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Message started by Pine on 08/27/12 at 08:06:13

Title: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Pine on 08/27/12 at 08:06:13

So I installed the Raptor petcock. At the time, I was not aware of ANY issues related to the fuel delivery on MY bike. The bike ran well, and all was good.

Installation of the new petcock was straight forward and without issue. I did remove the seat and loosen the strap that holds the tank on to better aid in removing the old petcock. I also DID purchase a vaccume block off, that seemed to fit perfectly ( $2.46 for a pack of 6).

On my two 10 mile rides. I have noticed a difference in the bike. Now understand I am not very knowledgable in super technical workings of carbs. I do not think that my bike ( the carb) was starved for gas, or that the delivery of gas has now changed significantly from that of th stock petcock, however, there does seem to be a change in how the bike runs. If it is NOT due to simply fuel delivery, then it must be due to the vaccume change.

I cannot say that change is GOOD or BAD... its just different. The bike seems to be quicker to rev up and slower to come back down off the revs. Rather like a hyper active kid, that wont settle down. Perhaps a bit more pep, but with it a less control of the rpms.

My theory is that I have plugged a small vaccumm leak (which was desgned in) and now that carb is much more efficient at drawing gas through the various circuits. The unplanned for increase in vaccume may mean that my carb will need adjusting, mostl likely to lean it back out a tad.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by ToesNose on 08/27/12 at 08:14:35

I found the same Pine, and the bonus of the Raptor clearing the frame effortlessly is a huge bonus IMO.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/12 at 08:25:25

With the stock vac petcock always fighting to deliver the requested gasoline flow, you always had a partially depleted float bowl level in the past when you were running hard.

Now your float level is always sitting right at the cut off line and you get "the correct metered gas amount" at all throttle settings no matter what you do. This is especially noticable when you whack the throttle open and ask the bike to GO !!!

Yes, your bike does run better with the Raptor, especially if your bike is performance modded.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by RanDaMan on 08/27/12 at 10:54:59

7251595B585151584F3D0 wrote:

There's a performance mod you can do to the Raptor? :-?

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/12 at 11:00:22

4F7C73597C507C731D0 wrote:

[quote author=7251595B585151584F3D0 link=1346079973/0#2 date=1346081125]
With the stock vac petcock always fighting to deliver the requested gasoline flow, you always had a partially depleted float bowl level in the past when you were running hard.

Now your float level is always sitting right at the cut off line and you get "the correct metered gas amount" at all throttle settings no matter what you do. This is especially noticable when you whack the throttle open and ask the bike to GO !!!

Yes, your bike does run better with the Raptor, especially if your bike is performance modded.

There's a performance mod you can do to the Raptor? :-?[/quote]

Yup, you can quit stalling & procrastinating over your faulty stock vac unit and go get you a Raptor for $16 shipped and INSTALL THE SILLY THING.

Suddenly your bike works much better -- that's a performance mod isn't it?

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by arteacher on 08/27/12 at 14:02:08

"My theory is that I have plugged a small vaccumm leak (which was desgned in) and now that carb is much more efficient at drawing gas through the various circuits. The unplanned for increase in vaccume may mean that my carb will need adjusting, mostl likely to lean it back out a tad."
I posted the exact same conclusion when I did mine and was told I was wrong- such a small change in vacuum would not make any difference.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/12 at 14:40:51

Before we were told that the suck went nowhere and no air moved, now they are admitting .....

"it's a leaky rubber ducky"

Weeeeee !!!! Ain't that fun?

:D :D :D :D :D

You guys need to help me ask the next dumb questions ---

"Where does the air come from then to fill the leaky rubber ducky?"
the rubber ducky is solid, air goes past it, not in it
"What path does the air take?"
from the intake, to the vac line, past the rubber ducky, to the diaphragm
"Is this a lot of air leaked over time, or just a few cc's worth?"
the chamber in which the diaphragm lives is small,
"So, the leakage to release the diaphragm and cut off the gas flow is intentional, right?"
yes, otherwise you'd have a lot more problems with gas in the crankcase
"What if there is just a little more leakage than intended, could this give us a few of the symptoms we see of gas cutting off when we don't want it to -- like when we are idling at a stop light for example ...."
yes, for the case of the sudden decel from superslab to stop, a quick shutoff of gas will make the problem worse
Have some fun with it, Verslagen and Lou are actually experts on these vac petcocks and they actually can answer questions like these if they are asked.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by arteacher on 08/27/12 at 15:04:59

OF- I have given this some thought and you are right- in a properly functioning vacuum petcock there is no vacuum leak.
However, the air in the vacuum line and the spring effect of the diaphragm and return spring act as a "vacuum spring" (you are slightly decompressing that air when the vacuum is on, and that decompression varies with engine speed. When you back off the throttle that spring will "snap back", possibly affecting the mixture in a small way temporarily. JMHO.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by verslagen1 on 08/27/12 at 15:43:08

Actually the opposite is true, the micro squids use a resevoir on their intake to boost performance, probably around 10 oz.

