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Message started by Serowbot on 09/06/12 at 13:39:42

Title: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy...
Post by Serowbot on 09/06/12 at 13:39:42

;D ;D ;D...
Yea,.. I'm a cheapskate...

I just did an oil change... I save used tinfoil from cooking to reuse, covering the exhaust pipe during filter changes... (keeps the oil off the pipe)...
;D...
I also tear paper towels in half, if I don't need a whole one... :-?...
Scandalous!...

Got any cheapy habits?...
Hmm?... :-?...

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/12 at 14:11:55

I also tear paper towels in half, if I don't need a whole one... Huh...
Scandalous!...

Heck yea, me too,,& if I dry the counter top & its clean, just wet, I let the towel dry & use it again,

I usually use a sponge,,but sometimes I just grab first & think later,,

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by arteacher on 09/06/12 at 15:00:24

I smoke a pipe, and to save a bit of money I take the "wattle" - the stuff that is left over that you scrape out of the bottom of the bowl, rinse the ash out of it, dry it, and mix it with new tobacco at about 10%. If carefully done it improves the flavor, as you are adding nicotine rich stuff to the original tobacco.
And I buy the paper towels that are already half sheets.
I also filter used oil (T6) through polyester fiber fill and use it to top up between changes.
I buy stuff on sale at the grocery store and freeze it.
I wait till tools go on sale for 1/2 price at Canadian Tire. I don't think I have ever paid full price for a tool. I have some I have never used, like a jig saw and a buffer, but I will use them, smiling all the while knowing I paid 1/2 price. Paid half price for my motorcycle jack.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by prechermike on 09/06/12 at 15:23:53

My family and I were green, sort of, before green was the way to be.  We have been big in the reuse department for a long time.  Cool whip containers, etc never get thrown away.  Since I started reloading, the best thing to store bullets in is a plastic peanut butter or mayo jar.  Can't always justify buying something special for a job when I have something else that will work just as well.

I am NOT cheap, I am frugal!

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Pine on 09/06/12 at 15:44:44

Hmmm. i dont think I am that much of a cheapskate myself.. however just to add flavor:

1)I pick up lead wheel weights.. which are being banned .. soon they might be worth something

2) I cast lead bullets from wheel weights (see #1)

3) I reload .38/.357 bullets ( see 1 and 2)

4) I drive a motorcycle to work daily and use it when I can instead of the truck

5)I build my own computers

6)I shop for many things on the web versus the box stores

7) I use Vonage as my phone service, and have it connect to the house phone wiring, if you didnt know you would think is was normal house wired phone

8) I DO NOT have a smart phone and thus no "data Plan"

9) I have a programmable thermostat to control the house AC/Heat.. and I program it to save me money

10) every room save the bathrooms has a ceiling fan, even the kitchen

11) I dont worry about my hair... its gets cut when the wife complains.. about once every other month cuts are $12 at the BARBER ( not that Style shop)

12) I use na electric shaver, which is now about 5 years old. I buy new blades on the web for $28... last about a year

13) i ran all my own ethernet wiring and set up multiple routers, AP's, switches and a server.

14) I make my own coffee every morn... @ $5 per cup from Starbucks.. I figure I save $15 per day!

15) all lights are CF ... excpet for the new LED one

16) i use a $99 pressure washer to wash off the roof. This keeps the leaves and crap from piling up which leads to a quicker deterioration of the shingles. Also good for the gutters and driveway.

17) i wash my own car/truck at home

18)I own and use re-chargable batteries for near about everything

19) i belong to a credit union. Visa rate is 8%, so is the personal loan. I try to keep such things to minimum...

20) At age 49, i am on my third truck since I graduated college and began my career. I average 10 years before .. some dratted event wrecks them!

21) I go not golf, hunt, fish, or go to any sporting events. I have only one club membership - shooting range @ $100 per year

22) i buy socks about once every three years.. always 10 pair of identical socks. Black.

23) I built my own fence

24) i put in outlets, lights and all wiring for a shed.

25) my lawnmower cost $99 8 years ago and runs as good as ever

26) I do  not drink enough to find any that I do expensive. I do not keep any alchol in the house. If I want a beer.. I go buy two and done.

27) I like cereal.. its good any time of day for as many meals as I do not want cook.. Oatlmeal and grits as well.

28) I make my own pimento cheese spread... with REAL cheese

29) Not divorced... I hear thats cost too much...

30) Craigslist can have some good deals.. thats where my savage came from!

31) tithe

about all I can think of....  ;D

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Paraquat on 09/06/12 at 19:16:50

I'm not married.

