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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change... /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1343701115 Message started by Serowbot on 07/30/12 at 19:18:35 |
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Title: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change... Post by Serowbot on 07/30/12 at 19:18:35 Former skeptic does 180' on Climate Change... Richard Muller: 'Humans Are Almost Entirely The Cause' Of Climate Change "Humans are almost entirely the cause" of climate change, according to a scientist who once doubted that global warming even existed. Last year, Richard Muller walked back years of climate change skepticism in light of new research. But Sunday's comments go one step further. Muller wrote in an NYT op-ed that after exhaustive research, he believes that an increase of greenhouse gases can be closely linked to the rise in the earth's temperature. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Starlifter on 07/30/12 at 22:24:02 'Koch-Funded Study Finds ‘Global Warming Is Real’ (...and the cause is human.) ...No sh1t... I understand that the global climate has varied wildly over the last billion or so years. But now when a million years of change show up in a hundred years of data....data which happens to correspond to the "progress" of industry....that maybe the information should be taken seriously. Unchecked population growth, the disappearance of critical plant and animal species, the over-exploitation of energy resources, and the rapidly warming climate are all combining to bring mounting disaster on the Earth's environment. Those of us who believe in science and logic are increasingly fatalistic, believing that we have already passed the point of no return. I find myself increasingly in that camp. Certainly the power players in all this have no intention of changing course. It's COMMON SENSE. Maybe you've never traveled to the other side of the globe, maybe you've never looked down on the earth from 40,000 feet and realized -- "holy sh1t, it's not that huge after all!". Common sense should tell anyone that you can't just keep pumping CO2 and sulfur and what-not into the Zip-lock bag which is our atmosphere without it having some sort of impact! You can only justify the profit motive only for so long. Eventually you have to realize that you will have sons and daughters and grandchildren, and that they didn't have a vote in your political errors. They just hope to be able to breathe clean air and drink clean water. There is NO REASON not to accept and embrace reductions in the pollutants which scientific evidence has proven to be harmful to human health. Unless it's money. ....brace yourselves gentle readers, here comes the "Climate Change is a Liberal Hoax" bunch who KNOW it's a hoax cause Rush and FOX told them so. ;D |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/30/12 at 22:41:06 Yea,, big deal,, no one cared a week ago when I posted a retraction by one of the first warmlarmists, |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Starlifter on 07/30/12 at 22:50:39 JOG, why is it in your interest to deny science?? The team leading the "deny the facts" charge are the industry captains who know that pollution reduction will cost them money that will cut their profit margins. They pay big money to FOX and the radio clowns to convince the sheeple that GW/CC is a hoax... ...I don't get it. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/31/12 at 02:49:18 I dont deny science when I can be assured it isnt just an agenda writ large by scientists. Climate gate,The raw data was destroyed.Too many things have taken away from them. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by WebsterMark on 07/31/12 at 05:36:00 I understand that the global climate has varied wildly over the last billion or so years. But now when a million years of change show up in a hundred years of data....data which happens to correspond to the "progress" of industry....that maybe the information should be taken seriously. Unchecked population growth, the disappearance of critical plant and animal species, the over-exploitation of energy resources, and the rapidly warming climate are all combining to bring mounting disaster on the Earth's environment. Those of us who believe in science and logic are increasingly fatalistic, believing that we have already passed the point of no return. I find myself increasingly in that camp. Certainly the power players in all this have no intention of changing course. It's COMMON SENSE. Maybe you've never traveled to the other side of the globe, maybe you've never looked down on the earth from 40,000 feet and realized -- "holy sh1t, it's not that huge after all!". Common sense should tell anyone that you can't just keep pumping CO2 and sulfur and what-not into the Zip-lock bag which is our atmosphere without it having some sort of impact! Okay, if you’re going to claim science and logic, let’s look at that drivel you just posted from a scientific point of view. First paragraph: Unchecked population growth: what is the basis for this? What is ‘checked’ population growth? What data is being used to say the population is too large? What critical species? I am 51 years old and have heard and seen this comment for as long as I can remember. Name me 25 critical species that are gone? What energy resource is in short supply? The last 10 years shows no global increase in temperature. What rapidly warming climate is he referring to? Second paragraph: past the point of no return? What does that mean? Is he saying the temp will continue to increase to the point the planet will become uninhabitable? Common sense paragraphs: I was on a plane traveling at 500 miles per hour for 2 ½ hours yesterday. Assuming you did not fly yesterday, does common sense tell you I gained mass and my time passed more slowly than your time? But it happened, I gained mass and my time did not pass the same as your time. Does common sense tell you that's true? Is ‘common sense’ a scientifically defined term? Looking down from 40,000 feet is relative. I see wide expanses of emptiness. Who defines crowded? I already told you the population of the world could fit easily inside the state of Texas. Is that the definition of a crowded planet? million years of change show up in a hundred years of data by the way, 100 years is 1/10,000th of a million. Are you so sure that data from 1/10,000th is proof of a trend when you have no exact data from the remaining 999,900 years? Is this what passes for your idea of science and logic? |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by splash07 on 07/31/12 at 07:08:25 0C2B3E2D3336392B3A2D5F0 wrote:
+1 |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by splash07 on 07/31/12 at 07:27:21 497B7C6D6A7B6C537F6C751E0 wrote:
OK, here we go again. Mark, What do you define as science, is what we have been doing to estimate climate change, sea level rise, and habitat shift not science? Are you a trained scientist and therefore qualified to interpret the results of modern research? Do you know the intricate workings of the planet's ecosystem better than an ecologist? As for the population comments lets look back to this: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1338441755/0 specifically reply #14 Aslo, here is a website (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/extinct-animals-in-the-last-100-years.html) with a list of species that have gone extinct in the last 100 years, well over 25. As a Zoologist (BS) I believe all species no matter how big or little are critical, they all were designed to play important roles and fill important niches in their respective ecosystems. As for energy resources in short supply, well relative to what? Oil and gas are not in short supply compared to what we think is there and unavailable due to technological restrictions. But oil and gas are in short supply when compared to the demand. Also water is in short supply in some areas. Water is an energy resource, we use lots of hydroelectric power in this country, and others. Look at the Colorado river, almost nothing at all, maybe nothing at all, by the time it makes it to the ocean, thats not natural is it? Mark? Point of no return does not necessarily mean uninhabitable, what it means is we will not be able to undo the damage done in our lifetime. This will be the loss of prime agricultural land, water sources, and clean air. Populations will drop at this point and the earth will go into a natural population/resource (similar to a predator/prey model) cycle. I am not going anywhere near the common sense comments, as it is clear webster has none. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by arteacher on 07/31/12 at 08:07:22 0B393E2F28392E113D2E375C0 wrote:
Unchecked population growth-with 7 billion people, millions of people are starving because there is not enough food to eat. Basic fact: if all the food were distributed evenly among the entire population, we couldn't produce enough to feed us all for very long. Past the point of no return: The perma-frost is starting to melt, which will release massive amounts of methane into the atmosphere. Once that happens there will be no return to life as we know it. It is doubtful that even a COMPLETE stop in the production of greenhouse gasses RIGHT NOW will prevent this. The ocean temperatures are rising, killing off massive amounts of plankton, which provide a large percentage of the oxygen we breathe, and is the base of the oceanic food chain, resulting in a greatly reduced fish population. The clear cutting of rain forest to provide marginally arable land for food crops is reducing the other main source of oxygen. I am sure the planet will survive once the main problem it is facing (us) has been delt with, (the planet WILL fight back) and I am sure the human race will survive, once our numbers have been greatly reduced. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Drifter on 07/31/12 at 10:11:18 +1 Teach well said. Once again nothing matters but money. Old Indian saying, when the fish are all gone and the animals are gone and the trees are gone how long will they survive eating money! Great analogy....earth as a ziplock bag...even morons should be able to understand that! |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Serowbot on 07/31/12 at 10:46:35 The Right tends to argue that we are not the cause,.. so why do anything... The point is,.. whether we are all, or part, or none, of the cause... we need to do something... We need to become more efficient,... less consumptive,.. and realistically prepare... Reduce development on the coasts... use more renewable resources... develop better emergency response systems... Culturally,.. become less consumptive ... Plan for our children's children's children... I can't believe Smart Cars only average 36mpg... they should get 60mpg... my 17 year old Metro gets 40+mpg, and seats 4 comfortably... |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by srinath on 07/31/12 at 10:54:21 So, OK humans cause global warming. But can someone tell me advantages of that - Yes advantages, and I am not talking frivolous crap like the white house is only 8ft above sea level and will go under long before my house does etc etc ... Older - 40 and up kids should try to remember back to their school days. Young-un's well you on your own I think. OK fine its a serious problem when it gets warmer. Yes, I will give you that, but there is an advantage as well. Or a problem has been solved. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by WebsterMark on 07/31/12 at 13:26:26 Splash: What do you define as science, is what we have been doing to estimate climate change, sea level rise, and habitat shift not science? Are you a trained scientist and therefore qualified to interpret the results of modern research? Do you know the intricate workings of the planet's ecosystem better than an ecologist? Splash; is what we have been doing to estimate climate change. No, it’s what others have been doing and telling you what it means. When logical inconsistencies arise, you blindly write nonsense like you’ve done here. No I’m not a trained scientist and no I don’t know the intricate workings of the planet’s ecosystem better than an ecologist. However, I do know that trained scientist can be wrong and I know absolutely no one knows the workings of the planets econsystem. As for the population comments lets look back to this: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1338441755/0 Well webster I did the math and you can check me out if you want. here it is: Texas is 687,567,360 1/4 acre lots (268,581 sq miles or 171,891,840 acres) there are 1,750,000,000 family units in the world (assuming family of 4 and world population of 7 billion) that leaves over 1 billion families without a place to live in Texas. Even if we did 1/8 acre lot sizes there would still be millions of families without a spot in Texas. I did check your math and replied below which I posted but I guess you didn’t read it. I said 3000 sq ft, you did your math for some reason using ¼ acre which was the difference. 