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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> How hot is too hot? (oil war again) /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1342554853 Message started by Coaxial on 07/17/12 at 12:54:13 |
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Title: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Coaxial on 07/17/12 at 12:54:13 City rush hour + 07 Suzuki S40 + 97F( feels like 113F 42% Humidity). Stop and go for about 20 minutes then full out riding. Is there a hot point where I shouldnt ride. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by Oldfeller on 07/17/12 at 13:02:45 No, to be bullet-proof for heat put some Rotella T-6 in your crankcase and jest go on and ride the biatch. The oil and your bike will be good for any temp your Savage can get up to without degrading the oil (or giving your bike heat indigestion). When it is very hot outside, check your oil more frequently as you will consume more oil in the hot summer months. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by SaVaGeEaRL on 07/17/12 at 13:06:24 rotella t6...hmmm what weight do you prefer oldfeller. and is it for everything or just bikes. i have always used mobile 1 vtwin 20w 50 The temperature proof Rotella T-6 as sold in the USA (from your local WalMart, actually) only comes in 5w-40 weight full synthetic. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by bill67 on 07/17/12 at 13:18:42 Rotella is a diesel oil you are a lot better off using a motorcycle oil. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by verslagen1 on 07/17/12 at 13:29:30 T6 only comes 1 way 5w40 it has a high temperture rating and flows better to pull heat outta the head. When the bike gets really hot... it's starts to clatter. Pull over and get a cool drink. [smiley=beer.gif] Don't mind bill, he drinks kool-aide... the blue stuff. :P |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by SaVaGeEaRL on 07/17/12 at 13:41:32 and the rotella dont mess with the clutch? interesting. ive never put rotella in anything but deisels for the past 26 years in the garages ive worked in. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by mojohand40 on 07/17/12 at 13:53:46 I rode to work nearly every day the week before last, and just two days last week. 98 deg and sweltering at times. Going in wasn't bad, a lot cooler in the morning. Traffic coming home though, roasts me. Lots of stop and go, some of the worst traffic in the nation (Washington DC area). I commute about 25 miles each way. Yeah, it's hot, but I keep telling myself: In five months, it'll be getting dark early and too cold to ride so enjoy it while you can... BUT.....I've been commuting on my liquid cooled Honda...I'm not quite ready to sit in traffic on the air cooled Savage yet...I'll wait for a nice friday with light traffic and a few degrees cooler.... I'm sure the bike can handle it, I commuted two seasons on a GZ250 years ago just fine...I'm just not sure If I want to handle it.. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by bill67 on 07/17/12 at 13:54:44 Within the last week or so theres a motorcycle engine that was using that oil,Its all screwed up now.good oil ::) ::) :o :o Its on here somewhere. Bill must now find this reference or face the Kangaroo Kourt fer telling newbies his fictional stuff again ..... |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by verslagen1 on 07/17/12 at 14:04:28 717A7F7F2524130 wrote:
If that were true... you'd have it bookmarked and quote it in every oil thread. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by 12Bravo on 07/17/12 at 14:06:27 INCOMING I had to get that out of the way. LOL! I haven't had any problems with using Rotella T6 in any of my motorcycles over the years. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by Firetox on 07/17/12 at 14:11:23 im in the same boat and area as mojo ... i drove my car to work today when i read "record highs" |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by SALB on 07/17/12 at 14:18:42 32393C3C6667500 wrote:
So, I'm confused, Bill. :-? Rotella says MA right on the side of the jug. MA is the motorcycle designation our bikes require, so how is it that Rotella isn't a motorcycle oil? ::) Hmmm. can u say "dual purpose". ;) |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by Drifter on 07/17/12 at 14:35:29 Mobile 1 20-50 for hot weather, look at your owners manual or the one on here. Go to cafe and read the oil thread. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by SALB on 07/17/12 at 15:08:56 182E353A28392E5C0 wrote:
My 2007 owners manual says 10-40 with a MA is the preferred weight. On the chart that lists weight by temperature, you can go as low as 10-30 and still be safe over 100 degrees. With the weak oiling system in the top end, I'd prefer not to start a cold engine with 20-50. 15-40 seems to be the best all round weight for most circumstances, and if it's below 15 degrees, your not catching me riding anyway! But hey, to each his own. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by l33tl4m3r on 07/17/12 at 15:56:38 0E1413161110060F630 wrote:
