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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Very bad cranking /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1343736383 Message started by mmg123 on 07/31/12 at 05:06:23 |
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Title: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 07/31/12 at 05:06:23 Bad cranking Ok guys my bike use to start no problems Recently the battery kept going dead So now i have a new one fully charged the bike cranks very slow and at the odd crank starts but kills the battery So i have stripped back all the wiring no breaks or bad conections It just started to crank over very slow and i mean slow even with jump leads from car attached same cranks slow then every odd crank starts And if you take off either jump lead the bike runs bad and clock lights flicker put pos lead back on its fine It seem has thou its drawing a lot of power to me because it use to whiz over when cranking |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Oldfeller on 07/31/12 at 05:12:37 Is your decompression solenoid correctly adjusted? Does it click every time you try to start the bike? Are your valves correctly adjusted? |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/01/12 at 05:37:45 Valves are adjusted corectly and yes the solidnoid clicks and readjusted to 5mm from body of solidnoid done at tdc pulling cable |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/01/12 at 05:55:52 Check the ground on the case, right side. If you crank it & it gets warm there, for sure its resistive, but the easy thing is just bust it loose, clean it up & put it back together. This may be why your other battery bit the weenie,,If that checks good, check all the connections to the battery. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/01/12 at 23:56:24 Thank you for your Do you mean ground on the solinoid |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/02/12 at 05:43:31 NO,, Theres a ground on the engine case. Look over where the clutch actuator goes thru the case, its back in there.Of course, a ban connection is a bad connection, so, every one of them needs a lookin at, |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Routy on 08/02/12 at 06:09:23 If it runs bad when either jumper is removed, the charging system is not working first of all. If you put the neg jumper on the engine, and the other directly to the started terminal, and it cranks slowly, then the starter is drawing too much current (may be defective) If it just won't crank over, could be because the comp release is not in the circuit. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/03/12 at 01:52:37 I removed the ground and it was clean but still give another clean checked connections all are good Its still the same Can the charging system make it give bad cranking drawing power too much instead of giving it |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Routy on 08/03/12 at 06:15:51 A malfunctioning charging system will not cause slow cranking speed, IF the battery is for sure fully charged. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/03/12 at 18:50:02 How about going back to the basics? I'm going to assume no mechanical problems with the engine if as you say it runs and you haven't done anything lately like taking it apart. If you can push it in gear with the spark plug out and ignition off then it isn't likely something wrong inside the engine. Remove the spark plug and ground the ignition. Does it spin over better then? That would indicate that the decompression solenoid isn't doing its job. If it still spins slow with the plug out then you may have bad wiring or a bad starter. You can do voltage checks. Digital meters are cheap; I got one "free with purchase" with a coupon from HF. For our purposes they are fine. Connect a good battery, like from a car to the battery terminals through jumper cables. Check the voltage drop from the motorcycle battery terminal negative to the motor case when cranking. It should be a very low value, like one or two tenths of a volt. Same for the drop between the battery positive terminal and starter terminal. If the voltage drops are within reason and it still spins slow with the spark plug out check the voltage across the motorcycle battery terminals, with jumper cables connected to a good battery. If that voltage is low then you either have bad jumper cable connections, the car battry is bad or the starter has an internal short. Turn on the headlights of the car that has the "good" battery. If they go dim or out when you are trying to start the Suzuki then you are drawing too much current or the car battery is shot, not likely if it runs the car OK. Too much current means that the starter has a problem internally. Let us know what you find. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/03/12 at 21:53:53 If the starter get hot cranking it just a few seconds, thats a clue,mite need to have it tested. Pretty rare to see one fail.. Are you absolutely certain all the Big Wire connections are clean & tite? I like the PLug OUt idea, & Look at the decomp on the head, be sure its working,its on the left side, you can follow the cable from the decomp solenoid. How old is it? How many miles? Mite be in the posts, I missed it if so., |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/06/12 at 04:19:45 Ok when you take plug out she spins over no problem So i put plug back bad cranking So i have double checked decompression solinoid adjustment i just nipped it up to 4mm at tdc Still the same problem and it does click everytime you hit start switch but either cranks or just sits there click click |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/06/12 at 05:16:48 Ps i have removed the sidestand switch because it has never worked since i have had the bike Do i join the black and wire to the green and white wire where i snipped it off . |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by 87 savage on 08/06/12 at 18:24:02 Sounds like 2 things are going on. 1 If when booster cables are connected with the bike running and you remove one of the jumper cables and it starts to crap out your charging system is not working correctly. And 2 if your decomp is adjusted correctly, and it sounds like you have adjusted it correctly, and your solenoid just clicks when you try to start the bike, your battery voltage is too low. Voltage should be 12.75 volts minimum to crank well. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Routy on 08/06/12 at 18:53:43 Read his lips, he said he got a new fully charged battery. He said he checked and cleaned all the connections. Its kinda point'in to a bad starter motor. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/06/12 at 21:31:46 I have borrowed the starter off my friends bike and its still the same |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/06/12 at 21:35:54 Hit the starter, touch the solenoid, touch connectors, resistive connections create heat. If the solenoid isnt making good connection inside, it otta get hot, or, you could just get one outta a junk yard & wire it in for a test. Shouldnt cost more tha $4.00 |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Cavi Mike on 08/06/12 at 23:44:27 The easiest way to tell if the contacts are bad in the solenoid is to simply bridge the terminals with a screwdriver. If the bike turns over faster, it's the solenoid. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/07/12 at 00:42:13 Or, bypass it by jumping it off with cables. If youre gonna bypass it with a screwdriver, make sure you jump Big Wire to Big Wire & not just hitting the small leads that fire the solenoid. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by 87 savage on 08/07/12 at 02:29:37 26262C7A79784B0 wrote:
Hey Routy, read my lips, If your going to trouble shoot cranking issues the first thing you check is battery voltage. Yes I read that he has a new battery in the first sentence but you cant assume it's fully charged. Gotta actually check it with a multimeter. ::) Mmg123, do you have a multimeter or can you borrow one? Your working in the dark without one. Check the battery voltage, then check it at the starter when cranking. Like John in Kali said there should be very little drop in voltage. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Routy on 08/07/12 at 08:16:06 616C6265727431373938000 wrote:
Hey Routy, read my lips, If your going to trouble shoot cranking issues the first thing you check is battery voltage. Yes I read that he has a new battery in the first sentence but you cant assume it's fully charged. Gotta actually check it with a multimeter. ::) Mmg123, do you have a multimeter or can you borrow one? Your working in the dark without one. Check the battery voltage, then check it at the starter when cranking. Like John in Kali said there should be very little drop in voltage.[/quote] Well pardon me,....did you read where he had a car battery jumpered to the new fully charged battery too ? I guess I just assumed w/ 750 CCA, it mite have enuff voltage to spin it normally. BTW, on a brand new OEM battery the voltage drops from 12.6 to 10.5 while starting,......slightly more than "very little" |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/07/12 at 09:20:02 Since the starter, being the Only Part that actually USES any Current in the starting cycle ( except for the current used to close the solenoid), has been cleared, & since we have seen evidence of PLenty of Amperage being available, AND since we know all the wires are actually connected, because it Does Spin, just not well, we are left with Only One REal potential problem. Resistance to current flow.. One MOre Time.. Hit the starter & start touching things,, you feel heat, you found resistance. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/07/12 at 09:26:22 Thank you a i am in the process of getting a multimeter and i am going to put battery back on charge This is doing my head in but all is a part of the learning about the bike i love Thanks guys will keep you updated |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by verslagen1 on 08/07/12 at 09:26:26 7E7E74222120130 wrote:
Normal, needs battery to smooth out voltage. Quote:
