SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1346696164

Message started by RidgeRunner13 on 09/03/12 at 11:16:02

Title: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 09/03/12 at 11:16:02

This totally innocent visual post has done what anything car tire related generally does, so -- if you want to take part in the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR then get your kevlar underwear on and get your FACTS and DATA in order.

Your "opinion" is worthless in a RSD declared Car Tire War, your FACTS and DATA should be backed up with a source link. Watch out when quoting your "experts" as they will be forced to show their experience using car tires personally so as to become an expert.

have fun, keep it clean and above the belt OF

===========================

This is a unique view of a car tire on a m/c. I shot it with the camera mounted on my trailer axle.This was shot in 720HD on a 32 gig micro sd card in a Midland XTC camera. $65 on Ebay, or about $90 at Wal-Mart. 8-) :o

http://www.youtube.com/embed/BXasxVxsza8

[media] [/media]

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by verslagen1 on 09/03/12 at 11:33:02

Nice camera work

this one came up after yours...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/BXasxVxsza8

nice tire, responded well

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by bill67 on 09/03/12 at 12:03:55

Nice tire responds of both ::)

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Dave on 09/03/12 at 12:19:39

WOW! Sure is flat down in that part of the country!

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/03/12 at 12:27:27

What happens if ya get in a spot & need to lean on over & the ball in the cup of the hitch cant swivel any further? Can ya get there before ya have Hard Parts dragging?

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 10/13/12 at 18:56:15

OK, I'm going to try to post again from my new laptop, just in case the problem last time was my old computer. This is the only site I was having a problem with but you never know.

I'll start with JOG & then answer OFs' question from another thread.

If you watch the video closely you will see white drag marks appear on the concrete on several of the turns I make, even scooting the rear end on one right hander. I've never had a problem because I usually don't corner like that pulling the trailer. It's the same trailer I pulled with a Savage for 8 years with no issues.

For Oldfeller, the tire on there is a Vredestein Comtrac 175/75R16 made in Holland that cost me $158 delivered. The oem Brigdestone was down to the wear bars at 6250 miles when it picked up a nail. The current tire now has over 15k on it now & looks like this.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/Pappygt13/V-StarMods795.jpg

Considering I have put +21k on this bike in less than 3 years & should get at least another 15k out of it, & oem tires are about the same $$$, I think it's a bargain. The fact that it outhandles the oem in every way is just a big + in my book.

Preview worked, now I'll see if it posts. 8-)

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/13/12 at 19:43:28

Thanks for the reply. I missed the scuff marks, prolee shoulda heard them go down, I was busy looking at the scenery & thinking what a fine place to be,

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Oldfeller on 10/13/12 at 23:19:03

I have never been disappointed in the curve handling ability of the car tires I have used. I realize I use a third of the tire on the left side when going left, a third to half in the center when going straight and a third on the right when going right. Modern radial car tires have a rounded enough profile to make these transitions seamlessly as you roll from one side to another.

Still, the actual amount of rubber in the contact patch with the road is LARGER than it is on a bike tire because the car tire side wall flexes to allow the tread to lay a bigger contact patch flat on the road better than a hard sided bike tire can ever do. The car tire contact patch size is always about twice what the bike tire can give you in any given angle of attack, even in the way heeled over attack angles you think of as Dragon Riding.

Car tire wet grip (even in the driving rain) has always been good. MUCH much better than some harder bike tires as a matter of fact.

High speed running is the only issue that I have ever had on my old Nankang car tire, and that was a function of rear tire alignment causing a high speed feedback with the front end which apparently can occur with bike tires as well.

My current Nexen tire does not have this issue -- Nexen also grips better than the Nankang ever did, I can't get the rear brakes to engage strong enough to get the tire to break free in braking (which was easier to do with the Nankang as it would break free and squall like a car tire squalls if you mashed it good).

Indeed, by slicing away the excess rubber tubeless flap material on the Nexen you can get the mounting pressures down closer to "normal motorcycle mounting" types of air pressures, but still bead popping pressure is still high enough at nearly 60 psi to be up in "the bead breakage danger range" and as such car tires cannot be recommended as safe to be put on a Savage rear rim.

And this is WITH using all the speciality tricks like using grease on the stubborn sections of bead.

>:( ..... if it wasn't for the mounting dangers involved more car tires would likely get used on bikes. But it is what it is and only a few souls will take the risks to put one on.

