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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Who's that knocking? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1342319094 Message started by Dave on 07/14/12 at 19:24:53 |
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Title: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/14/12 at 19:24:53 I bought a used 2007 S40 with only 262 miles on it. Shortly after buying it I started to wonder why these bikes made so much engine noise....turns out mine made more than the others. At about 400 miles I adjusted the valves and that did not help much. The noise is a bit harder sounding than ticking valves. It is much louder under acceleration at low rpm's and it very noticeable at idle. At speed it is much less noticeable. I rode it at the Dragon and it ran for 3 days - but I did get funny looks from people as they heard my clacking bike riding up. When pulling into the parking lot after a long ride it almost sounded like the knocking also had a rubbing/scraping kind of sound underlying the knocking. I previously checked the cam chain and it is only at 13mm and not in need to the Verslagen yet. The sound was most apparent on the right side of the bike - but sounds more like piston slap or a loose wrist pin than a cam chain. At the Dragon ride we blocked the muffler and checked for exhaust leaks - but there was nothing of any significance. I kept riding it not only because I was having so much fun......but I also felt that the cause of the noise was not going to be easy to find as we could not really identify the source by listening. This weekend I tore the engine apart - and sorry to say that although some things look a bit weird, I could not find anything that is an obvious problem. The first thing I thought was weird is the amount of carbon that is already built up in this engine. There is a huge amount of clearance between the piston and head so there was no way the carbon would have taken up enough space to have the piston tapping on the head or valves. The top of the piston was oily looking and not dry when the engine came apart. This engine only has 1,400 miles on it now and I would not think it should have built up this much carbon? The piston had some light scratching on the front and back of the piston, and some matching streaks in the cylinder wall. The piston to cylinder clearance is a very tight 0.002", I have to push pretty hard to get the piston to slide past this feeler gauge, and anything bigger would not go. The manual states the minimum piston clearance should be 0.0020 - 0.0024, and I believe I may be a bit on the tight side of those numbers. If I rotate the piston 90 degrees the clearance measure the same - so I believe the cylinder is round. The side clearance on the piston where the pin is located it 0.012" - so the piston is not round. Pistons are ground oval on purpose so they will expand to be round when at operating temperature. The streaks on the cylinder are mostly coloration and are not deep - the piston scratches are very shallow. The back of the intake valves are clean - but did appear to have a bit of an oil sheen on them - the intake manifold is dry. The cam looks like new, the head looks like new except for the carbon build up - the cam bearings in the head look great. I have taken everything apart down to the main cases - and I have not removed the rotor on the left side of the crank. I cannot find any play in the crank bearings, rod bearings, and all of the nuts on the clutch and crank were tight. The rotor bolt is tight, and a dial indicator on the crank did not show any up/down movement on the left of right. What next? http://i46.tinypic.com/2gwgvgy.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/2eanvqx.jpg http://i47.tinypic.com/2i71jpd.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/25gvrys.jpg http://i46.tinypic.com/zslr49.jpg http://i46.tinypic.com/2gueclk.jpg |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by verslagen1 on 07/14/12 at 19:43:53 I would say your rings are gone. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by ZAR on 07/14/12 at 22:12:36 6F7C6B6A75787E7C7728190 wrote:
Yep! Scoring on the walls is a dead give-away. Now Versy......I know what causes that on a 2-cycle engine(normally lack of lube) but on a 4-stroke.....and at 1400 miles......educate us on the possible causes please. Uh....maybe a poorly fit air filter and lots of dirt or sand?? |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by rfw2003 on 07/14/12 at 22:36:32 pulling the sparky without cleaning the area around it. cranking over the engine with the sparky removed. Running the engine without an air filter. Running it low on oil. Over heating the engine. Lots of things can cause pre-mature ring failure, These are all assuming the engine was built with the proper ring gaps to begin with. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/14/12 at 22:38:46 No air filter & run in a continuous dust storm,, Thats beyond weird. I hope you got a great deal on it. Id sure have to ask the owner how it got like that, |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by rfw2003 on 07/14/12 at 22:51:56 Another thought just entered my mind since I saw how many miles was on it when you bought it, and how little you have on it now as well. Did you do an oil change around the 500 mile mark, to get rid of the break in oil? It's common that the first oil in new motors gets contaminated really quick as it's cleaning out casting sand and other machining debris that was not able to be washed out. This could also cause additional accelerated wear in an engine. That is why they recommend a first oil change at 500 miles. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by ZAR on 07/14/12 at 23:22:01 Thanks RF. I was thinking along those lines too but wanted to see what some of you more experienced wrenches had to say. Dave...I feel for ya bro! That has to suck bigtime. Especially right in the middle of riding season! |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by verslagen1 on 07/14/12 at 23:49:23 Also running with the choke on for extended periods. And maybe the rings were never broke in correctly. How about putting the rings in and measuring the gap? |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Drifter on 07/15/12 at 04:29:41 Maybe the mileage was not right to start with. Seems alot of damage for a couple hundred miles...... ::) |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/15/12 at 04:31:03 Thanks for all your sympathy, support and suggestions. Yes this does really suck in the middle of riding season. I bought a newer, low mileage bike so I could ride and not have to wrench. I am horribly busy at work during the summers.....and this was supposed to be a low maintenance bike! The bike came from Long Island and based on the experience I have when I went to pick it up.......It was not driven in any dusty conditions. The bike probaby spent a lot of time stuck in traffic, and it idled a lot at traffic lights and probably never saw much open road action. The woman I bought it from was dating a biker and was learning to ride - but then they broke up and she had no interest in riding anymore. I believe the mileage is actual as the bike was very clean and the tires and drive belt showed no wear. The air cleaner and the housing are very clean....I did have it on a dirt road on the Dragon trip but I rode off to the side of the fellow in front of me and didn't get too dusty except for the rear wheel and swing arm. The top of the cylinder head has always been clean from what I can tell, and I doubt that any dirt fell in during a plug check or change. I am an oil change Junky during the break in and I changed the oil immediately after getting the bike at 262 miles, then again at 400 miles and again about about 800 miles. I made the change at 800 to see if using 20W-50 might help to make it less noisey.....the temperature around here was in the 90-100 range during that period. The oil does not show any metal bits and comes out pretty clean at those intervals - the oil in the level window was always honey colored. I used Suzuki 10W-40 for the first change and Valvoline 20W-50 motorcycle oil for the 2nd change. The bike never made any noticeable smoke out the exhaust, and I never noticed any oil consumption. I wish I had done a compression check before tearing it down. The ring end gap measures 0.020. The Clymer manual shows the installed range to be 0.012 - 0.018, and the wear limit to be 0.039. My rings appear to be nearly new from a clearance perspective. I have a friend that is active with the KLR650 crowd and a good motorcycle mechanic and he has raced and worked on road race bikes for years. He says that Suzuki has a problem with the ring seating in their big singles. I have never seen that comment on this forum......but I have seen it on the forums for the other Suzuki singles and even seen people report on Warranty repairs to correct it. They are not sure of the cause buy claim ring flutter or out of round cylinders might be a cause. I am not sure of the scoring issue. It is very minor, and in my chainsaw experience there can be a problem with carbon scoring when the engine is run too rich or with too much oil. The carbon can come loose and get along the cylinder wall/piston clearance and cause scoring. I have no problem honing the cylinder to clean it up and getting a new set of rings......might as well clean up the head and replace the valve seals while it is apart. I am still looking to find the source of the knock however......I don't yet understand how these cylinder issues would have caused the engine clack/knock that I was having. It sounded like piston slap at idle and detonation during hard acceleration. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/15/12 at 04:46:20 The only ugly sound I ever got out of mine was when it was new. Until it was broken in, a launch from a stop would sometimes get an unnerving clattering sound out of it, but at idle it just sounded like a sewing machine in need of some adjustments, |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Oldfeller on 07/15/12 at 05:01:07 Not me, Kemosabe. Both Lancer and I looked at his bike up at the Dragon, and he has a very sharp heavy knock sound coming from the lower end (right side). Dave, I never said head area, I never bet on piston slap, I said counter balancer bearings or crank bearings (big assed failed ball cage ball bearings) and those items are all in the lower end of the engine. To find these things you are going to have to split the cases and do a FULL engine tear down. Sorry. Some others might have made hopeful head/jug noises, but