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Message started by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 10:44:56

Title: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage engine?
Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 10:44:56

This is a simple, easy to understand question.

I suspect the answer might not be so easy, so I thought I would separate the question out cleanly and put it to you guys as a separate item.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 12:12:49

:)

Massive silence ..... don't let the barbed wire and all them shell holes skeer you any --- go ahead, chip your $0.02 on into the hat.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Serowbot on 08/07/12 at 12:37:57

Collective,.. Derr... :-?...

... but I suppose it depends on how you ride...
The more you whip it,.. the more need for protection...

Did that come out dirty?... :-/...

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by SALB on 08/07/12 at 12:40:14

OK, I'll bite. I suppose it depends on whether or not the engine is highly modded, and how it's ridden. Now, out of curiosity, where did we come up with the original 1200 figure in the first place? :-?

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 14:45:35

Fair question -- answer is kinda subjective (as is the need for the 1,000 ppm question at the head of the thread)

==================

Back in the days of old, when the Kings ruled the land ....

.... actually, back in 1980-90's oil was 10w40 and it was rated SF-SG-SH during the decades without a lot of change in the grade structure other than to add more detergency and more long life anti-wear chemistry.

Oil had 1,400 to 1,600 ppm of ZDDP commonly and flat tappets were the vast norm in engine/cam/tappet technology, not the rare exception as it is today. There was no rule saying you HAD to put in that much, but if you didn't your oil wouldn't work so everybody did ....

Then came CAFE and catalytic converters and the API SJ standard. ZDDP got a cap of "no more than 1,000 ppm of ZDDP" with the SJ standard.

SM dropped it to 800 ppm

SN dropped it to 600 ppm

..... and Savage engines started dying from the ticky knocky syndrome. Faster and faster, more and more.

Meanwhile, back in the Kingdom, the heavy duty side of things was changing too.

The Heavy Duty Engine Oils started out at 1,600 ppm like the best general car oils had, then they dropped to 1,400 with CI and then dropped to the current CJ standard of 1,200 ppm of ZDDP.

Three months ago, I would have told you that 1,200 ppm was a good ZDDP amount as all HDEOs had at least that much and MOST of the expensive motorcycle oils had a lot more, but none of them had less than 1,200 ppm of ZDDP. And it would have been true.

Right now, every new VOA I see on the new SF/SG/SJ motorcycle oils are coming in right around 1,000 ppm of ZDDP. I do not know what rules drove this change, but EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE LOCALLY AVAILABLE JASO MOTORCYCLE OILS HAS REFORMULATED / REBOTTLED ITSELF IN THE LAST 2 MONTHS

.... I am still hoping to see higher numbers from somebody, but so far 1,100 is the highest seen. Lucas is the lowest, at 800 ppm, and it claims to be JASO motorcycle oil too.

So, you now understand where the current 1,200 ppm ZDDP SuzukiSavage standard came from, and how the 1,000 ppm ZDDP that you can currently get out of a motorcycle oil shows up in the topic question up in the thread header ....

..... and why we are having this discussion. If we only need 1,000 then we are golden. If we need more, we need to use HDEOs exclusively until we can find some bike oil that has what we need.

Or else be like Boule and Dave, go get yourself a bottle of ZDDP booster and start using it.

And the bike oil people still aren't saying boo about what they just did. They used to be willing to tell you what was in their "new and improved" formulations mainly because it really was new and improved.

Now we are getting SF/SG/SJ obsolete API standards loophole-style run-arounds instead of facts.

==============

Have cat converters started showing up in bikes big time? Will the same change that looks to kill off the carb equipped bikes in 2013 usher in a wave of catalytic converted equipped motorcycles ???

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by SALB on 08/07/12 at 15:11:33

I think the new JASO MB designation may be for the cat equipped bikes, not sure. How long do you think It will be before the new diesel emissions will force even tighter oil standards? They have had cat now for a while, low sulfur fuel, and now scrubbers!

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Charon on 08/07/12 at 15:27:32

Catalytic converters have indeed made the big time in motorcycles. I believe you will find every recent fuel-injected motorcycle has a cat. Even Kawasaki's carbureted 250 Ninja, redesigned in 2008, has a cat. As I understand it, the European Union's emission standards for motorcycles is even stricter than ours, and cats are the only way to meet them. I was looking at a new Enfield Bullet, and the oxygen sensor is clearly visible in the exhaust pipe. I didn't read the literature to see if it has a cat, but I expect it does.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Serowbot on 08/07/12 at 16:48:45

Yet,.. the one year they tested my bike in '06... for emissions, they couldn't get a reading...
After sitting idling for 5 or 10 minutes, and socking the entire muffler, they finally got one... a very low one...
... and my bike had a Dyna with a 150 main at the time...
;)...

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by ralfyguy on 08/07/12 at 17:50:33

6A7C6B766E7B766D190 wrote:

I sure hope it wasn't too warm there at that time or had a fan blowing on the motor, because I would have told them to go and overheat and ruin their own d@mn motor!

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 18:34:16

Logically, if I were a bike oil manufacturer and a new standard was coming out in the distance I'd want to lead that change far enough out to make sure all my old standard spec'd warehouse stock was totally used up before the deadline day.

If I didn't do this, I'd be getting cases & cases of old stock returned to me by Wally or by Advanced or by Autozone as "unsaleable".

======================

So, we got an issue coming. Before, it was laziness if you didn't buy the right spec'd oil. And some of us were lazy.

Now it is getting harder to buy the right spec'd oil period at all.

Soon, our recommended list will be a short list of a couple of HDEO oils and we will list a dino based ZDDP booster (likely Lucas). ZDDP booster for synthetic oils would likely be this mail order bride.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/1678.JPG

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Boule’tard on 08/07/12 at 20:41:59

Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage engine to do what? Go 80,000 miles in 1-mile trips, at 10,000 RPM? Probably not. Would the ZDDP requirement be different for synthetic vs. dino oil? Probably.

I am not even sure what a flat tappet looks like, I guess it is the end of the adjustment bolt where it taps on the valve stem? Seems like if there was a problem with too high a pressure, those parts would eventually round off or dish out or whatever, creating more contact area and a lower pressure not so demanding of high ZDDP. Sure there'd be loud ticking, but you should be able to take the slack out at the adjuster. I realize when the parts are no longer flat it is difficult to get a reading with a flat feeler guage. I had an old BMW that would not take a reading.. had to adjust the valves by wiggling, clicking and feel. But it worked.

Just thinking out loud. I haven't seen pics of tappet/valve damage, though there are plenty of threads about savages that clatter for one reason or another. Is the 'flat tappet' disadvantage the only thing about the savage engine that would make it require a higher ZDDP level?

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by rfw2003 on 08/07/12 at 20:49:36

2A273D242D3C293A2C480 wrote:

In the Savage's engine what would be considered the flat tappet part, is the paddle end of the rocker arm that is on the cam lobes. In flat tappet automotive engines they are just a chuck of cylindrical metal riding the cam under the pushrods.
R.F.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by ralfyguy on 08/07/12 at 20:49:49

39342E373E2F3A293F5B0 wrote:

I think he's actually talking about the cam followers. Nowadays they put rollers on them. On the Savage it's just cam lobes grinding on the valve actuator arms producing friction.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 21:22:28

Here you go Boule, these are the little puppers ......

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Condition_of_tappets.JPG

...... which are rubbed and scrubbed upon by the cam lobes .... which lobes are left complete with the heat treat oxide coating to make sure they have lots of nasty sharp oxide crystals to "do wear" with .....

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/orientation_of_new_cam.JPG

..... and milder forms of this disease are caused by low ZDDP acting out over time. We call it the "clicky tappy" disease because that is what it sounds like.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/near.JPG

These particular ugly eat ups were caused by low oil pressure, just to make sure we are totally clear about the examples shown. Your ZDDP only examples would be smoother looking and not dished nearly as much, but the idea is the same.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Boule’tard on 08/07/12 at 21:32:10

Ah thanks guys, I got it.

So as those things wear into little arcs from the cam rubbing on them, is the flatness a diminishing problem? Never as good as rollers of course, but it still seems to me that they'd eventually settle into a stable configuration, same as when I thought the problem was at the other end of the rocker arm ;D

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 21:37:43

Once initiated, the wear doesn't stop. How many times per year do you want to adjust your valves anyway?

With ones as ugly as these you can do it every few weeks ..... and once your cam lobes start to go you lose motor efficiency and power.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Boule’tard on 08/07/12 at 21:43:27

I figured once the tappets bedded into the cam you'd have to adjust valves less often, due to the higher contact area/lower pressure. But you are saying the more they wear, the more they wear? Maybe it scrubs the temper off?

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/07/12 at 21:59:49

I'm saying the wear takes place on both parts, with the paddles catching about twice as much wear, but the height of the lobe peak being affected a lot more proportionately -- the area of material removed from the paddles being more than the lobe peak, but the effect of the lobe peak removal being much larger (and unrecoverable). Not all that much cc's of steel actually in that cam lobe peak.

As you figured out, you can adjust for the paddle wear, but when the lobe is partially gone and the valves don't move as much or as fast any more you are just screwed for the performance you don't have any more.

Exhaust cam min spec when new 1.4338"
Total service min wear limit - 1.4220"

Total amount you can wear off the tip 0.0118"
before your performance goes totally away

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Foxman276 on 08/08/12 at 06:30:44

So I read the 13 page thread, and then this one, and there is lots of interesting stuff for me as a first time bike owner (mine is a new 2011, BTW).

So here is what I have gathered:

Oil used to have more ppm of ZDDP
Oil now has less ppm ZDDP
Some people think this is a big deal
Some people don't think this is a big deal
Some people believe that the lower ZDDP is directly responsible for unprecedented wear in our engines
No one can say quantitatively what the magic number is for ppm
No one can say quantitatively that lower ppm of ZDDP is the reason for the ticks and knocks

Which is what made me happy when I read this thread, because I had the same question: because it questions the threshold (ie: maybe 1200 is more than we need for "perfect" lube). But maybe 1000 is more than enough. Or maybe it's 800.

My issue with some of the posts is they sound a little like fear mongering: find an oil with a high ppm of ZDDP or the sky will fall. There were a couple of posters in the long thread who said they have high mileage bikes and they haven't done anything extraordinary in terms of oil selection, and have no problems. Obviously, these opinions are inconsistent with excessive wear argument.

I'm a fan of dialogue but I'm an even bigger fan of facts. There are a number of suppositions being made on this topic.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/08/12 at 06:46:44

Yup, there are. Suppositions. Questions.

Same things seem to be going on here, and here, and here.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lack+of+ZDDP+killing+engines&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs

=====================

Let's talk about those high mileage bikes, most of which are the early Savage models.

Think about it a bit, over 3/4 of their years and miles were on the old high ZDDP oils because THAT'S ALL THERE WAS BACK THEN. New bikes bought new in the last few years are having the very early issues with the ticky tappy syndrome. I wonder why that could be.

Is this fear mongering? Ah, you admit there is something to be afraid of, potentially then.

All oil formulators back when they were unregulated put in 1,400 to 1,600 ppm of ZDDP. Racing oil formulators still put in 1,600 to 1,850 ppm of ZDDP. Up until 3 months ago Mobil 1 put in 1,350 ppm of ZDDP into their bike oils. Web Cam insists that you use a high 1,800 ppm ZDDP oil for break in if you want any warranty period on your Lancer cam. All these formulators had a reason to do this, you know.

Now the rules have apparently changed again and all bike oils are coming in with much lower ZDDP (800 to 1,100 ppm)

So, you have read and are not convinced because you think you are being sold something. Natural enough reaction for a guy type, I do believe.

hmmmmm .....

Last time I got accused of "paranoia mongering" it was over the stock vac petcock which I was saying was a root issue with many of the "CARBURETOR ISSUES" people were chasing endlessly at the time.

How did that one turn out?

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Boule’tard on 08/08/12 at 07:46:35

6340484A494040495E2C0 wrote:

All oil formulators back when they were unregulated put in 1,400 to 1,600 ppm of ZDDP.

That is a pretty strong point. The amount the designers were putting in before the cat.converter issue came up is probably the sweet spot in terms of engine protection. Now they have to either compromise by cutting it back, or come up with alternative ways ( calcium??) to prevent galling that won't muck up the cats.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Boule’tard on 08/08/12 at 08:15:03

183126333F306C69685E0 wrote:

My issue with some of the posts is they sound a little like fear mongering: find an oil with a high ppm of ZDDP or the sky will fall.

Nah. I think we can agree that engine wear due to inadequate ZDDP is non-catastrophic, it is not like the latest oil will cause you to toss a valve. There is a continuum of wear vs. ZDDP level that hits a point of diminished returns, where increasing beyond it will not help your engine any more. Based on the old oil designs, that level is probably around 1200ppm.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/08/12 at 09:04:56

Hark, is this a budding consensus we hear a blossoming, with the fresh little petals of truth each saying that 1,200 ppm of ZDDP is the minimum the Savage should have for best rocker arm tappet & cam life?

If so, what are you going to recommend to the newbies that they should be doing ???

What oils should they be buying?

:)

Fair warning, in six months to a year you may be in a position where "motorcycle oils" are not good enough for the antique style Savage engine and you are going to have to have a new mantra about JASO as the current crop of weak sister motorcycle oils are all already sporting the JASO MA label.