I'd like to say that in the experience I had, Rotella actually HELPED with some of my clutch issues. Clutch was slipping, most likely due to friction reducers in the crap oil the previous owner put in before selling me the bike. Flushed it out with Rotella and filled her up, rode ~100 miles and flushed again, no problems since. Granted this wasn't synthetic Rotella, which is what I read up there. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by kuri77 on 07/17/12 at 20:08:44 There are literally thousands of owners of KLR650's, such as myself, who are using the diesel Rotella 15W-40 and have been for years. All the bike's gurus who use it swear by it. Have never seen or heard of any bike having problems due to using this "diesel" rated oil. Any one who bad mouths the Rotella better have some facts to back it up or be known as one who blows hot air. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by verslagen1 on 07/17/12 at 21:25:44 485B4C4D525F595B500F3E0 wrote:
If that were true... you'd have it bookmarked and quote it in every oil thread.[/quote] Oh billblowist? have you forgotten? |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by Oldfeller on 07/17/12 at 22:00:39 I thought we were gonna change it to Billipsheeter if we caught him providing false info to the newbies again. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by Dj12midnit on 07/17/12 at 22:12:28 Wait the T6 says it is rated for motorcycles, Bill is it a lie? |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 04:17:44 Boys if you ever buy a diesel engined car be sure to use motorcycle oil in it. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by Cavi Mike on 07/18/12 at 04:35:33 I'll tell you what, I scoured the web for hours and couldn't find anything saying the Rotella had its MA certification but someone on here showed it to me. It's actually suitable for wet-clutch bikes. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 04:45:45 But it wasn't made for wet clutches or air-cooled engines,All motorcycle oil was designed for that from the ground up. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by Cavi Mike on 07/18/12 at 04:59:27 That is a pretty good point. I wonder why people started using Rotella in the first place... |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by kuri77 on 07/18/12 at 11:34:28 5E5550500A0B3C0 wrote:
As I said, not one case of engine failure ever attributed to Rotella 15W-40 in many years and thousands of users of KLR650s. Most people know that KLRs tear up the oil) and so the recommended (not by Kawasaki of course) change interval used by many, including me, is 1500 miles. Whatever additives or extra protection to extend oil life is available in synthetic and much higher priced oils is not gonna come into play by that mileage anyway. At current price of around $13 a gallon at Walmart this oil is available everywhere, can be changed twice as often (at 1500 miles instead of 2500-3000) for less money and will never be contaminated enough (at that mileage) to not protect your engine. Also, side benefit is never have to think of when to change if you remember multiples of 3. I did a few initial extra oil changes but am now at 1500, 3000, 4500, 6000, etc and change oil filter every other oil change on the 3, 6, 9000 etc numbers. Makes it easy to remember. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by verslagen1 on 07/18/12 at 11:51:51 597B6C735773717F1A0 wrote:
Right there on there website... http://www-static.shell.com/static/rotella/imgs/752x176/tp-y-products_752x176.gif http://www-static.shell.com/static/rotella/imgs/240x178/tp_viscosity_grade.jpg And it's on the back of every tripple t and T6 jug. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 11:53:31 I use Mobil One extended in my car its good for 10000 miles.I've been using Klotz oil for over 40 years no problems with any of my motorcycles or snowmobiles.Klotz is make for motorcycle that take a beating and they keep on ticking. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 11:57:06 Vers where is that picture of a motorcycle I don't see it. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 12:01:07 Vers you and Of know which motorcycle engine fell apart use Roddela oil,It's your guys oil so show the people here again. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by verslagen1 on 07/18/12 at 12:13:06 4A4144441E1F280 wrote:
It's your (false) claim, prove it or shut the hell up. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by verslagen1 on 07/18/12 at 12:14:48 6D66636339380F0 wrote:
You know what JASO MA is? Can you read? Visit wally world and pick up a jug. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 13:13:04 52415657484543414A15240 wrote:
It's your (false) claim, prove it or shut the hell up.[/quote] You and OF are crying in your beer. :'( |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by Oldfeller on 07/18/12 at 13:14:20 Ol' Billip knows what that the beer crying feels like, fer shure ;D Now now, let's not get testy with 'ol BungaloBill -- he's done been shot up so bad over so many oil wars I'm not sure if he's even all there any more. He mighta coulda have mebbe thought he might coulda have seen something, and to him that might be real enough to prompt his post. Cavi Mike however mighta coulda shoulda get painted a wee bit with the BS brush for the following statement: "I'll tell you what, I scoured the web for hours and couldn't find anything saying the Rotella had its MA certification but someone on here showed it to me. It's actually suitable for wet-clutch bikes." Typing just "Rotella MA certification" into Google yields about 489,000 results (in 0.83 seconds no less). Try it, you will be amazed at the net party that the MA announcement kicked off. We here on the list were in the mist of yet another strongly fought oil war when I suddenly surprised everybody when I suddenly caved in and agreed with the opposition that we should only be using approved motorcycle oils in our Savages here on the list. They were totally shocked that they had finally won one ..... (then the news hit) ;D me bad, me bad, me very very bad ;D ;D ;D "I wonder why people started using Rotella in the first place... " is a fair question. There used to be a commonly used motorcycle oil weight called 20w40 which predated 10w40 and was recommended by Yamaha and others for their bikes. When 20w40 fell into disuse, the various brands began recommending you sub in 15w40 HDEO's to fill that bill since they were readily available on the market. Folks quickly found Rotella T products simply did a better job than the old 20W40 oils had been doing because the base oil and additive packages that were in it kept engines clean and very very well lubricated. The racer boys lead the charge into HDEO adaptation (their engines lasted longer before having to be torn down) But it was the Gold Wing Boys that got the MA added to the Rotella label by their endless endless requests to Shell Oil company. Heavy Duty Engine Oil is what HDEO stands for, and originally it wasn't thought of as just for diesels (Billipshooter has been saying that again, hasn't he?) but HDEO was a general engine classification that was used in the most severe and stress filled applications. Yup, gas engines used to be common in tractors, vans, army vehicles etc. coming out of WWII -- the total dieselification of all these heavy vehicles didn't take place until diesel injector technology advanced to the high pressure rail system that is in use today. The old mechanical injector systems were complicated, fragile and too expensive to maintain. Nowadays the HDEO oils have to pass a battery of tests that is both EXHAUSTIVE and TOUGH, much much more so than the SAE tests required of motorcycle and car engines. It is better oil, so why wouldn't you use it? |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 13:19:53 Theres better oil and theres the best oil Klotz |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by Charon on 07/18/12 at 13:24:23 757E7B7B2120170 wrote:
And your proof would be? Post the links to it. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 13:30:04 Over 40 years of using it is enough proof for me.If you want to use cheap oil,Then do it. hee hee Bill, Klotz for 4 strokes has only been available for 10 years. Tell the nice people all about your 30 years of 2 stroke snowmobile experience .... |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Oldfeller on 07/18/12 at 13:31:42 BECAUSE ..... In head to head comparison tests done here on the list in the Savage engine Klotz didn't do as well as Rotella T-6, the head ran hotter, the cases ran hotter, the oil consumption was the same (or mebbe slightly worse) using Klotz. The man who did all these tests tested every brand of synthetic oil that could maybe help his bike with its oil drinking problems. He was on a mission, that one -- he paid for cases and cases of expensive Amisols and Klotzs and he ran the entire case out while keeping daily data on temps in 3 different places (that he published and we on the list analysed together). Bill decided about that time that FACTS and DATA were not his friend, and now he runs away shrieking when anyone plunks down a fact in front of him. Data gives him a rash that lasts for weeks .... He can't find any supporting data, he can't find his posts he refers to and he begs his opposition to go dig up his data for him because to him FACTS are like garlic to a vampire. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 13:36:11 What brand of oil was Vergy using before he did his so called test. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by verslagen1 on 07/18/12 at 14:27:02 212A2F2F7574430 wrote:
