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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> too much air? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1345060093 Message started by RanDaMan on 08/15/12 at 12:48:13 |
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Title: too much air? Post by RanDaMan on 08/15/12 at 12:48:13 I read a really old post on page 300 something. A guy had asked if you can have too much air entering the carb or if it will only take what it needs? his question wasnt really answered so im here to ask it again. i have a lot of space now that i removed my air box and original battery so i want to get a HUGE air filter that sits in the middle of all that space but i dont know if this new air filter will hurt anything by letting WAY to much air in? can any one help me here? |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by CalisOsin on 08/15/12 at 12:56:54 A high flow air filter can throw off your air fuel mixture and might cause you to have to re-jet. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by RanDaMan on 08/15/12 at 13:05:06 I have a K&N high flo cone air filter at the moment and i did re-jet the carb to suit. but i want to get a massive highflow filter like made for a car for aesthetic purposes. A big Lung for my big single big lung ;D i just dont know if that will allow WAY too much air in to the carb and wreck anything internally by doing so. or if the carb will only take in as much air as it needs. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by Charon on 08/15/12 at 13:32:11 Ever run it without any air filter at all? Did it seem to run OK? You can't get any less restrictive than nothing at all in front of the carburetor. Run as big a filter as you can make fit, and it still won't flow more air than no filter at all. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by Routy on 08/15/12 at 13:39:58 The engine will take in as much air as it possibly can ! And it will take in the necessary fuel along w/ it,....despite what you have been led to believe. I never seen an engine yet that didn't perform noticeably better w/ no air cleaner whatsoever. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by rfw2003 on 08/15/12 at 13:48:46 Given a Filter with the same media types, about the only thing that using a physically larger filter will do, is prolong the time between needed cleanings. The larger filter is just giving you more capacity for filtration is all. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by verslagen1 on 08/15/12 at 15:15:07 Just throwing on the biggest air filter you can find won't give you the best results even if you rejet. You need to tune the intake to your needs. at a minimum, the intake length needs to be at least as long as the rubber ducky on the carb. Any shorter you'll have inefficiencies that'll affect performance. Most of the cone filter installs have these inefficiencies and can inprove their performance with a velocity cone between the carb and filter. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by rfw2003 on 08/15/12 at 15:27:27 150611100F0204060D52630 wrote:
I'm not used to using velocity stack type things, as it's been along time for me since messing with high performance carb'd engines. Would it matter if I was to use a 90 degree type one to put the air filter to the side kinda like most V-twins do? I plan on getting rid of the stock air box and battery box, and building my own compartment to fill in the space to mount some of the electronics and battery, so the 90 degree elbow off the carb with the filter on the end would look pretty good to me. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by Serowbot on 08/15/12 at 15:45:39 I have a K/N slip-in, and a Shorty muffler,.. with rejet... runs great, but ran like cr@p when I pulled the airbox side cover... So,.. you can have too much of a good thing... ;)... |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by CalisOsin on 08/15/12 at 15:51:01 647760617E7375777C23120 wrote:
Could you explain what you mean by this? |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by teabowl13 on 08/15/12 at 15:57:54 Remember too, that it will take more or less air depending on your exhaust. If you add a DYNA, or other more free-flowing exhaust, your carb will pull more air. But bigger isn't always better. I imagine that there's a proper sized filter for how your bike is set up, and that anything else that's larger would either be unnecessary, or just purely decorative. I did see a guy post pictures of his bike a while back, and he had mounted a huge car-style air filter onto his carb; it was angled out 90 degrees to the side, as you described. I remember him saying that he had a terrible time getting the jetting right on the carb with that filter. not sure what ever came of it, but I know he was working with Lancer to get it sorted out. Lancer has always been great about responding to my messages, and he knows his stuff for sure. If you really want the Correct air filter for your bike; ask him... |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by Greg on 08/15/12 at 16:02:06 I would just do it. The worst thing that can happen is it sux and you take it off. Experience is the best teacher. I have asked many questions here and still went against some advice. Some things worked out, others didn't. Definitely go all Nike on it! |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by Cavi Mike on 08/15/12 at 17:07:40 It's got nothing to do with matching the intake-boot length, it just has to do with the super-short distance between the mouth of the air-filter and the mouth of the carb. The turbulence doesn't have time to smooth out before it enters the carb. A velocity stack or "trumpet" will cure this. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by RanDaMan on 08/16/12 at 04:40:23 Thank you EVERYONE for you responses, this air filter will be mostly for decrotive purposes. but yeah I didnt even think that if you can run with no filter you should be able to run any over sized filter. my plan is to get some pipe at a 45 degree and come back a little more with it. Ill post pics on what ive done to the bike soon enough i just got her all back together. but yesterday when i was riding around I FRIED out my brand new 150$ lithium battery! >:( EEFFFFIIINNNNN AAAAAA |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by Routy on 08/16/12 at 07:09:20 7153445B7F5B5957320 wrote:
Exactly right. Turbulent air doesn flow freely at all,....can be the same as choking it. No such thing as too much air, or too big an aircleaner !! Ram air induction is even better yet. Anytime you have to rejet, its because you had turbulent air, either before or after the air intake mod. In some cases you may have even created a vacuum on the intake area, completely defeating the purpose. This is why the OEM air intake components are hard to beat. You think there ain't no engineering into the intake system for free flowing....non turbulent air,....think again. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by teabowl13 on 08/16/12 at 09:11:16 I know you can find more info about it on the VOODOO VINTAGE site somewhere, but here's a picture of a Savage they did from their Facebook page. They used a "T" fitting on the carb with dual VW air filter intakes. I'm pretty sure I read something on their blog about it a while ago, but it's an older bike of theirs, so you may have to dig back through their archives. All the same, I thought it looked really cool, and it was cheap and simple to do. PVC plumbing connections for the "T", and the VW filters are easy to come by.... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150344883415001&set=a.428621310000.306099.428566455000&type=3&theater |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by spacepirates on 08/16/12 at 10:10:46 Don't forget to think about rain (if you ride in rain). If your filter is out where it could get wet (and trust me, a cone filter will get wet under the seat) it will suck in water. Little bits of water aren't horrible, they'll throw off your jetting for that ride but they'll get burned off in the engine making it inefficient but nothing too bad. Unless you're like me and ride through a massive rainstorm into a puddle you thought was shallow but was really >6" deep. The combination of submerged tailpipe and massive influx of water into the carb killed my bike. Took a whole lot of starter fluid and new oil to get her going again. As for smoothing out the air flow into the carb you can do a few things. One is a sufficiently long tube. Others are all ways of stabilizing or manipulating the air flow to be more fluid (for lack of a better word). There is something called a turbulator that fits between your engine and your carb (wrong side, i know, but this is just for show and tell) that adds a spin to the air to make it flow better. There are also "carb wings" which force the air to flow straight, and I *think* there was a post on here a while back about using straws (drinking straws!) in a honeycomb-like structure to accomplish the same thing. Unfortunately I don't know if any (or all) of those intake addons have sound theory behind them, but if you've got an interest you can look them up. Might be snake oil, might be good improvements. who knows. PVC is a great and cheap way of making intake "plumbing." cheap, air tight, comes in a number of fittings, has rubber counterparts that seal well, etc. Keep in mind the goal of an air intake system is to provide a constant, consistent, smooth flow of air to your carb/engine. This means you don't want to have it affected by how you are moving. RAM air is great if you run at the same speed all the time, but we don't, and you don't want to be taking air from too close to your engine because as you sit that air will be hotter throwing off your jetting. Lots of stuff to consider. Let us know what you end up doing or finding out. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by spacepirates on 08/16/12 at 10:31:18 Links to some older threads about air-stabilization: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1267137782/5#5 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1265165841/0#0 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1243199945/45 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1237731838/0 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1236788683/66#66 A lot to read, but there is some good info in there. To sum it up, a few people did the straws/honeycomb arrangement with good results. Some design keys for the honeycomb extracted from those threads (read them carefully yourself, I only glanced over them): - straw length should be six times its diameter - straws should have as thin walls as possible to not restrict air flow - for the stock carb, use about the stock length and diameter of the existing intake tube - try to keep the filter element away from the frame (helps with high-speed) - be careful not to allow a loose straw to find its way into your engine.... |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by CalisOsin on 08/16/12 at 14:39:50 I would be careful using PVC. To turn my carb out 90 degrees I used a PVC 90 and it actually melted coming out of the manifold. If you do use PVC, I'd recommend schedule 80 CPVC. Eventually, I just had my brother fab something out of steel. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by Routy on 08/16/12 at 16:04:25 50636C46634F636C020 wrote:
How do you do theese thing ?? :o |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by RanDaMan on 08/20/12 at 05:48:05 5B544E55494F5C5E56584F3D0 wrote:
How do you do theese thing ?? :o [/quote] I mounted the battery on the shelf underneath i think its for california models. but anyways the battery slid out enough and some how the positive terminal shorted out against my swing arm! i though i had fried my electrical system on the bike but thank god thats not the case! anyways i got ahold of the ballistic customer service and they were AWESOME ive got a new battery on its i way for FREE.99 ;) Ill be more carefull on the installation this time around and secure it with more then a couple zipties! ;D |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/20/12 at 06:50:41 You can also do some general intake design theory hunting online, I modified my airbox to be a larger volume between filter element & carb. |
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Title: Re: too much air? Post by RanDaMan on 08/20/12 at 08:16:28 554A4C4B5651605060584A460D3F0 wrote:
I'll check google right now about desgins and such! |
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