268,581 square miles in Texas 27,878,400 square feet in each square mile 7,487,608,550,400 total square feet in Texas 7,000,000,000 world's population 1,750,000,000 number of family groups of 4 in world 5,250,000,000,000 number of square feet required if each group had 2000 sq ft house plus 1000 sq ft yard An acre has 43640 square feet so a ¼ has over 10,000 sq ft. That’s the difference. If you want to give everyone a quarter of an acre, throw in Oklahoma and that will probably be enough. Point is overpopulation is NOT the problem. I believe all species no matter how big or little are critical, they all were designed to play important roles and fill important niches in their respective ecosystems. Given that the vast majority of all species that have ever lived are extinct, that is a ridiculous comment. But oil and gas are in short supply when compared to the demand That’s just simply not true. There are plenty of oil supplies not being pursued which creates an artificial shortfall. For example; if we had a demand for 100,000 redwood trees per year and that represented 90% of the world’s total supply of redwood trees, in one year we would have a shortage because redwoods take a hundred years to grow and we can easily count the total supply. That situation does not exist with oil as we have sites with known oil not being drilled or not being operated at peak capacity. That’s not a real shortage, it’s an artificial one. Also water is in short supply in some areas. Water is in abundance in other areas. There is no water shortage, there are regional shortages because of usage, but that’s not a global water shortage. thats not natural is it? Mark? You’re typing your reply on a ‘unnatural computer using unnatural electricity’. What is natural? Point of no return does not necessarily mean uninhabitable, what it means is we will not be able to undo the damage done in our lifetime. This will be the loss of prime agricultural land, water sources, and clean air. Populations will drop at this point and the earth will go into a natural population/resource (similar to a predator/prey model) cycle. I heard this 10 years ago. I heard this 20 years ago. I heard this 30 years ago. Every generation has their chicken little the world is going to end predictions. I like my odds. I am not going anywhere near the common sense comments, as it is clear webster has none. And no, you won’t go there because like Star and a few others, you can’t go there because it forces you to confront reality which you are trying to avoid so you resort to a smart ass comment. All the retorts you just listed above are just plain wrong and amount to nothing but political drivel. You don't really have a BS is Zoology do you? |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by WebsterMark on 07/31/12 at 13:29:27 Unchecked population growth-with 7 billion people, millions of people are starving because there is not enough food to eat. Basic fact: if all the food were distributed evenly among the entire population, we couldn't produce enough to feed us all for very long. okay, this is important for eveyone to understand. This is utter BS. We have an abundance of food. People are starving due to political instability not shortage of food. The 'civilized world' throws away enough food to feed the world easily. Honestly Teacher, do you really think the world simply can't produce enough food and that's why people starve??? Who told you that? |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by WebsterMark on 07/31/12 at 13:40:43 The Right tends to argue that we are not the cause,.. so why do anything... The point is,.. whether we are all, or part, or none, of the cause... we need to do something... We need to become more efficient,... less consumptive,.. and realistically prepare... Reduce development on the coasts... use more renewable resources... develop better emergency response systems... Culturally,.. become less consumptive ... Plan for our children's children's children... I can't believe Smart Cars only average 36mpg... they should get 60mpg... my 17 year old Metro gets 40+mpg, and seats 4 comfortably... Sew; I told you my view. Yea, I think the gases we produce likely have a tiny impact on warming. However, 25,000 years ago most of Canada was covered in ice so clearly there has been warming of the earth’s temperature. I've seen enough counter arguments that I don't think we are impacting this warming to the degree the climate zealots think we are. No one disputes the need to keep the environment clean and to move towards cleaner fuels. But when extremist make up stuff, many of us get suspicious about their real motives. Look at the ignorance behind the last replies from Splash and Teacher. People like that ‘choose’ their side with this because their team captain told them what to believe and say. Conservative’s tend to think things through more and don’t blindly follow. When McCain came out and said he believed we needed to address Global Warming, he lost support from conservatives. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by LostArtist on 07/31/12 at 13:54:56 someone is believing all the BS huh? |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by arteacher on 07/31/12 at 17:05:11 615354454253447B57445D360 wrote:
We have an abundance because others are starving, and I never said it wasn't political, but the fact remains, we can't support all 7,000,000,000 people to a satisfactory level of nourishment (say 2000 calories per day) for long.( About 1,000,000,000 people are living below the proper nourishment level) That would be 14,000,000,000,000 calories of food production per day. For reference that is 57,851,200,000 ears of corn, or 113,821,000,000 cups of rice per day. ( I hesitate to mention wheat ;D) |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by WebsterMark on 07/31/12 at 19:00:18 teacher; i get the feeling you are genuine. do a little research and answer you question. can we feed the world today? |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by splash07 on 07/31/12 at 20:43:04 1D2F28393E2F38072B38214A0 wrote:
Who told you otherwise mark? Dont rely on us blind sheep to find the right answers, you must enlighten us for we are too ignant to find the path. Where are your numbers? Dont forget to cite your references like a good pretend scientist. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/31/12 at 20:56:08 POlitics & distribution are standing between the starving & food,, |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by WebsterMark on 07/31/12 at 21:20:43 Who told you otherwise mark? Dont rely on us blind sheep to find the right answers, you must enlighten us for we are too ignant to find the path. Where are your numbers? Dont forget to cite your references like a good pretend scientist. I work in the food production industry. I was at a plant today that produces literally millions of pounds per month. Being an evil for profit corporation, they are extremely efficient. Wasted food is money down the drain. As efficient as they are, hundreds of thousands of pounds a year are lost due to production errors, inefficiencies and shelf life. Two weeks ago, I was at the largest beef production plant in the US. They can slaughter over 5000 cattle per day. Again, an evil for profit corporation, but even they lose hundreds of thousands of pounds per year and they do everything they can not too. A month or so ago I was at a Texas poultry hatchery. Every single week, 52 week out of the year, they hatch 300,000 chicks. Every single week. These are just three plants out of thousands around just the United States. Now, that’s only part one. Part two: carry that forward to the average household. How much food is wasted, throw away or goes bad? 2 pounds a week for every person is a low estimate, probably close to 4. Don’t think so? Care to think about how much food gets lost over a 3 day summer weekend in the US? In France? In England? In Brazil? Do the math yourself. There are 7 billion people in the world. A person can survive on 3000 calories a day easily. Figure it out. Consider this very simple fact. No one dies in the United States from starvation. No one. It never happens. Anyone literally starving to death just needs to knock on a door or go to a church and they’ll get fed. No one dies of starvation in the US. We’re in the middle of the longest drought in 12 years and still no one will starve. Going hungry and starving are two vastly differnt things. Go to Africa however, and it’s different. People starve to death. Why? There’s your answer. You answer why no one starves to death in the US, but they do in Africa and you’ll have your answer. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Starlifter on 07/31/12 at 22:15:18 "Dont forget to cite your references like a good pretend scientist." Splash I found his references and data. It's from a site called "Over population is a myth.com". (site says everyone in the world can fit into Texas.) ...How many people can "fit" into Texas is so silly it's absurd to even consider it.... The term “overpopulation” doesn’t refer to how many people can “fit” somewhere. You could stack those seven billion people like cordwood and they’d fit in a much smaller space than Texas. Heck, you could even chop them into pieces so they’d fit together in an even smaller space...say Dallas. Over population refers to the number of organisms in relation to their habitat’s ability to support them. In the case of humanity, it means the number of people on earth in relation to how much fresh water there is, how much food we can grow, the ability of the environment to process our wastes, and so on. It’s also a fact that the entire population of the Earth isn’t sharing the planet equally or fairly. We’re divided into continents and nations, many of which either can’t or won’t join together to solve the problem. Lots of those places have already surpassed their environment’s capacity to support their populations. It’s easy to sit here in our air conditioned castles in the U.S.and say that those other countries have only themselves to blame. Whether that's true is now irrelevant to their starvation and disease. Their math problem has come and gone. It’ll happen to us all sooner or later. Sooner, if we pretend the idea of overpopulation doesn’t exist. BTW Webster, I couldn't help but to notice your OPIAM site sell T-shirts that spell out such things as "Survival of the Richest" and "Help the Poor, Don't Kill Them" and "Maybe Greed is the Problem". These messages reflect liberal social issues that I hope you will take to heart.... |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Serowbot on 07/31/12 at 22:29:05 447671606776615E726178130 wrote:
Because you're an idiot?... Webster,.. we live in a land of plenty... We eat too much... We have learned to be wasteful... It is by accident of birth that we are here, where food is plentiful... It is an accident of climate... Climate Change,.. is just that... It may end up that Africa becomes a land of plenty,.. and we end up starving... it may end up that there is no place of plenty anymore... Nobody Knows... ..but a shift is coming... That we know... If you, or I, were born elsewhere, we might likely have distended belly's from hunger... or more likely be dead... We aren't superior or special,.. just really frikkin' lucky... We were born where things are plentiful... That can change... That is climate change... A few degrees might not destroy humanity... but it will have effect... It might turn this world on it's head... We are the bread basket of the world... that might change very easily... It surely will eventually,... but this the crisis in our headlights now... PS... homeless people usually freeze