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Cavi Mike on 10/14/12 at 00:24:45

Nice "tire response?" Seriously? You're on a 31hp cruiser with most of the weight over the rear wheel AND a trailer yet you still managed to get loose over a little bit of dust and you people call this "good response?"

I am actually convinced by this video to NEVER put a car tire on my bike. Ever.

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Demin on 10/14/12 at 05:17:25

You want to see a car tire,look at some of the bikes that used to come out of BBW(Borgett Bike Works)in Pheonix.He used to use Viper tires before you could buy 200,250,360,400 tires.

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 10/14/12 at 08:43:58

032136290D292B25400 wrote:

CM, I would NEVER want you to put a car tire on your bike either, but I'm convinced you NEVER watched the video I posted.
If you did, you would realize in the video I'm NOT riding a 31hp cruiser. I'm riding my V-Star 950T which is closer to 60hp & 700lbs. It also did NOT get loose over a little dust, I scraped the floorboards beyond their ability to fold up & slid the bike on the steel floorboard mounts. The floorboards have sacrificial metal strips on the bottom that let you know you're getting close to the limits. I intentionally when beyond that warning just to demonstrate how easily it is to catch a slide with that tire.
With that tire it is much easier to modulate rear braking to the point of lock up, & even lock & release with out losing control. In the rain, it throws a rooster tail that keeps others from following to close, which is good since I can stop quicker than my friends' who have m/c tires.

I am in NO way advocating YOU should do anything YOU don't feel is safe, but if you're going to comment at least get the facts straight.

BTW, Oldfeller, that tire went on & seated at less than 50 psi. I use dynabeads for balance & have taken it over 100 mph with no issues, & cruised at 85+ by GPS for miles at a time.

I will NEVER go back to a m/c tire on the 950, the car tire is just better all around for me. 8-)

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/Pappygt13/NewTxMile5-28-11048.jpg

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Cavi Mike on 10/14/12 at 14:28:17

At 1:50 in you got sideways. At that point I stopped watching the video. If somewhere after that point you mentioned that it was a V-Star, my mistake. I also don't care if you think I know nothing about distinguishing the make/model of your bike by only being able to see the bottom half of the very back of it. If you really expect me to believe you can tell what any bike is going down the road by the view in that video, I'm going to laugh in your face.

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by tizzyfit on 10/14/12 at 18:10:44

447F7271734463787873642725160 wrote:

[quote author=032136290D292B25400 link=1346696164/0#8 date=1350199485]Nice "tire response?" Seriously? You're on a 31hp cruiser with most of the weight over the rear wheel AND a trailer yet you still managed to get loose over a little bit of dust and you people call this "good response?"

I am actually convinced by this video to NEVER put a car tire on my bike. Ever.

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by tizzyfit on 10/14/12 at 18:13:47

4466716E4A6E6C62070 wrote:

You couldn't tell by looking at the bike it wasn't a LS650/S40? Gee, the exhaust pipe, on the RIGHT SIDE, should have been a clue. Then again, maybe not........... ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Oldfeller on 10/14/12 at 19:10:02

576C61626057706B6B60773436050 wrote:

BTW, Oldfeller, that tire went on & seated at less than 50 psi. I use dynabeads for balance & have taken it over 100 mph with no issues, & cruised at 85+ by GPS for miles at a time.

Hey, that's great news -- and I bet your 16" rim on the big bike is a tubeless rim too, isn't it? I think the darksider guys on goldwings use 16" tires too (and they use a LOT of them darksider tires on them goldwings, too)

I wish we had one like it on the Savage, it would make life easier all the way around. But still, we all do with what we have to work with.

:)

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Oldfeller on 10/14/12 at 19:26:12

PS If you guys want a car tire war, go to Rubber Side Down and put a named CAR TIRE WAR thread up there and go at it using normal list war rules.

This is Cafe, where everything is kept light and nice.

Your tech head population lives over in Rubber Side Down .... they are the ones who likes to discuss them techie things like sidewall flex and gripping patch zones.

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by MMRanch on 10/14/12 at 19:44:52

Ridge runner

I'm with ya , on running a car tire. They grip more road ! , They Haul more weight and last longer while they do it !

