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Message started by heroicseven on 07/20/12 at 18:42:26

Title: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by heroicseven on 07/20/12 at 18:42:26

If I take my grinder and smooth out the welds will it affect the strength of the frame overall? Or should I just leave it be?

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/20/12 at 20:01:24

Theres a guy who just posted pics of such a job. He did some grinding & some bondo. I suspect just grinding would be a mistake, knock off the Big Ugly & fill in,,

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by teabowl13 on 07/21/12 at 12:18:18

Here's the thread I think Justin is talking about.
This guy went pretty extreme; he even cut off some of the structural bits and re-did them. It looks great to me; I might be a little worried about the strength of some of his joints, but it's really hard to judge that sort of thing just from photos. Over-all, the work looks super professional, so I'm sure it's solid.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1342255366

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by Dave on 07/22/12 at 04:17:08

The weld provides strength in two ways. One is the penetration where it melts down into the metal and the two pieces flow together for some depth. On this metal this can actually go clear through to the other side. The other is the "fillet" - the portion of the weld that is "proud" of the surface.....and it does provide strength. On thick metal the depth of penetration usually is no where near completely through, and the fillet is a considerable amount of the strength.

I would not grind the entire weld away - but there is nothing wrong with grinding a little bit to get them a bit smoother.

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by Routy on 07/22/12 at 04:55:52

These frame welds have a bad case of the uglies,.....even tho most seem to be penatrated well. They could be improved 75% just by knocking off the high spots....w/o weakening them one bit.

I have often wondered what happened w/ quality control when it come to welding these frames,......and the amazing part, their ALL the same !

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by LANCER on 07/22/12 at 05:05:41

4E415B405C5A494B434D5A280 wrote:

Maybe due to "job security" for the guy doing the welding at whatever Suzuki plant makes the frames. I wonder if the same dude who welded the first frames back in the 80's is still working the same job today ... his welds are on every frame that comes off the mfg. line.
Just a thought ...

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/22/12 at 05:27:55

You guys can pick on the welding,, I cant..My particular approach to welding usually requires a few seconds of welding, followed by a minute or so of grinding, then more welding & on & on, till I get whatever Im working on stuck together,,

But with a Mig? Ohh, Im suddenly decent! Of course the rig could be part of it I guess. I have a $150.00 HF stick welder,,& I was using a MIG in a well equipped Body Shop, a pretty big Miller unit.

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by Routy on 07/22/12 at 06:29:58

Being a welder by trade, I know that it is just as easy to make a nice looking weld as an ugly weld... w/ most any machine,...not that we don't all have an "oops" once in a while, whether it be human or machine error.
I too would maybe think that the same guy welded all the frames, except that after welding that many, seems like he would accidently get better if not on purpose ! And then add the quality control issue on top of it, I just don't get it, especially from a major MC company. One thing for sure, quality control sure wasn't high on their priority list,......at least in the welding shop.

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by sparkie on 07/22/12 at 10:47:28

Hi
Its my blue savage that i ground down the welds on and yes i only smoothed them and then put a bit of filler over them.
If there was some that looked a bit crap then i re welded them with a tig.
The main bits i cut off was under the seat area where they looked really agricultural but then made new strengthening braces so there was no loss in strength more probably.I think the original strengthening ones were welded in the middle between the two tubes but i cut them off and re-welded them on the outside and ground flat which looks better.So long as you don't take too much off cant see there being a problem.
Cheers Sparkie

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by Paraquat on 07/22/12 at 19:30:06

707F657E626477757D7364160 wrote:

I too would maybe think that the same guy welded all the frames, except that after welding that many, seems like he would accidently get better if not on purpose !

I almost spit my tea on myself reading this.

--Steve

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by Cavi Mike on 07/22/12 at 21:09:42

A fillet weld is as strong as a weld needs to be (a proper fillet weld is slightly concave). If it bulges up and becomes convex, that is extra material. It doesn't make the weld any stronger and it can be safely ground off. Now that's not to say the weld wasn't too small and weak to begin with but that bulging material will do nothing for its strength. It's how wide the weld is that matters.

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by rfw2003 on 07/22/12 at 21:23:02

6B495E416541434D280 wrote:

+1
totally agree here.

Over welding can actually weaken the area depending on the type of metal that is being welded.

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by heroicseven on 07/22/12 at 23:04:46

I'm thinking about buying my own welder to try and persue my fabrication fantasies.. Any suggestions on a good welding machine to start with?

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by rfw2003 on 07/22/12 at 23:13:00

I would recommend a MIG welder. Not a wire fed with flux core but a real MIG with the Gas. Myself I have a Hobart Handler 180 and it has served me well for several years. Once you really learn how to weld well with MIG and also any Oxy/Actyl setup then you can try your luck with a TIG unit later on down the road if you want to get into welding aluminum.

R.F.

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by Cavi Mike on 07/23/12 at 00:02:13

Hobarts are really nice, they're owned by the same company that makes Millers. Recently Miller has put out some welders that I'm almost certain are Hobart welders underneath. If you look at the Miller Diversion 165 it's almost indistinguishable from a Hobart EZ-tig 165 to a color-blind person.

Title: Re: cleaning up frame welds..
Post by WD on 07/23/12 at 04:43:10

I do all of my welding with either an old Campbell Hausfeld flux core or a newer Hobart flux core. Both of which make a mess unless you have really clean material and fresh wire.

If you want to learn how to weld without destroying your bike in the process, take a continuing education class. Doesn't have any real world practicality since the course is so short (can't use it to get a job) but you will learn the basics from someone who knows what he is doing.

If you really want a machine for home use, get a dual voltage that can run either flux core or standard solid wire with gas. Preferably one that can handle full grown spools (10#), changing out 1-3# mini spools gets old quick. And use it a lot, the wire corrodes from humidity and flux core types will absorb enough moisture to be completely useless.

I do a lot of bodywork with my flux core, some implement repairs. Anything that is expensive to replace (antique cast iron for example) gets sent to a professional. Bike frames and such go to a local FAA or USCG certified shop. Worth the extra coin to have structural welding done with silicon bronze rod.