So the ounce in our vac line to our 650 lung is inconsequencial.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Oldfeller on 08/27/12 at 16:20:39

OK, we now have a possible rational explanation of when the high speed run ends, why the bike dies at the stop light, stop sign, or top of the exit ramp.

You have an intentional designed-in leak down effect, intended to relieve the suction valve that locks the gas open during run time to permit the gas valve to slowly close when the engine is off.

We got Lou saying his petcock he just took apart has a rubber component in this area that is converting itself into smeary bubble gum (possibly due to something in the gas ????)

We got reasons to think we have symptoms that may match what this bubble gum valve component might affect -- but that is all, really. You got sudden low system vacuum after a stretch of higher vacuum, the internal relief function over does it a bit and the gas valve shuts off.

(shudder -- if this is true, it certainly sucks)

What we do have that is concrete and real is 50% of the tech head sample taken having shown they have some sort of vac petcock error symptoms. Same 50% are saying installing the Raptor made the bad things stop.

We don't have to totally understand the why, we just have to understand that it does happen.

Other 50% of the sample is saying "What the heck are you guys talking about, my bike has NEVER done any of that !!" Unless you have had it happen to you, how can you get a reality grasp or "handle" on this stuff?

So, rest happy until the symptoms appear on your bike, then recognize them and act accordingly.

As Serowbot said, it is all complete nonsense until it occurs on YOUR bike !!!

Then it becomes serious business that you need to pay attention to.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by lacon on 08/28/12 at 04:54:10

How about posting a part # (or #'s) for the Yamaha Raptor petcock.
I'm not having any trouble with my stock one, but would like to order one when convenient so as to have one on hand when needed or accessing the spark plug - whichever comes first.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Routy on 08/28/12 at 05:40:05

Never denying that the vac petcock can give trouble after age sets in, or sooner.... if the 4 screws have never been tightened correctly in the first place, I have never read such a bunch of hog wash,.....that comes strictly from "PETCOCK PARANOIA" set up by a couple people, that prey on unsuspecting nubys that don't have the foggiest idea how the vacuum petcock even works.
"PETCOCK PARANOIA" has set in so bad here that imaginations are running completely wild,......as has been shown not only by the OP here, but many others as well.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by ToesNose on 08/28/12 at 06:07:44

LoL Routy, just having the ease of clearence from the Raptor was enough for me to spend $14 :D

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by MiCTLaN on 08/28/12 at 06:42:55

3D283F3F3334323A510 wrote:

How about posting a part # (or #'s) for the Yamaha Raptor petcock.

I think a vacuum petcock must have kicked Oldfeller's dog at some point.

Here are links I've bookmarked from a couple of different threads.
http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/687/SKU/808680
http://www.bikebandit.com/search?q=5LP-24500-01-00

I've had issues myself though, and I know that I had issues with one of my previous bikes that had a vacuum petcock. I've had the bike completely die on me a couple of times only to start back up a minute later, and last weekend I managed to run out of gas because I forgot I had flipped the petcock over to prime. So... raptor it is.

I don't mind having to turn off a manual petcock when I'm done riding, the hard part is remembering that it's still off when I get back on to ride it. I used to be in the habit, I'm sure I'll pick it up again when I raptorize my ride.

I'm curious if anyone has had any major issues (like a cylinder full of fuel) from using a Raptor... I've head it mentioned a couple of times, but just as a "what if".

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Oldfeller on 08/28/12 at 07:08:17

We have all been watching for the first "fuel in sump" episode that resulted from a Raptor converstion. And by all, I mean all of the folks who have converted over to the Raptor, so it isn't just me or Routy looking.

We have had two persons (who both admitted having bad float needle valves as a pre-existing condition before they put the Raptor on) who had gas in the airbox still after their Raptor conversion. Both immediately replaced said needle valve and fixed their issues. Gas in airbox only, none in the sump according to the two people involved.