On our 2011 Dragon Run I passed one of those high-horse-powered sportbikes that didn't want to be passed and then chased his buddy in front of him who tried desperataly to get away but couldn't , all with a BFGoodrich Radial TA. on the back of a 30hp Savage.
disclaimer: We doin't drive like that all the time (just in the "Heat of the Moment".) ;)

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Cavi Mike on 10/14/12 at 20:37:36

504D5E5E5D424D50240 wrote:

You couldn't tell by looking at the bike it wasn't a LS650/S40? Gee, the exhaust pipe, on the RIGHT SIDE, should have been a clue. Then again, maybe not........... ;D ;D ;D

What? The exhaust IS on the right side of an LS650. Even if it wasn't, you should be aware this is a forum full of people that modify their bikes - many to the point where they're almost unrecognizable from a stock bike.

Also, if this thread should be kept "nice" and not full of a debate, it shouldn't be about something as serious as putting a car tire on a motorcycle. This is a Rubber Side Down topic, not a cute kitty pic thread. Post this stuff in the proper forum next time.

No one is gonna tell me to "be nice" when a salesman shows up at my door when there is a No Soliciting notice on it. It's no different when someone posts serious motorcycle related topics in the chill area. You made your bed.

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Cavi Mike on 10/14/12 at 20:40:47

5B495B49445758555E160 wrote:

On our 2011 Dragon Run I passed one of those high-horse-powered sportbikes that didn't want to be passed and then chased his buddy in front of him who tried desperataly to get away but couldn't , all with a BFGoodrich Radial TA. on the back of a 30hp Savage.

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 10/15/12 at 00:49:26

I posted the video in Cafe because it was not Savage related. I thought anyone watching it could tell even from that angle that was not a Savage, & if they couldn't the sound of a v-twin is certainly nothing like a single.
I'm not sure how pulling a trailer is supposed to help, I can assure you it doesn't. I only pointed out that was not a Savage, CM is the only one choosing to start a "war" over it.
If you consider that little 'scoot' getting sideways, you really haven't seen anything close to what I'm capable of. As I stated before, that was a DEMONSTRATION & not the way I normally ride, & the slip was a result of hard parts of the bike contacting the concrete, NOT the tire slipping. The tire has more grip than is possible to use on that bike due to the low ground clearance.
If you feel the need to comment on something feel free, just make sure you have your facts right because I can & will defend my position. I did NOT come knocking on anyones' clearly marked NO SOLICITING door.
If someone chooses to ignore the reality of what is actually happening to post on their assumptions, I can't be responsible for that. I only see one person who has a problem.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers, that was not my intent.

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/12 at 04:45:48

Really? Cafe, light & nice? When did that start? I always thot this was the "Free for all zone" for things Not religious or political. Wanna talk about the company picnic? Heres fine,, wanna talk about your bike? Heres fine. Got a real problem with your bike? RSD mite be the place,,IMO, the cafe is just a less straight forward site, its not where Id go if I Needed an answer, but, if I wanted to post something that mite get a little off track, this is where Id go,.

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Oldfeller on 10/15/12 at 05:28:47

No Justin, that is why we made you a Religion and Politics TT zone so you guys would quit smearing the stinky stuff around in the Cafe where the nice people sit sipping tea and drinking coffee and chatting over easy on the mind non-ego wounding type stuff.

Car tire discussions get too heated, even when treated factually in RSD. The people who hate them have never (and are never) going to even entertain a discussion of positive facts and data about them, so it is pointless to even start the discussion.

This post was simply another "gee, lookit that" visual type post that went the way all car tire discussions go .... down the crapper.

Maybe we should clip off the car tire discussion part, lock the "gee, lookit that" visual cafe stuff and give a reference link to the RSD Car Tire War discussion that the clipped portion would become.

Or mebbe just move this whole thing over to RSD and rename it some ..... yeah, that sounds about right.

Thread is moved to RSD and CAR TIRE WAR #5 is offically declared

Title: Re: Unique View
Post by Oldfeller on 10/15/12 at 06:06:40

092B3C230723212F4A0 wrote:

[quote author=5B495B49445758555E160 link=1346696164/15#16 date=1350269092]On our 2011 Dragon Run I passed one of those high-horse-powered sportbikes that didn't want to be passed and then chased his buddy in front of him who tried desperataly to get away but couldn't , all with a BFGoodrich Radial TA. on the back of a 30hp Savage.

Because that was totally the tire and not the skill of the rider. Maybe someone should let MotoGP know those tires they're using are rubbish and they should all switch to car tires! What a revelation!
::)[/quote]

OK, I'll take a small poke at this one since it gets used by the anti-car tire folks all the time.