t'warn't me what sent you off on a hopeful rabbit hunt to the head/jug area. (although you do have to take them off to get to the cases) Lancer, did you send him off on a rabbit hunt into the head/jug area? I also suggested that you get a mechanics stethoscope and search out the exact origin point of the big heavy knock sound before taking the bike apart. Verslagen, tell the man all about counter balancer bearings losing the ball bearing cage and making a heavy knock sound on acceleration. I think you know more about that than I do since you dealt with it directly. Now, what's really really sick about the whole thing His bike is practically brand new .... should have been a warranty issue if the original owner had got off her ass and had taken it in to the dealership inside the first year. But she didn't. She never ran it hard enough to even seat the rings and she ran the idle speed running way down low too. If you could prove that she did take it in and the dealership bullshitted her that it was "a normal big single sound" then you could protest to Suzuki USA and perhaps get somewhere. Especially if they were the ones that set up that low idle speed for her to putt around with inside New York City. ;) (How were your head cam bearing journals? If there is no galling of the aluminium then the low idle speed did no damage and your oil pressure may have been OK after all) |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/15/12 at 05:57:35 If I was in that spot & couldnt get it handled by Suzuki, Id sure think about getting a motor to stick in it, then I could ride & work on the the other one, build it up & do all the performance stuff thats been done & proven. Once its up & running & proven to be solid, sell the other one, |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/15/12 at 07:50:48 6B4840424148484156240 wrote:
I am not only looking at the head/cylinder/piston......I just thought the carbon and wear were unusual for a bike with so few miles and need to fix that issue....but as of last night I had still not found anything that I thought was a blatant cause of the knock. With the engine down as far as it is I can pull see all of the bearings and races on the balancing shaft and they look great and I cannot get any movement from them. The right side crank bearing looks great and I cannot get any movement, and the rod shows no movement up or down or twisting and only has a small amount of side play. However.......this morning I placed the engine on the floor and put my knee on top.....and if I pull up and down on the (left side) alternator rotor I can feel and hear a slight clunking noise. At first I thought maybe it was the mounting of the rotor.....but if I pull up and down on the center shaft I can still feel the movement as well. I am going to go out and put the dial indicator back on the left crank throw and see if the movement is measurable on the crank, and also check the tightness of the alternator rotor. Is there any method to get the rotor off without buying the puller? Anyone have one they can rent to me, or do I just need to drop the engine off at the dealer for them to pull the rotor for me? The oil pump seems to be doing OK. When I pulled the engine apart there was a pool of oil in the well where the cam lobes dip, and the cam seems to be getting plenty of oil as it still has not worn the black oxide coating off the bearings surfaces. http://i47.tinypic.com/do5q9v.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/2eb5ncl.jpg |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/15/12 at 07:56:13 If you can measure the depthe of the groove in the cam bearing at the bottom & at the sides, youll know exactly how much its worn. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by verslagen1 on 07/15/12 at 08:38:07 183B3331323B3B3225570 wrote:
The knock sound was the original '88 engine, that one had a burnt piston with seized rings. The knock sounded low, but I traced it up to the piston. The '02 engine with the failed bearings made an occasional whine. Then finally failed with a ratta ratta sound as the CB smacked the bottom of the jug. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/15/12 at 08:43:52 67787E7964635262526A78743F0D0 wrote:
I wondered if posting the picture of the cam would be a good idea. Although the photo looks like the cam is really dirty and may have gotten hot.....that is actually the black oxide coating that is just beginning to wear off. The cam and bearings are just getting broken in and polished off. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Oldfeller on 07/15/12 at 08:52:49 you got a pic of the cam sitting in the journals -- both are fine Good news, you had no oil pressure issues at all and you can quit worrying about oiling issues and wear due to same. All the stock cams have the heat treat black oxide left on them intentionally by Suzuki (cheaper that way and they can claim it holds an oil film better than a dry smooth ground part). I shined mine up .... goal is to reduce start up wear on the cam bearing surfaces after all. Lateral movement in the rotor means that the crank is not being located correctly by a completely trapped huge ball bearing and a heavily clamped piece that indexes off of that trapped bearing. Guys, check me on this, the lateral clamp up for the crank comes from the primary gear