike down by turning right. I am here to type this, because that worked. When I got thru the turn & on the straight, I stopped as quickly as I could & put the stand down right in the middle of that road & got off & shook,, In Louisiana, you go offroad at any kind of speed & youre hitting a tree,, & thats either a fatality or worse. I was running at close to 100, no helmet( a helmet woulda just made identification easier).. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave on 09/25/12 at 06:19:20 744A415C515C51330 wrote:
I forget where I first heard (read) of this concept.....but I do remember the question was something like: "When you come to a right hand corner on your motorcycle.....you: 1) Turn right. 2) Turn left. 3) Lean right. 4) Lean left. Well I got the answer wrong, as I had never thought about it and just rode out of instinct. I could not imagine the concept of turning left to go right. I don't know if the use of the word "countersteer" is confusing or what causes the fueds over what is going on. I have since discovered that if I am going straight down the highway and I push gently on the the left handlebar......the bike leans over and goes left.....and if during that turn I pull on the left handlebar.....the bike stands back up. If anyone that doesn't believe that this happens would just give this simple test a try.....I believe they would understand that they are intinctively doing this without thought. Leaning, shifting weight on footpegs, etc. can have some influence - but most of the turning is done by putting pressure on the bars and allowing the bike to do the work. My scrawny 156 pound body had very little affect on the 800 pound Harley I rented this summer - and the direction that I pushed or pulled on the handlebars is what made the bike go around corners and stand back up when exiting the corner. For those disbelievers.......just try this next time you are riding. Find a straight stretch of road and take your left hand off the bars (you can leave your right hand on the throttle grip and maintain your speed).....then take your left index finger and push lightly forward on the left handlebar. The bike is going to turn to the left even though you are pushing the bar the other direction. Maybe this is what confuses people......you may not be steering to the right.....but you are certainly putting pressure on the bars in that direction. When the bike is leaning over and making the left turn.....if you pull on the left handlebar....the bike will then stand up and return to the straight line. If you clear your head and actually feel what you are doing while turning.....you will feel that you are pushing on the bars in the opposite direction that the bike actually goes. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by PerrydaSavage on 09/25/12 at 06:26:50 We teach countersteering as "push steering" at the MTP I part-time Instruct with and try not to get into any of the cool physics involved when explaining the concept to students. Basically, we describe it thus; a motorcycle is a single-track vehicle and so at any speeds above a walking pace, to steer it thru a turn or to swerve around an obstacle, you push (apply pressure) on the left handlebar to go left and push on the right handlebar to go right. No more explanation required (usually) ... this is then demonstrated to the students by Instructors running a couple of training Bikes thru a slalom course, swinging the Bikes wide around the cones to show the effect of the neccessary lean (bank) initiated by the "push" on the appropriate handlebar ... |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/25/12 at 07:03:12 Wow...I had no idea this post would create so much (good) discussion. I agree the simply way to think of it is "push right turn right...push left turn left". I think lots of people countersteer instinctively without even realizing it. I think for newbies, it's really good to understand the whole countersteer concept though because a newbie may not *have* those instincts yet. Any way you slice it, it's good to know and practice. It's much harder to swerve around a big unexpected pot hole by putting weight on one of the footpegs...if you consciously know how to countersteer, it's much easier to just flick the bike around an obstacle. I'm a newbie too (from the spring), so particularly obstacle avoidance is just starting to become second-nature to me. ;) I like the "dances with bikes" phrase, btw. ;D Cheers! Dave |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/25/12 at 07:03:52 68676464686D72020 wrote:
Start earlier! ;) Since the wheels have to swing out from under the bike and the bike has to roll along it's axis of travel, it's a few extra milliseconds before it actually starts to turn. I *think* starting the whole she-bang earlier will get you a smoother turn. You're not counter-steering too long...you are counter-steering too late. Dave |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/25/12 at 07:10:38 625C574A474A47250 wrote:
Yes, but only because it's already second-nature. Maybe a better analogy is backing a trailer up. ;D Until you've gotten a lot of practice at it, it takes some conscious thought to point the trailer the right direction in reverse...you have to turn the steering wheel the opposite way, and it's not intuitive the first several times you do it. Counter-steering a bike is already second-nature for most riders...but not for some of us newbies. We have to consciously practice it, THEN it becomes second-nature and automatic. Dave |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Jeff Jopling on 09/25/12 at 07:53:04 Thanks for the explanation guys. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Gyrobob on 09/25/12 at 08:47:48 52776073457F657D160 wrote:
Yes, but only because it's already second-nature. Maybe a better analogy is backing a trailer up. ;D Until you've gotten a lot of practice at it, it takes some conscious thought to point the trailer the right direction in reverse...you have to turn the steering wheel the opposite way, and it's not intuitive the first several times you do it. Counter-steering a bike is already second-nature for most riders...but not for some of us newbies. We have to consciously practice it, THEN it becomes second-nature and automatic. Dave[/quote] Wrong. Yes it is second nature to move your hand at the bottom of the steering wheel to the right to turn the wheel to the left. Same with countersteering. Most folks operating two-wheelers on this planet have never ever thought about countersteering but they do just fine, and lots of them race around like maniacs, dragging footpegs and just being hooligans in general. Yet, they countersteer all the time without knowing anything about it. Backing a trailer up is an invalid analogy because the steering controls in that situation require constant analysis, everything is backwards. Turn the wheel to the right to move the ass end of the car to the right to move the nose of the trailer to the right to move the ass end of the trailer to the left to turn the whole shebang left. This has nothing to do with countersteering because countersteering happens every single time you do anything other than go straight. "Counter-steering a bike is already second-nature for most riders" It is second nature for anyone who does not crash in the first ten feet of their first motorcycle ride. If they are balancing the bike (not falling over) they ARE countersteering. That is the only way you can keep the tires underneath the CG of the bike. "Counter-steering a bike is already second-nature for most riders...but not for some of us newbies. We have to consciously practice it, THEN it becomes second-nature and automatic." This statement shows you still do not understand. OR,.. maybe you are just meaning something else! Maybe what you mean is to deliberately yank on the handlebar in one direction to see if the bike tilts in the other. I dunno. One way to get screwed up (maybe even hurt yourself) when riding around pondering countersteering is to ponder countersteering while you are riding around. IOW, if you think about something you do instinctively, you might mess up the instinctive thought. Remember the scene in "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" when Strother Martin tells Robert Redford to demonstrate whether or not he can shoot a gun? Here's another thought,... Do you actually think that if you are out riding around, and you happen to forget about countersteering for a while, that you are NOT countersteering as you are riding around? Oh,.. and one more question,.. How do you do this? "We have to consciously practice it, THEN it becomes second-nature and automatic." I'm curious. After 52 years and several hundred thousand miles of bike riding, I'd like to think I could still learn some new stuff. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Kilgore Trout on 09/25/12 at 09:06:52 Quote:
Actually, Mike, if you go back and look at my message, you'll find that at no point did I make any mention of shifting one's weight around to initiate a turn. What I did say is that if you know how to ride a bicycle, you already know how to counter steer. You steer a bicycle properly by counter steering, not by throwing your weight around. In fact, anyone who's ever ridden a mountain bike on the loose stuff knows that there's no quicker way to go down than to get your center of mass all out of kilter with your lean angle. I stand by my original statements, which are: 1) If one knows how to ride a bicycle and/or has ridden a motorcycle in anything other than a straight line going faster than a couple mph, one has already demonstrated the ability to counter steer 2) Steering a motorcycle is fundamentally similar to steering a bicycle. One only has to make some adjustments, usually in the timing/location of the turn-in point, to account for the larger mass of the motorcycle and the higher speed that a motorcycle typically travels at. We're never going to get better at it by talking about it, guys. Why don't we just go ride and give it a rest? |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/25/12 at 09:22:09 Quote:
I have to disagree. When you turn the bike at low speed, you don't counter-steer...you turn the handlebars the same direction as the turn. I've ridden more than 10 feet at 5-10mph without crashing and I didn't counter-steer to turn the bike. ;) At a higher-speed (depending on the mass of the bike and rider), then you have to counter-steer. But hey, this isn't worth debating...you ride your way and I'll ride my way. ;) Dave |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave on 09/25/12 at 09:34:56 5F7A6D7E487268701B0 wrote:
Well.....at low speed I agree.....if the wheels aren't spinning the steering input goes in the direction the bike is falling. I think this is one of the things that makes learning to ride a bicycle hard. It is learning how to transition between steering toward the lean at low speeds.....and at higher speeds the steering input controls the lean. I suppose most of us can remember that wild handlebar thrashing that went on when we were learning to ride our first bicycle! On my trials bike the direction of travel and turning is completely controlled by leaning the bike, pressure on the footpegs, and balance.......and for those that are really good by hopping the front or rear wheel around. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Gyrobob on 09/25/12 at 09:55:19 I have to disagree. When you turn the bike at low speed, you don't counter-steer...you turn the handlebars the same direction as the turn. Wrong. To start the turn you countersteer. You just don't understand this yet. Yes, when established in a turn, the bars are slightly turned in the direction of the turn, but when you want to stop turning what do you do? Do you tweak the bars in the direction of the turn, or do you turn away from the turn. DON'T THINK ABOUT IT! You'll kill yourself. The part you seem to have trouble grasping is how to enter or exit a turn. It doesn't matter, though, if you can grasp it or not. If you have crashed yet, you are countersteering properly to enter and exit the turns. If you can simply keep the bike upright in a straight line, you are countersteering because if the bike leans to the left, without even thinking about it, you tweak the bars to the left which immediately starts the bike leaning to the right. Maybe we have different definitions of countersteering. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/25/12 at 10:25:14 Quote:
At a low speed, no you do not. Unless physics works different in your little world than it does in the rest of the universe. ;) Quote:
Ya think? Let's leave it that, shall we? Dave |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by LouSiana on 09/25/12 at 10:33:29 Riding at very low speed does not mean there would be different physics. It is still the same. Maybe someone feels it really is different to usual speeds but it is not. It's still the same, did I mention this already? Maybe one uses the unsafe state, waits until the bike wants to fall to the right direction and keeps it nearly upright then by turning the handlebar in the direcion of the curve. But only to keep the bike and himself from falling..... This also is countersteering for all two-wheelers in line. Until he gets the opportunity to follow the bike in the curve it just wants to (and the rider either!) then it just feels like not counter steering. The moments before that happens it really is countersteering. Depending of the bike's construction (weight, speed, CoG, fork angles ) you sometimes have to back the bike in the curve because it wants to fall inside. This has nothing to do with initiating a turn by countersteering (if made consciously or instinctively does not matter). And that's the fact most kids are struggling on when they going to learn to ride a bicycle. The fewest are told about countersteering, they just have to learn on try and error, lots of plaster applied and some weeping. But, I should not tell anything about it, I am riding a sidecar, haa haa :D (actually as well an usual Savage and a bicycle. My brain is able to handle all that stuff, as long as God blesses me) |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Greg on 09/25/12 at 10:39:15 042136251329332B400 wrote:
Just how I was taught many moons ago. After a few miles you don't need to remember, it just happens. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by PerrydaSavage on 09/25/12 at 11:43:21 On the MTP that I Instruct with, we teach during slow speed manuvers (i.e. walking pace or slower with cllutch kept in friction zone) you turn the handlebars in the direction you want to point the bike ... left turn crank bars over to the left & vice versa. This past weekend when coming home on my Bike I decided to experiment with countersteering. Rounding a slight left sweeper and taking my left hand off the bar, I pulled on the right bar with my right hand ... it had the same effect as pushing on the left bar and pulled the front wheel slightly off camber to the right which initiated a left lean causing the Bike to turn left! I don't advocate a newb doing this though ... but the physics is rather cool! ;) |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Gyrobob on 09/25/12 at 13:06:38 At a low speed, no you do not. Unless physics works different in your little world than it does in the rest of the universe. ;) Wrong. If you are not moving the point where the tires contact the earth, and keeping that point underneath the CG of the motorcycle, you will fall over. This is called countersteering. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by RidgeRunner13 on 09/25/12 at 13:16:54 This whole thread reminds me of something my Daddy used to say: I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you! 8-) |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by CalisOsin on 09/25/12 at 13:17:12 I don't want to join the debate, but Perry - I got those same lessons in my safety course. Another thing they did to demonstrate push-to-turn was to have you sit on the bike facing forward. They would put one foot on either side of the front wheel to lock it in place, and then have you put your feet on the pegs and push on either side of the bars. You realize pretty quick that when you push left, you go left. It was a cool demonstration that definitely helped a few people to feel the physics safely, even if they couldn't understand it. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/25/12 at 13:30:48 Quote:
No, it's not. That's not what we're even talking about. That's not called "counter-steering"...that's called "balancing". ;D Dave |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by ToesNose on 09/25/12 at 13:33:40 Gyroscopic effects which cause the need for counter- steering on two wheeled vehicles kick in at 12Mph. ;) |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Spamy on 09/25/12 at 13:34:59 Just turn like this guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCGaQMgkzw8 |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/25/12 at 13:36:50 I think teaching a kid to ride a bicycle has some good examples in it, but the thing is that there subtle. It doesn't take much counter-steering to make a bicycle roll (lean) and turn...it doesn't have much mass, compared to a 300+ lb motorcycle. ;) I think part of why some people don't realize they are counter-steering is because of learning the skill on a bicycle...since it takes much less force, you just don't realize it. In fact, we usually tell a kid "lean to turn", right? If you watch a kid lean on a bicycle, what auto-magically happens? They unintentionally turn the handlebars slightly to the left when they lean their body right, and vice versa. True? ;D I think counter-steering is much more subtle on a bicycle, but it's definitely still happening. Just some thoughts. ;) Dave |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/25/12 at 13:39:53 163524283C450 wrote:
I'm glad our license tests in the US aren't that difficult! ;D Dave |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by verslagen1 on 09/25/12 at 13:41:48 644156457349534B200 wrote:
What we have here is a failure to communicate! ;D You're both leaving a few conditional statements left unsaid. Going straight, CG over points of contact = balance Turning, CG over points of contact = asphalt facial |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/25/12 at 13:42:52 475443425D5056545F00310 wrote:
;D |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by CalisOsin on 09/25/12 at 13:45:47 Here is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering) (though I know they aren't always right). "At low speeds At low speeds countersteering is equally necessary, but the countersteering is then so subtle that it is hidden by the continuous corrections that are made in balancing the bike, often falling below a just noticeable difference or threshold of perception of the rider. Countersteering at low speed may be further concealed by the ensuing much larger steering angle possible in the direction of the turn." So like I was saying before, with the demo the instructors gave, you always countersteer, even at a dead stop. The issue is that because it is low speed, you are having to balance the bike(i.e. you aren't going fast enough to keep that angle on the front wheel so you steer into the turn to balance) but either way, you countersteer even at low speeds. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Greg on 09/25/12 at 14:22:59 7152434F5B220 wrote:
Now I understand why the young Yakuza in America ride their scooters so well... |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Gyrobob on 09/25/12 at 20:45:53 496B666379457963640A0 wrote:
You and I may be the only ones around here that understand this. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Dave Sisk on 09/25/12 at 21:00:13 Quote:
You are correct. The rest of us are total dumb-a$$e$ who couldn't possibly understand anything so esoteric. Thank you so much for gracing all of us with your highly intelligent presence and omniscient understanding. I for one could not sleep tonight if I did not know that a very subtle and undetectable amount of counter-steering is required at even a whopping 1mph. Thank you so very much for clearing that up! You are indeed correct, and that is highly useful information that I will rely on to keep me from having fatal crashes every time I find myself zooming along at 1mph. ;D Dave OF ..... now now boys, play nice or we'll countersteer your topic on over to the deep hole where the stinky stuff goes. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Cavi Mike on 09/25/12 at 22:48:53 I can't believe you guys are still on about this. Just ask someone who races motorcycles and they'll tell you how it works. You can always tell the guys that don't understand counter-steering because every time they come up on a hard curve, they slow way the heck down. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Serowbot on 09/25/12 at 23:05:44 I saw a video of a guy steering using strings once... pull the left bar, go right... ... pull the right bar, go left... If you watch closely,... Lean right,.. the bars will shift to the left to rebalance,... and you'll go right... So,.. the argument isn't "Countersteerer's vs leaners"... It's about, those that initiate countersteer, with their arms vs their ass... Either one, initiates countersteer... Arms are faster... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by PerrydaSavage on 09/26/12 at 03:31:12 The counersteering process may very well be operating during slow-speed (walking pace) maneuvers on a motorcycle, but is barely perceptable ... we still instruct students to turn the bars in the direction in the direction they want to go during the slow-speed exercises and this works ... the physics involved are interesting for sure, but newbs generally do not want or need to clutter their brains with this info to learn how to steer a motorcycle! Same goes for higher speed turns during which the physics of coutersteering is much more perceptable ... we have found that Students really do not want or need a detailed explanation of the forces involved in order to learn how to do it, other than the oft repeated phrase, "push left, go left. push right, go right" |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by Gyrobob on 09/26/12 at 03:49:43 I think I now see part of the problem with this discussion. Some think countersteering happens only when you yank (or push) the bars one way to get the bike to rapidly tilt the other way. This is, in fact, countersteering. Deliberate countersteering. So, their definition of countersteering is: forcefully moving the handlebars one way to make a bike tilt the other way. Some folks who understand deliberate countersteering don't realize the bars are always being manipulated back and forth to balance the bike, anyway, whether you are in a turn or not. Some folks, like me, see countersteering as mere physics, whether done intentionally or not. Anytime the contact patches on the tires pull the bottom of the bike one way to make the bike tilt for natural balancing (just riding along in a straight line), or balancing in a turn, or getting leaned down in a turn in a hurry, THAT is countersteering. Simply a result of physics,... either done subconsciously or deliberately. So, I could care less how much or little anyone restricts or expands their definition of countersteering. -- I know deep in my heart, it is simply physics, and that no one can ride a motorcycle without the bottom of the bike being moved around for balancing and/or rapid maneuvering. -- If anyone wants to think that countersteering occurs only when the bars are deliberately yanked to get the bike to hunker down in a turn, that is just wonderfully fine with me. Maybe we could have own expanded definition of countersteering, done in two parts: -- Deliberate countersteering. Yank the bars one way to get the bike to rapidly lean the other, e.g., turn the bars to the right to get the bike to lean left. -- Inherent countersteering. Moving the bars around simply to keep from crashing. --- Moving the bars back and forth tiny amounts to keep the CG of the bike over the contact patches of the tires while riding in a straight line, usually done subconsciously. --- Moving the bars back and forth in a turn while they are turned a bit off of center in the direction of the turn to keep the bike steady and balanced in a turn. it's all just countersteering to me. |
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Title: Re: Counter-steering explained... Post by PerrydaSavage on 09/26/12 at 04:48:50 When teaching newbs, we don't tend to use the term "counter steering" as some "over-thinking" types amongst Student Motorcyclsts will interpret the concept as being counter intuitave ... which can be confusing for them ... the term "push steering" seems to work much better for the explaination part of the lesson. |
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