My girlfriend uses the dog's electric razor to buzz my hair.
(a year ago I bought a 75 dollar shaver/trimmer at Walmart. A Wahl brand one. It sucks, it bogs down and dies if you lean into it. The dog razor doesn't skip a beat.)

I ask for socks for birthday/Christmas. I never get Legos anymore :/

I pay the mortgage and the trade off is that my girlfriend pays for groceries so I sneak cookies and treats in there.

I'm a member of BJ's wholesale store (bulk goods for consumers) so I buy ketchup, mustard, coffee, etc in bulk.

All my lights are on timers, the bathroom fan is on a timer. The AC's were on those remote switches with the little plastic keys to set for 10 minutes before I got home from work but now that I have a dog stuck in the house I leave them on 78 and energy saver.

I disregard change in my monetary calculations but rather toss it into a 5 gallon water jug. I'm almost at the top most line before it starts to funnel down for the neck.

Not much that isn't or wouldn't be considered common sense.
Any of you guys reload 7.62x39? I can't find anyone with the dies. I've been meaning to invest in a Dillion 550 but something always comes up.


--Steve

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by rfw2003 on 09/06/12 at 19:21:39


6E5F4C5F4F4B5F4A3E0 wrote:
I'm not married.

Not much that isn't or wouldn't be considered common sense.
Any of you guys reload 7.62x39? I can't find anyone with the dies. I've been meaning to invest in a Dillion 550 but something always comes up.


--Steve


Midwayusa.com has them in stock.

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=20&newcategorydimensionid=12023&

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Paraquat on 09/06/12 at 19:33:59

The dies are the cheap part.
The Dillion 550 is the pricy part.
http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/23594/catid/1/RL_550B


--Steve

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by rfw2003 on 09/06/12 at 19:38:44

True,  but that Dillion is a nice one

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/12 at 20:52:04

Pine


28) I make my own pimento cheese spread... with REAL cheese

Is it too much typing to drop a How To?

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Cavi Mike on 09/06/12 at 21:12:17

Tuna. Lots of tuna. Good, good for you and CHEAP. I see pizza-boxes and deli-bags in the trash at work all the time and I think to myself 'I won't spend $10 all week and these guys spend $10 a day and then complain about being broke.' When I'm broke it's because I bought a new toy, not because I spent $50+ a week on myself for food.

Save everything. To all of the people that bought parts from me: Those boxes, peanuts and other packaging materials? I didn't buy those. I bought what came in that and then reused it.

Buy used. I've never bought a new car or bike, my entire entertainment system is used components and my computer is half used parts. I'd rather buy something used that works than get home with my new item only to find out it's defective and have to deal with returning it. I don't even want to get into recalls...

Repair, don't replace. Unless it's epoxied together like the CDI on our bikes, it can be repaired. Case in point: My nice pedestal fan. I always leave it on for the dog and I came home one day to find it dead. I can barely turn the blade and it won't even make a humming noise. I pull the armature out of the motor and lap the bushings then search the wiring to find a blown ceramic fuse the size of a 4-40 nut. My fan works again and has all summer.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by srinath on 09/06/12 at 21:26:17

Other than some of the things you guys do that I do when relevant to my life -
I reuse shaving cream. Like the second pass, the first one gets reused plus a little more.

I also never throw away anything. I fish parts off it, I pull things off other things to use in a third ...
Like I got a GS swingarm with a bad roller bearing with a broken cage for free ... I kept that bad bearing in a sheet of paper folded stashed ... and 6 months later got a seca 2. In an attempt to get the crud off the carbs I had to cut the float pins cos they were supposedly removable, but if they broke off the pivot points the carbs were useless ... The needles in the swingarm bearing of a GS500 are a perfect fit for the seca 2's carbs float pins.
Here is some more tips that haven't been mentioned. Speaker wires+ alligator clips = motorcycle jumper cables.
Super hot peppers are a better deal for the $ than mild, cos you can use a tiny sliver and get away with it. I like the Ghost peppers. same $ as habanero but 10X hotter.
Old house speakers way better than new house speakers.
Cheng shin tires work great for a savage and most cruisers.
And here is the biggie I'd like to but dont -
Paying 13% in taxes are better than 30%.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by srinath on 09/06/12 at 21:32:54


1D3F28371337353B5E0 wrote:
Repair, don't replace. Unless it's epoxied together like the CDI on our bikes, it can be repaired. Case in point: My nice pedestal fan. I always leave it on for the dog and I came home one day to find it dead. I can barely turn the blade and it won't even make a humming noise. I pull the armature out of the motor and lap the bushings then search the wiring to find a blown ceramic fuse the size of a 4-40 nut. My fan works again and has all summer.



