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Message started by Dave on 08/12/12 at 07:21:43

Title: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Dave on 08/12/12 at 07:21:43

At this stage of my engine repair, I am installing the head plug. The Clymer Manual says not to use a sealant - but the repair thread on this forum recommends sealant. I cleaned up the head and plug to remove any traces of oil, then applied a small amount of SuzukiBond, then installed the plug.......and it popped back out of the hole! I tried both the new factory plug and the original one....and they both did the same thing. This tells me that the plug really doesn't want to stay in the hole....the way it is made results in it wanting to come out of the hole.

I made a small clamp to hold it in while the sealant sets.....but this tendency of the plug to come out of the hole has me wondering if it needs a bit more to secure it.

The head cover has a flat aluminum surface just above the plug, and it would be possible to install a rubber stopper or a spring to put a slight amount of pressure on the plug to prevent it from working out over time. I would trim the rubber plug or get a spring of the correct length to apply just a small amount of pressure - not enough to try and push the plug through the hole.....just enough pressure to keep the plug seated.

Anybody got thoughts on this one?

http://i46.tinypic.com/2aa0cgp.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/nq625e.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/2zhnt4j.jpg

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by CalisOsin on 08/12/12 at 07:54:57

Before I went as drastic as that, I'd replace the new plug, maybe you received a defective one.

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/12/12 at 08:06:04

I tried both the new factory plug and the original one....and they both did the same thing.

If both the old & replacement plugs look the same & act the same, ehhhh,, probably not a defective part,

Others have done this job, has anyone seen it do this?

Feel the hole it goes into, are the walls a cylinder or a slight funnel shape?

How many miles on it before it leaked?

The head cover has a flat aluminum surface just above the plug, and it would be possible to install a rubber stopper or a spring to put a slight amount of pressure on the plug to prevent it from working out over time.

I think thats a lovely solution. Use sealer & put some pressure on it so it doesnt move,

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Oldfeller on 08/12/12 at 08:15:22

Old old issue, covered in my tech on head plug (in frame), see Tech Index to find it.

Dave is just finding out all sorts of little goodies as he goes through his rebuild. When he was doing his cases split, he coulda done a tech on it as we don't have a case split tech yet.

;)

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Dave on 08/12/12 at 18:46:18

Yep......I am learning about this bike. The lessons and learning came a little faster than I had wanted!

I read through the head plug tech article, and the one thing that I didn't get out of it, was that this plug is seemingly unstable. I first juts pushed the plug into the hole for a test fit....and the friction made it stay. When I applied the SuzukiBond sealer.....which is a slippery silicone sealer when it is fresh - it lubricated the plug and the darn thing would pop right back out without the dry friction to hold it. It seems to me that the plug should want to stay in the hole......not come back out! It may be those leaky plugs that people have blamed on the technicians not getting in correctly may have popped out on their own.

I did decide to put a rubber stopper that I trimmed to length into the plug. I trimmed it so that it sits about 1/16" taller than the seam between the head and head cover, and I used the SuzukiBond to secure it into the plug. I then cut a small round piece of electrical tape and made a dot the size of the top of the rubber plug so I could prove to myself where it would push on the head cover. When I temporarily put the head cover back on, the black dot stuck to the head cover to indicate where the stopper would rest. It pushes on the head cover near the hole where the bolt for the rocker shaft bolt is located. The rocker shaft bolt does not come down out of the head cover - so the rubber will be fine in this location.

This is the rubber stopper trimmed to fit the height of the plug. It is hard for me to photograph black on black....but the plug is about 1/16" taller than the joint where the head meets the head cover.
http://i47.tinypic.com/1z215j7.jpg

This is where the rubber stopper will come to rest. There is just a slight pressure to keep the plug from coming up out of the hole.
http://i47.tinypic.com/35javxh.jpg

Is this necessary? Well a lot of these plugs have failed for some reason - and I sure do believe that the plug is not designed in a way that locks it into the hole. I feel better having done this.....but it may not be something everyone buys into.

OF.....I pretty much have relied on the Clymer Manual for this tear down and rebuild. I really didn't feel qualified to do a photo essay of it......maybe on the next one! ;D

This is where I am tonight. The cam has to be installed, then the head cover and rocker arms, then the tensioner, then both covers. After that it goes back into the bike and the starter, carb, exhaust....etc. I have meetings Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday night....so it will probably have to wait until next weekend for another work session.
http://i47.tinypic.com/eqse43.jpg

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Serowbot on 08/12/12 at 19:10:17

I'd check in the hole...
I think there's a squirrel in there... :-?...