Heaven help us when JASO goes over to the MB cat converter standard.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Boule’tard on 08/08/12 at 09:17:19

My scooter has a cat. converter, but I'll be dammed if I'm going to skimp on oil quality just to accommodate that.

A couple of solutions come to mind. First, an idea from the Honda CB guys (SOHC4.net). You can send your rockers off to be coated with a super hard finish. I don't think it is nikasil but whatever it is, it works for parts that rub straight against the cam.

The other idea is to just keep adding a ZDDP supplement like that redline break-in stuff. I am reminded of "Real Lead" and other additives old hot rodders put in their fuel to protect the valves from unleaded gas. Putting ZDDP in the oil is less trouble than that. We'll just have to see what's available at the time and calculate how much ZDDP to add.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by SALB on 08/08/12 at 10:21:35

Hmmm....I wonder how much it would cost to have roller rockers made for our engine? Probably not cheap, but it would put this whole zppd issue to rest.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/08/12 at 10:51:52

Drifter just polled Crane Cams and Mobil -- 1,500 ppm ZDDP is minimum they recommended to him.

They say the car oils have been in the dumper for a while and the JASO bike oils just went down the loo, too.
(Mobile 1 right along with the rest of them).

Drifter is saying he was told to use a supplement on top of the HDEOs, that 1,200 ppm of ZDDP isn't enough.

Read this thread, the points made about valve guides are new and alarming (but falls in line with the oil loss we have been seeing going on)

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344446001

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Dave on 08/08/12 at 14:26:53

Man.....this is making my head spin. I just stopped by Advance Auto to see what kind of oils they had for motorcycles. The oil bottles had a MA-2 rating? I had not heard of that....I was just looking for the MA rating. I googled and this is what I found:

JASO effectively added the JASO-MA2 & JASO-MA1 specifications by splitting the existing JASO-MA spec into two groups by friction-performance (MA1 is the lower friction oils; MA2 the higher friction oils suitable for bikes).
The change came out as final/approved in 2006 in response to catalytic converters becoming widespread in bikes (EPA/EU requirements); it was also prompted in part by the car-lobby of the JASO organization wanting to specify a subset of the JASO-MA oils for use in their cars (the low friction oils, which become JASO-MA1). JASO-MA2 is just starting to show up in the US Market as a rating because this is the first year that catalytic converter-equipped bikes are widespread.

Aside from splitting the MA spec into two sub-groups, the new specs add a phosphorous content ceiling (better protect catalytic converters by using less, but phosphorous is also anti-wear additive, so it could be less start-up protection). JASO-MA2 being the heavier friction oils most suitable for motorcycle use will become the common standard for Japanese-built (and many Euro-built) motorcycles for the '08 and later model years.

Note that JASO-MA2 can now be API SJ formulated, but API SL & API SM formulations still directly contradict JASO-MA/MA1/MA2 standards because of the use of friction modifiers that are not wet-clutch compatible.

The JASO-MA (no suffix number) still remains in effect as well. For the Kats, API SF/SG + JASO-MA rated oils will remain the oils of choice until they are no longer available.

Everyone go out and buy a case or two of your favorite oil.....and stock it away for safe keeping.

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/08/12 at 14:50:03

Well there, Bill -- looks like you get your wish .... we are only going to list your two most hated oils in the entire world on our Recommended list along with a recommended ZDDP booster.

You get to spray yer Billish juice endlessly now with full justification as obviously Oldfeller arranged this whole thing as an attack on Klotz.

And who knows, they may actually take the JASO MA off the Rotella jugs because it isn't the current spec any more and the Rotella oils have way too much ZDDP for MA2 or MB or whatever they are gonna call it. Boy, you can have a field day with that, lemme tell ya.

And then when your Klotz reformulates itself to JASO MA2, or JASO MB or whatever they wind up calling it then ol'Bill be faced with the hardest choice of his oil warring career.

He may have to run something other than RED oil.

;D ;D ;D ;D

psssst !!! Bill !!!! Buy a bottle of RedLine ZDDP booster and boost up your Klotz MA2/MB up to usable strength and never tell anyone that you are doing it .... That's the ticket fer ya !!!! Fool 'um !!!

It will still be all red and they will never be able to prove you are doing it.

:D

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by Oldfeller on 08/08/12 at 15:05:28

Incoming .... BITOG says the new JASO grades can not only be formulated puny, but they are ALLOWED to shear out of grade.

What lunacy is this? :-?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1883244

Title: Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Post by bill67 on 08/08/12 at 15:24:41

Klotz mx4 15/40 Hi Performance TechniPlate JASO-MA 4T oil .