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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Dave's O2 Sensor Install /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1348491882 Message started by Dave on 09/24/12 at 06:04:42 |
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Title: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 09/24/12 at 06:04:42 I was able to modify a used pipe and install a narrow band Oxygen Sensor this weekend. I chose to mount the Sensor close to the head as that is where they are located on my wife's Honda and on my Vibe. It is in plain sight - but this is a temporary pipe to be used only while I am getting the jetting sorted out. I have only ridden up to the gas station and back, and this is what I have found so far: 1) The gauge is useless in sunlight......the bright sun makes the gauge unreadable. 2) The narrow gauge sensor has a very limited range, and the bars jump around quicky. The sensor can tell if the engine is at the desired economy setting of 14.7 pounds air to 1 pound of fuel - but beyond that it can only tell if the mixture is rich or lean. It cannot display a numeric value above or below 14.7. 3) With my current jetting the engine runs rich at most throttle settings - but I don't know how rich. I believe I am going to have to start with the main and drop jet sizes until it shows lean - then go back up one jet size. Then repeat this process for the needle and pilot jets. 4) Currently the engine runs lean at the throttle openings just before 1/4 open. As you gently accelerate away from a STOP and work up through the gears at a mild throttle setting - the engine is lean and you can feel the engine surging under the lean mixture. If you open the throttle anything more than 1/4 throttle it accelerates well and the O2 sensor moves out of the lean condition. When I last had the carb apart I set the float level at the lowest end of the range in the manual, as the bike has always started without the choke being on. I will raise the float a bit and see if that helps with the low speed lean condition. Here are some pictures of the installed system. I used the Narrow Guage system that I had bought in 1997 when I used it to jet a car I was building - so I did not need to buy a new kit. I used High Temp black paint on the exhaust and I will let you know how it holds up. The silver spots are the Never Sieze that blew off the O2 sensor as it got hot. http://i46.tinypic.com/2z403mq.jpg http://i49.tinypic.com/fax9gj.jpg http://i46.tinypic.com/28tkenq.jpg |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/12 at 06:54:41 Build a paper tube to shield the gauge. Or, test at nite! |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 09/24/12 at 07:08:03 455A5C5B4641704070485A561D2F0 wrote:
The tube is a good idea........Charmin or Bounty? I think with gauge will be visible in daylight - as long as it is not direct sun. The guage glass is glossy and reflective and when I was headed into the sun.....I could see my full face helmet reflecting in the guage. If you look at the photo you can see the camera reflecting in the glass. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Charon on 09/24/12 at 07:10:51 This is all rumor and hearsay, so believe it or not as you see fit. The EPA tests are not all-inclusive of all engine operating conditions. The EPA puts the vehicle through a carefully defined "drive test" at certain speeds for certain distances. It is never run wide open, nor at high power. Since motorcycles in general have higher power-to-weight ratios than cars, they are operated at lower throttle openings to run at the prescribed speeds. Motorcycle makers are very aware of the test procedures. Makers jetted carburetors to run lean at idle and low power, where the motorcycles are tested. They jetted the bikes to run properly (slightly rich) at high power where the EPA does not test. (I use "low power" for power up to 1/3 rated; "medium power" from 1/3 to 2/3 rated; and "high power" for power from 2/3 to full power. This is my arbitrary choice.) Naturally, stories abound that carburetors are way too lean from the factory, but the "rest of the story" seems to be missed. Part of the issue is that most motorcycles are operated at small throttle openings most of the time, so they usually run in the lean regions of jetting. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/12 at 07:21:02 Would a small circle of window tint help? If you think it mite, Id bet you could get a dab for free from a window tint place, or maybe a buck .. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Halvor on 09/24/12 at 12:17:17 Hello o2 fellow. I use a gauge with numbers wich is very visible in sunlight. I have posted a photo of it in my thread. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 09/24/12 at 17:29:41 5B727F657C61130 wrote:
I have been following your thread....you beat me by a few weeks. I have not yet been able to ride it and get to the actual tuning - the install and yard work used up last weekend. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 09/28/12 at 07:14:33 In the first round of testing I had: 152.5 Main, 55 Pilot, 3 Washers under the needle, and the air screw was at 1-1/4 turns out on the screw to run well at idle. I had lowered the float to 29 mm as the engine has always started without the choke. The O2 sensor showed the engine was rich everywhere except when accelerating at 1/4 thottle or less where the engine ran very lean and surged. When lightly accelerating with throttle settings below 1/4....the O2 sensor showed the engine was lean and the bike would surge and did not run smoothly. If you added any throttle over 1/4 the bike pulls strong and smoothly. For the second round I installed a 150 main, 52.5 Pilot, and raised the float to the maximum factory setting of 27mm. The idle gas screw is out just short of 2 turns for the ideal mixture as shown by the O2 meter. This morning on the way to work the engine ran with a good mixture reading on the O2 gauge in the 1/4 to full throttle range - it runs just a bit above the middle (green) bars that shows the ideal mixture, and it pulls smoothly. At crusing speeds and throttle settings between 1/8-1/4 at speeds above 40 the mixture is very good and in the green. The engine still runs very lean and surges from 1/8 -1/4 throttle when lightly accelerating through the gears at speeds below 50. The gauge will show in the green while cruising - then if you lightly roll on the throttle up to 1/4 the gauge drops into the lean zone and you can feel the engine surging.....if you roll a bit more throttle on and get above 1/4 throttle it pulls smoothly and the gauge goes up into the green. I need to get some more fuel into the system at throttle settings between 1/8-1/4 throttle. The info I can find says the Pilot Jet controls this range - and that the slide needle is more involved in the 1/4 to 3/4 throttle range. I might try opening up the mixture screw a bit - but that will make the idle too rich. I could also try going back to the 55 pilot....however the engine still had the surging with the 55 and it showed rich during normal cruising with this jet. Anybody have a suggestion on how to richen up the 1/8 to 1/4 throttle mixture? I may be able to get a tiny bit more height in the float level - but I am at the maximum setting the manual allows. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/12 at 07:50:46 take a washer or 2 from the needle jet. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 09/28/12 at 07:55:58 7F6C7B7A65686E6C6738090 wrote:
Thanks - I will give that a try and see what happens. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by verslagen1 on 09/28/12 at 08:28:41 Once you set the pilot and main jets, the only other adjustment you have is the "white spacer" if you reduce the spacer you raise the needle, richening the dead spot. Which may be bottomed out in the needle jet. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 09/28/12 at 14:46:47 Third try is a charm.....well.....sort of. I took the carb apart and removed two of the three washers on top of the slide needle, and just left one. The bike no longer has the flat spot between 1/8-1/4 throttle - but it has become too rich everywhere. The O2 gauge shows it is rich, and it does not run as well when you are rolling off the throttle and it surges when slowing down. First thing tomorrow morning I will put one washer back in. I am pleased with how this simple narrow band 02 sensor is working. It may not be as flexible as a Wide Band sensor and gauge - but it does let you know how the jetting changes you have made affect the engine. Without the gauge you would know that the engine stumbles or surges.....but you would not know easily if the problem was caused by being too rich or too lean....the gauge clears that up and tells you where you can improve things. If you were tuning a race bike and looking for maximum power then a wide band O2 gauge might be worth the extra money....but I already had this one from a previous project and thought I would give it a try. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Charon on 09/28/12 at 18:13:10 Once you get it set the way you like it, it might be interesting - even informative - to change the exhaust system in some way and see what happens. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by verslagen1 on 09/29/12 at 00:22:29 couple of easy ways to lean her up a bit remove the snorkle remove the air box door. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 09/29/12 at 04:02:44 755E57445958360 wrote:
I have a SuperTrapp on in now and it has 8 discs on it. I have 6 more discs and will add them and see what happens. I also have a Dyna that I can put on. The Supertrapp is just a little bit louder than I would like. It is not obnoxious......but it is not a quiet muffler. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 09/29/12 at 13:05:09 Well I added 6 discs to the existing 8 discs........Waaaay too loud! It didn't change the O2 readings at all. I put the SuperTrapp back to the 8 discs, then lowered the float setting just a bit. I was going to try a 50 Pilot Jet....but I don't have one. The idle mixture screw is out about 1-3/4 turns for a good mixture - which makes me think I could drop a Pilot Jet Size. I just went for a 106 mile ride and the bike ran great. It is smooth and does not have any flat spots or roughness. I got 54.3 mpg as best as I can calculate - it is hard to fill it up exactly the same amount each time. The engine pulls strongly at all rpms and throttle settings. I am pleased with how this worked out. If anybody want to trade me a 50 Pilot Jet for a 52.5 let me know. I somehow ended up without any 50 jet and I have two 52.5 jets. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/12 at 22:38:47 Well I added 6 discs to the existing 8 discs........Waaaay too loud! It didn't change the O2 readings at all. Im seriously surprised,, |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 09/30/12 at 03:03:33 091610170A0D3C0C3C04161A51630 wrote:
The bike was already running a bit too rich, and it stayed that way. If the bike had been running normal.....or a bit on the lean side.....it may have made a difference and required a jet change. On our Savage from the factory it comes too lean......and doing something like adding a muffler only makes the lean condition worse. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/30/12 at 10:28:35 I would have thot adding 8 disks, which is exactly what I did, would have leaned it out. Im runnin the K&N slip in element, I Think , IIRC, a 152 main & I cant even guess at the pilot. But IM sure IM rich, |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Charon on 10/10/12 at 12:48:17 Just from curiosity, did you use a standard Savage header pipe? If you did, perhaps you could work out some way your system could be rented to other Forum members, with a suitable deposit. It might be a way to get some real data from those with stock and aftermarket systems. It would be interesting to either confirm or refute some of the "wisdom" floating around about rejetting. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 10/11/12 at 04:33:50 1F343D2E33325C0 wrote:
Yes, I used a standard header pipe and intentionally mounted the sensor in a place that did not disturb the end of the pipe so you could bolt anything on that works with the stock header. I would be willing to rent the pipe and sensor with a deposit......the only issues are how to keep the system from being on an indefinite loan and remaining in the public domain. The system can be mounted in about an hour. Any help in establishing a reasonable rental and depost amount are appreciated. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Gyrobob on 10/11/12 at 05:43:11 It would be interesting to hook up a cyl head temp gauge and an exhaust gas temp gauge while you vary the mixtures. There are few folks here having trouble grasping the concept that max temps happen at a stoichiometrically optimal air:fuel ratio of 14.7:1 where the fuel charge is burned the quickest and yet most evenly and most completely. This means the temps are lower at mixtures leaner (say, 18:1) or richer (say, 12:1). |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 10/11/12 at 06:15:06 2719120F020F02600 wrote:
I am one that always believed that leaner mixtures burned hotter....as that is when exhaust valves, spark plug insulators and piston crowns get burned up. It could be that it is not the heat doing the burning - it could be the left over O2 is burning those things. In the old days of having 2 stroke motorcycles lean meant scored pistons....but that is probably a result of not having enough fuel/oil mixture to lubricate things adequately. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/11/12 at 06:48:41 I think it would be about Ultimate Cool if there were parts available for setups & testing. TRust becomes an issue. Ive seen people struggling with their bike & wondered how handy would it be for them to open a box, install the carb, test run it & IF that solved the problem, go to work on their carb, ride the bike, once they get their carb back in order, install, test & either leave it on or swap back & work on theirs some more, or, maybe just ship theirs off to one of these carb genius guys. Petcock issues? Ehhh,, so what if ya buy a $30.00 part? NO biggeee there.. BUt, this O2 sensor & related equipment, NOw thats a dandy Idea. I wonder if a guy could go to a State Inspection station & have them just sniff the exhaust for them..They dont do that here, yet. Dave, W/o having to re read the whole thread, is there something you could say about it? Just in a nutshell,, what you learned? Saw? How would you describe the process & what you were able to do using your sensor, if you were telling someone who never heard about it before? If you dont wanna type that, thats fine, if its more than you wanna mess with, |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 10/11/12 at 15:52:55 JOG.....No problem typing an answer. My mother taught typing in a high school and I learned to type early.....and I can type almost as fast as I can think. I think the big thing I learned is that we may all be trying jets that are too big, and maybe not moving the slide needle as much as we should. I currently am running a 150 main and a 52.5 pilot, and I have 3 washers under the slide needle - but my slide needle has a clip and I have moved it to the third space from the bottom. I just went for a ride and the gauge is showing I have a mixture of 12.7:1 at all throttle settings. The only time it is leaner is when at idle as I can set the screw wherever I want it, and it goes lean when you close the throttle. I just looked on the internet and the ideal mixture for power is 12.6:1, the mixture where there are equal parts air and fuel burned and nothing is left over is 14.7:1, and maximum fuel economy is 15.4:1. I think at the 12.7:1 I am about perfect.......it might be nice to lean the cruise out just a tad for economy - but right now the engine runs smooooooth as silk and has great power and throttle response. The O2 gauge allowed me to know exactly where I needed to make things richer or leaner.....and I avoided lots of trial and error. And I am not experienced enough to know by ear exactly what rich sounds like......or maybe not even what lean sounds like. I knew the surging my bike had just off throttle was lean......but it was an obvious problem. How to fix it was not so obvious. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/11/12 at 23:24:28 48737E6978746F69727A77681B0 wrote:
.and I can type almost as fast as I can think. You Too!?,, One Tiny detail, tho, I only use one finger & type about 4 words a minute,, You did a cool thing w/ that sensor, I hope the community gained a lot. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Gyrobob on 10/12/12 at 05:01:36 7A414C5B4A465D5B4048455A290 wrote:
Excellent work. If only the factory would have been that precise! One thing to consider. Air:fuel ratio of the mixture at the instant it is ready to be burned in the combustion chamber will be different on a hot day compared to a cold day, at higher elevations compared to sea level, and on a cloudy day compared to a clear day because of the differences in humidity and pressure. They will even vary a tenth or two depending on the exact blend of gas. That said,.. -- what you have done is to make the carb consistent at all throttle settings and flow rates. -- you have given us all an appreciation for how the carb has to be several carbs all in one to properly handle high flow rates vs small flow rates, and wide open vs idle. Quite an accomplishment. I'd still like to see how all this effects cyl head temp and exhaust gas temp. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/12/12 at 05:42:35 And, if there is anything I get from it all, it is, INternal combustion engines probably shouldnt run at all,, when they do, they really otta just melt & puke in a matter of minutes, BUT! What a great place to live! OUr goofy little 3D reality/time/space continuum ALLOWS us to have these things & they RUN & theyre pretty forgiving. Amazing little things. Slugs of aluminum flying up & down, inside tubes, sealed by a steel ring that doesnt need replaced NEArly as often as it would seem it should. & they dont just blow clouds of smoke, burning oil. Think how many times the rings slide up & down in the cylinder to go 100,000 miles..Pretty amazing, just not wearing out from sliding, then add in the violence of combustion. REally? These things dont just self destruct? How cool is that? |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Paraquat on 10/12/12 at 06:11:15 073C3126373B20263D353827540 wrote:
This corresponds with what Cobra says about my C50 and I'm happy to see that. Quote:
--Steve |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 10/12/12 at 07:36:15 One thing I did that was a big help was to replace the phillips head screws on the float bowl with allen head screws. This allows me to easily drop the floatbowl while the bike is still on the bike. The back of the float bowl is up against the battery box, and I cannot get a phillips in there.....with the allen wrench I can get 1/4-1/3 or a turn and although it takes a few minutes to get each screw out.....it is still faster than taking the carb off. I still have to take the seat and tank off, remove the battery and battery box, then remove the carb to get to the slide and slide needle......but for main and pilot jet changes and float level changes......I can drop the float bowl while the carb is still mounted. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by verslagen1 on 10/12/12 at 11:27:55 The battery box is mounted with rubber bushings. Take a pry bar against the back of the tranny and pry the box backward to get clearance to drop the bowl. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 10/15/12 at 17:45:43 2D3E2928373A3C3E356A5B0 wrote:
I am able to push the battery box back with just some firm finger pressure.....no prying required. |
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Title: Re: Dave's O2 Sensor Install Post by Dave on 02/26/15 at 03:26:31 I just looked at this old thread, and realized I never updated it to the final results. In the end I used a #50 pilot and a #150 main, and the cure for the lean surge just off idle was to remove one of the three washers under the needle clip....so I only had 2 washers below the needle. It is my belief you should choose a pilot jet that allows you to have the smoothest engine idle with the mixture screw somewhere between 1.5 - 2 turns out. If the best idle smoothness occurs at more than 2 turns out you need to install a larger pilot jet, and if your screw is less than 1.5 turns out and you can turn the screw almost all the way in and the engine still runs - you need a smaller pilot jet. The pilot jet size should not be selected based on backfire issues or random guesses....adjust the idle fuel mixture as shown in the video I linked below.....the pilot jet size should be selected for a good idle mixture with the screw between 1.5 to 2 turns out. The main jet should be selected for a good smooth acceleration at full throttle....and the needle washers should be used to adjust the mixture from just off idle to about 1/4 throttle. Use the method in the following video to adjust your idle mixture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxpQjDQzX7g |
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