Klotz, it burned up my counter balencer bearings. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Charon on 07/18/12 at 14:31:43 Saying something like "Over 40 years of using it is enough proof for me." isn't much proof. I can rephase it into "Over 40 years of NOT using it is enough proof for me." My statement is completely truthful, and I can use it to imply that I have neatly avoided any problems Klotz might have caused. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 14:43:50 Over 40 years of not using diesel oil(Rotella)And my statement is completely truthful I have very neatly avoided any problems it might of caused. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Oldfeller on 07/18/12 at 14:54:41 And, during that same 40 year period of time hundreds and hundreds and hundreds (10's of thousands ???) of four stroke bike riders of all brands and types have been using Rotella products and singing their praises about how well the Rotella stuff works in four stroke motorcycles .... ;D ;D ;D AND now, Bill, since you brought the cost point up on your very own (since I won't kick a Billium when he's down -- no more than necessary anyway) let's talk some about that cost thing a bit since YOU brought it up. Bill, you can go first, I think you need all the windage you can wiggle up for on this one .... ======================= Verslagen, you spent all the money on all the different cases of brands of oil and you ran the tests and you had to fix the engines when they broke on you -- after all that personal experience which oil do you use now? Charon, you were one of the well informed and honorable opposition back when the oil wars first started -- which oil do you use now? |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 15:20:45 OF did you know Klotz has been making 4 cycle motorcycle oil for over 40 years. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Charon on 07/18/12 at 15:37:51 Since you asked, Rotella 5W-40 synthetic in my 250 Ninja. I have Yamaha branded 10W-40 in my 250 Star, only because it was still under warranty at 600 miles and I figured, were there to be any problems, using Yamaha oil might help with the claim. Next oil change it'll get Rotella, probably the synthetic. The S40 got some variety of 10W-40, Havoline I think, at its 600 mile and its 4K oil change. At about 6000 I arbitrarily changed to Rotella 15W-40, even though I usually run oil to the maker-recommended intervals. At the 7500 change, Rotella 15W-40, and again at the 11000 mile change. At both 7500 and 11K I checked the valve clearances, and didn't have to adjust them. So I guess Bill is right when he says if you use a quality oil the valves stay in adjustment. My Ninja got Rotella 5W-40 at 600 miles, and again at 6K. At 6K the valves were in spec, so the quality oil must be working. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Oldfeller on 07/18/12 at 15:41:54 4F4441411B1A2D0 wrote:
What prompts you to make this statement, Bill? Offer up something to back up the statement, please. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 15:44:47 OF you back up your statement that they only been making 10 years. Well, it took him long enough !!!! Wave a hook with a wigglin' worm in front of him long enough and he'll eventually sure enough go canabalize it !!! |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Oldfeller on 07/18/12 at 16:06:59 Why Bill, I would be happy to oblige you. Google is an amazing tool once you get past the easy-use front end. You can type in the Klotz buzz words for their four stroke products and then tell Google to start at Jan 1 of a year and show all results up through the end of that year. Interesting thing is it doesn't show any 4 stroke results at all until 2001 to 2002, and 2002 is mostly talking two stroke and model airplane fuel, with only a single product (a 10w40) showing up for a four stroke engine. 2012-2002 = 10 years ;D Here's your search results for 2001 to 2002. http://www.google.com/search?q=klotz+v-twin+techniplate&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=gby&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&sa=X&ei=XzgHUOucNYOK8QTSpuSICA&ved=0CAkQpwUoBg&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1990%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F11991&tbm=#q=klotz+v-twin+techniplate&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&prmd=imvns&sa=X&ei=iT8HUPfJO46W8gT4i4XHBw&ved=0CCMQpwUoBg&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2001%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F1%2F2002&tbm=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=b17ce20055cd1f80&biw=1024&bih=763 Reading the results yields all sorts of little tidbits when you stop and read them -- Klotz made all their claims for their Techniplate 4 stroke product based off their two stroke product testing (there was no data specifically based off any 4 stroke engine testing). It was like they had a 2 stroke product and simply talked people into pouring it into 4 stroke dirt bikes and ATVs. At $14.94 a quart no less. It was oil, after all ...... They could have at least said it could make a smoking 4 stroke dirt bike with bad rings smoke a bit less noticeably (and smell better, I always liked the way Klotz smelled). |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by WD on 07/18/12 at 16:09:02 My Savage has been on the road with either CAR 20W50 or DIESEL 15W40 in it since the first oil change. Except once, when I made the mistake of using a 10W40 synthetic that