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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Oil changing question /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1346947416 Message started by John C on 09/06/12 at 09:03:35 |
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Title: Oil changing question Post by John C on 09/06/12 at 09:03:35 I've seen various topics and must admit to being a bit overwhelmed. Here's the basic question. I've got oil filters and am due for a change in about two weeks. I have a wally work, o'reilly's and auto-zone near me. I have an 07 thumper (I call her suzie q) with 10,750 miles on it. I honestly don't remember what I bought last time in the way of oil, so here's my question. I've seen "ZDDP" tossed out a bunch and want to know simply this: When I go to change my oil next, do I buy just oil (and if so,does where I live make a difference), or do I buy stuff with ZDDP in it or needing to be added to it. Obviously, I'm a straight up noob. No problems in admitting it. Just wanting to learn and tinker on the weekends with a great bike. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Serowbot on 09/06/12 at 09:10:18 Not meaning to start an oil war, but... the simple, no worry answer is, get a gallon of Shell Rotella T... from Wallyworld.. It may or may not be the greatest oil ever, but has ZDDP and is used by many bikers, and is reasonably priced... 15w-40... is good... not 10w-30...(somebody said 10w-30 isn't motorcycle rated)... :-?... .. or get T6 if you want synth... |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by John C on 09/06/12 at 09:13:00 Yeah, definitely not trying to start anything, but just looking for generic information on a) if there's oil that contain the zddp stuff or b) if not, what two things to use together,and in what ratio (1 quart to one 1 cup or what). Thanks to all. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Serowbot on 09/06/12 at 09:19:36 There are ZDDP additives,... but if you use an oil that doesn't have ZDDP in it,.. you have to wonder what they are using in it's place, and will this ingredient cause any problems... I don't know... |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Paraquat on 09/06/12 at 09:19:36 Believe it or not... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345080430 --Steve |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by John C on 09/06/12 at 09:36:33 Paraquat, are you saying that in the Shell Oil that Serow is recommending, I need to do what's in the post? I may as well be looking at the human brain. Help?! |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/06/12 at 09:44:38 Just buy you a synthetic motorcycle oil and your worries are over,No additives needed,Motorcycle oils are made my oil engineers, not back yard wannabe oil guys. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Dave on 09/06/12 at 09:48:53 The Shell Rotella T 15W-40 already has adequate ZDDP for your bike. You will not have to add anything. I was a hold out for a long time and resisted accepting that this was the "best" oil for my bike....but I eventually became convinced that currently it is the only conveniently avaiable oil that is good. Most Auto stores and Big Box stores no longer carry oils with adequate ZDDP....and you have to seek out specialty stores and buy obscure oils like Brad Penn, Amsoil, etc. (Or as Bill has suggested......you can mail order $ 14.00 a quart Klotz). For the recommended oils thread on this site.....go here: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565 |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/06/12 at 09:55:32 OldFeller should tell Suzuki about his oil,My Suzuki dealer for over 40 years never heard about putting diesel oil in a motorcycle.And when he was young he raced motorcycles for 20 years |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by verslagen1 on 09/06/12 at 10:07:11 02090C0C5657600 wrote:
Did he say that when you were picking up your case of Klotz? |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/12 at 10:29:09 ;) hee hee ..... purty clear who really starts all the oil wars here on the list, casting that klotz top bait and then dragging it slowly across the lilly pads. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Serowbot on 09/06/12 at 10:36:38 See?... wasn't that simple?... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/12 at 10:38:01 Here is a good resource for where you are right now -- it is the VERY TOP item on the Rubber Side Down page for a reason. Try reading it all then asking your questions according to your new knowledge. There is a lot of stuff on this list, some pretty advanced, some very basic. Our problem is we will talk "advanced stuff" to people who are asking simple stuff. Speaking of Basic Stuff -- don't pay a lot of attention to what Bill says. He says a lot of things for effect, trying to provoke people. He is not supposed to be talking to new people any more since he got sentenced for telling newbies complete nonsense on purpose, but that is another story you will hear about later on, I suspect. Good luck with your first oil change. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/06/12 at 12:31:13 You can go with a cheap oil thats wasn't made for a motorcycle,But I found out in my life time that going cheap cost more in the long run. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/12 at 13:56:16 BIg difference between "going cheap" & purchasing a well researched item with a proven track record that isnt "cheap" it just doesnt cost a ridiculous amount of money for a lousy quart of it. My Motorcycles have Rotella T 15/40 in them. The backhoe, the lawnmower & pickup.. Ive bveen running Rotella for at least 15 of the 20, 000 miles on the bike,, no munched bearings,, clutch works great. Bill happily ignores the facts about Rotella & says its just a Diesel oil,, Well,, what engines are more hostile inside? Gas or diesel? Diesels LOAD the heck out of the bearings, as they crush the air in the cylinder to the point the diesel ignites,,think about it,, |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by renegade1 on 09/06/12 at 14:08:30 I went with shell rotella t and did a two ounce shot of booster into it( into the whole bottle (5L)), according to the zddp rating chart on this site i should have around 1550 zddp. Did not use REDLINE booster though, i went with LUCAS booster because i know the guys at the shop where i live. not to sure how different REDLINE is compared to LUCAS boosters though. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/12 at 14:55:36 Whammo !!! Bursting out of the lilly pads, the Justin bass hits the sputter plug, and Bill sets the hook into the wily fish's lip with a skilled flip of the rod tip ..... |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/12 at 15:00:45 Renegade1, Lucas does not recommend their booster for wet clutch motorcycle engines because it contains poly chain esters, thickeners and "cling promoters", all of which do funky things to your wet clutch. Your buds who use it in car engines do not care about these things because they have dry plate clutches or auto transmissions with separate oil supplies. Ask your expert buds how you are going to get the stuff out of your clutch, perhaps their expertise extends to that knowledge as well. So far nobody here has ever figured that one out, other than stripping the plates out and scrubbing them with solvent and then sanding the steel plates with a finishing sander. Go read the recommended oils and boosters listing here on the list, all you new persons. We keep it in the new person's section at the very tippy top of RSD so it is easy to find. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344399573 It is there to keep you from doing stuff like this to yourselves. :P |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/06/12 at 16:02:50 6B747275686F5E6E5E66747833010 wrote:
JOG I've had diesels engines in bobcats and I used diesel oil not motorcycle oil,In motorcycles I use motorcycle oil the best I can get,No additives needed.I even use car oil in cars the best I can get,Not diesel or motorcycle oil.Its really pretty simply. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/06/12 at 16:05:57 77606B606264616034050 wrote:
Better put some magnets in the engine to get the metal junks.Otherwise your engine will go kupunk. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/12 at 16:20:02 777C79792322150 wrote:
JOG I've had diesels engines in bobcats and I used diesel oil not motorcycle oil,In motorcycles I use motorcycle oil the best I can get,No additives needed.I even use car oil in cars the best I can get,Not diesel or motorcycle oil.Its really pretty simply.[/quote] My question I keep asking myself is "Is Bill incapable of grasping this distinction, or is he just unwilling?" Heres the deal, Bill.. You take a harsh environment & find a product that will survive in it, then put it in a less harsh environment & it will Do Great. Rotella provides protection to Diesel En gines,, & will do so for gasoline engines, also. What makes Motorcycle OIl motorcycle oil is the fact that it Lacks all the super slicky stuff that car engines use to replace the things diesels use. Back before catalytic converters, there was no need for oil to be stripped of ZDDP & other things our valve train so desperately needs.,Now, however, in order to NOT foul them out, oils have to be made differently.,So, since diesels dont have Catalytics, they can have things in them that keep an engine happy & dont screw up a wet clutch. Please, ohh please tell me your mind is sufficiently large & flexible to be able to wrap around these complex ideas. So, motorcycle oils are designed to accommodate a wet clutch,,that doesnt make them superior to other oils, they simply do not have the additives that the modern car needs. Diesel oil, like Rotella, not only doesnt have those additives the wet clutch cant take, it has additives our valve train needs. Give it UP, man, run what you want, spend all that $$$, but Im getting as good of an oil for $13.00 a gallon as you are for $13.00 per oil change,maybe better, |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bobert on 09/06/12 at 16:33:51 Bill, Rotella T 15w-40 dino and Rotella T 5w-40 synthetic ARE motorcycle oils. They both have JASO MA approval, which is a Japanese motorcycle rating. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/12 at 17:31:16 Oho !!! Bill had him a dual lure rig up, one sputter plug following the other like a bull frog chasing a minnow -- what bass could resist that? Now, with two big fish on his line, what will Billum do now? ;) http://www.bassandtroutfishingdigest.com/float_tube_fishing.jpg |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Charon on 09/06/12 at 17:38:09 He will tell us yet again that Rotella is "Diesel oil" and that we should be using "Motorsickle Oil." His mind is made up, and we should stop trying to confuse him with mere facts. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/12 at 17:44:02 Bill !!!! Take a closer look at them fishies you is a trying to catch .... they seem to be a schooling in on you bud, getting closer and closer. There are 3 of them now, and the two on your line are making your little one man float chair spin round and round as they wrap the line around and round your remaining leg. Are they bass, or crappie or bream? Catfish? Trout? Whut sort of fishies are them narsty looking things? They got lots of big 'ol facts sticking outta their jaws, and them facts sure seem to be dripping & drooling that nasty 'ol data poison stuff, now don't they? :-? Bill, whut if them fishies start to attack you and sink them data laden facts into your poor ol posterior again? :-/ http://animal.discovery.com/fish/river-monsters/goliath-tigerfish/images/goliath-tigerfish-205x110.jpg |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/06/12 at 19:42:53 5D767F6C71701E0 wrote:
What is Shell Advance make for and why. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/06/12 at 19:59:14 Europeans, Bill, Europeans .... it "make" for Europeans, South Americans and Indochinese. It not "make" for North Americans (not yet anyway). It not make its way onto the VOA listings so we have no clue what is in it right now. Some are MA2, some are MA Likely it will be as costly as any other motorcycle oil when it gets here. IT WON'T MAKE ROTELLA GO AWAY Rotella will always be here to haunt you. ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Paraquat on 09/06/12 at 20:13:42 Now you did it. You've awakened Larry, Curly, and Moe. You asked for a chart of ZDDP additives and I posted one. That's it, I'm out of this thread before they break out the chemical, biological, and/or nuclear weaponry. --Steve |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by SALB on 09/06/12 at 21:10:59 272C29297372450 wrote:
Bill hasn't figured out the difference between cheap and frugal. If he wants to put red caviar in his bike, let him. Rotella is Jaso MA rated and has sufficient zddp for a stock motor, so that's what this poor boys using! 8-) |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by John C on 09/07/12 at 09:12:41 Y'all have fun arguing. This noob is having none of it. Just a heads up, but from one noob to "older folks", guys like me that aren't looking to start anything, are just looking for advice...you all could sure scare a guy. I'm looking for a nice "bass" that could help and up and coming younger "bass" get his fins wet, in the midst of all the sharks out there. If you know someone is a shark, lock him out of the forums, so that younger "bass" don't get chewed up and spit out. Being confused on something like oil, that could potentially ruin my bike if I'm not careful, tends to piss me off. When I've already invested a good bit of money into it, I'd like to keep my bike intact. Y'all have fun arguing. I'm out of this particular topic. Peace. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/07/12 at 10:05:25 John go to a Suzuki motorcycle dealer and ask him what you should use. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/12 at 10:23:52 OK, John C -- I'll get rid of the Bill mouse and give you the 3 cent straight answer. Our Savage motorcycle uses a 1970-80's era antique flat tappet split rocker system to actuate the valves. Modern oils, motorcycle and car oils, are now formulated for catalytic converter equipped, roller tappet actuated, fuel injected engine systems -- Oil in general no longer has the levels of ZDDP necessary to support your 1987 designed Suzuki Savage. It can't, the EPA and CAFE regulations no longer permit it. There is still debate as to the true minimum needed ZDDP level for getting the best life out of the antique Savage cam and split fork rocker tappet system. The current debated number is somewhere between 1,200 and 1,850 ppm of ZDDP with only the lesser number being available locally in a oil product without requiring the use of a mail order ZDDP booster (or a mail order oil). Most of us boost the Rotella products as that is the least cost way to get up to the higher ZDDP levels. Rotella is the only "affordable" JASO MA oil that still hits 1,200 ppm right out of the bottle. The key thing here is for you to use the recommended high ZDDP oils (and a ZDDP booster as you likely do need it) as all of the currently bottled locally available "motorcycle oils" have abandoned the old Savage engine and are now formulated to meet the needs of modern catalytic converter equipped fuel injected motorcycles. As far as your question thread turning into an oil war, it is no reflection on you. All oil questions turn into oil wars -- 'ol Bill makes sure of it. Normally we do oil wars on the churned turf of a WW1 fixed trench battlefield, but this time (since Bill was flat out fishing for responses) we took a fishing motif for this one. The mouse was Bill, struggling to answer all them little fishies that he had called up on purpose. But I can see how you could personalize it, seeing that you had no idea what sort of chaos that could come from your innocent question. But remember, it wasn't you in the water, it was Billum. And, this was a nicer kinder oil war BTW -- no flame throwers nor nuclear weapons were used as was done in times past. ================== And for those who have lingering doubts about the one legged guy in the float chair, do you have any idea at all how DURN BIG them little swarming toothy fishies can get once they get 10 or more years of age on them while living in a larger river? Scary, ain't it? This is the swarming red belly pirana "all growed up" at 10-15 years old ..... http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQA8dl47UEoDNq3qg2WYt0LMf4bdw7xUzQAiIW2sYpFW9itmTuRww ..... and this is it's deep river cousin, the tiger fish (which just keeps on growing and getting bigger, and bigger, and bigger) http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSegnEmVg5As19zCUhVzrJdDOpm-9FOUD5cnDw7jseWIoPz5pZ |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/07/12 at 10:33:57 393237376D6C5B0 wrote:
+2 |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/12 at 10:41:47 Bill, do you remember what the last guy who went to a Suzuki dealership and asked them about a ZDDP rich oil got told? "Huh?" Suzuki brand oil is a 800 ppm SM car oil, currently rated at MA2 (good for catalytic converter equipped bikes, but not any good for the split rocker flat tappet Savage). ================================== Dude, you are also voting +1 and +2 at the same time on your own comment. This is sorta cheat'n ain't it -- especially since there was only one white mouse and he isn't around any more to do any voting. Or are you voting once for each of the major mouse pieces? If so, you can wait a day and vote lots & lots more times. :D |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/12 at 11:04:56 Unless Bill has something more substantial to say than +2, maybe we should move on to the sentencing stage of things. Calling the KANGAROO KOURT into session .... (Hizzhonour Justin the Just presiding) Your Honor, Bill has fished him up yet another oil war while offering NO FACTS or DATA of any sort to support his position. Indeed, he never could seem to find his position although he did flip his one liner baits around with abandon and he got him a small swarm of fishies to respond. I propose we revoke his fishing liscense -- penalty on next occurrence is for the moderators to take his fishing pole away from him just as soon as he starts to flippin' up yet another oil war. What say you, your Honor? (If your Honor wishes, you can borrow my wire clippers and my small pliers to get that nasty #3 treble hook out of your lips so you can speak the sentence clearly without being in any pain.) ;) |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/07/12 at 16:00:06 I would use suzuki oil before a oil developed for a diesel engine depending on the fuel to help lubricate the engine,Its just common sense. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/12 at 16:11:13 4F4441411B1A2D0 wrote:
Please explain .... elaborate, even. Your Klotz was initially developed in two stroke engines that depended on the fuel to help lubricate the engine, not Rotella. "depending on the fuel to help lubricate the engine,Its just common sense."???? Stretch it out a little, fill in a few of the aching big gaps in this statement. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/07/12 at 16:27:07 I went to Wal Mart today,Went up to the automobile counter ask if they had motorcycle oil,they said no they used to but there wasn't enough demand for it.Went over and looked at the oil,And guess what they had OF's diesel oils. ;D ;D ;D.I didn't tell them I new of a guy that used that in motorcycles,Didn't want them to laugh at me and think I was dumber than I look. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by rfw2003 on 09/07/12 at 16:32:12 616A6F6F3534030 wrote:
Guess you really are so dense that you can't even read the Rotella bottles. They are not Diesel oils, they are in fact Heavy Duty Engine Oils. HDEO's can be used in both gas and diesel engines. RF |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/07/12 at 16:48:29 37233277757576450 wrote:
Guess you really are so dense that you can't even read the Rotella bottles. They are not Diesel oils, they are in fact Heavy Duty Engine Oils. HDEO's can be used in both gas and diesel engines. RF[/quote] Look up Shell diesel oil see what you come up with,Look up shell motorcycle oil see what you come up with. That OK, Klotz has motorcycle oil and they have diesel oil too. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/12 at 17:54:10 Oh my, the stuff Bill will make up completely out of his own head and then go type it into his keyboard ..... Bill, this is a simple Walmart search for motorcycle oil ..... http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?ic=16_0&search_query=motorcycle+oil I can refine it for just my store and it looks like this: http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?ic=16_0&search_query=motorcycle+oil&pref_store=1238&tab_value=Store&clicked_tab_value=Store As you can see, Walmart shows that it stocks 3 different motorcycle oils at my store, one is good for roller cam roller rocker dry clutch Harleys and the other two are good for wet clutch Savages with antique style split rocker flat tappets. :D |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by verslagen1 on 09/07/12 at 17:55:07 5A4E5F1A18181B280 wrote:
If it weren't for this, no would talk to bill, so... |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/07/12 at 18:01:59 Verslagen, I think we should start clipping Bill's casting line every time he starts bait casting him up another oil war. Whirrrrrrrr ....... plunk ! crank crank crank <clip> ....... silence Since it's trollish baiting... YES!-v1 |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/07/12 at 18:30:54 45666E6C6F66666F780A0 wrote:
I looked up your walmart motorcycle oil they showed motorcycle oil then a diesel oil5w/30w rotella,Thats what I've been telling you. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Gyrobob on 09/07/12 at 19:14:15 Who cares whether or not we can ever get bill enlightened? We (except for bill) all know the following: -- Rotella T6 is validated as a motorcycle oil for our motorcycles -- No oil works better -- Some may work as well, but cost many times as much -- Rotella T6 is widely available -- We have enough engineering expertise around here to stay on top of the zddp situation in Rotella T6 I'll keep using Rotella T6, mixed with 3 oz of Redline per gallon, until someone here brings up new information. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by ToesNose on 09/08/12 at 04:31:46 49777C616C616C0E0 wrote:
The issue is when new people come on looking for facts instead of biased opinions they get Bill thrown in the mix and don't know how to deal with it :o |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Charon on 09/08/12 at 04:38:40 Is there any way you could set the forum software to automatically add a warning to Bill's posts? Something on the order of a signature block? |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/12 at 04:50:24 Mysterious has a broad range of things he could do, including stopping Bill from posting in Rubber Side Down. But, frankly, none of that is going to happen. I've run out of ways to creatively "Kill Bill" so I guess it's time start to clip the one-liners. And let's face it -- part of the issue is my frustration in having to endlessly correct his nonsense "presented as fact" to new persons. My frustration, Justin's, Charon's, Verslagen's -- the list goes on. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Gyrobob on 09/08/12 at 06:20:13 Quote:
zackly |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Uno-Lung on 09/08/12 at 07:07:42 Biased opinions? Snicker... What’s a noober to do? Research and form their own opinions. It’s a HDMO so it will be Okay,. No, it maybe ok is the correct answer and this forum is biased toward the Rotella T products and has not addressed the over cleaning of the cylinder walls by the mother load of calcium and magnesium in the TBN package aimed at the diesel application Shell is shooting for in the Rotella products. Not all additive packages for TBN and ZDDP are created equal. This next link, while aged and done by Amsoil, does not include the Mod’s sweetheart – mainly because Oldteller T is not a motorcycle oil. http://bestoil4you.com/files/MC_Oil_Study.pdf More evidence that TBN if not formulated for motorcycles is detrimental to cylinder walls. The level of detergents and other additives is higher for diesel, to combat the higher soot levels of diesel engines and take advantage of the difference in the catalytic converter in diesels. In a gas engine, diesel oil's greater concentration of detergent, or scrubbing agent, can remove manufacturer's deposits on the cylinder wall that help seal the combustion gases. This can lead to smoking inside the engine, which can in turn damage the catalytic converter source: http://www.ehow.com/about_6386085_difference-diesel-engine-motor-oil_.html TBN is the measurement of the oils reserve alkalinity to fight off acid that forms during the combustion process. If something is neural it is neither acid or alkaline – basic ninth grade chemistry. While we don’t want acid in our engines, the lowest we should let the TBN go is 2 or 4. Of course, with the engine we are talking about holds two quarts and not gallons, like road diesels, the TBN really isn’t a number that is that very important to us unless we are going for extended drain intervals. The fallacy that we need high base numbers and it measures the additive packages is kind of a misnomer and misunderstood. TBN measures the alkaline detergent. (Calcium (Ca) and Magnesium (Mg) are the additives blended with oil to neutralize acids and acid by-products) that are used up by the combustion and blow-by of fuel that contaminates the crankcase oil. Low sulfur gasoline and now ultra low sulfur diesel fuel also help in the fight against acid attacks, and are the main reasons there are so many oils the can be called universal (mix fleet) concoctions (ie. Rotella Turd). |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/08/12 at 07:11:22 This can lead to smoking inside the engine, which can in turn damage the catalytic converter . I sure hope I dont hafta buy a new one O them,, |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Gyrobob on 09/08/12 at 08:57:45 I agree, JOG. Also, despite the official statements at the end of the Amsoil study, how much credibility can you put in a study financed by Amsoil that finds Amsoil is the best oil? This is a great statement, as well: The level of detergents and other additives is higher for diesel, to combat the higher soot levels of diesel engines and take advantage of the difference in the catalytic converter in diesels. In a gas engine, diesel oil's greater concentration of detergent, or scrubbing agent, can remove manufacturer's deposits on the cylinder wall that help seal the combustion gases. This can lead to smoking inside the engine, which can in turn damage the catalytic converter. It references catalytic converters and damage to the manufacturers' deposits on cylinder walls. I think my bike is not burdened with either of those concerns. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by verslagen1 on 09/08/12 at 09:50:12 +1 to JOG and Gyr and I find the entire Uno post w/out merit of a substantial reply. another one's that's arguing for the sake of arguing. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by rfw2003 on 09/08/12 at 10:07:46 584B5C5D424F494B401F2E0 wrote:
+1 I agree as well |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Uno-Lung on 09/08/12 at 10:35:01 In a gas engine, diesel oil's greater concentration of detergent, or scrubbing agent, can remove manufacturer's deposits on the cylinder wall that help seal the combustion gases Maybe not the manfacturer's deposits, but the engine's deposits that help seal for compression. Therein contains hook, boyz. I put as much credibility in Amsoil being the best as I do Rotella T. Picking on the cat portion is pretty much without merit, and just because someone disagrees with the hive mind doesn't mean that it's just for the sake of arguing. Your Shell zeal may have blinded you to the fact that your hurting your cylinder walls. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Gyrobob on 09/08/12 at 10:45:34 Looks like we touched a nerve,... |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/08/12 at 12:47:16 + 1 |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Charon on 09/08/12 at 13:03:09 I'd be interested to know just what "manufacturer's deposits" are being referenced. And which manufacturer? The engine manufacturer? The oil manufacturer (who would be unlikely to put something in the oil which would remove deposits intentionally left by the oil)? The fuel manufacturer? The manufacturer of the piston or rings, if they are not made by the engine manufacturer? Something isn't making much sense. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/12 at 14:08:11 Click on Uno-Lung's name, down at the bottom of his specs is his "check Uno-Lung's last 25 posts" -- when you review his entire post history end to end it is obvious that Uno-Lung only exists as somebody's sock puppet, so you understand a position of editing or deleting his comments upon sight as troll food, which I will promptly go and do. Is there any merit to the excess detergency thing? Yes, there is history of people saying don't use full diesel oils in old V8's as the old pleated rubber main seals depended on a sludge build up to work correctly. Removing all the sludge did cause oil consumption in these older V8 style engines. Performance issues are a mixed bag. Muscle cars running actual races don't use any detergents at all, as their oil gets changed at races end and ANY performance loss is anathma to a racer. All race oils sold as race oils lack long distance detergent packages as racers don't need them and don't want them. Top fuel dragsters making 2,000 hp out of a blow fueler actually have some decent discussions on the evils of detergent oil on their forums (to them a 1-2% potential loss in hp means not winning after all). Filter Uno's real points through a few reality check filters though, first in Rotella we are using a HDEO instead of a full diesel oil and Rotella is formulated and approved for use in gasoline engines (and is tested and approved for motorcycle engines). Next, the whole world uses this stuff all the time, and if any detremential effects were out there they would have page after page written on them on bike sites and on auto diesel sites and on BITOG. So, let me go take care of my favorite sock puppet's excesses and all you nice folks have a good Saturday afternoon calmly and rationally discussing your favorite subject. ;D ..... now if Uno is a sock puppet, whose hand is stuck up inside his arse ? |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/08/12 at 14:18:07 If you don't like OF oil he removes your post.If you want to know why our country is in back shape,Is because some people don't know how to handle power.OF a republican for sure. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/12 at 14:37:31 Oh, Bill -- if this were true I'd have been trimming all your stuff for years now instead of playing along with you. Sadly, I don't see any good party or canidate this year, so I will vote for the party that has more of a history of DOING some of what they promise to do. (problem is I can't seem to remember any party who actually did that in the last 20 years or so :-/ ) ;D If Uno can find some data to back up his wild statements on "removing manufacturers deposits" then he can certainly plop it down for Charon to rip apart. I always found that exercise to be worthwhile as it made me think better next time. Dig a little harder, do a little better. ================= Perhaps Bill and Uno can go find us some other oils to add to our approved oil list? That would be useful. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/08/12 at 15:10:15 Klotz,Amsoil,Mobil 1, all have premium motorcycle oil,Theres at least 30 more premium motorcycle oils.Put than on your list.Charon wants everyone to proved something,He has never proved anything or disapproved anything. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/12 at 15:35:23 Bill, we have a $12 per quart oil price ceiling which takes out all your golden foil wrapped over priced oils. If you had been paying attention, you would know that the MA2 standards change took out almost all of the high priced spreads, they COMPLIED and became useless to us Savagers. Yup, even Royal Purple. Amisol is still useful, but it is simply too expensive. Your Klotz motorcycle bottles joined the useless MA2 crew, with the MX motocross Klotz being the only one still found to be useful. But at $14.95 a quart (up to $27 a quart in some places according to Bill) the Klotz motocross isn't listed as it is too too expensive. So far, we haven't found much out there in premium motorcycle oil land. One super duper oil that rang true on its specs & data and is reasonably priced through Amazon by the case ($10 a quart on sale, $11 normal) is Redline Motorcycle, the new sexy red headed oil. Redline is on the list as it meets all the criteria. (2x overkill on the ZDDP too, which is 2,500 ppm, :D 1,000 ppm better than the very best Klotz MX oil) So yes, we will list a premium plus oil if it meets the Recommended Listing criteria. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by ralfyguy on 09/08/12 at 15:36:40 656E6B6B3130070 wrote:
My bike never ran better and stronger than since I switched to T6. It has almost 18,000 miles on it and runs like a stuck pig. Before I had "dedicated" Motorcycle oils from Valvoline, Lucas and Mobil1. My bike ran good with those, but the engine never ran as smooth and powerful as it does now with T6. You'd assume that with that mileage now it should be getting weaker and consume more oil and stuff, but the opposite is the case. The valves train on my bike is darn near as quiet as if it had hydraulic lifters. And that even though I put the hammer down a lot with high rpm. If T6 wasn't good for that motor at all, I should have blown it to pieces some several thousand miles ago. There is a difference between abusing a motor and driving it hard. Even now with 5W-40 T6, the bike uses approximately a 1/4 pint of oil in about 1,500 miles. It may be a little more in 100+ degree heat in summer when flogging it down the superslab. Again, if T6 would be no good for that motor when driven like that, it should be dead by now. BTW I run this stuff for more than 5,000 miles now and have checked the valve clearance twice in the meantime and it was still at 0.004 all the way around. So what should be wrong with using T6??? I don't give a rat's behind whether T6 is called a "Motorcycle Oil" or not, I just care for what it does, period. My bike is living proof that T6 works a charm in the Savage, and I am not the only one. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/08/12 at 15:45:40 It your bike run what you want,I will run the best in mine. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by ralfyguy on 09/08/12 at 15:54:13 797277772D2C1B0 wrote:
There you go, finally. ;D |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/08/12 at 16:05:50 I've never told any one what to run,I just tell you I run the best not the cheapest. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by ralfyguy on 09/08/12 at 16:22:39 464D48481213240 wrote:
I'm glad for you. :) |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/12 at 16:41:42 Just went through Uno's Amisol pdf -- interesting stuff with only one flaw, it is old data and all the oils in it have been reformulated in the last few months, so all the rankings are sorta moot right now. And yes, I agree with Charon that the tests were selected to make Amisol look "maximum good" (along with the oils that were selected to be tested). I especially liked the fact they didn't bother to test synthetics against synthetics but threw in a bunch of dino's for the fun of it. ;) Here is another example of Amisol's comparison of their full synthetic against the old Rotella T to make Amisol look good. What I found interesting is that all the oils stayed in grade and Amisol had to fuel dilute them by 2% and then run the shear test TWICE to get the Rotella to go down to the edge of grade. I bring the point up because (according to BITOG) the new MA2 standard allows the new MA2 rated bike oils to go out of grade with only ONE test run and NO fuel dilution. (this sucks, btw). http://www.synzilla.com/testimonials/Amsoil_vs_Shell_Rotella_T_5w-40_Synthetic_Diesel_Oil?gclid=CI687-CRp7ICFQfonAodimYAXA |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/08/12 at 16:53:26 I looked at that,thats Amsoil diesel,the s40s not a diesel so that doesn't mean anything. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/12 at 17:07:17 You are right Bill, it is a much more strenuous test than any gasoline engine oil should have to pass. And our new MA2 gasoline engine bike oils aren't required to do even one test pass on the normal old wimpy nozzle test and stay in grade, they can drop out of grade after only one little bitty weak-arsed gasoline engine oil shear test. But then folks will remember that Rotella could do the nastier version (the Amisol shear test) twice over and that was after it was intentionally cut with 2% diesel oil and it still hung in there and stayed in grade. Exceptional shear performance when viewed from a Savage perspective, right? Folks can get tidbits of good data out of Amisol's skewed snake oil testing if they look down deeper and think a bit. :) |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Charon on 09/08/12 at 17:42:33 I just browsed through that AMSOIL pdf, too. I noted that it was from 2009, which is likely well before the latest catalytic-converter-driven reformulations. I also noted the absence of Rotella - either version - and the absence of Klotz. Rotella's absence I can understand, because I believe Rotella was only JASO MA rated after the AMSOIL test, and thus would not have been promoted as a motorcycle oil by Shell. I have to guess that Klotz was either not noticed by the buyers, or was considered to be such a niche product (meaning almost insignificant sales) as to be ignored. In any case we have no data comparing either product with the tested oils. The other thing I noticed was AMSOIL's statement that there was little correlation between the amount of ZDP and the results of the wear tests. I am not too sure how to interpret that. Perhaps neither the ball-bearing wear test nor the gear wear test correlate well to the wear in flat-tappet systems. Perhaps ZDP is not the only important factor. To be fair, I would expect a test funded by an oil maker to be so set up as to favor that maker's oil. At the same time, the only way I can see to skew these test results is by weighting the test scores to get favorable results. In this case they appear to have weighted each factor equally, so price carries the same weight as wear. Without doing a lot more research than I feel like doing, I will trust that they conducted their tests in accordance with industry standards. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/08/12 at 19:02:47 If it was the four ball test you were referring to, it likes higher viscosity and film strength for "better results". It is a hydrodynamic test, mocking a plain bearing con rod under severe loads. As I think I understand it, the four balls go into continuous contact under a variable (but increasing) load until the film strength collapses at some known point. Since the balls are in continous contact, ZDDP has no chance to replace its boundary layer and as such does worst in this test than in others. ZDDP for example works best on tappets, which are occasionally loaded to film failure with time to recover between the load induced failures. This is barrier film activity and really has no test rig other than lots & lots of miles inside an in-use engine. Since you get to pick the 4 ball loading top point, you can stop the loading increase at a level where your Amisol does well and the others start to fail. You simply avoid testing oils that have a higher yeild point than your oil does and you don't mention the test you are using commonly gets used in testing heavy gear oils and that the rotational loading you are using are ridiculously high compared to anything oil inside a roller bearing Savage crank assembly will ever see. Above inferences sourced from BITOG's information on 4 ball testing. Note that simple old Shaffers dino does well on this test, more so than most synthetics. Why, I haven't got a clue. Note that BITOG refers to it as a "snake oil test", once again the why isn't completely known. Thick viscosity additives (Lucas, STP) like this test as they do very well on it, showing a clear before and after difference. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm Now, apart from Amisol's "snake oil" 4 ball testing, this is the way the oil industry tests shear down in the real tests that get published by them. The shear stability of an oil is measured by using both ASTM test methods D445 and D5275. First, the viscosity of an engine oil is measured. Then, the oil is exposed to severe shearing conditions by repeatedly pumping it through a specially-sized diesel fuel injection nozzle at high pressure. After shearing the oil, its viscosity is measured again. The percentage of viscosity lost is determined by comparing the second viscosity measurement with the original viscosity measurement. ;) I find these differences in test methods to be educational, don't you? |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Uno-Lung on 09/09/12 at 06:34:38 Looks like we touched a nerve,...[/Gyrobob] Oh, contraire. I think if you look at all the info and effort that has been expended – I struck a nerve. I have provided two links that inform us that excessive TBN scrubs the cylinder walls leading to problems. OF parades out his dog and pony show out about antique V8s having this exact problem of over cleaning, and what are we talking about? An antique motor that is very akin to those old V8s. When you put this extra additive load in a gasoline engine, the effects can be devastating to performance. The detergent will work as it is designed and try to clean the cylinder walls. This can have an adverse effect on the seal between the rings and liner, resulting in lost compression and efficiency. source: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28576/comparing-gasoline-diesel-engine-oils- In a gas engine, diesel oil's greater concentration of detergent, or scrubbing agent, can remove manufacturer's deposits on the cylinder wall that help seal the combustion gases source: http://www.ehow.com/about_6386085_difference-diesel-engine-motor-oil_.html Charon, I believe the manufacturer's deposits they are talking about are like Nikasil and other coatings like SCEM (Suzuki Composite Electro-chemical Material). While our big single doesn’t have those kind of deposits it does have natural combustion deposits that help with the seal between the rings and the cylinder wall and wear. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil I have tried to refrained from attacking anyone in this post. However, OF has called me a sock, which he knows is not true – IP is logged – and his convoluted reasons for butchering my posts because he thinks I am a sock is a grievous abuse of power and an attempt to censor opinions that do not jive with his Rotella colored glasses. I have contributed with posts in the tech/doc/ref thread on brass plug removal. I am only interested in my 650 savage’s well being. I’m sorry, OF, you are a great asset to this site, and please except my apology for causing you extra work. But it is my opinion that high TBN is detrimental to our antique engines. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/09/12 at 07:04:23 Reading that stuff would make a guy wonder.. I guess then there would be only one way to really know. If someone has enough ( & what IS enough?) miles on one, running Rotella, And there are no compression, oil consumption, blowby type problems,,then could we safely say Rotella works fine? If anyone needs to know, its me, cuz, Ive got 2 motorcycles, 2 lawmowers, & a pickup I cant afford to injure. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Charon on 09/09/12 at 07:32:57 I had not considered the possibility that AMSOIL might have avoided testing oils that outperform its own oil, or for that matter testing them and omitting the results from its paper. Tests such as those are attempts to reproduce in the laboratory some of the results from the "real world." The lubricants and the machinery in which those lubes are used form a complex system with a hell of a large number of variables. Tests attempt to do in a short time in easily reproducible circumstances what might take years to discover in the field. As such, their results are limited and subject to a lot of interpretation. Reciprocating internal combustion engines all have one characteristic in that they all wash a small amount of unburned fuel past the rings into the crankcase, where that fuel contaminates the lubricating oil. Some of the fuel is completely unburned; some partially burned. Gasoline engines, once warmed up, usually have oil temperatures high enough to evaporate away most of the gasoline, reducing the contamination. Diesel fuel requires a considerably higher temperature to evaporate, so most of it probably remains in the oil. Both gasoline and diesel engines produce water as a result of combustion and some of the water ends up in the oil. Both also produce soot, which is particles of unburned carbon, some of which ends up in the oil. Water combines with all sorts of stuff in the exhaust. Oxides of nitrogen form various nitric and nitrous acids; oxides of sulfur form sulphuric and sulphurous acids; other stuff in either the fuel or the oil form other corrosives. The TBN (Total Base Number) is a number representing alkalinity, which helps neutralize those acids. A greater TBN is said to neutralize more acids, allowing a longer oil change interval. The comments about "natural combustion deposits" make me think in the same terms as seasoning a frying pan. But the only places where I have seen those "natural combustion deposits" have been places such as the head and the top of the piston, in ring grooves, and other places where they are considered undesirable. I have never seen them on the walls of the cylinder, where they are mechanically scraped off every time the rings pass. And that is the only place where they might even conceivably aid in improving compression. Edited to add: On further thought, those "natural combustion deposits" actually will increase compression over time. They form a layer atop the piston and inside the other parts of the combustion chamber. That layer mechanically reduces combustion chamber volume, which in turn will increase the compression ratio. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/09/12 at 10:27:33 & truckers get a million miles on them, & cars run 300,000 pretty regularly now, & when we were kids, a car with 100,000 on it was considered Used Up.. & some of Charons post pointed out a few of the things engines are assaulted by that makes the fact that they run more than a few hundred miles amazing to me,,I guess thats part of why I am so enthralled by reciprocating engines. A slug, racing up & down in a hole, with special made Rings that scrape on the wall & they do that for years & years & millions & millions of cycles & they dont just grab & break or gall together.. I am A Mazed at how long an engine lasts, |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by bill67 on 09/09/12 at 13:40:07 JOG does the diesel fuel help lube the cylinder walls at all? |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/09/12 at 17:15:36 Bill, when you look at Amisol's published diesel tests (top chart here) http://www.synzilla.com/testimonials/Amsoil_vs_Shell_Rotella_T_5w-40_Synthetic_Diesel_Oil?gclid=CI687-CRp7ICFQfonAodimYAXA it shows that small percentages of diesel fuel getting loose in the system is a STRONG DETRIMENT to all of the various oil's viscosity performances. Unburned fuel is a detriment in all engines, not a helper. Gasoline contamination also hurts oil performance and it lowers viscosity too, most UOA's report gasoline contamination if found as it is a concern. Neither gasoline nor diesel fuel are considered "helpful" to their engine oil. Remember though, Gasoline is much more volatile than diesel fuel. Check out the pumps at your local gas station -- spilled diesel on the pump nozzle holder doesn't even evaporate when the sun hits it. Gasoline that does get into your engine oil does evaporate out of your sump and into your blow-by system by way of the "huff" tube to the air box. The gasoline in your oil does evaporate sooner than the water that also gets into your oil. Both do evaporate when your bike sump gets up to full operating temperature. (over positive 212o F boiling point for the water, only 90-100 degrees boiling point for the gasoline) Our sump gets up to 220-250o at road speeds. This is why short stop and go driving that doesn't heat your engine up all the way is considered bad for your car's engine and it requires the shorter "extreme duty" oil change interval that your car manufacturer lists in your owner's manual. ===================== The fact that Rotella is designed to keep it's viscosity range when contaminated with fuel isn't a bad thing for our Savages. It means is is NOT LIKE the modern MA2 bike oils that ARE allowed to drop out of viscosity range after one (1) nozzle viscosity test run when they are virgin & uncontaminated -- Rotella won't drop out of viscosity range even when it gets 2% fuel contaminated even after being tested TWICE as long as normally required on the harsher Kurt Oban test (Amisol data). UOA tests commonly show Rotella to still be hanging in there on viscosity grade at the end of some pretty extended drain intervals on touring bikes. ===================== If you guys are arguing that large TBN numbers make up some sort of undefined cylinder wall problem, then you are going to LOVE the new Calcium/Magnesium additive packages that are coming out in the new SN car oils. (same stuff that used to be considered "detergent" and "buffer" for acidification) These C/M additive packages will show up in MA2 bike oils soon enough as there is very little difference between SM/SN grade and the new JASO MA2 grade (and some bike oil bottles are now listing both sets of standards on their bottles). MA2 bike oils will quickly become a simple bottle change on the same car oil bottling line for some suppliers (Lucas and Suzuki come to mind). These newer SN oils don't have much ZDDP in them at all (500-700 ppm max showing up on VOAs) instead they may well start to boost organic C/M levels up to new, never before seen high levels to try to do the job ZDDP used to do. These oils would certainly have your cylinder wall "issue" if it ever existed. SN car oils and all the new cars should have the issue right now if it exists. ;) Time will tell though, people do discover new stuff all the time. What will be sad is when our newbies put these new bike oils into their Savages and munch up their upper ends and then come here asking for advice about all the persistent "ticking" and "tapping" sounds they can't valve clearance adjust away. Heck, we have two of them on the RSD top page right now, now don't we? Or worse, the dealership does the oil thing for them using MA2 Suzuki oil ..... and charges them big service bucks to boot for permanently screwing up their bikes. |
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Title: Re: Oil changing question Post by Oldfeller on 09/09/12 at 20:23:37 07242C2E2D24242D3A480 wrote:
Now, here are several VOA sheets illustrating the points made above. and only one of these is a bike oil, so don't get tripped up by that, just ignore any weight/viscosity data mentioned and pick by your add packs for the issues noted FIRST QUESTION -- Which oil should have the "excess detergent cylinder wall" problem (if it exists)? SECOND QUESTION -- Which oil would you rather use in your Savage? Oil #1 http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/e64699-001.jpeg Oil #2 Blackstone Labs Sample Date: 03/11/04 "Nothing too unusual showed up in this virgin Mobil oil sample. Note the slight presence of sodium, which will also be in your oil samples, should you choose to use this oil in your engines. The viscosity is just a little higher than our standard range, but it's still okay. The TBN read 10.8." Measured/ Universal Average Aluminum.........2.................1 Chromium.........0.................0 Iron.............2.................1 Copper...........0.................0 Lead.............0.................0 Tin..............0.................0 Molybdenum......79................35 Nickel...........0.................0 Manganese........0.................0 Silver...........0.................0 Titanium.........0.................0 Potassium........0.................0 Boron..........195................57 Silicon..........6.................4 Sodium...........6.................3 Calcium.......2540..............2082 Magnesium.......16...............102 Phosphorus....1282...............888 Zinc..........1613..............1003 Baruim...........0.................0 Oil #3 http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/mklinuxdude/VOA/e64700-001.gif And lastly, Oil #4 the most modern oil of the group is a current 5w30 SN grade car oil ALUMINUM 0 CHROMIUM 0 IRON 1 COPPER 0 LEAD 0 TIN 0 MOLYBDENUM 2 NICKEL 0 MANGANESE 0 SILVER 0 TITANIUM 0 POTASSIUM 1 BORON 7 SILICON 2 SODIUM 0 CALCIUM 1813 MAGNESIUM 1324 PHOSPHORUS 412 ZINC 490 BARIUM 0 TBN 7.5 SUS VISCOSITY @ 210 ºF 63.0 Flashpoint F 420 (note: this last one gets "disbelieved" a bit by the Bob folks as they really can't see how it could possibly work and they are waiting for paired VOA & UOA reports -- it is a completely new ad pack technology to them) |
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