Hey I have split open many a CDI box and replaced a 40c transistor and had it working again. The scarcely believeable $700 MZ cdi box had $7 worth of components in it. 1 transistor was bad. I have a tester I got for $5 @ yard sale. Pulled and swapped and perfect.
I also have had pedestal fans lose lube, lose a fuse and best of all lose a cheese cube sized capacitor. swap and done, good as new. BTW my sony reel to reel also uses a capacitor that looks like a roll of dollar coins but is the same as the cheese cube available on ebay or @ most electrical places as a "fan capacitor".
What you need to ask is not "what is it" it is "what else is it".

A potted CDI can be opened up by soaking it in mek for 3 days.

Cool.
srinath.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Serowbot on 09/06/12 at 21:58:46

I knew I liked you guys for some reason... ;D...

The seat back on my bike is made from the lid of a VHS VCR that died... and before I threw it out,.. I took out every screw I could find, and saved the cover because it was a nice bit of tin...
My license plate bracket is made from a street sign I found in the wash...
... and my mini-flyscreen is an upside-down FF helmet face shield...
Oh... and my tail bag attaches to my seat via an old drawer handle...
... and the bar, my fork bag mounts to is from a sink drain stopper...

Re-purposing rules!... ;D...

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/12 at 22:27:31

I am humbled.. you guys are GOOD..
& thank all of you, you comfort me. I no longer feel like a freak, Im just a rookie! I gotta get my wife to read this. She thinks I am the only guy on the planet who "autopsies" everything & harvests parts to use in projects.
I tell her there are others, but that none are as devoted or creative. After she reads this, she will know there are many others who do what I do, & do it better. Maybe Ill just leave her outta this..

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Boofer on 09/07/12 at 00:38:03

This is wild. I PM'd Kimchris and babyhog a few weeks back about home made laundry detergent. $10 of ingredients from Wal Mart makes at least 12 gallons. We only make about 4 gallons at a time, but you do have to buy a bar of Fels Naptha soap for each batch. Takes about 15 minutes, but it has to sit and cool overnight to thicken.  One cup cleans a load, but it won't take grease out of workshirts. It has no odor, but a cup of gain per batch gives it a fresh scent. www.hillbillyhousewife.com  So far, so good.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Pine on 09/07/12 at 09:50:11


3E2127203D3A0B3B0B33212D66540 wrote:
Pine


28) I make my own pimento cheese spread... with REAL cheese

Is it too much typing to drop a How To?


I dont have any measurements... its just "to satisfaction"

grate some mild chedder .. I think they come 16oz
grate 1/2 as much sharp chedder (extra wang) the rest goes on crackers
buy a tiny jar of Pimentos(drain).. which BTW you can make
add mayo to make the texture you want
add just a tich of yellow mustard
if you need, add a pinch of salt (generally I dont, depends on the cheese)

done...

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by LANCER on 09/07/12 at 11:21:17


4E77707B6A716C1E0 wrote:
[quote author=3E2127203D3A0B3B0B33212D66540 link=1346963983/0#9 date=1346989924]Pine


28) I make my own pimento cheese spread... with REAL cheese

Is it too much typing to drop a How To?


I dont have any measurements... its just "to satisfaction"

grate some mild chedder .. I think they come 16oz
grate 1/2 as much sharp chedder (extra wang) the rest goes on crackers
buy a tiny jar of Pimentos(drain).. which BTW you can make
add mayo to make the texture you want
add just a tich of yellow mustard
if you need, add a pinch of salt (generally I dont, depends on the cheese)

done... [/quote]

Try a little squeeze of lemon in it for a bit of jazz.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by LANCER on 09/07/12 at 11:30:27


526B6C67766D70020 wrote:
Hmmm. i dont think I am that much of a cheapskate myself.. however just to add flavor:

1)I pick up lead wheel weights.. which are being banned .. soon they might be worth something

2) I cast lead bullets from wheel weights (see #1)

3) I reload .38/.357 bullets ( see 1 and 2)
 I will begin doing this ... just makes sense

4) I drive a motorcycle to work daily and use it when I can instead of the truck

5)I build my own computers

6)I shop for many things on the web versus the box stores

7) I use Vonage as my phone service, and have it connect to the house phone wiring, if you didnt know you would think is was normal house wired phone

8) I DO NOT have a smart phone and thus no "data Plan"

9) I have a programmable thermostat to control the house AC/Heat.. and I program it to save me money

10) every room save the bathrooms has a ceiling fan, even the kitchen

11) I dont worry about my hair... its gets cut when the wife complains.. about once every other month cuts are $12 at the BARBER ( not that Style shop) clippers less than $20 @ Wallyworld;  one time purchase;  buzz your own head & save $100+ a year !