vanished while at a rally. Literally the sump was dry, took two quarts (which is all the more I ever put in it). Bike is a 1998. Speedometer gave up the ghost almost 10 years ago with 17K and change on the odometer. I have never had to adjust the valves. No noises from the timing chain area. No glitter in the oil. Still run the factory clutch discs since they are still good. Used a lot of motorcycle synthetics in my liquid cooled VN800A. 44K miles in 18 months of ownership. Sold it to the junkyard when the bottom end started hammering. Hmm, my air-cooled throwaway is internally perfect at 14 years old, my liquid cooled go anywhere do anything was done at 4 years old (bought it used)... I'll stick to diesel strength oils. Even in my 3 cylinder gas burner John Deere, a 1020 UL on its 5th decade of use... |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 16:24:37 I called the Klotz company and said I used there 2 stroke oil,But just seen lately they had four stroke oil,And ask him when they started making 4 stroke oil he said back in the 1960s.The main reason I check Klotz was I found this place 6 months before I bought my bike and saw how many people were having trouble with the motor.My wife went 24000 miles on her GN 400 no troubles no valve adjustment or any problems.So I decided I better get the best oil I could get. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by arteacher on 07/18/12 at 16:31:40 I use Rotella T6 and have noticed that the bike runs cooler, quieter, and doesn't use as much oil in the hot weather. When I got the bike I used Suzuki oil for the first year. The only experience with Klotz I have is in model airplane engines which don't have rings (the small ones anyways) and racing fuel- for two stroke go kart and dirt bike engines. When I started making my own model airplane fuel I used castor oil- the engines seemed to last longer. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 16:33:08 Suzuki oil is shell oil,Yamaha mobil. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by ralfyguy on 07/18/12 at 16:47:46 3F34343D313E3F2524500 wrote:
I have the same experience. I switched to T6 some two years and 7,000 miles ago and haven't looked back since. I checked the valves twice in between and there was nothing to adjust. Right from the start the engine sounded better, especially when hot. The valves are still as quiet as the last time I adjusted them, so i won't even bother checking them again. There seems to be no need to do so. The bike never ran better than now. I will never put a different oil in there again, it just doesn't get any better than this. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Oldfeller on 07/18/12 at 17:58:26 Now that we have Wiggly Bill's objections all answered, we'll now poke him in the arse with the nasty red hot smoking poker thing .... Bill, from the very get go 4 stroke Klotz has cost over $13 a quart retail (before shipping). You say you can buy it cheaper, but nobody else has ever beat $9.99 a quart (plus shipping on top of that). Generally, after shipping you still pay $12-13 a quart for the red Klotz stuff no matter how carefully you buy it. We've shown it doesn't work as good as Rotella T-6, which we all can buy at our local WalMart -- or order it on WalMart online to be shipped to our local WalMart store, so you can pick T-6 up locally at the same price no matter if stocked or not. Rotella T-6 can also be picked up at most decent auto parts stores at about $3 more a gallon than the WalMart price. Let's see, let's do some basic math now .... (sorry Bill, more facts and data stuff again, sorry about the rash its gonna give ya to go along with them fresh crispy oozing poker burns) Two quarts of Klotz at $13 each = $26 for a single oil change A gallon of Rotella T-6 (two oil changes) = $21.36 http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=rotella+t6+5w40 So, can we say the good T-6 stuff cost less than half as much as the red koolaid stuff that Bill pushes? And is many times more available? :D Hissssss goes the red hot poker as it hits the quivering Billium meat Aieeeee !!! goes the wiggly Billium ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/18/12 at 18:26:19 I was in business all my life,buying cheap stuff doesn't work out in the long run,They say they don't use as much oil,My doesn't use a thimble full in 3500 miles.Mine shifts a lot smoother than with Shell Suzuki oil. If I didn't use Klotz it would be Amsoil or Mobile One motorcycle oil.Never would I ever think of using and oil make for a watercooled diesel engine when you can buy motorcycle oil made for air cooled engines.I've had a lot of cars trucks motorcycles snowmobiles bobcats lawnmowers generators,I'm 73 and had a lot of experience and believe in taking the best care of tools and machinery. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Oldfeller on 07/18/12 at 22:24:06 Oh my, where oh where to begin? He says he has lots of experience and he believes in taking the best care of tools and machinery ..... wow. This is Bill67, who has never adjusted the valves in any of his bikes, except that one time on 1 MotoGuzzi and that was what, 28 years ago? Bill, you haven't used any oil in your Savage nor have you changed it in 3500 miles, but you also freely admit you don't put but 500 miles on your bike in a year and that means you have had the bike for over 7 years now and have done nothing to it in the way of maintenance at all. ::) Bill, Savage maintenance expert extra-ordinary |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by verslagen1 on 07/18/12 at 23:37:27 5D56535309083F0 wrote:
I didn't know that. So zuk oil is rebranded rotella. I've been using the right stuff all along. thanks for the info bill. ;D |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Serowbot on 07/19/12 at 00:11:08 Did you know?... Klotz sells a chapstick?... No,.. really!...:-?... Pucker up, baby... I can go all day... :-* :-* :-*... ;D ;D ;D... http://www.klotzlube.com/smallprodimages/KL-711.jpg |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Drifter on 07/19/12 at 04:45:34 I tried t-6 in my 250 virago.....it rattled alot and the shifting was notchy so out it came and in went Mobile 1 20-50....no rattle and the shifting was better. 55k miles on my Kaw Z-1 used mobile 1. I have a suzuki guad 250 i bought new, it now has 4500 hard working farm miles on it most of which were a couple hundred yards at a time. After breakin i have used only Mobile 1 syn oil in 12 years i have only had to adjust valves 1 time. This thing has pulled trucks cattle the tractor, logs hay, deer you name it hard miles! Probably the best vehicle i have ever owned! Everyone has an oil story, read study use your best judgement run what you want. Pay for good oil now or pay the mechanic later..... ::) |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 05:03:09 Mobile 1 is very good oil been using in my cars and truck since it came out. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Dave on 07/19/12 at 06:07:46 I have not yet been converted to the Rotella T.......not knowing the level of ZDDP level is what is holding me back. The ZDDP is comprised of Zinc and Phosphorus and helps prevent scuffing of metals surfaces under high pressure. When catalytic converters where becoming fouled by the ZDDP the amounts of it were reduced in oils - and this started problems with cam and lifter wear in flat tappet engines. Motorcycle oils have kept the high levels of ZDDP of around 1,200 ppm - while automobile oils have about half the ZDDP levels of motorycle oils. Below is a link to the Shell web page for T6.....and here is a qoute from that page: "Shell RotellaŽ T6 is formulated with reduced levels of ash, phosphorous and sulfur to help maintain the efficiency of the latest vehicle-emissions technologies." Shell Link: http://www.shell.com/home/content/rotella/products/t6/ Now it may be the the Rotella T6 works great....and I won't argue with the success that people are having with it. I really would like to know how much ZDDP is in the oil before I make the switch. It could be that even with reduced levels of ZDDP....the diesel oil may still have enough ZDDP to provide protection to our cams and rocker arms. So far my search on the internet has not found any reliable sources of the ZDDP level. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 06:34:36 Klotz mx-4 has 1400 zddp in it. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Oldfeller on 07/19/12 at 06:44:07 1200 PPM (both advertised and checked as real) We gots to break you in on VOA's and UOA's at Bobistheoilguy.com. They NEVER trust anybody's advertised ZDDP numbers unless they do a Virgin Oil Analysis to verify they are not lying to the public (some brands do, or rather you can say that they changed formulations without notifying their customers). Mobil 1 has done this trick several times now. Then they run the oil for their intended miles up to change time and then they do a Used Oil Analysis to see what the numbers dropped down to and how much of what sorts of wear metals the oil picked up from wear in the engine. Just type "VOA Rotella T-6" into your browser and Bobistheoilguy.com will pop up at the top of the results with a series of VOA from most recent on back. Here is an example. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2330040 The dark column is Blackstone's average results for all HDEO oils, which have a lot higher ZDDP levels than car oils do, generally speaking. And Rotella products have more ZDDP than the HDEO average. We get a lot of information from Bob -- there are a whole lot of folks who pay $35 a test to watch Rotella products like a hawk to keep Shell from screwing up and changing it -- they like it the way it is now. It is interesting, only just lately has Klotz or most of the standard dino motorcycle oils realized they have to have more ZDDP than their car products do to keep motorcycle engines healthy. Now they are treating like an advertising war (which it is, of course). |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Dave on 07/19/12 at 07:21:22 OF.....Those were the kind of numbers I was hoping for....not only for my Savage - but