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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344660507 Message started by John in Kalifornia on 08/10/12 at 21:48:27 |
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Title: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/10/12 at 21:48:27 Hi All, I've been reading all the threads about spoke length and misalignment when converting to an 18 inch wheel. There seems to be some confusion as to why the spokes do not line up with the holes in the rims, especially those with dimples. The answer is obvious but it took me a while to figure it out. The front and rear spoke patterns are the same. The difference in the angle of the spokes is due to the disc braked front having a smaller hub than the rear, which uses a drum brake. For a given cross pattern the length of the spokes and the angle which they make with the rim are fixed by the respective inner and outer mounting locations. If you try to put a front wheel on the rear the spokes will have too much of an angle for the predrilled holes, as seen on the early Ryca bike examples http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C10%5Cbikepics-2440293-full.jpg Now, if you want to put a rear wheel on the front you have the opposite problem, the spoke angle is too much perpendicular to the rim compared to the holes. / http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C10%5Cbikepics-2440287-full.jpg What to do? Best and most expensive is to have the wheel shop drill the holes to match the specifications you give them. They should be able to figure it out. Another way is to make sure the rim you buy is made for the same sized inner circle as the one on your bike. I did an "Internet Eyeball" calibration and figured out that the Suzuki Savage and XS650 Yamaha have the same approximate rear drum size and spoke hole mounting circle diameter. Therefore the rim I ordered from Mike's XS had the correct angles for the spokes. However, the same model number rim had the spoke holes drilled at too an acute angle (away from 90 degrees) for the front. What to do? (1) Pay to ship the non compliant wheel back to Mike's XS. Go to the wheel store and give them the information they need to make a wheel for your particular combination of wheel size and hub spoke hole circle. Expensive. (2) Lace it up as is with the spoke nipples not seating correctly. This was what people were complaining about on the Ryca builds. Some of the spokes were actually bent. That doesn't seem like good practice. (3) Weld up the holes in the rim and drill different ones. This sounds rather extreme and possibly unsafe. Labor costs for a good job would be more than option (1). (4) Modify the wheel rim so that the spoke nipples will seat better. I think I have a solution that would work and save having to buy another wheel. What do you guys think should be done? John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by ToesNose on 08/11/12 at 05:12:15 1C37390C5E0 wrote:
We the LS650 community contact a wheeel manufacturer about making an outer rim that fits with the original hub and show them that they would actually sell enough to make a profit by rounding everyone up who whould want it and pre-ordering with a certain percentage of the cost ;) LOL |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by Dave on 08/11/12 at 06:11:50 If you are on a budget and pinchin' pennies and want to adapt a wheel where the holes are not properly aligned.....the only thing you can do is take a drill and drill the existing holes at the correct angle. This will make the holes slightly oval.....and perhaps the nipple will not seat completely since the hole is not drilled at the correct location in the dimple to match the spoke angle completely. I looked at this affordable way out for a month or two, and even bougth a NOS Yamaha rear rim....then found out I would have to drill it and I decided I did not want to do that, as Iwould have trouble finding a front and rear rim that matched as explained below. There are reasonable priced dirt bike rear rims are the correct 2.15 x 18 that we need for our front rim, and you can probably find some that have the holes for a hub with a disc brake and a similar sized hub. The problem then becomes finding the correct 2.50x18 rear rim that matches the one you got for the front, as dirt bikes use a narrow 21" front wheel. Also a lot of dual sport bikes use a 17" rear and/or 19" front wheel. The number of spokes on dirt bikes can also be different from our 36 spokes. If you are willing to spend a bit more than $ 210 a rim.....you can buy new rims that have the holes "punched" at the proper angle and in the proper location in the dimple. I bit the bullet and bought mine from Buchanan's. The holes are punched at the correct angle and they fit like they are supposed to. http://i49.tinypic.com/2sbu97p.jpg http://i47.tinypic.com/8wh5ib.