12) I use na electric shaver, which is now about 5 years old. I buy new blades on the web for $28... last about a year

13) i ran all my own ethernet wiring and set up multiple routers, AP's, switches and a server.

14) I make my own coffee every morn... @ $5 per cup from Starbucks.. I figure I save $15 per day!

15) all lights are CF ... excpet for the new LED one  I avoid CF if possible; mecury poisoning if comtaminated ... not good

16) i use a $99 pressure washer to wash off the roof. This keeps the leaves and crap from piling up which leads to a quicker deterioration of the shingles. Also good for the gutters and driveway.

17) i wash my own car/truck at home

18)I own and use re-chargable batteries for near about everything

19) i belong to a credit union. Visa rate is 8%, so is the personal loan. I try to keep such things to minimum...

20) At age 49, i am on my third truck since I graduated college and began my career. I average 10 years before .. some dratted event wrecks them!

21) I go not golf, hunt, fish, or go to any sporting events. I have only one club membership - shooting range @ $100 per year

22) i buy socks about once every three years.. always 10 pair of identical socks. Black.

23) I built my own fence

24) i put in outlets, lights and all wiring for a shed.

25) my lawnmower cost $99 8 years ago and runs as good as ever

26) I do  not drink enough to find any that I do expensive. I do not keep any alchol in the house. If I want a beer.. I go buy two and done.

27) I like cereal.. its good any time of day for as many meals as I do not want cook.. Oatlmeal and grits as well.

28) I make my own pimento cheese spread... with REAL cheese
 Wonderful stuff !
29) Not divorced... I hear thats cost too much...

30) Craigslist can have some good deals.. thats where my savage came from!

31) tithe  move this to the #1 priority spot

about all I can think of....  ;D


Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by rl153 on 09/07/12 at 12:34:58

My TV is 10 years old, a big 27" box, about 100 lbs. I don't get cable ,but use that converter  box and over the air antenna they were giving out coupons for ,6 years ago. My brother pays $150 a month for cable, this is free. My car is a 1988 buick century I've had for 11 years . Paid $1500,then .Had a few problems, but runs better than ever now. only 100k on it. Bought the s40 on craigslist,a bargain.I buy everything on sale in bulk. Amazon , ebay, walmart,and Sams club.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by John_D FSO on 09/11/12 at 13:52:08

Speaking of saving containers...
I save all the old cottage cheese containers and such for packing leftovers in my lunch, but the handy ones are all the little plastic cans from when I used to chew tobacco. They're great for storing small fasteners, electrical connectors, antacids in my clipboard at work, etc...  :D

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by srinath on 09/11/12 at 14:00:01

Pill bottles are great for storing stuff from stuff you pull apart.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Boofer on 09/12/12 at 00:50:53

I like plastic peanut butter jars for storage, and when I run across a new mommy at church I ask her to save me a week's worth of baby food jars. They can be free standing or screw the top to the underside of a board/shelf and just unscrew them when needed.  :)

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Paraquat on 09/12/12 at 05:30:42

When I was first shopping around for a home I found one with a nice work bench. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why all these lids were nailed to the ceiling.
It wasn't until about 3 months later I saw it again at an old family member's house. With the jar in place.
You old guys had some good ideas.


--Steve

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by mpescatori on 09/12/12 at 07:43:39


494853545B4E523A0 wrote:
[quote author=1D3F28371337353B5E0 link=1346963983/0#10 date=1346991137]


Repair, don't replace. Unless it's epoxied together like the CDI on our bikes, it can be repaired. Case in point: My nice pedestal fan. I always leave it on for the dog and I came home one day to find it dead. I can barely turn the blade and it won't even make a humming noise. I pull the armature out of the motor and lap the bushings then search the wiring to find a blown ceramic fuse the size of a 4-40 nut. My fan works again and has all summer.



Hey I have split open many a CDI box and replaced a 40c transistor and had it working again. The scarcely believeable $700 MZ cdi box had $7 worth of components in it. 1 transistor was bad. I have a tester I got for $5 @ yard sale. Pulled and swapped and perfect.
I also have had pedestal fans lose lube, lose a fuse and best of all lose a cheese cube sized capacitor. swap and done, good as new. BTW my sony reel to reel also uses a capacitor that looks like a roll of dollar coins but is the same as the cheese cube available on ebay or @ most electrical places as a "fan capacitor".
What you need to ask is not "what is it" it is "what else is it".