Did you have the stator cover off lately? |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/07/12 at 12:53:10 Once you get the meter, it should be easy to figure out the problem. I would suggest getting some alligator clip jumper cables to connect the meter to the places to be measured. Then you can hit the starter button with one hand and hold the meter with the other and not have the test leads come loose while things are in motion. Most cheap meters are 3 ½ digits, which mean that they will measure down to one one--hundredth of a volt on the 20 volt range. What is the voltage across the starter when cranking? I bet it’s a pretty low value. To narrow the problem down, take readings both at rest and while the starter is being operated at the following places: Battery positive to battery negative Battery negative to starter body (use a mounting bolt head) Battery positive to starter solenoid- battery side Starter solenoid battery side to starter solenoid- starter side Starter solenoid starter side to starter power in I bet you will find a voltage drop somewhere in the circuit, or that the battery just doesn’t have enough juice. You said you also used a jumper cable from a car battery. What was the voltage drop from the car battery to the starter while cranking? Your jumper cables may not be making good contact. I’m suspecting that there is a bad cable or connection somewhere. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Routy on 08/07/12 at 16:26:23 69424C792B0 wrote:
Curious, what are you checking w/ "battery neg to starter body" I doubt you'll find a voltage drop there. In fact you better not find any voltage there at all. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by John in Kalifornia on 08/07/12 at 18:42:38 Isn't there a cable betwixt the 2? John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/10/12 at 00:50:14 The only thing that gets hot when trying to start is the voltage regulator sat on the top of rear fender ??? Could this be the problem guys |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Charon on 08/10/12 at 04:49:36 Easy way to find out - completely disconnect the regulator. You don't have to remove it. Make sure the battery is charged, or use your jumpers, and see if the motorcycle starts normally. If the regulator is defective it could also be the cause of the battery discharging. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/10/12 at 06:49:14 Ok guys temper is going i am going to beat it to liquid metal I have a mutimeter set it for volt reading at 20 i am not sure how to use it Further more i tried the bridge the screwdriver on starter solinoid made no difference in cranking speed now the solinoid wont do nothing just clicks tried screwdriver again nothing luckely i have a spare put that on thats the same when you bridge it nowt not even contact spark Oh and sorry the rectifier was only hot when it runs |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/10/12 at 07:07:31 I sure understand wanting to just get mad & hammer on it, but, I can promise, youll regret it. If you "bridge the solenoid", you arent supposed to touch any contacts other than Battery + cable in & Battery cable out. Now, if the goal is to start something & ya dont have the key, Then you short between a hot lead & the coil that Engages the solenoid. In your case, we know the solenoid is being activated, we dont know how well the contacts that carry the starter current are working, If you cranked on it for 6 seconds or so & it didnt get warmer than room temp, it is working fine., However, if ya messed up a wire & now it wont even fire, then its time to look at that. Explain , in detail, what ya did while jumping wires on the solenoid. I dont think its even possible to actually hurt one doing that. YOu mite not get what ya want, but its not hurt. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/10/12 at 07:50:47 I put a srewdriver between the pos and neg big wires on the starter solinoid and it cranked just the same slow So i then put the other stater solinoid on i have got the same thing slow crank then click I then went to do the same with screwdiver on that one nothing Put the other one back nothing click click thats all i get Batt now dead back on charge Tried again jump leads from car still same thing |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/10/12 at 08:22:09 & youve pulled the plug & hit the starter & it spins nicely, I remember. Perplexing problem,, I dont remember, have you used the car to go straight to the starter motor itself? Need to hit the starter button, w/o the jumper cable on the starter, get it spinning, then clip it on & see what it does. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/11/12 at 01:08:00 I got it spinning nicely with plug out As soon as you put plug in it cranks slow I have added a problem now both stater solinoids when bridged with a screwdriver big wires of course do nothing now |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Routy on 08/11/12 at 05:42:16 5C5C56000302310 wrote:
Then the negative (ground) side is the problem. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Routy on 08/11/12 at 06:12:04 6C6C66303332010 wrote:
Meaning no disrespect......but in reality, w/ even minimal technical experience, this is one of the easiest problems to diagnois there ever was, especially because of its consistency. Judging from the 2 statements above, it is time that you get some help from a more technicaly inclined person. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by 87 savage on 08/11/12 at 07:35:02 79766C776B6D7E7C747A6D1F0 wrote:
Meaning no disrespect......but in reality, w/ even minimal technical experience, this is one of the easiest problems to diagnois there ever was, especially because of its consistency. Judging from the 2 statements above, it is time that you get some help from a more technicaly inclined person. [/quote] Have to say I agree with Routy. No disrespect, but, we are three pages into this post and we still dont know what the battery voltage is. Also leaning towards ground cable. Have you done as Justin said and hooked booster cables directly to the starter? If you do try that, positive booster cable to post on starter, negative battery cable directly to engine case not neg battery cable. If it spins good then it's probably the neg cable like Routy said. Since you have determined the starter is ok, if it still turns over slow then the problem is most likely in the engine. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Cavi Mike on 08/11/12 at 09:34:44 It sounds like you've drained your battery while doing all of this. The battery doesn't have infinite power, you need to keep it on a charger while doing this. I am going to have to agree with Routy and 87 on this and third the recommendation of getting someone with more experience to help you. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by rustysavage on 08/11/12 at 17:56:02 I have been following this with interest. It describes my symptoms with my bike. Brand new agm battery installed May 2012, my bike sat for the last 3 weeks went for a ride stop for coffee bike slow to crank / no start boost it rode home. Bike started fine until the next morning same symptoms. 12.6 volts at battery, check voltage drop across solenoid, ground and starter cables- all ok less 0.001 V. Ground clean on case. Decomp solenoid working. Check for a power draw with a test light between + post and + cable with everything off- no draw. Should start right--wrong should have checked battery Volts during cranking-- drops to 8.65 volts must have min 9.6 volts or better during cranking. Replace battery 12.8 volts 10.88 volts cranking starts and runs now. Just because a battery is new and shows full charge do not mean a thing. If I would have checked cranking volts first it would have saved me alot of time. My brain fart for the day. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Cavi Mike on 08/11/12 at 19:03:32 Your connections most likely were not tight. A battery does not lose its ability to maintain a charge after 3 weeks of disuse. If the battery was bad when it was shipped to you, you would have noticed immediately. 3 weeks isn't long enough for a battery to go from good to bad unless something made it go bad - like over-charging. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by rustysavage on 08/11/12 at 22:03:15 charging volts @ idle 14.20v and @ 1/4 to 1/2 throttle 13.85v unless its overcharging while riding?? When I get a new to me bike all electrical connections are checked, cleaned and electrical grease applied. Sometime because a part is new doesn't mean its good. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/12/12 at 08:01:47 Lets stay on this guys problem, I would definitely put voltage straight on the starter & see what it does, jump it from a car. If it spins right, good, if not,, well,, Im seriously confused, Make sure YOUR battery is fully charged, |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/13/12 at 04:43:29 Ok guys neg jump lead on bolt on starter pos on post of starter nothing Took starter out Neg lead on body pos on post whizzy round like crazy |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Routy on 08/13/12 at 06:27:09 Yep, w/o a load it mite run fine, but doesn't mean anything. I coudda swore you said you tried another starter and it still turned slow ! Give it up man ! Under edit: I have borrowed the starter off my friends bike and its still the same |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/13/12 at 06:42:29 Yes i did its all part of learning makes you a better macanic Some people learn the hard way and some pick it up easy So what are you saying give up Am not one for quiting i want to learn if thats ok |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/13/12 at 06:47:12 Just tried it with his starter again still same Oh and i have figured out how to use multimeter 12.89v battery after charge |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Routy on 08/13/12 at 07:12:03 6363693F3C3D0E0 wrote:
Just for info, the max standing voltage on a fully charged battery (SOC) is 12.7-8. Anything above that is a peak voltage from being charged. Voltage reading under normal starter load should be not lower than 10.5 The larger the battery, the higher this voltage reading will be. While jumped to a large car battery, the voltage could stay near 12 volts. On edit Standing voltage on full charge after setting 24 hrs, can be 12.7-8 Age and condition of battery can vari standing voltage from 12.8, down to 12.3, and still perform ok. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/13/12 at 07:44:08 Thank you i am so glad you guys on here can help This is the battery reading from overnight charge brand new maintanance free Please bare with me electrics are not my subject car body repairer yes 29yrs macanics yes ok at that Trying to learn please It is defo reading12.89 v |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/13/12 at 07:49:55 Ps I did the starter test with no battery connected |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by Routy on 08/13/12 at 08:07:09 4B4B41171415260 wrote:
That is ok using quality 4-6 ga cables. But the average jumpers use 12 ga cable, which going thru 6-12ft length can drop voltage, possibly to the point of not not being adequate to start the Savage. If you come to a defininte conclusion as to what is causing the slow cranking, please let us know. So far, I'm not sure you have found the problem. You are going to have to do some "load testing", including your new battery. |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/13/12 at 08:21:29 Me to if i tried my friends starter Will have stater tested then now i have a better understanding of the multimeter And take it from there |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by 87 savage on 08/13/12 at 16:18:04 30303A6C6F6E5D0 wrote:
Ok mmg123, Routy is right when he says you can't definitely rule out the starter by testing it without a load, but, since two starters (one of them a known good starter) did the same thing, I would be inclined to rule out the starter...for now. I need you to check the cam chain. Sounds to me like something is preventing the engine from turning over normally. How many miles on it? Pop off one of the valve inspection covers, then, on the left side engine cover there is a slotted plug remove that and use a 17 mm socket to turn the crankshaft and observe the valves and rocker arms to make sure they are moving when the engine turns over. The engine spun good with the spark plug out because there is no compression. But with the spark plug in, if the valves are not opening at the right time, or not at all the engine will turn REAL hard. Lets try and rule out the cam chain. :-? |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/13/12 at 23:51:16 The bike runs no problem if i let it crank long enough to fire up I also checked timing and valves when i checked decompression valve adjustment |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by 87 savage on 08/14/12 at 02:40:51 56565C0A09083B0 wrote:
Oh! Well that blows a hole in that theory. Ahhhh, just reread the beginning of this thread. Oh well, back to the drawing board. ::) |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/14/12 at 02:59:50 Have you gone straight to the starter with the power yet? |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/14/12 at 05:06:50 Ok guys took starter to be tested Man took it apart guess what the little bearing on top seized armitor checks ok brushes to new bearing fitted like new This sounds really weird my friend not happy put his starter back on same problem Oh dear took it off and took it with mine to the same man He opened it up what a mess checks out worse than mine friend said wish he hadnt let me try it now His brushes are worn and its really full of junk in there Man it will be ok cleaned and new brushes Pick them up in the morning let you guys know if this is for certain the problem |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/14/12 at 07:00:05 Ps my friends starter i am paying for it to be fixed but its like the man said in the shop , its a good job i did ask my friend could i try his because it was on its way diwn anyway , was in shop with man and he could stop mine on a block of wood He could just stop my friends from spinnig but free spinnig it was very slow Mine was faster but cuild be stopped due to the bearing seized |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/14/12 at 08:12:03 Wow,, what a hair puller! Take an item off a bike & swap , only to discover, its in bad shape, too, tho, it WAS working just fine? Im just amazed,,.& confused, & I Hope this is a problem solved, |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/14/12 at 08:20:17 Me to friend you have been of great help And i mean great help to me Like i said electrics noway my cup of tea Cant wait now till morn to pick them up and try ;D I hope |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/14/12 at 09:16:23 You did a good thing taking the starter to be tested.. A very frustrating situation, fouled up more by 2 wimpy starters, &, to top it off, I dont recall ever finding a worn out starter on one of these,, busted teeth, yea, but the motor itself, brushes & bushings & bearings, Oh MY! |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by 87 savage on 08/14/12 at 17:16:09 6A6A60363534070 wrote:
Wow! What are the odds two starters would be gone at the same time?! Just glad to hear you may have found the problem. Now I'm anxious for you to get it back to hear if that was really the problem. :D |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by mmg123 on 08/14/12 at 23:59:21 Yip yip guys its a glourious day its not only my daughter 16th birthday ,the bike has been reborn THE STARTER was the problem I also have a happy friend to,it cost 30euro for both to be sorted Party time what a day i am so happy. I cant thank everybody enough for having the pacients and sticking me on this You guys are just the BEST BEST BEST Small ride time Then party YEAH ;D 8-) ;D 8-) ;D |
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Title: Re: Very bad cranking Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/15/12 at 01:10:07 Go have fun,, Happy Birthday to the Girl. |
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