to death, or die of heatstroke, before they starve... or overdose, or die from medical complications without healthcare, or vitamin deficiencies, or flu... so, they seldom starve... Starvation seldom causes death,.. it just weakens until a minor illness or virus causes death... |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Starlifter on 07/31/12 at 22:55:04 "Consider this very simple fact. No one dies in the United States from starvation. No one. It never happens." Webster Maybe, maybe not....but, you can dam* well bet there are people in this country who must choose between buying food or medicine every month...cat food anyone? **************************************************************** U.S. Hunger & Poverty Statistics Hunger & Poverty Statistics Although related, food insecurity and poverty are not the same. Unemployment rather than poverty is a stronger predictor of food insecurity. Povertyi In 2010, 46.2 million people (15.1 percent) were in poverty. In 2010, 9.2 million (11.7 percent) families were in poverty. In 2010, 26.3 million (13.7 percent) of people ages 18-64 were in poverty. In 2010, 16.4 million (22.0 percent) children under the age of 18 were in poverty. In 2010, 3.5 million (9.0 percent) seniors 65 and older were in poverty. The overall Poverty Rate according to the Supplemental Poverty Measure is 16.0%, as compared with the official poverty rate of 15.1%.ii Under the Supplemental Poverty Measure, there are 49.1 million people living in poverty, 2.5 million more than are represented by the official poverty measure (46.2 million).iii Food Insecurity and Very Low Food Security iv In 2010, 48.8 million Americans lived in food insecure households, 32.6 million adults and 16.2 million children. In 2010, 14.5 percent of households (17.2 million households) were food insecure. In 2010, 5.4 percent of households (6.4 million households) experienced very low food security. In 2010, households with children reported food insecurity at a significantly higher rate than those without children, 20.2 percent compared to 11.7 percent. In 2010, households that had higher rates of food insecurity than the national average included households with children (20.2 percent), especially households with children headed by single women (35.1 percent) or single men (25.4 percent), Black non-Hispanic households (25.1 percent) and Hispanic households (26.2 percent). In 2009, 8.0 percent of seniors living alone (925,000 households) were food insecure. Food insecurity exists in every county in America, ranging from a low of 5 percent in Steele County, ND to a high of 38 percent in Wilcox County, AL.v Nine states exhibited statistically significant higher household food insecurity rates than the U.S. national average 2008-2010: iv United States 14.6% Mississippi 19.4% Texas 18.8% Arkansas 18.6% Alabama 17.3% Georgia 16.9% Ohio 16.4% Florida 16.1% California 15.9% North Carolina 15.7% Use of Emergency Food Assistance and Federal Food Assistance Programs vi In 2010, 4.8 percent of all U.S. households (5.6 million households) accessed emergency food from a food pantry one or more times.2 In 2010, 59.2 percent of food-insecure households participated in at least one of the three major Federal food assistance programs –Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (formerly Food Stamp Program), The National School Lunch Program, and the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children. Feeding America provides emergency food assistance to an estimated 37 million low-income people annually, a 46 percent increase from 25 million since Hunger in America 2010. Among members of Feeding America, 74 percent of pantries, 65 percent of kitchens, and 54 percent of shelters reported that there had been an increase since 2006 in the number of clients who come to their emergency food program sites. World Hunger: A Vicious Cycle Synopsis Overview: Hunger is the feeling one experience with a lack of food, the “persistent gnawing condition resulting from a lack of adequate food intake, which prevents one form working of thinking correctly.” Starvation is the most severe case of the condition of hunger. Starvation and hunger, if not combated, lead certainly to malnutrition. Malnutrition is the condition resulting from a lack of life sustaining vitamins, minerals, proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. Up to one billion people worldwide consume less than the minimum critical daily caloric intake needed to avoid hunger. Hunger is most severe in the poorest parts of the world. Africa, India, Pakistan and Indonesia have the largest percentage of hungry people of all the countries in the world. In Africa in particular, hunger and disease are a vicious cycle. Hunger, along with many other effects causes the immune system to weaken, making the body more susceptible to other diseases. These diseases, including AIDS, kill the older generation of people, the ‘bread winners’ and those who work in the fields to grow the food. When those people die, only the younger generations of children are left to fend for themselves and because they lack the care of a parent or adult, they are unable to sustain themselves with sufficient food intake. Also, because the infant mortality rate in third world countries is so high, families have large numbers of children to increase the chance that some will survive. By doing this, however, there are more mouths to feed and subsequently more hungry people in the world. Furthermore, malnutrition slows the intellectual development of children and young adults, and therefore, the problems of hunger and disease in third world countries cannot be solved internally but need outside influence and aid. The UN and other world hunger organizations offer significant economic and medical aid to these countries to help stamp out hunger. Hunger is not a problem because the world food production is not enough to feed all of the people in the world; it is a problem because the food is not distributed equally among all of the countries and people in the world. Third world countries that have a great percentage of the population starving do not have the resources to obtain or grow food. These countries also have a lower standard