Most "track authorized" Motorcycle Race Tires used in America are built by Goodyear Racing Division in Akron, Ohio. Some are marked Goodyear, some are marked Dunlop (old curing molds). These are the tires you see in all those knee dragging, high speed shots on the racetracks here in America.

They use special kevlar fabric carcass construction and the top trade secret tread compounds used are different for the center section than for the two sides and the tri-part compound mix chosen is track specific and temperature specific and wet specific for that particular race. All the racers in that race are running the same track approved rubber and tire compounds (within 2-3 temperature grades) that they are allowed to pick between because of individual bike needs.

Why did this develop? Tires are such a big part of winning races that some racers on less developed bikes with poorer riding styles were winning races simply because they had better tires. The sport was getting out of kilter, so the ruling bodies said "same tires for everybody" to put the competition back into the race.

Goodyear sends a truck load of bike tires that are pre-produced for that race according to the individual track's history and the season of the year, then the track stewards and the crew chiefs pick "the tire" for the race out of what is in the truck that fits the best for today's race conditions.

Having a bad tire match up is a historical cause for controversy for any given race (and many riders do quote the tires as the reason for their sub par performance that day) but Goodyear has actually gotten pretty good about having the right tires in the truck for that track for that season of the year. And if they fook up a race, they do apologize profusely and bend great efforts to do better next year.

So, your typical motorcycle race tire has NO real relation to any street tire, either motorcycle or car street tire. It is a very different beast with each tire costing at least half as much as your Savage did when you bought it used (assuming you paid a bit for your bike, some of you got such good deals that it wouldn't even buy a singe race tire).

Saying "you can't do that with a car tire" is a bit ridiculous, no you can't do that with a street motorcycle tire either, not at those speeds and grip forces.

You got too many Dragon riders here who have seen Savage car tires do exactly whatever a Savage bike tire can do up on the Dragon runs. You got too many here who have switched back & forth between the two who have first hand knowledge of the handling characteristics of the two.

So, crazy expensive specialized track specific motorcycle racing tires aside, what was your point about handling again?

Source, Oldfeller -- an expert opinion from a 3 year retired Senior Quality Engineer, Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company and currently Dragon car/motorcycle tire switcher outer person (me ;D).

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/12 at 08:34:50

Awwww, whadda YOU KNow, anyways?

Im just sure I heard that exact same line on Spanky & Our Gang once..

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by ToesNose on 10/15/12 at 08:58:37

In that case I'll retort with "AWWWW APPLESAUCE!"

:D

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by Oldfeller on 10/15/12 at 10:37:19

And to make it even more fun, although I run one myself and might argue that they handle well enough, I won't recommend car tires to to anyone to be put on a Savage tube style rim because it is too stinkin' dangerous to seat the tubeless car style beads on a Savage tube style rim.

The popping the steel cored bead over the steel rim part, the last part of tire mounting, that is. Too much air pressure is needed, and when you get over 50-60 psi you are up in the danger range.

Some folks who have not taken the time to trim off the extra tubless rubber flap feature off the car tires that were headed for their Savage old style tube rim have actually gotten up to 90-100 psi that was needed to pop the bead and that is flat assed totally up into the danger range, way on up there.

So now all you "no car tires" people have some bullets you can shoot out of your rifles that might actually HIT something for a change.

==============

Pop Test Time

Why are most open class motorcycle races so short compared to open class car races?

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/12 at 11:39:37

Why are most open class motorcycle races so short compared to open class car races?

Tires. As car tires heat up, they have more mass exposed to the air & spit heat off better. Its a lot easier to keep a 4 wheeler under control with hot , greasy tires & Boyle's law , which shows a known volume going thru pressure changes due to temperature changes. Double the temp, double the pressure.,

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by Oldfeller on 10/15/12 at 11:54:19

Yes, tires -- and gas.

You can refuel a bike very quickly with a pressure can, but they have had some fires due to pressure can spew & spillage, so they try not to have them gas pit stops any more. Instead they have "heats" now mostly and you win enough heats to add up to your overall points score.

Live weenie roasts on national tv aren't good public relations, you know.

The tire guys picked up on this limitation and they built tires that would last just a bit past a heat, and since they were limiting the race lengths you could go even sticker and softer on the compounds to get even better traction levels during the actual race.

So your triple digit $$$ set of full on rear race tires only lasts an hour or so of real full speed run time ....