retaining nut by the cam chain, that big assed left hand threaded nut that holds on the primary gear and cam chain sprocket is the controlling side that tells the crank where to spin lateral wise.. ================ The crank is not supposed to float or move laterally nor are any of the pieces associated with the crank supposed to be floating around laterally. Somebody at the factory screwed up and didn't tighten something (if the big nut is allowing movement) or they didn't install a bearing retaining plate correctly (if the big assed ball bearing is moving laterally in its machined race). Or the machined hole is oversized/over deep and it is not holding on to the bearing ... Time to go get the Clymers manual and see how it really is supposed to work ..... Yup, right side big assed ball bearing on the crank is trapped by a bearing plate and has a major torque value on the left hand threaded nut that traps all lateral motion on the crank/rotor assembly. Ditto for the counter balancer assembly, big bolt on the right side pulls it tight against a bearing plate retained big assed ball bearing so it can't have lateral motion either. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/15/12 at 10:16:29 Oldfellow. My crank is not moving laterally - it is moving up/down a tiny amount when I pull straight up when the engine is in the normal engine attitude it would be when in the bike. And when I pull up and push down.....it makes a little "clunk". Add another 29-7/8 Horsepower and it may well be the source of the noise. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Oldfeller on 07/15/12 at 10:32:25 Four possible sources for a vertical motion as you describe. Standard internal radial clearance of the ball bearing itself on that side (very very small movement). There is a check spec for the ball bearing itself from the bearing mgf and I think the test v block specs in Clymers should reflect the wear limit for the same item. Broken ball race cage in that bearing, allowing the balls to move to the sides thus permitting the crank to move up/down more than the standard internal radial clearance of the ball bearing itself. Ball bearing pocket mis-machined (oversized) allowing entire bearing outer race to go up down. Wrong bearing (ID or OD) Every time the crank counterweight rolls up or down that motion is gonna take place -- this would be in time with the sharp knock sound you were doing at the Dragon. The noise will increase as the room to move slowly increases. Here are the faces of the Dragon folks listening to Dave's knock .... Once you stuffed rags into his pretty loud muffler to shut it up you could really clearly hear the sharp knock even at idle speed. http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF001317.JPG http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF00146.JPG |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/15/12 at 18:25:29 Yep.........It was just a bit more than 2 weeks ago I was riding around making lots of noise at the Dragon. Now.........not so much noise! |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Oldfeller on 07/16/12 at 18:31:15 Did you see any signs of the counter balancer weight clipping the cutout in the jug? This happens when they are installed with the timing incorrect or they get wonky when a bearing ball cage lets go and the weight starts to wander a bit .... |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/17/12 at 06:37:12 7B5850525158585146340 wrote:
Nope.....no strange marks or metal bits anywhere. The cutout on the bottom of the jug still has black paint on it, without any marks of any kind. The only thing I saw that I thought was a bit goofy has been commented on by others. The right crank half has a bluish tint and the machined surfaces are shiny - while the left crank half is silvery and more of a matt finish. Both sides have evidence of rubbing - I guess it was while they moved the crank around at the factory as I cannot see any reason yet that it happened in the engine........however the cases are not yet split. I am going to the dealer today to see what they will charge to pull the alternator rotor.....if it is too expensive I will buy a puller. http://i47.tinypic.com/34fy2om.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/6ghqhg.jpg |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by ralfyguy on 07/17/12 at 10:52:19 What is so rough around the edges? Or is it from the casting? |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/17/12 at 17:36:16 72616C6679677579000 wrote:
Yes, the rough edges are where the smooth machined parts meet the casting marks on the edges. The part I thought was weird was the rub marks on the machined surfaces....but those may very well be just from being in a work bench at the factory, as there is no visible sign of anything in the engine causing them. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/23/12 at 15:56:16 Well I got my puller and removed the alternator rotor and starter stuff. The next thing holding me back was the 46mm nut holding the flywheel on. I could not find any friends or relatives with a 46 mm deep socket.....but I found a $ 7.99 shallow one at Tractor Supply. I have a meeting tonight and just had enough time to cut the socket in half so I can extend the depth, and when I tried the fit on the nut with my fingers.....the nut spun! The nut that is supposed to be torqued to 100 ft. lbs. was finger tight! Now I have to figure out if the loose bearing allowed the nut to shake loose - or if the loose nut was causing the problem. I imagine the flywheel was shaking back and forth a bit and making noise. I tightened the nut with a big crescent wrench, and I am still getting some play so I suspect the bearing still has some play in it. I need to go to a meeting.....so I won't get to work on it any more tonight. Tomorrow night I might get to take it the rest of the way apart. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/24/12 at 17:31:44 I got the cases split tonight and looked things over. The bearing looks like it is a bit "less than smooth".....but not really rough. I was able to move the crank up and down a tad on the left side before splitting the case - while the right side was tight and could not be moved. The left side moved more up and down then it did front to back. At this point all I can do is order the parts.....and hope it works. http://i49.tinypic.com/xaxk0g.jpg http://i48.tinypic.com/famtl2.jpg http://i46.tinypic.com/2a96553.jpg http://i50.tinypic.com/spzzh4.jpg Sorry about the picture quality - my camera does not do well close up. I might go out and stand back a bit....and use the zoom and see if that works better. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by ralfyguy on 07/24/12 at 17:41:55 I agree. Those bearing and roller surfaces aren't looking really great, but should not be the reason why there is so much play. Me thinks that the whole bearing was out of tolerance from the factory. I guess you got the "Golden Ticket" so to speak. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Oldfeller on 07/24/12 at 19:01:44 Contact the complaint line and ask for warranty service on the factory installed defective bearing. SuzukiUSA isn't interested in bad publicity, your parts should be free (or the complaint man might perhaps make a call to the nearest dealer instructing them to go pick your bike up for full warranty service) such miracles might be in the cards since your problem is SOOOO VISIBLE to the SuzukiSavage.com world. :P But then again, would you trust Mikey to put your bike back together ??? |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Cavi Mike on 07/24/12 at 20:03:40 You have to turn your macro on if you want to do close-up pictures. There should be a button with a flower on it. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/25/12 at 05:09:51 7C5E49567256545A3F0 wrote:
I did turn on the macro and turned the flash off - the problem is that the autofocus doesn't work well as there are just too many irregular surfaces for it to focus on. The good news is that the inner and outer bearings races are tight on the shaft and in the case and they had to be pulled out - so the only play could have been the bearing itself. I placed a $ 411 order with Ron Ayers last night.......about $ 80 of that was for a new 25 tooth Kawasaki countershaft pulley. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Oldfeller on 07/26/12 at 02:23:57 Spent time last night while I was asleep thinking about your ugly bearing. The black marks mean it got hot or underlubed or bound up at some point in time, now if this was before the "undersized" took place or not I cannot say. But the banging didn't help any .... Before you put it all back together you might want to trace the oil passages back through the crank that lube that bearing. Oil goes into the crank end from out at the right hand extremity of the crank (fed by the right hand cover) and exit through drilled passages in the crank itself -- might want to assure yourself the passages are all clear and have nothing rattling around in them that could move and seal off that oil feed. Also be mindful that the exit spray of oil is supposed to bounce off the bottom of the piston -- part of the cooling package. Those roller bearings -- they may be available singly in small increments from Timken or the original OEM supplier. If you need to tighten it up some. :D Mods like porting take place now while the head is off. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Mattdw on 07/26/12 at 15:12:42 The pessimist in me thinks to not ignore the possibility that the bike had the speedo replaced at some point and it may have many many more miles on it than you thought when you bought it? This is assuming the title would have to be jacked with too. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 07/26/12 at 15:50:54 3930233C3135203B3A540 wrote:
I seriously doubt it. The bike was immaculate when I picked it up. Still had little rubber nubs on the tires. The women who was the owner was dating a fellow who was a biker, and she bought the bike and was learning to ride.....and then they broke up and she stopped riding. I am sure the mileage was accurate.....but they were all Long Island and New York City miles and probably involved lots of traffic. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Mattdw on 07/26/12 at 15:54:23 073C3126373B20263D353827540 wrote:
I seriously doubt it. The bike was immaculate when I picked it up. Still had little rubber nubs on the tires. The women who was the owner was dating a fellow who was a biker, and she bought the bike and was learning to ride.....and then they broke up and she stopped riding. I am sure the mileage was accurate.....but they were all Long Island and New York City miles and probably involved lots of traffic. [/quote] That sounds like you couldn't go wrong then. I "stole" a 2007 with less than 1000 miles on it one year ago this month for less than $2k. The carb was all gummed up but after a good cleaning she ran like a champ. Sorry you're having issues with your ride. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 08/06/12 at 05:49:55 Things are coming along slowly - but there has been progress. My parts order came in last week, and I was able to spend some time this weekend and I got the bottom end back together. The left crank bearing was definitely loose, and the flywheel nut was only finger tight when I took the engine apart.....and I am sure the loose bearing and loose flywheel was the source of the knocking. The crank with the new bearing does not have any play - and I cannot move it around and get a clunking noise like I could when I took it apart. It won't be too much longer......and it will be back together. http://i49.tinypic.com/30a6zjo.jpg |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by MeLikeBike on 08/08/12 at 10:10:12 I don't suppose you have video or audio of how it sounded before? I'm still searching for answers on my clacking sound, which is only a little to moderately annoying. But your description sounds close to my problem. I also have still-okay camchain-tensioner clearance and recently checked valve clearances. So I'm waiting with baited breath to see if you solve your problem. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 08/08/12 at 11:31:36 3C202D2E252C480 wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind that my engine will be better when it is finally back together. I don't believe the bearing was the loudest of my problems.....even though the bearing was loose and needed to be replaced. I think the majority of the loud clack was the loose flywheel. The bearing going bad could have caused the flywheel nut to come loose - or maybe the loose flywheel caused the bearing to go bad.....either way the bearing needed to be replaced and the flywheel had to be tightened. If you have checked the cam chain and valve clearances - the next thing I would do is check the flywheel nut based on my problem. Unfortunately you need the $ 80 puller to get the alternator rotor off before you can check the flywheel nut.....then you need a 47mm or 1-13/16" deep socket and a holder for the flywheel and a torque wrench to get things tightened up. I bought the puller and made the holder fir the flywheel - and I would be willing to rent it out for a small fee and a deposit until it is returned. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by MeLikeBike on 08/08/12 at 19:37:24 If I had another bike, I'd probably be in the garage trying this out....but I wonder if this is also my problem, how big a deal is it? (Am I causing significant damage, or running any risks of, say, destroying the bearings assemblies and having the balls run wild in the crankcase?) In either case, I might take you up on that offer on the puller, if i can't source a local lender. It's nice that this is one of the things you can check without removing the engine, which I don't have the clean garage space or discipline to do. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 08/17/12 at 05:24:09 I was able to get the engine completely back together last night. Today I should be able to get it back in the frame and ready to go. I am looking forward to riding again, it has been 6 weeks since I brough the bike home from the Tail of the Dragon trip.....which is the last time that I rode it. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Oldfeller on 08/17/12 at 20:42:32 Two philosophies on run in -- baby it is one philosophy and run it relatively fast, up and down the whole rpm band, never staying at the same rpm for long is the other philosophy. Most race teams use the "run it fast" break in and swear by it for superior and quick ring seating and much much better piston cleanliness. Of course, what choice do they have anyway -- it's a race engine. Think of what that woman did to it the first time as a low rpm "baby it" run in -- she had tons of gunk on top of the piston and the rings NEVER fully seated, not even after a Dragon correction. You may want to be a bit more aggressive when you break this engine in (at least it won't have the same illnesses as it did the last time). |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/17/12 at 22:29:23 IDK if its true, but makes sense to me, to take an engine up the RPM band & SLAM the throttle shut, vacuum sucks the rings hard on the cylinder, I did that a few times on mine, its been a real good runnin engine. When it was real new, under 500 miles, if I took off at too low RPM, it would knock, now, I can ride away from a stop & it wont, they really are tite from the factory, |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by ralfyguy on 08/18/12 at 09:59:24 Sounds to me like you should just run it normally for the most part, just not redline it and not lug it. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 08/18/12 at 10:47:23 IT'S ALIVE..........IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!! ;D (Intentional shouting). I just went for a 20 mile ride and it purrs like a kitten. No more banging and clanging......just good old "Thumpin". No leaks, no drips, and possibly no errors.....except the clutch. When I was ordering parts I ordered new EBC clutch springs that are supposed to be 10% stiffer than stock - but they are weaker and the clutch slips. No biggy, I will just put the stock ones back in. It is nice to be back amungst the "riding". |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Oldfeller on 08/18/12 at 11:06:20 Dave, take a deep breath and don't touch the clutch or anything else right now. It is very common for clutches to act strange after a major tear down. Some of this is the solvents we use to clean gasket surfaces get on the stack and can pool around down inside the engine somewhere, some of it is the oil type change that we always do at break in (and the break in compounds themselves that are involved in a major tear down) Run it for at least a week before deciding to do anything. Mine slipped for nearly a full week before settling in after my last tear down. Hasn't slipped since. I saw a bottle of Lucas break in compound on your shop bench. Lucas does not recommend its break in compound for wet clutch motorcycles and we have a long list history with Lucas car products having bad effects on our clutch. Hopefully, your first oil change to a straight (or slightly bumped) Rotella after run in will rectify most of this sort of issues. Plus, didn't you buy some single weight racing oil to do your break in with? Completely different sort of oil there ............ Be patient, wait until you are on your first sump of normal oil before fiddlin' with the clutch insides any (other than adjusting it, of course). Every time you change the oil type you wind up having to adjust the clutch -- oil "stiction" plays a big part in how that clutch works after all. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 08/18/12 at 11:18:56 Thanks OF: I bought the Lucas....but did not use it or the straight weight oil. I did find out about the Lucas not being good for wet clutches....and the straight weight oil can stated it had some additives to reduce friction....which made me think it might have friction modifiers in it. I used Rotella T that I put about 5 oz. of Redline ZDDP additive in. I will ride it for a bit as-is........it will keep me from using too much throttle until I get some miles on the engine. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Oldfeller on 09/05/12 at 10:34:04 Dave, Did your clutch ever straighten out or did you have to switch out the springs? |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 09/05/12 at 18:09:19 OF...Thanks for checking up on me. EBC made an error and have the wrong springs listed for the Savage, their kit is just tooooooo weak. I put the stock springs back in and it works fine. I sent EBC the stock spring measurements and they have sent me a more proper set of springs.....and I will install them next time I have the cover off. But the stock one is working fine so I am in no hurry. The good news is that they now have a chance to list the correct kit and this will save other Savage owners from getting the wrong springs. I have put about 120 miles on my bike since it was put back together, and it is running great and it much nicer to ride without all that knocking and banging. I would have put more miles on it....but this is a really busy time of year for me at work. I am also spending a lot of time closing out the estate of a friend that died recently. We had the estate sale last Friday and Saturday, and we are getting a larger dumpster to get rid of the leftovers. Hope to get some riding in before winter sets in! |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/05/12 at 20:45:13 If youd call the Thrifty Nickel & ask them who has a constant garage sale, or maybe call a second hand store, they mite buy ( & haul) everything. Or, if you gave it all to them, theyd haul everything away & sell what they could, |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by Dave on 09/06/12 at 05:32:10 The estate sale was a big success, and at one point on Friday I counted 68 cars parked in the yard and field. Everything of value is gone, and the only stuff left is things like old clock radios, partial cans of paint, almost empth household cleaning supplies, scraps of lumber, and metal scraps. The plan is to have a truck and tailer where we throw the aluminum, copper,brass in the truck, steel scrap in my trailer to haul for recycling.....and all waste in the dumpster. We might also have a burn barrell for small wood scraps.....but for the sake of time it might just be better to throw them in the dumpster. We have been working on this for 9 months.....and it is time to get it closed out and finished. The house still has a mortgage, and every month another payment comes out of his estate.....so we need to get things cleaned up and the house sold ASAP. |
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Title: Re: Who's that knocking? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/12 at 08:43:50 The house still has a mortgage, and every month another payment comes out of his estate.....so we need to get things cleaned up and the house sold ASAP. Yea, no kidding,, Sorry about the loss of your friend, IM sure his family appreciates all youve done. |
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