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/2444ra1.jpg |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/11/12 at 07:50:29 I really don't have the patience to look for the correct dirt bike rim to match the rim I have. As a long time fan of both "Hot Rod Mechanix" and "Skinned Knuckles" magazines I feel I should at least try to find a solution that does not involve spending lots of money. Here are some pics of what I'm going to try to do. The rear wheel/spoke setup is like this: http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C10%5Cbikepics-2440288-800.jpg The misaligned front looks like this: Note the misaligned spoke nipple that is only contacting the rim in one spot. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C10%5Cbikepics-2440289-800.jpg I propose taking a Dremel tool and releving the area where the nipple is hitting so that it conforms to the nipple better. Also the hole can be ovaled out. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C10%5Cbikepics-2440290-800.jpg There are various sized spoke nipple diameters available. If one goes to a bigger size then the the ovaled hole could be rounded out to fit. There are some items called "spoke washers" or "spoke eyelets" that are used by the bicycle guys. McMaster Carr has similar items but they are called "Bellville Washers." They are really a spring of sorts. They could be put between the nipple and the rim to spread out the load from the spoke tension. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C11%5Cbikepics-2440455-full.jpg If it doesn't look perfect at least it's safer with the nipple contacting the rim more fully. Those other wheels shown on the forum with the grossly misaligned spokes will not stay in tune for long. I suggest for those of you with those bikes to make spoke tension checks on a frequent basis. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by verslagen1 on 08/11/12 at 08:50:52 belville washers are springs. unless you complete fit the washer to the rim, it will act as a spring. Don't know if that will be good or bad, but your wheel will flex a lot more than intended. if the intent is to distribute load, I think a stainless or alloy washer will be a better option as those will deform to match the hole you've made. I think, I would slot the hole until the proper spoke angle could be achieved. Then find a center drill to redrill the back side. Being this is experimental, I'd go get a crap wheel that only cost scrap value and try it out first. |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/11/12 at 10:00:37 As usual, you are right. The deformable washers are a better idea. If one used something soft like brass that would deform and fill in any discontinuities. Or would that set up a dissimilar metals electrolysis problem? By center drill do you mean a special type of bit? I was thinking of a countersink to get started then using a stone to make the concave pocket for the nipple. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C11%5Cbikepics-2440492-800.jpg Wish I had a junk rim to try this on. Maybe a super bent up one from a crashed dirt bike. Cleaned out my junk parts a while ago. Anybody have a junk wheel to donate? John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/11/12 at 11:09:00 HEY JOHN, Thanks for posting this up. As you already know, I've been fighting the exact same issue, and I like some of the suggestions you have posted here. I definitely think that using a softer, more deformable washer makes the most sense, so that the spoke nipple really seats into the hole. You don't want a spring in there. Brass sounds perfect to me; some sort of fairly thin brass washer. When you go to drill out and re-shape those holes though, you should really take your time and be careful. I imagine that using hand tools, it would be really easy to take just a little too much meat off of the shoulder, and you need to do all 36 of them exactly right; screw up just one, and your whole rim is toast. By all means, please let us know how this works out for you!! |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/11/12 at 12:24:13 Here’s how to do the drilling. Since this is a 36 hole wheel there are 9 sets of 4 repeating spoke patterns. Mock up a wheel and spoke combination using a wood fake hub. Since I don’t have the actual spokes for the front wheel I’ll use the rear spokes with soda straws over the ends to reach the wheel. They say to start with the spokes around the valve stem hole. The spokes on either side of the hole should tilt away from the valve stem so you can fill the tire. When you have established a pleasing spoke lacing sequence mark around the rim with colored tape or paint where each spoke goes. All 9 spokes of the same color should have the same angle. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C11%5Cbikepics-2440529-800.jpg Measure angles A and B. Subtract the smallest angle from the largest and you will have the tilt of the spoke from perpendicular. Make up a wedge out of wood for each of the spoke angles and paint it the corresponding color. Drill the pocket for the nipple with a countersink. Note that you will have to find a way to let the wheel rim dangle from the drill press table and stay at the correct angle. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C11%5Cbikepics-2440528-800.jpg That make sense? John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/11/12 at 13:22:54 To me that seems overly complicated, especially given that you are going to end up with an inexact hole no matter what you do. Remember that the angles are not just flat the way that they appear on paper in your drawings, but some angle to the left while others angle to the right of center. In my mind I was imagining doing this with a hand drill and/or dremel tool and hogging the holes out until the spokes will fit in at close to the right angle; knowing that the result will be a little sloppy. From there, I think that your compression washer inside the spoke nipple should make up the difference in the slop, as long as it's not overly sloppy. I do think that trying to mock up the wheel first and get a clear sense of what the correct angles should be is a good idea. An educated guess is much better than a wild guess. I also think that part of the problem is that the holes are drilled straight through the aluminum which is somewhat thick. I don't have no fancy computer drawing skills, but I would illustrate it like this: l l. If you were to round off the edges of the holes, the nipples would have more freedom to move around, but the center meat of the aluminum would still be roughly tight around the nipple. Sorry, that's terrible english, but I would illustrate that like this: ) (. I believe that would allow you some room to move the angle of the spokes around without reducing their hold in the rim. Does that make sense? |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by bobert on 08/11/12 at 13:39:46 Wouldn't a different spoke length give you an angle that matches the holes on the rim? If the spokes are creating too much of an angle to the rim, shorter spokes are in order-- as long as they still cross other spokes. That would seem to be the simple solution. |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/11/12 at 13:57:02 Makes more sense than my overy complicated way of doing things. I'm inside drawing pictures instead of working on the bike because IT'S TOO HOT outside. John in kooking Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/11/12 at 14:40:02 The problem is that the spokes have too small an angle (closer to 90 degrees) to the rim. The hole circle pattern for the front hub is much smaller than that for the rear. The rim was designed for the rear wheel. For a given "cross" pattern (number of spokes crossed on the way from rim to hub) there is only one spoke length that works. There are calculation programs that figure this out. I tried to do it on paper and just got confused. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by verslagen1 on 08/11/12 at 15:01:58 012A2411430 wrote:
"You knew the job was dangerous when you took it Fred" |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by verslagen1 on 08/11/12 at 15:06:15 I'd shape a block for the rim to sit on, align it to the hole and drive a couple of finishing nails thru the other holes for alignment. work that pattern around then see if it needs adjusting to do the other patterns. |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/11/12 at 15:51:34 Like this? John in Kalifornia http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C11%5Cbikepics-2440612-full.jpg |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/11/12 at 16:06:11 YEAH! That looks good... |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by verslagen1 on 08/11/12 at 16:11:33 yeah, either cut the heads off the nails or make them slip fit into the block. |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/11/12 at 18:18:40 Instead of nails, maybe wood dowels of a diameter to match rim holes, say 1/4 inch. I'm going to disassemble the stock 19 inch wheel and use those spokes for a trial. Right now I'm painting the spokes and rim so I can establish a lacing pattern. Before I take it apart, I'll measure the hub left/right offset. That way I can use the original hub and won't have to reinvent the.....wheel (You saw that coming, didn't you?) Funny, the tire is a 10/90 x 19 tubeless, seems weird for a spoked wheel. I'm concerned about the bend of the spoke heads. I want to be able to tell the people at Buchanan's, "Hey there are two different bends of such and such length and angle and the spokes differ by X amount in length," or "All spokes have the same bend and angle," or whatever I find. The only real difference going to an 18-inch wheel should be the length. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/12/12 at 18:23:16 58737D481A0 wrote:
HEY JOHN, I have a question, and possible suggestion about this diagram. i'd be concerned with the amount of wheel material being taken off on the short side of the spoke dimple (The right side in your diagram). It seems taking a little off might help, but maybe not enough for the shoulder of the nipple to really seat all the way around. What if, on the other side of the hole, you build the area up just a tad with some JB Weld? Then maybe you wouldn't have to take too much metal away from the wheel rim. The JB Weld wouldn't need to be structural really; it would just get sandwiched between the wheel rim and the nipple. Again, you'd only want to build up a very little bit. Don't want the nipples to be pulled too far up into the wheel rim. Another thing I thought of; I've used simple finish washers before in places where I needed something to squish into an oddly shaped space, and they work pretty well. They are pretty thin, and fairly soft, so the deform to fit whatever surface they are contacting pretty well. They might be the way to go as far as the washers. Again, the key would be making sure your nipples get down far enough into the hole to get a really good bite on the threads of the spokes. I'm going to try to pick up my wheel and spokes and such tomorrow. I'll let you know what I come up with if anything. Cheers! |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/13/12 at 04:11:32 OK, here's what I did today, or rather yesterday: Removed the front wheel, brake disc and tire. Had to use heat and an extension on Allen wrench to get disc mounting bolts off. Tire was the usual hassle. At least didn't lose patience and cut it off. Measured the offset of wheel left/right. This is important to get right so wheel is centered between the fork legs. Painted the spokes and associated places on the rim and hub different colors to get the lacing pattern right. I won't bore you with the details now. Removed the spokes. There are two different bend lengths, as I suspected. One spoke lays against the inner part of the hub. It goes through the outer hole circle. The spoke next to it on the hub has to cross over it on the way to the wheel so needs a longer bend leg. I'll take pictures to show details. Oddly, the spokes are all the same overall length. Assembled the new wheel rim with the old spokes for a fit check. Sequence of assembly is important. I knew they would be too long since I'm going from 19 to 18 inches in diameter. Now for the details: The rear wheel spokes come out from the rim at a severe angle of 65 degrees. Due to the smaller hub dimensions the front spokes are at a more perpendicular angle of 83 degrees. The fix: Oval out the spoke nipple holes toward the high point center of the dimple. Round out the hole. I’m going to go to a bigger diameter nipple. Use a stone to cut back the low side of the dimple but don't remove too much. It won't be possible to make the nipple seat correctly because there isn't enough meat left. Assemble the wheel using a spacer washer between the spoke hole and the nipple. This washer needs to crush so that it is thinner on one side; its purpose is to spread the load on the wheel. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/13/12 at 10:25:58 I heard from another forum member that he received spokes from Buchanan's that all had the same bend length. He said they will replace the incorrect spokes. I'm waiting till he gets his wheel together before I do any more with the front wheel. If it works out I'll tell them to give me the same thing. I know what I'm gonna do and when I finally get the correct spokes I will get back to it. At least I can work on the back wheel respoking with correct parts. Got a chain conversion to install, too, plus AGM battery, gas tank, etc. I'll open up a new thread or add to this one later. BTW, if you want to know how to spoke a Savage wheel I will take pics and write up a tutorial, that is, if I'm successful. My theory, enough time and enough parts anybody can fix anything. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/14/12 at 05:30:18 HEY JOHN, Thanks for posting all of this. I have a bit of a handicap, since I did not take my own front wheel apart. I've been puzzled by the spokes that Buchannan's sent because they are all the same. I will take a closer look, but I'll bet they all have the same bend as well, and that's why they aren't working. I'll contact them right away. If you know, can yo please let me know exactly what to ask them for? I always find them confusing to talk to unless I have exact measurements for everything... Could you please post up your measurements at some point? Especially the offset of the wheel? As I said, I didn't take the wheel apart in the first place, and the guy who did didn't take any measurements; he just cut off the spokes and threw them out... |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/14/12 at 06:27:42 Looking back, if I had to do it all over again, I'd be very tempted to use a set of stock spokes, cut them down to length, and either have someone re-thread the ends, or possibly even do it myself... Looking back, I'd do a whole LOT of things differently with this project. Mostly I'd do them myself! |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/14/12 at 07:04:57 I was thinking of using the stock spokes also but that