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by Oldfeller on 10/15/12 at 12:09:11

And, since my old company has lost the contract for supermoto I find it amusing that Bridgestone is having the same sorts of issues that Goodyear had as a "spec tire" provider for that race series.

NOBODY loves their tire mgfs when full out racing, apparently.

Them sorry assed tires sux rocks, real big un's.

;)

http://motomatters.com/analysis/2012/07/06/bridgestone_s_tire_failures_at_assen_sto.html

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/12 at 12:12:23

597A7270737A7A7364160 wrote:

Ooooh, yea,, the hazard of refueling, No Kidding,,& pit stops are a great opportunity to tangle up, too.

Back to tires..

Yea, they know the required life of a tire, so they engineer them to grip like heck & survive for the necessary amount of time, And they are installed on High Powered machines,, now, increased traction translates to increased rolling resistance to a point, right? I wonder if its enough to appreciably "eat" horsepower & decrease MPG. You mite just know that..
I Do know the effect of a corner eating up HP. I took my 750 twin Kawasaki thru a corner in 5th & it would not accelerate above 80 in that corner.

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by Oldfeller on 10/15/12 at 13:13:59

The tires grip well enough that they can brake HARD until just before apex then they roll on the power, enough to start to lift the front tire even before they finish the turn itself .....

.... mad riding skills, them riders now-a-days, wonderful bikes too.

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/12 at 13:32:12

Ohh, agreed, Mad skills, their lean angles REQuire lean angels.
But, the question I have remains, as "tack" increases, doesnt rolling resistance also increase? Is it enough to "see" it eat up HP thru a corner?
I wonder what would happen if a guy put tires of that type on one of these & hit some well known corners. Would it be slower due to the tire itself eating HP or faster, due to increases traction? My bet, considering the max lean angle & limited HP, a Savage would be slower thru the most challenging corners.

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by SALB on 10/15/12 at 14:12:22

Here's food for thought. The circumference on the edge of a motorcycle is smaller than the center, thus theoretically, the over all final drive ratio would be lower. I came to this conclusion on an under powered little 50cc scooter I used to have. It took me a while to figure out that this had to be the reason it accelerated noticeably better the more I leaned in a curve. Somebody correct me if my thinking is flawed.

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by Oldfeller on 10/15/12 at 16:04:21

Justin, super sticky tires are required for HUGE brakes and POWERFUL 100 hp accelerations out of corners.

I don't think the Savage requires super sticky tires even for our Dragon play times. I have used hard rubber sipe construction tires very successfully up on the Dragon every year I have been up there. Some were car tires, some were touring motorcycle tires, all were a hard rubber sipe construction ....

I have run one (1) normal Dunlop Cruise Master motorcycle "touring" tire and it did not last past the third day of second annual mountain trip before it was bald.

>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

So, what I really hate about super sticky normal bike tires is the fact they evaporate over just 3-4 days time when it happens to get hot up on the Dragon. I got no use for a normal motorcycle tire that charges me $50-56 a year in tire cost and can only last 2 years at most.

That is why we are tracking miles on a couple of Metzler ME 880 H series tires over on the group drop box spreadsheet -- on our Savage they will last almost as good as a car tire does.

How to get into the spreadsheet to register your tire or to punch in your new mileage and new depth of thread .....

Go to Dropbox.com https://www.dropbox.com/

Click on sign in: in the top right corner.

We have a shared generic Drop Box account called:

suzukisavage@mail.com

with password: s40boulevard

Now you click on the Public Folder when Drop Box opens up. This will open the folder with all the shared stuff in it.

You are looking for the Low Cost Mileage Contest.xls

;)

Don't forget to save the spreadsheet once you are finished punching in your stuff.

Title: Re: A Unique View on the 5th annual CAR TIRE WAR
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/12 at 17:24:29

3A393A2E38303E5B0 wrote:

Proving/disproving that thinking would require some pretty good math.
The power required to accelerate in a corner is complicated, Im sure.
The corner I couldnt get past 80 in was a pretty nice sweeper. I was on the inside edge of the asphalt. I noticed one day as I was cruisin thru that when they laid that asphalt they left a very smooth radius on the inside of it. The inside radius was very constant & it looked like I could drop into it & ride it,, so, I did, exactly One time, cuz it was a pretty tight corner for 80 MPH, Oncoming traffic saw me & pulled off the road. Hadf I come out of that little groove, I woulda been across the road I into oncoming in a second. Ohh the crazy crap of life! Well,, YOUNG life,.