SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Moly compounds in motorcycle oils
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1347581091

Message started by Oldfeller on 09/13/12 at 17:04:51

Title: Moly compounds in motorcycle oils
Post by Oldfeller on 09/13/12 at 17:04:51

"Moly" is staging another come back in the new MA2 motorcycle oils as the ZDDP goes down yet again.

Moly has a history here on the list, it was first introduced in car oils as superfine molybdenum disulphide powder that was "permanently suspended" in the oil. This was the original "energy star" compound that we all quickly learned to look out for and it was BAD NEWS for a wet clutch.

Next came "moly oil" which was a bound oil suspension of moly disulphide, no real difference in what it did to a wet clutch when it broke down in use (still bad news).

Now here comes "organic moly compounds" which is moly bound in an organic molecule that attaches to the long complex oil molecule itself. As a "bound organic" this stuff is supposedly safe in moderate amounts (less than 70 ppm) but the real world jury is still out on this question.

I guess my point is that to give up any slippery effects when needed, the organic has to crushed/smeared which releases free non-bound moly into the system again which then finds your clutch plates.

Main issue to the BITOG folks is the spectrograph analysis of the oil VOAs that they do just sees the elemental moly as the arc flame destroys the sample, it neither knows nor cares if it was organically bound or not. And it has no way of knowing how much was freed up and loose in a UOA sample either. It just counts the moly atoms in the spectrogram sample.

We have been taking a no-moly stance on approved oils -- this may need to change if the moly amount is low (under 70 ppm) and the moly is in a bound organic compound. Otherwise we may not have any oils at all to recommend pretty soon.

Example is Mobil 1 "V" Twin -- it could be listed if we could accept the 69 ppm of moly that is still showing up in all the VOAs. Mobil 1 claims it is organic moly, but no test can verify if it is or isn't. The oil does pass JASO MA2 clutch testing though, so mebbe we just trust the JASO test on this one and accept it must be the good sort of organic moly that is showing up as "elemental moly" in the VOA spectrographic analysis.

Title: Re: Moly compounds in motorcycle oils
Post by verslagen1 on 09/13/12 at 17:07:55

Is this only stock cork clutches or kevlar too?

Title: Re: Moly compounds in motorcycle oils
Post by Oldfeller on 09/14/12 at 12:18:22

Since the moly binds to the bare steel plates, either one would get affected about the same. Since kevlar friction plates have a higher coefficent of friction than cork plates, kevlar could perhaps (logically) stand more crap on their steel plates before the slipping starts.

Minor amounts of organic moly (less than 70 ppm) I guess we are going to have to tolerate this in the new motorcycle oils when reviewing them. And we will trust passing the JASO MA and MA2 test as proof the moly shown is "organic moly" and will be less harmful to your clutch.

(Getting awful durn trusting, ain't we?)

Real proof will come from long term List usage of the oils in question.

It seems that moly is showing up more in the synthetic oils than in the dino oils, so this might possibly be a "long term usage" thing in the minds of the oil formulators.

Title: Re: Moly compounds in motorcycle oils
Post by Gyrobob on 09/14/12 at 14:11:06

It is really cool how we have guys here that know about this stuff to this kind of detail, AND, are willing to keep aware of the situation, AND keep us informed.

Title: Re: Moly compounds in motorcycle oils
Post by ralfyguy on 09/15/12 at 06:44:00

Correct, because I would have never thought of putting T6 in my bike otherwise.

Title: Re: Moly compounds in motorcycle oils
Post by clearush on 09/15/12 at 08:28:41

I agree I would have probably killed my clutch and cam/tappets by using wrong oil.

Title: Re: Moly compounds in motorcycle oils
Post by Oldfeller on 09/15/12 at 18:02:30

"Recent" Changes

Rotella T-6 has been coming up with moly in it for the last full year, ever since the CI-4 to CJ-4 took the ZDDP down to 1250 ppm and the JASO MA certification labeling reformulation which occured shortly thereafter.

T-6 passes JASO clutch testing and T-6 is widely used here on the list with no clutch slippage reported, so the moly that is in it at 59 ppm is considered by us to be "of the organic non-harmful sort" and not to be of concern.

VOA of Rotella T-6
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/mklinuxdude/VOA/e64704-001.gif

================================================

A New Oil listed

Recommended oils listing now includes Mobil 1 V Twin, this decision is based off of V Twin passing all the JASO MA clutch testing so it logically it should be the "good" non-clutch poluting organic moly compounds that are in the oil at 79 ppm. We have one list member who has used it since before the JASO reformulation with no reported issues with clutch slippage.

Mobil 1 20w-50 V-Twin
Blackstone Labs
Sample Date: 03/11/04

"Nothing too unusual showed up in this virgin Mobil oil sample. Note the slight presence of sodium, which will also be in your oil samples, should you choose to use this oil in your engines. The viscosity is just a little higher than our standard range for 20w/50 oil, but it's still okay. The TBN read 10.8."

Measured/ Universal Average
Aluminum.........2.................1
Chromium.........0.................0
Iron.............2.................1
Copper...........0.................0
Lead.............0.................0
Tin..............0.................0
Molybdenum......79................35
Nickel...........0.................0
Manganese........0.................0
Silver...........0.................0
Titanium.........0.................0
Potassium........0.................0
Boron..........195................57
Silicon..........6.................4
Sodium...........6.................3
Calcium.......2540..............2082
Magnesium.......16...............102
Phosphorus....1282...............888
Zinc..........1613..............1003
Baruim...........0.................0

SUS Viscosity @210F (should be) = 88-99
SUS Viscosity @210F (tested) = 101.8

=================================================

Old Reliable Dino Rotella T

Dino Rotella T "Triple Protection" has been stable for some years now with the only reported change being to remove some sulfur to get the sulfur content down low enough to pass the second wave of JASO MA testing.

This VOA is old, but supposedly the oil is still the same formulation with only a trace (3 ppm) of moly content which is of no concern to us at this time.

http://63.240.161.99/bitog/59/shell-rotella-15w40.jpg