isn't a good idea. First, the threads are rolled not cut on spokes, I believe. You might have a hard time getting the correct die anyhoo. I would have no idea what pitch or body size they were and where to go to get metric cutting tools. The old spokes are used, not new. By the time you are done you will be using Vise Grips on the nipples. Lacing and truing a wheel take lots and lots of back and forth tightening and loosening. I'll post pics and or drawings of the stock Suzuki spokes with dimensions. There are definitely two different bend lengths. Also I will publish the offset numbers for the hub. I try to do all my own work and not depend on other people for stuff I can do myself. Often I have no idea what to do but seem to muddle through. I have lots of patience with inanimate objects, little with people. That said, I can see if you don't have the room or tools you must depend on others. Or for specialized stuff like welding. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/14/12 at 10:25:39 163D3306540 wrote:
Thanks so much John. I got a message from Dave this morning, and he has offered to send me pics and advice as well. I really appreciate that... This is something I would never have taken on alone. I did so on the advice of a now former friend who works at a really reputable custom bike shop in Mass. He said I should just get the parts I wanted, and his buddy, who is a "Wheel Building Expert" would take care of the rest . Needless to say, that fell apart, and I've been trying to figure it out on my own here since June. Even my friend, Scott who builds custom bikes here in Portland has tried to help, but this is a little beyond his experience as well. I did find another rim on Ebay that matches the one I have, but the holes are not drilled nearly as far to the edge of the dimples. I'm pretty sure that even this one will need some work and massaging to get things lined up, but not as much, and I feel safer about that. I can always re-sell the other rim, as long as I haven't screwed it up; once I start grinding on it, it becomes scrap metal... $150 of scrap metal. These High shouldered vintage rims are super cool, but they ain't cheap! Cheers! |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/14/12 at 11:02:00 Don't futz with the one you have, leave it nice looking. There is quite a difference in the angles of the spokes between the rear and front wheels. Obviously they are not interchangeable. The buzz words to look for are "drum brake hub" or "disc brake hub." The seller may or may not know what bike the rim came off of. I think it's pretty rare to find a dirt bike 18 inch rim for disc brake, at least for the front. Look at the pics from my first post on this thread. You should be able to tell which type of rim you have. It's pretty obvious if you know what to look for. I think I can make the rear wheel rim that I bought work on the front but it will require much machining, oversized nipples and careful assembly. Even then it may not look quite right. I enjoy the challenge and am willing to live with less than perfect results. That's my ego problem, gotta say I did it myself. Wouldn't suggest anybody else do it. Specs later. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/14/12 at 20:25:03 Here's the dimensions of the stock front wheel spokes. There is about a 40 degree angle on the bend. The difference in bend lengths is 4mm, which is the thickness of the spokes.This makes sense, as one spoke crosses over the other at the hub. The diameter of the head is about 7.31mm. The drawing is misleading; the diameter is a constant 4mm throughout the length.These are mot swaged spokes. John in Kalifornia PS, I didn't write down the offset of the wheel. I think that the side opposite the brake is about half an inch off the deck. Sorry http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C14%5Cbikepics-2442097-full.jpg |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/15/12 at 06:28:00 Thanks John, This will help a lot when talking to Buchannan's. I got my spokes back yesterday from my friend, Scott, and sure enough, all of the spokes that Buchannan's sent to me are the same length and bend, so they sent me the wrong thing! I will have to call them today to see if they can correct this issue. Apparently Dave Whitacre has already brought this to their attention, and they have corrected the problem for him, so I am hopeful that they will work with me. I assume that because all of the spokes are the same length (except for the bend of course) that the rim should be centered between the spoke holes in the hub. If the rim was off-set to one side or the other, the spokes for one side of the hub would be longer, right? |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/15/12 at 08:04:41 That's a fair assumption. The wheel should be centered between the two sets of holes on the rim. However there is an added thickness outside of the spoke holes on the left side because of the brake. I will take measurements and draw up a picture. I bet I can get pretty close to the correct dimensions. The real proof is when the wheel is mounted on the bike. The tire should be centered left/right between the fork legs. I'm waiting for you and Dave to get some actual product from Buchanan's to see if they have their act together. Then I'll order my spokes. The rim I'm using will require special oversize diameter nipples because of my "modifications." BTW, I saw a wheel on Ebay yesterday that looked funny. Sho'nuff somebody had tried to mount a drum brake wheel to a small diameter hub. The spokes were bent. In fact, somebody pointed it out to the seller and mentioned that very thing. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/15/12 at 12:09:29 I already ordered and received my spokes from Buchannan's a few months ago. They are all the same bend and length at the head. I will have to go home and measure them (and hope I find my calipers...) to see if they are all long or short, but I believe they are all the short ones. Once I have the correct measurements from what I have, I will call them right away to see about getting them replaced... |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/18/12 at 08:10:45 Just a quick update. I called Buchannan's and explained my issue with the spokes they had sent me. Even though I received them almost 3 months ago, they were happy to allow me to return half of them in exchange for 18 new ones with longer necks. I'm very grateful to them for that; they were great to work with. Not sure how long it wil take to get the new spokes in, but hopefully by the end of next week. New rim might arrive today, if not then early next week; then maybe I can build a wheel!! Thanks John for all of your help and info on this; I was able to very clearly describe the issue to them and give them exact measurements based on the info you posted. I couldn't have done it without ya!! Cheers! ;) |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/18/12 at 13:59:33 That's great they have such good customer service. If you could, when you get the spokes, make some measurements so we all can know what the specs are for a good set of spokes. I'm looking forward to your and Dave’s success in lacing the front wheels. Maybe the spoke people will make a standard kit of parts for this application. Right now, I have a garage full of parts. Front wheel off, waiting to be relaced, can't put tire on yet. Rear wheel off, had to cut the tire off. Have to disassemble it, paint the rim then respoke and put new tire on. Went to shorten the forks and found out the seals are bad. Had to put the original pull back bars on to provide anchor points for tie down straps. Extra gas tank all cut up needs some welding. Lots of fun, hope I can remember where everything goes. I'm going to weigh the parts I took off and see how much flab is on the stock bike. Chain guard, fenders, big belt pulley, heavy steel rims, etc. Must be at least 50 pounds that won’t be returning. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/24/12 at 21:07:06 SUCCESS! I took my rim and hub to Buchanan's yesterday. Gave them a couple of the stock Suzuki spokes so they would have samples. I was afraid they would tell me that the rim I brought had the holes in the wrong place and would try to sell me a new wheel. Instead they were able to redrill the nipple hole angles on the rim to match the hub. While I waited they also cut new stainless spokes. Today I laced up the rim. It was very easy to do, especially compared to the rear wheel where the spokes were marginally too small. If you need spokes for your Savage from Buchanan's they should have all the info for the bends, etc. in their database. I recommend them highly. John in Kalifornia http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C24%5Cbikepics-2446337-800.jpg http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C24%5Cbikepics-2446338-800.jpg |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by verslagen1 on 08/24/12 at 21:59:18 thought you were up north somewhere, buchanan's across the river from me. you coulda said hi. |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/24/12 at 23:28:28 You was at work, I assumed. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by verslagen1 on 08/24/12 at 23:42:36 most likely. |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/31/12 at 15:25:47 AWESOME! Glad that worked out for you. I bought a new wheel rim on Ebay; took a guess from the pictures that the spoke holes were at a much shallower angle. I still thought I'd have to modify/re-drill it, but when I first lined it up, everything slipped together perfectly!! Got the new spokes from Buchannan's too, so now I'm ready to go, but I'm stuck... Not sure what order to lace it up in; I started on the brake side, and loosely laced all of the spokes on, but when I turned it over, found I couldn't thread the other spokes through the other side. I'll go play with it some more after my daughter goes to bed tonight, but if you're out there and can give me a step by step on where you