of living than second of first world countries, as well as a non-existent economic infrastructure, or it one does exist, it is unstable. These factors also have an impact on a country’s technological capabilities. See hunger map for world starvation figures and estimates. If all the food in the world were divided equally among all the people in the world, each person would get three times the minimum amount needed to survive. If there was a feasible way to accomplish this enormous task, the solution to world hunger would be found. Until then, charities and donations must aid the organizational fight against world hunger. Statistics: Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger. Every year 15 million children die of hunger. One in twelve people worldwide is malnourished, including 160 million children under the age of five. Nearly one in four people, 1.3 billion total, live on less than US$1 per day. One out of every eight children under twelve in the US goes to bed hungry every night. Half of all children under age five in South Asia and one third of those in sub-Saharan Africa are malnourished. To satisfy the world’s sanitation and food requirements would only cost US$13 billion – what the people of the United States and the European Union spend of perfume each year. Some 800 million people in the world suffer form hunger and malnutrition, about 1000 times as many as those who actually die form it each year. The Indian subcontinent has nearly half the world’s hungry people. Africa and the rest of Asia together have approximately 40%5 and the remaining hungry people are found in Latin America and other parts of the world. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by WebsterMark on 08/01/12 at 04:38:46 ...How many people can "fit" into Texas is so silly it's absurd to even consider it.... The term “overpopulation” doesn’t refer to how many people can “fit” somewhere. You could stack those seven billion people like cordwood and they’d fit in a much smaller space than Texas. Heck, you could even chop them into pieces so they’d fit together in an even smaller space...say Dallas. Dear Idiot Star; (and yea I know it’s bad to call someone names but you make it so easy Star because in fact you are an idiot) the Texas population exercise is a thought experiment meant to convey concepts and truths. It’s not literal. It’s like Einstein using trains in space traveling at high velocities to demonstrate his relativity ideas. I’m assuming this is beyond you. Everything I said is valid and correct as far as I know. Do the math yourself. If I’m wrong, point it out. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by WebsterMark on 08/01/12 at 04:52:20 Webster,.. we live in a land of plenty... We eat too much... We have learned to be wasteful... It is by accident of birth that we are here, where food is plentiful... Clarification needed: it is an accident of birth we are here, but it is not an accident food is plentiful here. In fact it takes a lot of hard work and diligence to make that happen. It may end up that Africa becomes a land of plenty,.. and we end up starving... it may end up that there is no place of plenty anymore... I agree with that and would say if that happens, it will be due to political instability, not lack of food supply. Nobody Knows... ..but a shift is coming... That we know... Not sure I agree, I would say there’s always a possibility of natural disaster waiting around the corner or man-made disaster. However, it’s far more likely the man-made disaster is global war or global political instability than global warming. If you, or I, were born elsewhere, we might likely have distended belly's from hunger... or more likely be dead... We aren't superior or special,.. just really frikkin' lucky... But for the Grace of God, go I. Yes, we are lucky and we owe a debt to others who went before us. We were born where things are plentiful... But that's not why we are a wealthy nation. The United States doesn’t have any more natural resources than Africa or South America. We had a political system established that allowed us to thrive. Africa is trapped in a mess of self-destructive cultures. Hey, did our future President just say something about how a nation’s culture effects a nation’s economic well being… PS... homeless people usually freeze to death, or die of heatstroke, before they starve... or overdose, or die from medical complications without healthcare, or vitamin deficiencies, or flu... so, they seldom starve... Starvation seldom causes death,.. it just weakens until a minor illness or virus causes death... I’m very well aware of that, but that wasn’t the question at hand. The point is; to solve a problem the problem has to be correctly identified. Shortage of worldwide food supply is not the problem for the hungry, political instability is. Giving food all day to starving people in Africa is the right thing to do, but solving the politics of those nations is just as much the moral thing to do. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by WebsterMark on 08/01/12 at 04:54:20 Star; OPIAM site i have no idea what this is a reference to. the rest of your long cut and paste post is not news tome and not what I was talking about. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by splash07 on 08/01/12 at 07:11:46 665453424554437C50435A310 wrote:
Just because you find something easy does not mean you should do it. Poor form Mark. Pooping in your pants is easy but I bet you don't do that. You are right, you can fit everyone in the world into Texas, and I realize its an exercise in concept, however it's a poor one. Every population ecologist in the world knows that available space does not equal larger carrying capacity. Is every bit of Texas suitable for habitation? Is every bit of open space in the world suitable for habitation, dont we need space to grow food for all these people, what about water is there water everywhere, can we feasibly send resources to these places to support the growing population. Here are some numbers, I used the basic rule of 70 to calculate doubling times for world population. The current world population growth rate is around 1.2% with a current population of 7 Billion it would only take 58 years for this population to reach 14 Billion. That is to say if the rate stays the same throughout those 58 years. It wont, it is already showing a steady trend downward so lets say it drops to 1% over this time, this seems feasible since the rate has dropped drastically since the early 60s but appears to now be leveling off. At 1% growth rate it would take the current population only 70 years to reach 14 Billion. it took us 40 years to go from 3.5 Billion in 1970 to 7 Billion currently. in 70 years everyone will get half the water, half the food, and half the land that was once available. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by srinath on 08/04/12 at 23:53:37 3D3C27202F3A264E0 wrote:
Answering my own question - Do you remember we were told the earth's axis of rotation would shift due to the weight of the ice at the poles. Not gonna happen with global warming. Also global warming will shift the tropical belt further north. As in more of the US will fall under the tropical area, and more easier in effect to grow more food, not just corn and soybeans. Everything grows better where it is warm and wet. Land of plenty will become land of super plenty. BTW every school kid in the US @ lunch I will bet spills/throws away enough food to feed a family of 4 in a undernourished country. Now are you going to scrape it up and transport it a few 1000 miles. Not just politics, there is a significant logistics issue there as well. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by WebsterMark on 08/05/12 at 05:25:37 Just because you find something easy does not mean you should do it. Poor form Mark. Pooping in your pants is easy but I bet you don't do that. Sorry, but when it comes to Star; all bets are off. You are right, you can fit everyone in the world into Texas, and I realize its an exercise in concept, however it's a poor one. Every population ecologist in the world knows that available space does not equal larger carrying capacity. Is every bit of Texas suitable for habitation? Is every bit of open space in the world suitable for habitation, dont we need space to grow food for all these people, what about water is there water everywhere, can we feasibly send resources to these places to support the growing population. It’s an excellent conceptual exercise for anyone open minded. Of course it’s understood not every square inch is inhabitable, but consider Las Vegas Nevada. If a couple million people can live in that area, where can’t you live? dont we need space to grow food for all these people Have you ever driven down I-5 in California? It’s probably more eye opening than the coastal highway. Couple hundred miles of driving thru what really is the world’s breadbasket. You telling me the continent of Africa is geologically incapable of such a feat? Of course it is. Here are some numbers, I used the basic rule of 70 to calculate doubling times for world population. The current world population growth rate is around 1.2% with a current population of 7 Billion it would only take 58 years for this population to reach 14 Billion. That is to say if the rate stays the same throughout those 58 years. It wont, it is already showing a steady trend downward so lets say it drops to 1% over this time, this seems feasible since the rate has dropped drastically since the early 60s but appears to now be leveling off. At 1% growth rate it would take the current population only 70 years to reach 14 Billion. it took us 40 years to go from 3.5 Billion in 1970 to 7 Billion currently. in 70 years everyone will get half the water, half the food, and half the land that was once available. I have no idea how many people this world could sustain. Given all the empty space in the world, excess food supply in civilized nations, the potential for farming improvements in 3rd world nations, I’d guess we could have 3- 4 times the people; up to 28 billion, but I’m just guessing. Heck, Australia has less than 25 million. It’s about the same size as the lower 48 but with 1/12 the population. The entire South American continent has a population only 25% larger than the US. There’s a lot of room in the world… |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Drifter on 08/05/12 at 05:41:39 I know the answer sell more corn make more ethanol add some nice flavor give it to all the folks you dont like or feel are inferior based on color of skin or location etc and that will end the population problem. If we continue making ethanol from corn lots will starve other than those who have the correct skin color or location so it seems ethanol is the answer either way. :( |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Gyrobob on 08/05/12 at 05:52:43 This debate is endless. If you summarize what each side has to say, you come away with no real conclusions other than the issue is still debatable. For me, the telling thing is long-term data. Over the past many millions of years, the earth's temp has gone up and down a little occasionally, staying relatively constant within a range of a few degrees. During the fraction of earth's history that humans have existed in significant numbers, nothing has changed with the typical cycling of the temp going up and down a little occasionally. The global warming debate itself is likely to have the largest effect on average global temp simply because of all the hot air involved. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by LostArtist on 08/05/12 at 06:57:36 605E5548454845270 wrote:
+1 wow, I agree with Gyro on something . . . 2012??? |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by srinath on 08/06/12 at 08:16:25 The whole worlds population fitting into texas - someone brought that up. True, and if we can arrange people, and everything else we need to live on as lego blocks we easily can live on 1/10th of what we use currently. Less than 1/10th easy. Plus make most weather phenomenon and tectonics irrelevant. We have people living on huge oil reserves. - Los angeles. We have people living on huge geological problems. - CA. We have people living in fertile bread baskets - CA, Hawaii, and many more. I'd find a few midwestern or northern states with few geological relevance - AKA a mid/northwestern plain that cant grow much of anything and stack people in nice shoe box sized apartments. They are cheaper to heat. The cooling will be harder, but since these will be tall buildings, the upper floors can just use windows for the most part. I have more ideas like these, and as soon as we can implement stuff like this we can live on less resources. I have some acquaintances who retired when they were in their late 40's. My wife was ooh ing and aawing over that, how they now have the freedom to do what they want and they now live on the beach in a boat. What she didn't ask them was - how did they manage that ? I told her. The summary was they lived in a shoe box apt in queens under rent control lived there through muggings and stabbings. Worked in 2 jobs for him through most of his 30yr career, atleast 1 was a decent one, she worked 2/1 job through most of her career, didn't own a car ever, saved like a maniac, got to ride the stock market up, and back down, had to delay the retirement 5-6 years, and the part that made my wife spit - and I said this while playing with my son's hair - decided to not have any kids. They wanted to retire by 40, so they decided to do nothing that makes live worth living. They accomplished that by 47-48 if I'm correct. Then they moved to somewhere very cheap to live and they are trying to live off their savings. Good for them, but the sacrifice isn't for everyone. If we can give up our 1/4 acre lots and 2500 sqft house and our hummers, and people can be canned like sardines it is a lot cheaper to heat and obviously we will leave the nice fertile lands of california to crops and oil extraction. Cool. Srinath. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Midnightrider on 08/08/12 at 14:55:20 I've said this before and I'll say it one more time. Anyone that rides a motorcycle and doesnt belive in global warming is a friggin idiot. I ride through the country but once I get back into the city the temp jumps 5 to 8 degrees. I dont know anything about CO2 or the chemistry of the atmosphere but the asphalt, factories, traffic and lack of trees and vegetation heat up the atmosphere. I'm not a scientist but it doesnt take one to know that we are heating up the planet. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/08/12 at 15:33:18 I never said it wasnt getting warmer. Whats causing it is up for debate, IIRC, we had a time in the past when there was ice in lots of places & it went away. That was called the Ice Age,, no SUV melted that. During Medieval Times it was warmer than now.. no SUV did that. Back in the 70's, the scientists were warning of a mini ice age coming. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Midnightrider on 08/09/12 at 00:05:27 People, factories, cars, logging, power plants, asphalt etc. are contributing to it getting warmer, thats not even debateable. I'm setting here with a $20,000 boat and fishing gear and they've totally screwed the water up so bad I cant safely eat a fish I catch and they're still polluting it. Thats what clean electric power has done for us, contaminated all the lakes with mercury and they're still doing it. Dont know how much damage we're doing to the atmosphere but we are damaging it. Ask anyone who lives in LA. You cant count on this generation to do anything except make it worse. Its hard for me to sit back and think about how a large percentage of the generation of peace and love have turned into evil greedy bastards who absolutely care nothing for their fellow man or the planet, but that's what has happened and nothings gonna change for now. Whoever finds a way to get rich the quickest will rule this country. There's over 3000 lobbyist in Washington spending millions a day so dont ever expect anything to change, if you do you'll just get your feelings hurt. Our gov., the tax system, and the EPA and a lot more all need overhauling but it aint gonna happen in our generation. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/09/12 at 00:32:30 Agenda 21 will fix it,, since it includes eliminating billions of us. & how many here are able to look at society & see the damage it does to the climate & environment, yet, can not manage to make the connection between vaccinations & autism? Yes, Im sure we have an impact on the world, the climate even, but to what extent? What % of temperature change was gonna happen anyway? What impact has Haarp had? What about the chemtrails? Who Benefits here? |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/09/12 at 09:55:54 http://www.appinsys.com/globalwarming/gw_part6_solarevidence.htm There are good reasons to believe its not as much my Jeeps fault as the people who make bazzillions off of carbon tax credits would want us to think. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by splash07 on 08/09/12 at 12:47:00 people always think that cars are the only thing that get blamed but lets look at some other areas. Coal fired power plants, airplanes, ocean going ships, petroleum generators, there are a lot of sources of CO2 other than JOGs jeep. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/09/12 at 17:29:04 No one says otherwise, but Im not listing every possible source of CO@, which, BTW, is food for plants & has been higher than it is now, loong ago, according to studies done of ice layers buried very deep. Read the article, follow the links,. & realize, Al Gore & Ken lay cooked this up decades ago.,Google Al Gore Ken Lay Carbon credits. |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by splash07 on 08/10/12 at 06:09:11 more CO2 now and less plants to use it.......huh |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by LostArtist on 08/10/12 at 13:37:49 don't worry, if we just don't change anything about our behavior, everything will be alright, somehow. . . |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by Serowbot on 08/10/12 at 15:17:56 Plant a frikkin' tree in yer' yard... it can't hurt... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change.. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/10/12 at 22:16:57 Ohhh, now I feel Baaad,, we had about 10 acres cleared, just over a Million Pounds of trees,,,cut down & hauled away,, |
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