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/12/12 at 20:45:14

http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-385079-panoV9free-vsbt.jpg

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by verslagen1 on 08/12/12 at 21:15:39

where's me mallet?

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by LANCER on 08/13/12 at 05:18:41

I use the red RTV stuff on the plug, both old and new type; tapped it down with a deep socket; it did not move after that

no runs, no leaks, no errors :)

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Dave on 08/13/12 at 09:36:50

Ooooh! Ooooh! Ooooh!

What I need to perfect is a way that you can remove the front valve access cover, then reach around in there and push the head plug back down.....then install something to keep it down......all without having to take anything else apart! :-?

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Oldfeller on 08/13/12 at 09:46:12

Now that would be a piece of progress .....

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by renegade1 on 08/13/12 at 10:07:12

how long do you have to let the new plug sit with the high temp silicone before it is all ready to be thrown back together?

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Dave on 08/13/12 at 10:14:29

5E4942494B4D48491D2C0 wrote:

how long do you have to let the new plug sit with the high temp silicone before it is all ready to be thrown back together?

Well that is a good question.......long enough for the sealant to cure! Once you get the engine taken apart, the plug out, everything cleaned up, the plug siliconed and pushed in, the head cover sealed and attached, and the rest of the engine back together......I imagine you are going to want to go to bed and get some sleep and it will cure overnight.

OF and Serenity did this job on the Dragon Trip in about 3 hours total if I remember correctly.......and they let it sit for a couple of hours before the test ride. It worked fine.

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by youzguyz on 08/17/12 at 03:31:46

556E6374656972746F676A75060 wrote:

I just had a thought (scary.. eh?). The plug is suppose to plug a hole. A hole has two sides. Who says it can't be plugged from the BOTTOM?
Yes, you would want to get the leaky plug out of the top so it wouldn't go completely loose and get caught up in something in the top end.
But after that is done, couldn't something be devised to plug the hole from the bottom side?
I would think you could. I would think this is a job for .. OLD FELLER :D
Could be just a plug you jam in there with some sealant. Could be a plug that expands in the hole using some sort of mechanical contrivance. Could be a plug that has something on the top side to latch on with and hold it snug, like a toggle bolt (but smaller).
After all, what is that hole for anyway?? It is just so you can get to a cylinder nut!!

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/12 at 04:23:55

...... stick a boat transom bung in it from the bottom and twist the tit until the bung gets plugged.

;)

Problem, what happens to the old plug that is still loose up inside your head?

::)

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by youzguyz on 08/17/12 at 04:46:08

Like I said, you would need to pull the old plug first, which means opening up the head.
Unless it COULD be fished out through the valve adjust cover.
Dunno if even possible.. might be. Ain't looked.

Another thought.. (two in one day.. call the newspaper!). a plug in the bottom could be held in place with a rod of some kind that would rest on top of the cylinder nut. A screw adjust to tighten it.

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by youzguyz on 08/21/12 at 11:13:26

I've been looking at pictures of the head, plug, etc.
It looks to me like that plug maybe can't come out of it's hole far enough to get loose.
I refer to the following (stolen) pictures:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/plug.JPG

See how close the top of the plug is to the edge of the case (where the breather screen goes).

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Condition_of_tappets.JPG

Notice that the corner of the cover by the breather screen goes over the top of the plug.

I don't think the plug can come out far enough to get out of the hole. The head cover is in the way.

If somebody has theirs "in progress", it would be interesting to know for sure. Put the plug in loose, put the head cover on, see if you can pop the plug completely out by poking it from the bottom.

If it can't come out, then a fix from the bottom without opening the head at all should be OK! :D

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Dave on 08/21/12 at 12:09:35

Where did you get a head plug that looks like that....with a solid center? I just bought a new one from Suzuki.....and it was just like the one that came out of my 2007.....and it was hollow in the middle.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2mwcaau.jpg

Maybe the style like you have can't come out far enough to leak.....but I believe the old ones leak when they do come out partially and get crooked in the hole. I remember reading that people think they were never installed properly, as they are crooked in the hole when they are opened up for repair.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2r53pug.jpg

I did modify the one I installed and put a rubber stopper in that was trimmed so that it just barely bumped into the head coverf and put a small amount of compression on it.

Maybe there is a reference on here somewhere to the old part number and new part number.......the parts list I ordered from did not indicate I had a choice.