started lacing and how you got all of the spokes laced in, that would be awesome! Cheers! |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/31/12 at 17:13:19 Let's see if I can make this simple. For the sake of clarity here are some definitions. Others nay have different terminology. The right side of the rim is away from the brake. Left side is brake side. The spokes with the shorter bend go next to the hub. I'll call these the outer spokes. The inner spokes are the ones that cross over and lay on top of the outer spokes. They have a longer "leg" of bend so They can cross over the outer spokes on the way to to rim. Put the rim and hub flat on the bench. Start with one outer spoke. Notice that it goes through a hole farthest away from the center of the hub. So it is not only an outer in the "towards the side of the bike" but is also on an outer hole circle diameter on the hub itself. Install an outer spoke. It should be obvious where the spoke goes on the rim because of the angle of the nipple hole. Skip 3 holes and install the next one. On the hub you only skip one hole. There are 36 holes in the rim but only 18 holes on each side of the hub. After you get one side done then flip the wheel over and install the outer spokes on the other side of the hub. If you twist or rotate the hub to make the spokes tight you can see where the spokes go. The secret, if there is any is to install all the outer spokes first. Then twist the wheel hub in the direction so as to tighten the spokes. You can thread in an inner spoke and figure out where it will need to go. If you need to loosen some spokes and rotate them out of the way you can do so without getting too confused as you have all the other spokes installed for a reference. Everything repeats in a pattern of 4. Main idea is that at the inner tube filler hole the spokes on either side angle away from the valve so you can get an air hose on the Schrader valve. This should get you started. John in Kalifornia http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C31%5Cbikepics-2449972-800.jpg] |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/31/12 at 17:55:14 Thanks John, I think I just need to wiggle it around some more. I started out just as you described, and got all of the spokes on the brake side of the hub laced up really easy in about 10 minutes. When I flipped it over to start the other side, I found that the spokes lace in going downward, and the spokes on the other side block them from being rotated into position; essentially because they have to pass through those spokes before they reach the bend in the neck of the spoke, so I can't turn them into position. I have all of the nipples set very loose on the other side, to give me maximum wiggle room, but if there's a secret to getting the second set of spokes laced in, I'd sure love to know. Is this where the straw method comes into play? Maybe I need to be rotating more to wiggle them in... We'll see... still waiting for that dumb baby to lay down and go to bed!! ;D |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 08/31/12 at 20:38:28 I DID IT!! I was right; it's al in the wiggle... and that last set of inside spokes is really hard until I figured out the right sequence of slide the spoke through, loosen the one to the right of it, and fold it over, then pass the new spoke through, re-attach the one I loosened, then loosen the next one over, and pass the new one past that; re-attach it, then attach the new spoke into position.... times 9... Tomorrow I'll give it to Scott to true it up and get the tire mounted, and then on to other messes!! I couldn't have done this without you, sir. I am deeply grateful. Cheers! |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/31/12 at 23:35:02 De nada. Look under the technical section under "No Cost Wheel Truing Stand" if you want to true the wheel yourself. You don't really need a dial indicator. You can just use your finger or anything else to find out where the wheel is the most lopsided then mark it and loosen/tighten the appropriate spokes. You find out rather quickly if you go the wrong way. True the wheel left/right then check for radial run out. The only "secret" is to use a good close fitting spoke wrench, oh and make sure you lube the spokes. I used the stuff from Buchanan's on the front wheel. The rear spokes and nipples were lubed with "boiled linseed oil." I thought I had the spokes tight per the "ping" test then read the paper that came with the Buchanan spokes. They said that "big twin" spokes should have 80 inch pounds of torque. I used a fish scale hooked to the spoke wrench. I cut a groove in the spoke wrench that was about 3 inches from the open end and hooked the scale to it. Then I pulled on the scale till I saw 9 pounds (10 pounds max for this instrument.) Some of the spokes needed a turn or 2 to get to the calculated (3 inches times 9 pounds) 27 inch pounds torque value. I think that the nipples were "bedding in" to the aluminum rim. I can understand if you would rather have somebody