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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344446001 Message started by Drifter on 08/08/12 at 10:13:21 |
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Title: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Drifter on 08/08/12 at 10:13:21 Not so good news, i called and talked to 2 people from Mobile and 2 from crane cams. The answer i got was as follows. 1. NONE of the oils available today at wallys auto zone ect will work with flat tappet cams..None it will ruin your engine if it has a flat tappet cam. This info came straight from 2 people at crane cams. The savage does not have a flat tappet cam but it has fingers that ride on the cam so it needs a higher % of zinc than new cars or bikes with roller cams. Beware things have changed!!!! Oil aint just oil anymore!! 2. The zinc in mobile 1 bike oil 20-50 is 1600ppm 10-40 1200ppm. last update was dec 2011???? This is bike oil, way lower in car oil!! Any car oil dont use it. The standards have changed what was true 1 year ago is no longer correct. Call them and ask for yourself! 3. Flat tappet cams need a min. of 1500 ppm to survive. most of the stuff out there today is 600-800 ppm. Add zinc or buy Brad Penn or other racing oil. 4. Crane cams could not recommend a min. ppm zinc content for our bikes.....but he said if using ANY over the counter car oil add extra zinc from lucas, red line or others! They recommend Mobile 1 20-50 for bikes. 5. The lack of zink is also causing rapid wear of valve guides as well as cams and followers. He did not think much of ethanol either which brakes down the oil at the top of the cylinder and the valve guides....another story! 6. Bottom line buy oil with high zinc or zinc additive or get screwed:( 7. Modern cars and trucks use roller cams that do not need near as much zinc. The savage is not a roller cam it needs more zinc! 8. Update, old oil with the letters sg-1500 ppm or sf-1800ppm both high zddp-zinc content, after lots of searching, it seems Rotella T and Delvec DIESEL oil have 1200 ppm zinc which is enough for the savage engine. This info came from Crane and Mobile 1 today im only the messenger. Maybe this info will change some minds and save some motors not just the ones in our bikes!!! ;) Here is a link to give some a better idea of what is going on. http://www.opelclub.com/ZDDP2.pdf |
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Title: Re: Mobile and Crane cams info, dont use car oil. Post by SaVaGeEaRL on 08/08/12 at 11:23:41 I was using mobil 1 vtwin 20w50 until they removed the jaso and ma from the bottles. so I switched to rotella t6. thanx for the info |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Drifter on 08/09/12 at 05:12:43 More need to read this entire thread, times have changed Crane makes camshafts for many cars truck and bikes, they said dont use car oil there is NOT enough additives in it. |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by ALfromN.H. on 08/09/12 at 05:58:55 Quote:
When they start changing the oil? Is this a recent thing? |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by ZAR on 08/09/12 at 06:51:46 010C020256600 wrote:
Al it has slowly evolved over the past decade or two. With synthetic and synthetic blend oils, chemical additives,changes in engine technology,etc. it's changing every day. Thank the diesel industry for helping us to have a supply of oil that meets the needs of our fine machines. Old school technology rocks! |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Drifter on 08/09/12 at 09:04:15 I asked Mobile and Crane cams when things changed, both said its a trickle down effect and you can never find the exact time or date, but what they said for sure is the car oils available across the counter today have far less zinc than even 1 year ago they are contineously lowering the zinc and other additives and it does NOT meet the specks for anything other than roller cam engines. If you can find some real old stock dino or syn that has the correct additives for flat tappet engines buy it.....make some profit selling on ebay or stash it away for future use, maybe someone on here knows the codes or letters for the good old stuff. That means pretty much any car or truck built before the mid 90s that does not have a roller cam this oil will quickly wear the cams and guides. Very few motorcycle engines have roller cams so this oil will quickly wear cams and guides in them as well. Once again this info came directly from crane cams and the official Mobile 1 site were i got the contact number and called them. Things have changed people!! The old days of using cheap car oil or even expensive car oil in our bikes is over...... :( The Crane guy said they have lots of warranty problems as do other cam makers due to wipped cams and valve guides....in cars trucks and bikes! He said there is a warning in the instructions NOT to use standard oil for anything other than a roller cam. Some fail to read or believe.... :'( |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Dave on 08/09/12 at 10:26:42 After all the changes they have been making to oil.......I'm probably going to stop putting car oil in my car! |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by LANCER on 08/09/12 at 11:53:43 300B0611000C17110A020F10630 wrote:
AMEN ! 8-) |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 12:03:29 49727F6879756E68737B76691A0 wrote:
I use T-6 in everything but my brand new under warranty Nissan -- and I feel bad every time I put SN grade synthetic car oil into it (when it gets past the 3 year warranty period T-6 goes into it as well). T-6 you could comfortably run for a year at a time, SN (according to Nissan) requires changing every 3,750 miles (and you wonder about it all the time as it is really some crappy weak oil). The cat converter is always the rub with T-6, but I have been using it in cat converter yearly checked Acuras for 6 years now with no issues and I know my old acuras use/smoke some oil since they are both past 200,000 miles now. If I was gonna fail a cat test due to T-6, I'd have done it by now (knock on wood, twice no less). |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Dave on 08/09/12 at 14:23:43 6E4D4547444D4D4453210 wrote:
The cat converter is always the rub with T-6, but I have been using it in cat converter yearly checked Acuras for 6 years now with no issues and I know my old acuras use/smoke some oil since they are both past 200,000 miles now. If I was gonna fail a cat test due to T-6, I'd have done it by now (knock on wood, twice no less). [/quote] Well I have wondered what the time frame was for the converter to be damaged by the ZDDP percentage. And would I be better off replacing a damaged converter......or a worn out engine? |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Oldfeller on 08/09/12 at 14:33:53 The answer is a variable. There are type 2 cats that have gone into place since my Acuras were new that are more sensitive to contamination (but are more effective) than the type 1 cats were. They also cost more ($400 is cheap for a type 2 cat). I too value the engine and drive train more than the cat converter, but I have also gone through the drill where the engine light comes on and you have to replace a $150 sensor so I also get a glimmer to the other side as well. I wish I could find a rock solid synthetic SN grade 5w30 oil that used one of the new calcium additive packages that had gotten the rep for being long lasting and just plain good on BITOG. Ain't any there, yet ..... |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Routy on 08/09/12 at 15:01:05 It all hinges on whether the lifters or rocker arm are roller or not ?? As if all other friction points are roller or needle or ball bearing ?? In reality, in our cars, the main brgs, the rod brgs, and the cam brg, are all bushing brgs, no roller needle or ball brgs anywhere. So why don't they need that slippery stuff in it ?? And where are all these camshafts w/ all the lobes wore off, and the wore out rockers, lifters..... whatever was riding on them ?? Many years ago when chevy had a soft cam problem, it was found that a shot of STP (the racers edge) w/ each oil change, stopped any wear on the soft cams. But now all of a sudden we need a hi $ additive to do the same thing on quality hard cam and followers ?? Any of you guys tear a top end down that had been using plain ole car oil ?? Any abnormal galling on the cam or rockers, not connected to low oil pressure ?? And now a problem w/ e-10 ruining the oil, and the oil ruining the cat conv ?? Why are engines now lasting 2-300,000 miles w/o the slippery stuff in it ?? |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Drifter on 08/09/12 at 15:03:37 Dave, if your car or truck has a roller cam the oil out there is ok for the cams, rollers dont put near as much stress on the cam as flat tappets or finger lifters. That said i dont know how to get past the guide wear and ethanol dilution of the oil...... :o The crane engineer i spoke to said chemists are working on both of those problems. Maybe oldfeller is on to something, in the meantime add zinc, cats are cheaper that engines....... :-/ Routy, things have changed in the last few months, call crane cams or mobile and ask about the zinc and other additive changes. |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Serowbot on 08/09/12 at 15:22:03 Once upon a time,... a long, long, time ago... Life was simple... You want 30wt,.. or 40wt?... You want a wall phone, or a desk phone?... You want Levi's, or Wrangler's?... ... a double bed, or a single bed?... bacon, or sausage?... Buhuhh!... :-/... |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by rfw2003 on 08/09/12 at 15:54:00 555A405B47415250585641330 wrote:
The reason automotive engines are lasting longer even with the lower High Pressure additive packages is because of new tech in the engine itself. The valve train is where the highest pressure point in the engine when it comes to wear surfaces. The addition of roller lifter or in the case of overhead cam engines roller followers has greatly lowered the wear in these areas, as has the increased lubricate filtering efficiency and capacity, not do to revealing the pressure but because instead of rubbing over the cam it rolls over the cam. The reason the older engines did not until recently start having issues with abnormal valve train wear is because of the high pressure additive packages. Automotive engine oils also help with the use of friction modifiers but in the majority of the motorcycle world we cannot use the oils with this because of our wet clutch. ZDDP works because it can stand the high pressures in those areas where the oil part breaks down. In the case of older engines there were also higher levels of the ZDDP in the oils so that is why they kept from wearing out. Now with the new oils and the lack of a high pressure additive that is what is causing the issues in the older type engines with current oils. Hope that makes sense and I'm sorry for the rambling R.F. |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by ralfyguy on 08/09/12 at 16:30:39 It is simply a conspiracy to get older vehicles off the streets. They want them to die and do not care whether you like your older vehicle or not. Whether you can't afford a new one or if you just like to keep that Oldtimer/Youngtimer vehicle for fun. They want it gone, and if you don't get rid of it voluntarily, then they gonna castrate the oil so it dies on you no matter what, no matter how good you take care of it. And they won't tell you they did it with the oil, because you're supposed to be stupid and think that it just had it, or make you think YOU killed it yourself. They do this in secrecy, so you will never know, but D@MN, BITOG is spilling all the secrets. D@MN those dissidents!!! IMHO opinion, a 90's Stage 1 cat is clean enough to be nice to the environment. All this new cat stuff nowadays is nothing but a farce. The difference is simply negligible, I don't care what anybody says. This is all just trying to BS the population and marketing. Not to mention that if the d@mn engine ever starts acting weird, it is almost impossible to pinpoint what sensor or emission related gadget is acting up. Also part of the plan, because most people HAVE to take it to a specialist for big money. |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by rl153 on 08/09/12 at 16:45:51 Should I add zddp additive to my 1988 buick 2.8 motor( conventional valvoline 5-30)? I don't know what type of cam it has. Thanks! I found out I have hydraulic lifters,does that mean the oil isn't a problem? |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by rfw2003 on 08/09/12 at 17:33:30 636A7966616A3E3D36360F0 wrote:
It's a push rod engine without roller lifters, It does have hydraulic lifters but essentially they wear the same as a flat tappet even though the valve spring pressure is not as high because it is a hydraulic lifter. So to answer your question, it's up to you, use the tried and true with a good ZDDP value or use the newer oils that have the friction modifiers and unproven high pressure additives. Myself on my vehicles I only use a high quality syn such as Amsoil, but I also greatly extended change intervals since the oil and the filtration system can make use of it. R.F. |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by SaVaGeEaRL on 08/09/12 at 18:10:54 My 91 Chevy truck with a 305 runs smooth as a new one (but not with as much power lol)and it has 372,000 miles on it. No roller cam, just good ole hydraulic lifters. I have been using valvoline max life 10w30. My exhaust valves seep into the manifolds which is typical due to the cheesy exhaust valve seals. Had the valve covers off last year and there's no sludge, which I attribute to 3,000 mile oils and filter changes. I've done engine jobs on all makes and models and seen some of the nastiest slugged up engines and worn out cam lobes and not any particular oil has been noted to cause either. The main thing is how often the oil is changed at least that's been my experience. I have witnessed major oils leaks hat have been spawned in older engines that have always had Dino and the owner would switch to synthetic. Seems the synthetic would run right out of any seals that were borderline weak... |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by rl153 on 08/09/12 at 18:21:26 The buick holds 5 quarts of oil ,I think valvoline has 800 ppm zddp. How much more redline zddp ,should I add? Thanks! |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by rfw2003 on 08/09/12 at 19:00:41 252C3F20272C787B7070490 wrote:
redline zddp additive has a total of 20,500 ppm of zinc in it per bottle, the bottle is 16 fl oz. That will help you figure out what you need to know to get the level of the zinc in your oil that you want. R.F. |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Cavi Mike on 08/10/12 at 04:20:26 626D776C707665676F6176040 wrote:
Because the main and rod bearings have much larger surfaces because they have matching profiles, it's much harder for the oil to be pinched by the mating surfaces. The round cam against a flat tappet? Not hard at all. Try cutting a stick of butter with the knife sideways. Pretty difficult, isn't it? That's what it's like to cut through the oil in a main or rod bearing. Now turn the knife the right way - that's what it's like on a solid cam. This really is the type of stuff you should do some research on before you run around making claims that there isn't a problem. |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Gyrobob on 08/10/12 at 09:01:19 7F5D4A55715557593C0 wrote:
Because the main and rod bearings have much larger surfaces because they have matching profiles, it's much harder for the oil to be pinched by the mating surfaces. The round cam against a flat tappet? Not hard at all. Try cutting a stick of butter with the knife sideways. Pretty difficult, isn't it? That's what it's like to cut through the oil in a main or rod bearing. Now turn the knife the right way - that's what it's like on a solid cam. This really is the type of stuff you should do some research on before you run around making claims that there isn't a problem. [/quote] Valid analogy |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by Drifter on 08/10/12 at 12:02:29 Update added to original post, see #8 and link, the link shows what year cars need what. |
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Title: Re: DONT USE CAR OIL ANYMORE! WARNING! Post by rl153 on 08/10/12 at 17:30:45 I'm going to add 4 oz of redline to my 88 buick century . There is no reason why i shouldn't ,right? Also ,my other car is a 95 buick regal 3.8 v6 . Does this engine have a roller cam ,or should I add redline to this too? ps, found out the 95 buick has a roller cam,thanks |
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