We have ONE (1) person, Joe F who says he dropped his bike and had fuel leak out because of the Raptor, but he has not come back to provide any of the details. He has been PM'd, but has not replied as of yet at all. Routy needs to get up with the man and get him to talk to us, as we all really do want to know his story.

Eventually, we will get a gas in sump episode. Somebody will park a bike at an odd downhill angle or have it fall over and lay in the parking lot for a few hours or some other set of odd circumstances will make one happen.

It's been several years now, but it hasn't happened yet.

So the watch continues .....

=====================================================

Question for Routy,

If 50% of the people taking the last poll (21 of them) http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345820468/45#45 all listed bad vac petcock symptoms and flat said that the Raptor made all the bad stuff stop --- are all 21 persons delusional?

=====================================================

Cheap Chinese LONG DROP PETCOCK for $16 shipped

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Right-Hand-Suzuki-LTZ-400-LTZ400-Fuel-Gas-Petcock-Pet-thingy-Valve-Tank-ATV-/380446195730?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58945c4012&vxp=mtr

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Right-Hand-Suzuki-LTZ-400-LTZ400-Fuel-Gas-Petcock-Pet-thingy-Valve-Tank-ATV-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJHJDYE-8ydmlv6BP07dz)VzQ~~60_12.JPG

Looks like folks have started peddling the Chinese rip-off of the long shank Raptor petcock fairly cheaply --
of course somebody has to actually order one and try it out before we will all KNOW it fits up properly.

Watch out, they are saying it has a RIGHT HAND gas nipple location which would be correct, depending on if you really are standing beside the left side of the bike looking straight on to the side of the tank.

:D

Still, $16 with shipping is a lot better than Yamaha pricing of $24 with $7 shipping on top of that.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by mtlsir on 08/28/12 at 08:03:27

sorry form my newbeness, but when youre talking about raptor petcock, youre talking about the yamaha quad?

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Oldfeller on 08/28/12 at 08:36:12

Yup, the Yamaha quad ATV Raptor is the first drop in replacement we identified, way back then it cost $15 to buy from Bike Bandit, but has since skyrocketed up to $24 (everybody kept buying them I guess).

Since then, we have found LONG DROP ATV petcocks on several other bikes, and we found some on Ebay (parts coming in from China).

So far the short drop (stubby) ATV petcocks don't work because of the lip on our tank.

We need the LONG DROP petcocks to clear this tank lip and to provide enough room to get your gloved hand in there in the wintertime.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Foxman276 on 08/28/12 at 09:30:13

1C3F3735363F3F3621530 wrote:

Is this a long or short drop? http://www.ebay.ca/itm/330695040035?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648#ht_707wt_935

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Oldfeller on 08/28/12 at 10:41:30

It is shorter (but still claims to fit the 660 raptor) -- compare to this one for only $16

Cheap Chinese LONG DROP PETCOCK for $16 shipped

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Right-Hand-Suzuki-LTZ-400-LTZ400-Fuel-Gas-Petcock-Pet-thingy-Valve-Tank-ATV-/380446195730?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58945c4012&vxp=mtr

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Right-Hand-Suzuki-LTZ-400-LTZ400-Fuel-Gas-Petcock-Pet-thingy-Valve-Tank-ATV-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJHJDYE-8ydmlv6BP07dz)VzQ~~60_12.JPG

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Foxman276 on 08/28/12 at 10:53:45

Problem is the shipping costs to Canada are ridiculous. The other one is actually cheaper shipping included.

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Dave on 08/28/12 at 11:02:22

5C7562777B74282D2C1A0 wrote:

Problem is the shipping costs to Canada are ridiculous. The other one is actually cheaper shipping included.

Try Ron Ayers and see how the shipping to Canada works out...Aeyy!

They are the cheapest I have found for the factory Raptor Petcock.

http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/687/SKU/808680

Title: Re: Pines take on the Raptor Petcock
Post by Foxman276 on 08/28/12 at 11:15:40

5D666B7C6D617A7C676F627D0E0 wrote:

[quote author=5C7562777B74282D2C1A0 link=1346079973/15#19 date=1346176425]Problem is the shipping costs to Canada are ridiculous. The other one is actually cheaper shipping included.

Try Ron Ayers and see how the shipping to Canada works out...Aeyy!

They are the cheapest I have found for the factory Raptor Petcock.

http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/687/SKU/808680
[/quote]

$16 shipping to Canada according to their website FAQ. Still cheaper on ebay. I don't mind paying ~$30. That's just how it goes north of 49!