else true the wheel. It is rather tedious but actually is not that much requiring of skill, just patience. You may have used up yours waiting for the kid to go to sleep. John in Kalifornia I thought |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 09/01/12 at 05:20:51 THANKS JOHN! All things considered, I know I could true the wheel myself; that's something I've done with Bicycles before, but Scott owes me more than a few favors, so I don't have to pay him. All I need to do is sit back and watch. He's going to be helping me with the revival of my Roadster build. This front wheel has been the albatross around my neck that has really held up the progress. I'm VERY excited to be moving forward again! By next week I should be on two wheels!! |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by Jiggyfly on 02/23/13 at 03:36:55 What width wheels are you guys using? |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 02/23/13 at 07:07:32 60434D4D534C46532A0 wrote:
Shucks; Took some digging, but I found it! The front I think is 2.15, and 2.5 in the rear. Pretty sure that's right. 2.15 X 18" - 36 holes. If you're looking at vintage rims, you have to be very careful about checking to see the angle that the holes are drilled at. Most of the old rims are from dirt bikes that had drum brakes; so the holes are drilled at a steeper angle. That works fine on the rear, but the front disc brake hub is much smaller, and the spokes will go into it at a straighter angle. Honestly, when I bought the second rim for the front, I just guessed at the angles by looking at the photos on Ebay; the guy listing it had good close-up shots, and it worked out. The rim that the guy originally used on the rear should have been laced to the front. I will be taking that off and mounting my other rim in a little bit, but I am waiting for $ to order the spokes. That will leave me with a left over rim that is the right size and fit for the front wheel. These are not cheap, but I could sell it for $200 and ship it to you as long as you are in the continental US. If you're interested in these exact rims that is... Just let me know! :) |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by Jiggyfly on 02/23/13 at 08:02:15 Thanks! I appreciate the effort in getting me solid info! I also appreciate the offer on the wheel! I'll def keep it in mind, once I 100% pick a direction. I've searched & searched & not found anyone do a Ryca build with anything other than the 18" setup. While it creates that nostalgic look, it also brings with it a nostalgic performance with the 18" tire selection being less than stellar. Have you seen a Ryca on 17"s? Part of me thinks that by even contemplating 17" wheels & stickier tires I'll overstep the performance envelope of the platform. But it wouldn't be the first time! :D |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by John in Kalifornia on 02/23/13 at 13:35:58 I checked my records. The wheels were 2.15 by 18 part number 34-1902 from Mike’s XS. Spokes were 19-0060 stainless. 36 hole designed for the rear wheel with a drum brake. The rear spoked up OK but because of the smaller hub diameter on the front wheel (disc brake instead of drum), the angle on the holes for the front was too acute. I went to Buchanan’s spoke shop and they predrilled the spoke holes to a more perpendicular (to the rim) angle and made up some spokes to fit. I think I was the first one to have 18-inch front spokes made for the Savage. If you want to order spokes from them you can use my name for reference and tell them to make the same as mine. I used Duro HF308 tires for the dirt tracker look, 3.50 front, 4.00 for rear. They are a copy of the old Pirelli Universals. Have no idea how they will work. Don’t expect to do much canyon racing. Read thru this whole thread and you will get the story, John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES Post by teabowl13 on 02/23/13 at 14:34:44 7F5C52524C53594C350 wrote:
I went with the matching 18" rims because I was specifically going for a vintage look and feel. Using a 17" rim shouldn't be any harder, as long as you find one that will work. Buchannan's can make custom spokes to fit any length for about the same cost as the ones on the RYCA site. In retrospect; I learned a LOT about wheel lacing; and it's really rather complex. There are a lot of factors to consider. I spent months chasing down the proper spokes, paid $200 for a rim on Ebay that I can't use afterall. I also now have to disassemble the rear wheel, and re-lace it with the proper rim and spokes because it got screwed up the first time. I'm glad I learned a lot about the whole process, and I sure did grin frm ear to ear like a howler monkey when the front wheel finally came together, but... In some ways, I wish I had spent the money and simply sent my hub and rim out to Buchannan's and had them do the work and just send the wheel back to me. John's lucky; he lives right there where they are. Good luck!! ;) |
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