A potted CDI can be opened up by soaking it in mek for 3 days.
Cool.
srinath.[/quote]

Hi Srinath, could you please explain  :o

I understand what a "potted CDI" is, but what on earth is "mek" ???  :-/

:) Maurizio

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by verslagen1 on 09/12/12 at 08:01:52

methyl ethyl ketone

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by mpescatori on 09/12/12 at 10:29:11

As in... nail polish remover, or what ?  ::)

(I mean, I can't just go to the nearest chemical lab and ask for methyl-ethyl-ketone, I assume there's a common commercial name for that?)

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/12/12 at 10:36:51

I think I bought some MEK from a janitorial supply, once upon a time, long, looong ago.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by prechermike on 09/12/12 at 11:01:41


5C4154425250455E4358310 wrote:
As in... nail polish remover, or what ?  ::)

(I mean, I can't just go to the nearest chemical lab and ask for methyl-ethyl-ketone, I assume there's a common commercial name for that?)


http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4030&familyName=MEK+-++Methyl+Ethyl+Ketone

But I'm pretty sure they won't ship to Italy. :(

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by verslagen1 on 09/12/12 at 11:19:02


362B3E28383A2F3429325B0 wrote:
As in... nail polish remover, or what ?  ::)

(I mean, I can't just go to the nearest chemical lab and ask for methyl-ethyl-ketone, I assume there's a common commercial name for that?)

It's a common solvent used here
I don't know the italian translation
but you may need a license to get it
I think it's recently been banned for use at all the aerospace companies... it kills all the rats submersed in it.   ::)

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by youzguyz on 09/12/12 at 11:38:23

Some great ideas in here.. Thanks!  :D

I have a NET10 cell phone, and hardly use it for a phone (mostly music source to helmet).  Pay as you go plan, spending $30 every two months. or something like that.  Minutes roll over, but you have to buy when days are running out.  I got a LOT of minutes stacked up.  Data is included and counted as minutes.  For what little data the cheap phone will do.

I don't cut my hair (what little is left).  
I don't shave ever (I just trim the beard a bit when it gets caught in the helmet strap)
I look like my avatar, only more so.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Dave on 09/13/12 at 07:41:21


0A33343F2E35285A0 wrote:
[quote author=3E2127203D3A0B3B0B33212D66540 link=1346963983/0#9 date=1346989924]Pine


28) I make my own pimento cheese spread... with REAL cheese

Is it too much typing to drop a How To?


I dont have any measurements... its just "to satisfaction"

grate some mild chedder .. I think they come 16oz
grate 1/2 as much sharp chedder (extra wang) the rest goes on crackers
buy a tiny jar of Pimentos(drain).. which BTW you can make
add mayo to make the texture you want
add just a tich of yellow mustard
if you need, add a pinch of salt (generally I dont, depends on the cheese)

done... [/quote]

Maybe I am too cheap........I have my wife put some macaroni in the homemade cheese spread to make it go a bit farther.  That way I don't feel so bad if I pile it on too thick! ;D

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by Boule’tard on 09/13/12 at 16:14:46

Good cheap-ass tips all around, you guys!!  :D

I can't really add anything except to agree with a few points.  Horse clippers are good.  They handle all my hair cutting and goatee trimming duties.  I have a straight razor to do the rest of my face, and the sharpening stones to maintain it, so now I don't even buy the 20 cent disposable razors.

The comments on cutting out cable/cell phone charges are also good.  Our TV stays off except for the occasional DVD or video game, so no cable or dish bills.  My cell phone has no plan.. data or otherwise.  I just buy more T-mobile minutes off eBay as needed.  Internet access is mooched off a neighbor in exchange for yardwork.  The cost of all media & communications works out to about 8 bucks a month.  

With the kids starting to eat us out of house & home, the next step is to get a costco membership and start buying food in bulk.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by LANCER on 09/13/12 at 20:25:51

Buy dry beans; pinto and kidney beans; they are dirt cheap, last forever on the shelf and have good protein, complex carbs, almost no fat and vitamins & minerals.  You can live off of them if need be.
They are the perfect survival food; just add water.
You can cut your food budget by 90% with them.

Title: Re: Cheapskate wars... or tips for a bad economy..
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/13/12 at 22:48:32


505D525F594E0E0B3C0 wrote:
Buy dry beans; pinto and kidney beans; they are dirt cheap, last forever on the shelf and have good protein, complex carbs, almost no fat and vitamins & minerals.  You can live off of them if need be.
They are the perfect survival food; just add water.
You can cut your food budget by 90% with them.




You can cut your food budget by 90% with them.


True enough, but then ya hafta add in the cost of air fresheners.



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