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by youzguyz on 08/21/12 at 12:14:42

0D363B2C3D312A2C373F322D5E0 wrote:

Where did you get a head plug that looks like that....with a solid center? I just bought a new one from Suzuki.....and it was just like the one that came out of my 2007.....and it was hollow in the middle.

Maybe the style like you have can't come out far enough to leak.....but I believe the old ones leak when they do come out partially and get crooked in the hole. I remember reading that people think they were never installed properly, as they are crooked in the hole when they are opend up for repair.

I did modify the one I installed and put a rubber stopper in that was trimmed so that it just barely bumped into the head coverf and put a small amount of compression on it.

Those aren't my pictures. Stolen from this thread:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1256079122

The point of my posting is the "drinking and thinking" exercise of "would it be possible to fix the plug cap leak without pulling off the head cover?" It's not a question of the one that is in there leaking or not. The question is, can the leak be stopped safely by plugging from the bottom of the hole?
I think it is possible.

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by verslagen1 on 08/21/12 at 12:31:02

293F252A3725292A500 wrote:

The point of my posting is the "drinking and thinking" exercise of "would it be possible to fix the plug cap leak without pulling off the head cover?" It's not a question of the one that is in there leaking or not. The question is, can the leak be stopped safely by plugging from the bottom of the hole?
I think it is possible.

It would be a problem of access. Can you shove a freeze plug in there, turn it and push it into place with a dollop of rtv on it? Might be more of an issue can you get it clean enough for the rtv to hold.

I use a bent 1/4" rod to pop out the old plugs. That would easily press the new plug into place from the bottom.

Personally, for a quick tempory repair, it would be easier to shove a shim in from the top between the cover and plug. To push that plug down tighter to the head. I would just be concerned about it moving around and getting caught up in the valves.

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by 87 savage on 08/21/12 at 16:54:39

13282532232F343229212C33400 wrote:

Nice photos Dave! I just redid my engine a couple of weeks ago and when I put the head plug back in I had to remove the goop and teflon tape the PO had used in the past. I thoroughly cleaned the plug and head with brake fluid and dried them with compressed air. Just a tad of ultra grey and it popped in but did not try to pop out. About 300 miles later and so far so good :) Kinda looked like you had a lot of sealant IMHO.

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Digger on 08/21/12 at 21:58:20

19222F3829253E38232B26394A0 wrote:

Hi Dave,

From two of my old posts:

Here is the P/N of the new style plug:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/HeadCap-1E.jpg

Here is a top view of the new plug:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/HeadCap-2E.jpg

Here is a bottom view of the new plug:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/HeadCap-3E.jpg

Just for comparison's sake, here is what the old-style plug looks like (the plug in the photos is used, and has some residual copper-colored gasket sealant on it):

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/HeadCapOldE-1.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/HeadCapOldE-2.jpg

IHTH!

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Dave on 08/22/12 at 05:20:01

Digger: Thanks for the updated on the plug. I am not sure why the parts book did not update to the new part and gave me an old style. It is in and working now.......so hopefully it will hold until the next time it comes to torque the head.

87Savage: Those photos with the extra sealant are ones I copied off this site. I had a light layer of Suzukibond and I used a trimmed rubber stopper in the old style plug to secure it and prevent it from backing out.

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by 87 savage on 08/22/12 at 17:54:14

615A5740515D46405B535E41320 wrote:

87Savage: Those photos with the extra sealant are ones I copied off this site. I had a light layer of Suzukibond and I used a trimmed rubber stopper in the old style plug to secure it and prevent it from backing out.

Ahhhhh......I get it. I reread your post. When will you be up and running? Curious to see how it holds up. I can't imagine that will move now. :D

Title: Re: That Darn Head Plug!
Post by Dave on 08/23/12 at 05:24:15

767B7572656326202E2F170 wrote:

[quote author=615A5740515D46405B535E41320 link=1344781304/15#22 date=1345638001]
87Savage: Those photos with the extra sealant are ones I copied off this site. I had a light layer of Suzukibond and I used a trimmed rubber stopper in the old style plug to secure it and prevent it from backing out.

Ahhhhh......I get it. I reread your post. When will you be up and running? Curious to see how it holds up. I can't imagine that will move now. :D[/quote]

I got it running last Saturday. I have put about 100 miles on it so far. I have been really busy and can only sneak in a short ride around our country blocks after getting some chores done around the house. I need to work on the jetting a bit before I go on a long ride, I need to get the bike a little richer just off idle.