my Diesel tractor as well. It seems that the ZDDP level is one of the major differences between auto oils and motorcycle oils, as bikes don't have rollers on the rocker arms and need higher ZDDP levels to survive. It may also be that the roller and ball bearings on the cranks need the higher ZDDP levels as well. The specifications for oil can change so quickly, as the Government keeps passing new regulations and requirements to keep us all.......healthy/confused/safe? |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Charon on 07/19/12 at 08:58:36 Many newer motorcycles now have catalytic converters in their exhausts. I do not know whether these cats are of the type that can be damaged by phosphorous. If so, things might become interesting with the conflict between the needs of the cats and the needs of the wet clutches. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 09:23:30 4E4540401A1B2C0 wrote:
MX-4 is Klotz newest oil it is 1400 zddp there other oil might not be. Bill is being honest here, Klotz doesn't tell you what is in their oils, ever. They only claim ZDDP content levels in one of their umpteen brands of 4 stroke oil, and that is because it is an advertising gimmick to them. Bobistheoilguy doesn't have much data on Klotz because the poor suckers that buy it always do it on faith and they don't believe in FACTS or DATA. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 09:31:00 OF if you were to use Amsoil,Which would you use their motorcycle oil or their diesel oil. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Oldfeller on 07/19/12 at 13:00:01 You must be talking to Verslagen about that Amsoil stuff, not me. He has actually used a whole case of Amsoil brand oil and he simply reports that it is oil, it gets dirty just as quick and it exits his engine just as fast. Why in the world would I pay 3-4 times the going price for a very very good oil just to buy something that says it is made from dirt right there in the name? Am Soil |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 13:01:14 464D48481213240 wrote:
OF is this question to hard for you to answer |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 13:10:09 No, I think I answered it plenty clearly. In what reality would I (me, Oldfeller) be plunking down $13-$15 a quart for Amsoil oil products of any sort or type or description? Or Klotz, for that matter? I don't live in your reality Bill, most of the rest of us don't either. I would splurge and buy the gallon of Rotella T-6 that outperforms your Klotz and pay less than half the price of your Klotz when doing so. I think the list just hiccuped again ..... "Bill" was talking sense there for jest a second or so. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 13:15:07 I think Ive got OF hiding behind his wifes apron.OF's got klotz on his brain hes writing in red now. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Oldfeller on 07/19/12 at 13:18:02 Wow, I won't answer his whacked out hypothetical question that has me paying $15 a quart for Amsoil oil and now I'm hen pecked? Ok Bill, whatever you say buddy. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by splash07 on 07/19/12 at 13:21:56 Did any one even answer poor coaxial's questions????? Here let me remind you, as I am sure many here have forgotten what with the oil firefight going on and all....... "How hot is too hot?" well.......hhmmmmmmmmmm? |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 13:23:22 If Versy wanted to test diesel oils why didn't he use Klotz and Amsiol diesel oil. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 13:26:01 67647875677C2423140 wrote:
OF thinks it to hot now I hope he don't jump off the roof |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 13:29:14 Help Help Versy what do I do Bills got me cornered. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by verslagen1 on 07/19/12 at 13:58:46 43484D4D1716210 wrote:
MX-4 is Klotz newest oil it is 1400 zddp there other oil might not be. [/quote] OF Quote:
If anybody cares to have 2 year old vintage virgin oil analized... I will donate what I got for the effort. Bill? got $35 burning a hole in your pocket? |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Charon on 07/19/12 at 15:14:11 To try to answer the Original Poster's question. As far as the motorcycle is concerned, there isn't any ambient temperature likely to be too hot, at least until the gasoline in the tank starts to bubble out. As far as you yourself are concerned, you have to judge whether you think you'll get heatstroke. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by WD on 07/19/12 at 16:13:36 As long as you are moving the bike doesn't seem to be overly affected by heat, other than the fuel system. Temps much over 100*F and mine gets parked, even the liquid cooled ones. Hot air is thin air which makes for a lean fuel charge. So your bike runs even hotter than usual. It's an ancient Harley trick, but if you are going to be riding in consistent temps over 90-95*F, go up a jet size. Compensates for the thinner summer air. It works. Why? Ask Lancer, he's the carb guru. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 18:16:37 Vergys still got that old klotz oil thats true love. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? Post by Oldfeller on 07/19/12 at 18:29:37 10333B393A33333A2D5F0 wrote:
The newbies question was answered in the very next post. If you are worried about heat and your engine, get a heat proof synthetic oil. With something like Rotella T-6 in your sump you need not sweat idling the engine in the heat or the other popular forms of bike abuse -- the oil is good for temperatures beyond what the Savage can reach. Now you can't say this for dino oils, no matter what the brand. And you can't say it for all synthetics either. =================== Bill is over there having a little victory dance for himself, having awarded himself a "win" because I won't buy his $15 a quart oil of any variety or sort, I would not even do it in his own little private reality where he lives. Not ever gonna happen, not even in his imagination. Hey Bill, you finally "won" ..... feels GOOD doesn't it? Tell us all about it -- hey, when is the campaign and the slinky girls gonna arrive? |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 18:44:02 OF if he gets Klotz a heat proof synthetic oil should he get their diesel or motorcycle oil. Bill, can you make a recommendation, since you are the only person on this list that buys and uses Klotz oil? |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by bill67 on 07/19/12 at 19:23:55 Yes I can use only Klotz motorcycle oil in a motorcycle forget the diesel.If you have a diesel engine then use the diesel oil in car truck or what ever. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Charon on 07/19/12 at 19:33:11 As far as high temperatures, the airlines stop operations when the airport temperature exceeds 120 F. It isn't because the airplanes won't fly, but because there are no published performance figures above that temperature. High temperature reduces air density, which reduces engine power and wing lift. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by rfw2003 on 07/19/12 at 19:39:46 Myself as long as it's rated MA, JASO and has the required amount of ZDDP in it and doesn't have the friction modifiers I would have to test the oil by using it to see which worked best for my bike on keeping temps and wear in check. I have no issues with doing oil analysis when picking an oil and also finding out the required change interval on a new to me vehicle. Although I don't go through the entire index of oils to find one either. I normally pick from known good oils and go from there. I haven't done any oil analyst on the Savage because 1 the interval of change is so quick regardless of the type of oil you use, simply because of the small capacity oil filtration system and small oil sump, and 2 full syn Rotella is a know good oil in Air cooled motorcycles and has been tested by others already to have the lowest running temps on our big single. The lower temps tells us that using this oil also means it creates less friction in our big single then the rest that were tested. Now if another oil that was tested showed better results then Full Syn Rotella I would use that instead even if it cost more, but as there hasn't been an oil tested that shows better performance I will stick with the Full Syn Rotella and enjoy the added benefit of it also being very low cost. :) R.F. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by SaVaGeEaRL on 07/19/12 at 21:10:38 What rfw said. |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/20/12 at 08:33:09 I know when its time to change oil. Consumption rate goes up., |
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Title: Re: How hot is too hot? (oil war again) Post by Wake51 on 07/21/12 at 02:14:39 I would imagine the bike would let you know if it's getting too hot before doing damage via sluggishness and wonky sounds. I notice my valves make more noise when I idle for extended periods in high heat. This air cooled engine is well engineered to take heat abuse. That is part of the beauty and fun of riding an air cooled, needs to keep moving at some point. Your calves will be burning out before the engine does. None the less use a few tricks to keep her cool like coasting up to red lights, not coming to an abrupt stop after interstate speeds, and taking the bike on ginger cruising passes after high temp situations. On an interesting side note the situation makes me think of the Steerman Red Baron Squadron that used to frequent air shows. The planes were powered by air cooled radial engines. In tight loops, turns, and such maneuvers the pilot would have the throttle well open to have the engine pulling a lot of power but at a considerably low air speed. After a few passed, a formation would trade off with the other half of the squadron. The planes seeking relief would level off and cruise straight across the sky getting air flow across their engines to bring the temp down. And my goodness... did they sound great while doing it. |
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