|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethanol) /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1346693883 Message started by stewmills on 09/03/12 at 10:38:03 |
|
Title: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethanol) Post by stewmills on 09/03/12 at 10:38:03 So what are the opinions or experiences with fuel grades and ethanol versus non-ethanol? Are there any results that indicate going higher than 87 octane provides a smoother, cleaner, more even and cooler burn or is this just an opinion or is there evidence to the contrary? Also, is there a reason to seek out and run non-ethanol (or ethanol with an ethanol treatment) if you are burning through a tank of gas once every week or two and not letting it sit and get stale and eat up your rubber/plastic innards as ethanol seems to do? If I change from 87 octane up to a higher grade just for giggles, should I anticipate having to adjust the air mix screw to accommodate for any differences in the performance of a different grade than what it was tuned with (87 octane)? Thanks! |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/03/12 at 11:54:37 87 octane works the best,wouldn't have to change carb adjustments if you went higher.100% gas better mpg and horse power,And less chance of water been in the carb. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Dave on 09/03/12 at 12:11:08 Well....this could become a very controversial subject.....almost as bad as an oil thead. The stock engine doesn't benefit from or need any higher octane than 87. There really won't be any power increase or loss from using higher octanes you can get at normal fuel pumps. The higher octanes aren such a big increase that jetting or timing changes would be required - but you will not realize any performance increase by using them. Some claim that the higher octanes can get stale at service stations that don't sell a lot of it.....and it may sit in the tanks for a while. I imagine the higher octane tank is a bit smaller than the lower grade tank - but don't know how often it might get used and replaced. For any vehicle that is driven regularly - there seems to be little problem from ethanol fuels. Older motorcycles and boats with fiberglass fuel tanks are the exception as the ethanol can dissolve the resins. I also had trouble on a 2009 Sherco trials bike and the ethanol made the nylon (plastic) fuel tank swell and become soft. My own personal experience with ethanol suggests that equipment with carbs that sits for extended periods of down time can have problems. Tillers, leaf blowers, snow blowers, chainsaws can all sit for long periods of time....and any fuel can go bad when left in this equipment. Old pre-ethanol fuels would turn to varnish and gum everything up....while modern ethanol fuels dissolve rubber parts, rust steel parts and corrode aluminum when left too long. Engines that have diaphragm carbs tend to store better than engines with float bowls and gravity systems that can keep delivering more fuel to the float bowl as the fuel evaporates and allows the float to drop. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Gyrobob on 09/03/12 at 13:02:46 Dave says: "The stock engine doesn't benefit from or need any higher octane than 87." Exactly correct. Any engine designed to run on 87 will run best on 87. Put midgrade or premium in it, and it will not run any better and might even run worse. 87 has the most energy per volume of the three grades. Midgrade and premium lose a bit of energy to make room for anti-detonation chemicals. It is true that some higher horsepower vehicles use premium, but only because the engineers programmed the vehicle's computers to use gas with a certain propensity to detonate. So those vehicles get more power not because they use more powerful gas (which they don't), they have more power because they are tuned to use gas that has anti-detonation additives in it, and can run a greater spark advance. Putting premium in a Savage to get more power is as stupid as putting on a larger gas tank to get more power. "Got me more gas, I must have more power, now, right?!" The only time putting premium in a vehicle designed for 87 will give any improvement is when something is screwed up in the ignition systen in such a way the engine is knocking under load. In that case, premium might reduce the knocking. In this case it makes much more sense to find out what's wrong with the ignition system. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by RC on 09/03/12 at 14:28:45 Gee folks this is a 8.5 to 1 engine it shouldn't even need 87 but here in California thats the lowest we are allowed and it works great. Buying the higher priced stuff is just a waste of your money |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by arteacher on 09/03/12 at 16:13:40 Manuell Service says......"Use only unleaded gasoline of at least 87 pump octane(R/2+M/2) or 91 octane or higher if rated buy the research method. Gasoline containing MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether), less than 10% ethanol, or less than5% methanol with appropriate co-solvents and corrosion inhibitor is permissible". Manuell Owners says........"Your motorcycle requires regular unleaded gasoline with a minimum pump octane rating of 87 (R+M)/2 method) In some areas the only fuels that are available are oxygenated fuels. Oxygenated fuels which meet the minimum octane requirement and the requirements described below my be used in your motorcycle without jeopardizing the New Vehicle Limited Warranty or the emission Control System Warranty. NOTE: Oxygenated fuels are fuels which contain oxygen-carrying additives such as MTBE or alcohol. Gasoline containing MTBE Unleaded gasoline containing MTBE (Mettyl Tertiary Butyl Ether) may be used in your motorcycle if the MTBE content is not greater than 15% This oxygenated fuel does not contain alcohol. Gasoline/Ethanol Blends Blends of unleaded gasoline and ethanol (grain alcohol), also known as "GASOHOL", may be used in your vehicle if the ethanol content is not greater than 10%. Gasoline/Methanol Blends Fuel containing 5% or less methanol (wood alcohol) may be suitable for use in your motorcycle if they contain co-solvents and corrosion inhibitors.DO NOT USE fuels containing more than 5% methanol under any circumstances. Fuel system damage or motorcycle performance problems resulting from the use of such fuels are not the responsibility of Suzuki and may not be covered under the New Vehicle Limited Warranty or the Emission Control System Warranty." NOTE: To help clean the air Suzuki recommends that you use the oxygenated fuels. So Manuell says. 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/04/12 at 00:14:38 A guy we dont see much of anymore who lives down around Galveston runs premium in the heat of summer. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Gyrobob on 09/04/12 at 03:05:42 332C2A2D30370636063E2C206B590 wrote:
It's sometimes interesting to hear of the rationale for this kind of behavior. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/04/12 at 05:10:56 5769627F727F72100 wrote:
It's sometimes interesting to hear of the rationale for this kind of behavior.[/quote] Premium burns slower,thats like retarding the spark so engine runs slightly cooler with less power.Here it is I told you how it is. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by arteacher on 09/04/12 at 06:48:57 Both the service manual and the owner's manual say "at least" or "a minimum of" 87 octane, so there is nothing wrong with running a higher octane if you want to as far as Suzuki is concerned. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Cavi Mike on 09/04/12 at 07:26:09 353E3B3B6160570 wrote:
No, it doesn't. Make your arguments about oil all you want but don't start spreading misinformation like that. Octane has nothing to do with how hot or fast a fuel burns. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by tizzyfit on 09/04/12 at 07:48:31 The last 5 fill-ups, I've used regular unleaded 87 octane in hopes the gas mileage would improve enough to off-set the 10% higher cost vs. the 87 octane/ethanol fuel. My mileage has been virtually the same with both types of fuel. I realize this represents approximately 500 miles and is not scientific but I'm questioning whether I should be paying more for the unleaded fuel if it's not providing a positive gas mileage improvement. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by LANCER on 09/04/12 at 07:52:14 606B6B626E61607A7B0F0 wrote:
yep During the HEAT of the summer, IF my engine is feeling hotter than normal then I will run the higher octane fuel. Any engine with a high compression piston in it should also have a higher octane fuel to help prevent detonation. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/04/12 at 08:48:30 183A2D321632303E5B0 wrote:
No, it doesn't. Make your arguments about oil all you want but don't start spreading misinformation like that. Octane has nothing to do with how hot or fast a fuel burns.[/quote] Sorry Cave your wrong. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Dave on 09/04/12 at 09:31:04 7A7174742E2F180 wrote:
No, it doesn't. Make your arguments about oil all you want but don't start spreading misinformation like that. Octane has nothing to do with how hot or fast a fuel burns.[/quote] Sorry Cave your wrong.[/quote] I vote with Cave......Higher Octane fuels are more resistant to knocking (detonation) in higher compression engines. They don't burn hotter, or slower, and there is going to be very little difference in the way 87, 89 and 92 octane pump gas runs in our Savage. Racing fuels, leaded fuels, Avgas are all different types of fuel.....and they will react completely different than what you can buy at your local gas station. You will not find any reliable source that documents a slower burn on 89 or 92 octane pump gas........only rumors from unreliable sources. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/04/12 at 09:40:40 Dave and Cave unreliable sources. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Gyrobob on 09/04/12 at 12:06:30 Premium doesn't burn any slower. It just has additives in it to increase octane for the purpose of resisting detonation, Detonation (not pre-ignition) happens very shortly after the spark plug ignites the mixture. The mixture starts burning,.. a flame front starts heading out from the spark, but before all the mixture is burned, the remaining (unburned as yet) mixture explodes all at once due to heat and/or pressure. Higher octane fuels simply have additives (or are refined in such a way) that resists detonation. IOW, it takes an even higher pressure or temp to explode the remaining mixture all at once. Premium fuels actually have a tiny bit less energy. They are used, however, in engines with higher compression so the engine makes more power with the premium fuel because it won't detonate as easily as regular. This discussion is mostly moot. The Savage works best on regular gas, and has such a low compression ratio it'll even burn crappy third-world gas which probably has less than 87 octane. Using midgrade or premium has no effect at all, save emptying your wallet sooner. For 99% of us, we can forget about this discussion altogether, and just blissfully live out the rest of our lives buying regular gas. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Dave on 09/04/12 at 12:33:47 777C79792322150 wrote:
Bill: Here is some interesting reading from a reliable source: http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/Mythsgas1.html And here is another: http://www.roadandtrack.com/auto-news/tech/premium-fuel-futures |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/04/12 at 14:33:59 407E7568656865070 wrote:
I know what 93 octane gas is use for,You are misinformed and much as Dave and Cave |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/04/12 at 14:36:50 03080D0D5756610 wrote:
It's sometimes interesting to hear of the rationale for this kind of behavior.[/quote] Premium burns slower,thats like retarding the spark so engine runs slightly cooler with less power.Here it is I told you how it is. [/quote] |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/04/12 at 14:38:13 5C57525208093E0 wrote:
It's sometimes interesting to hear of the rationale for this kind of behavior.[/quote] Premium burns slower,thats like retarding the spark so engine runs slightly cooler with less power.Here it is I told you how it is. [/quote] [/quote] Its been that way for years. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Charon on 09/04/12 at 18:48:19 I know what 100LL avgas is for, too. But I still have trouble figuring out just exactly what Bill is trying to say. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/04/12 at 18:52:52 7D76737329281F0 wrote:
It's sometimes interesting to hear of the rationale for this kind of behavior.[/quote] Premium burns slower,thats like retarding the spark so engine runs slightly cooler with less power.Here it is I told you how it is. [/quote] This is what I'm saying |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Gyrobob on 09/04/12 at 20:28:39 5A71786B7677190 wrote:
So does bill. A little birdie told him once that premium burns slower and he has trouble letting go of that nonsense. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Cavi Mike on 09/05/12 at 03:33:45 Bill still doesn't know how to use the proper contraction of "you" and "are" but he's trying to say we're unreliable sources. He still hasn't attempted to prove his point either. Here is one of my posts where I summed up what octane is. 597B6C735773717F1A0 wrote:
With that knowledge you may now want to know exactly what the point of high-octane gas is if it doesn't have these mythical magical properties that people like bill claim they have. Engines are able to generate power by compressing a fuel-mixture before igniting it. The more you can compress your air-fuel mixture, the more power you can extract from it. That's why high-performance engines have high compression ratios. Unfortunately, low-octane fuel will auto-ignite aka 'detonate' in a high-compression engine. This is where high-octane fuels come into play. Bumping the octane rating with additives or with a better fuel means you can compress that mixture more and get more power. But you MUST compress that mixture more or else you won't get any benefits. Usually, you get adverse negative side-effects like lower gas-mileage, carbon-deposits, clogged O2 sensors and catalysts. Ignorance is an OK excuse for running high-octane in an engine not designed for it but once this has been explained to you (bill) multiple times, there is no more excuse for continuing to spew misinformation. Your naivety has become inexcusable. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/05/12 at 05:02:00 Some people just can't understand the simplest things. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by rfw2003 on 09/05/12 at 05:24:47 Here is a Myth/Fact about fuels directly from an oil company. Higher Octane gasoline does not burn slower. The Octane simply makes it harder to ignite, thus the less tendency to knock with higher compression engines and/or more advanced timing. MYTH: The higher the octane, the slower the burn. FACT: In many cases, high octane gasoline has faster burning characteristics than low octane gasoline . It is rarely slower. http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs/171.267/vp-racing-fuel- |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/05/12 at 05:36:13 rfw are you using racing fuel in your S40 and cars. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by rfw2003 on 09/05/12 at 05:44:56 Nope no need to. Compression ratio is no where near the need for a high octane fuel. R.F. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/05/12 at 05:48:03 You shouldn't use high octane gas in it unless for some reason you want it to run cooler and have less power.And less mpg. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Charon on 09/05/12 at 06:03:56 Just to slightly clarify things, it is not the compression ratio which determines engine efficiency, but the expansion ratio. Mechanically they are identical, and for some reason the compression ratio is the stated number. The effective ratios will usually be different from the mechanical ratios, as compression does not begin until the intake valve is closed and expansion ends when the exhaust valve opens. Because of differing valve timings between engines designed for different uses, the effective ratios may differ from each other in the same engine. Expansion ratio determines the efficiency, while compression ratio (along with variables such as throttle opening, engine temperature, ambient air temperature, and no doubt others) determine the temperature and pressure in the combustion chamber prior to spark firing and ignition of the fuel charge. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Charon on 09/05/12 at 06:23:22 7F7471712B2A1D0 wrote:
Come on, Bill. Show us your dyno runs and your IR temperature readings for both Regular and Premium fuels. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by SALB on 09/05/12 at 09:25:06 Wikipedia's take on octane.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating The chart at the bottom is quite interesting. Diesel is 15-25 octane, while ethanol and methanol are 108 octane. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Dave on 09/05/12 at 11:11:59 2B282B3F29212F4A0 wrote:
SALB: That is a very good article. I find it interesting that there is never any discussion about how "fast" or "hot" gasoline burns by any professional or any article written by people in the fuel field. The only people that get into those discussions are us amateurs.....and none of it is based on any facts. I also find it interesting that the only way to actually determine an octane rating is to put the fuel in a test engine that has variable compression and run it to find out. I saw a program on "How Things are Made" that was about gasoline. They showed a fellow riding a bicycle around the plant and he was gathering samples from the testing stations around the plant. He then took the samples to the lab, and they showed the test engine they used. How hot or fast a fuel burns may actaully be more dependant upon the fuel mix, as lean mixtures tend to burn hot and fast.......while rich mixtures burn slower and cooler (at least that is my amateur uninformed opinion). |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Cavi Mike on 09/05/12 at 20:01:27 715A53405D5C320 wrote:
C:R is always stated alone because it is a fixed variable. Everything else changes. There's no point in using any other number except for when making the fuel-map for the ECU. 3D3E3D293F37395C0 wrote:
That's because diesel isn't ignited, it's forced into the cylinder at the top of the compression stroke and detonates due to extreme pressure and heat. Remember back when cars used to "diesel" after you'd shut them off? That was detonation keeping them running and that's exactly how a diesel engine works. There are no spark-plugs in a diesel engine. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by SALB on 09/05/12 at 20:41:25 Cavi, diesel is ignited, it's called compression ignition, where super high compression ratios superheat the air, causing ignition of the fuel as it streams out of the injector. This is why diesel has such a low octane. Yes, I'm an ex diesel mechanic. ::) But yes, diesels have no spark ignition system, so to speak. 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Oldfeller on 09/05/12 at 21:38:04 And diesels don't "detonate" as there is no pre-mixed fuel/air just sitting there waiting for the spark to "set it all off at once". The diesel ignition curve is an off center skewed bell curve as the very first micro-droplets of fuel ignite as they leave the ejector nozzle, rapidly growing more numerous until the injector stroke hits it's max flow rate, then tapering off as the injector stroke tails off to nothing. This cone of fire is quite rich at the center and lean at the outer edges, and the fire cone swirls and moves around on itself intentionally as the piston starts to go down, allowing all the air that can be used to be used. Note: the compressed air charge is of fixed volume, size and compression, nice and red hot and very consistent stroke to stroke to stroke. The amount of fuel sprayed in per piston cycle however is a variable, and when operated at partial throttle or low speeds diesel engines can burn quite lean and hot on the initial part of the power stroke, but this quickly cools off as the charge expands as the piston goes down on the small partial fuel load of sprayed oil that had "too much" air in there and not enough fuel. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Cavi Mike on 09/06/12 at 04:57:51 You're missing my point and you're misquoting me. I couldn't care less about some "curve," the fact is diesel is not ignited by a spark, it's ignited the same way detonation occurs in a gasoline engine - by heat and pressure alone. Just because it doesn't burn "all at once" (which I never said) doesn't change the fact that it WOULD if it was physically possible to distribute all of the fuel evenly throughout the combustion chamber at the exact moment when heat and pressure are at their highest. You're also giving a diesel fuel-injection system way more credit than it deserves. Diesel injectors are just spring-loaded valves that open when pressure reaches a certain point. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbjDH7fr_J8[/media] And yet again - thread completely derailed by totally irrelevant information. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by SALB on 09/06/12 at 20:43:34 Don't look at me! :-[ I was just making the point that diesel is such a low octane so that compression ignition could occur. I also listed alcohol, because it's very high octane, and thus a prime choice for race cars running 13:1 or higher compression. ;) As for injectors, almost all manufacturers have gone to piezo type electric injectors in the last ten years or so, and now they're starting to show up in gasoline direct injection engines. Gotta love technology! 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/07/12 at 10:10:55 My new Kia has GDI. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by SALB on 09/07/12 at 21:00:11 5B5055550F0E390 wrote:
How's that diesel technology in your gas engine working for ya, Bill? :) |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/08/12 at 15:26:17 GDI is really good more differenced than going from carb to fuel injection.I get 43.5 mpg overall, most of my driving is from 55-65,I live in small town so don't really do city driving.I do use 100% gasoline.And Mobil 1 oil.5/20,I thought about the 0/20 but dealers and checking the internet say I shouldn't. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Serowbot on 09/08/12 at 15:38:20 I just googled "Kia GDI",.. and it shows they do have it... 43 mpg's is as good as my little Geo Metro... Bill ain't always wrong... :)... |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by CalisOsin on 09/11/12 at 12:19:11 Someone mentioned to me recently that bikes running 91 octane might not be getting their money's worth at the pumps if the person before them filled up with 87. The reasoning they said was that the line was filled from the nozzle back to the pump with 87, and all of that goes into your tank before the 91 starts to fill it. Anyone hear of something similar? |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by Dave on 09/11/12 at 15:02:58 Yep. The current issue of the American Motorcycle Association has an article that I have not read yet - but I read enough to know the article is about potential problems at the E15 pumps and leftover fuel in the hose. On a motorcycle that only needs a gallon or two of fuel.....the ratio of ethanol could end up being too high since most are only allowed a 10% ethanol maximum. If you need a higher octane in a motorcycle, learn to find pumps that have a seperate hose for the good stuff.....or follow the Corvettes and BMW's to the pumps so they can fill the hose with high octane for you. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by bill67 on 09/11/12 at 15:26:09 About 4 years ago My brother was on a trip out west somewhere,The only gas was E15, He used a full tank of it,He noticed lost of power and worst mpg but didn't hurt the motorcycle.6 cylinder Goldwing. |
|
Title: Re: Fuel Grade and Type (Octane Ethanol/Non-Ethano Post by CalisOsin on 09/11/12 at 15:40:12 Just throwing that out there. It may be that with our bikes having such a small tank, and the likelihood that the person before you used 87, filling with 91 probably isn't going to give you any noticeable difference based purely on the fact that you aren't really getting straight 91. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |