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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> 10% ethanol /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1342129522 Message started by J2 on 07/12/12 at 14:45:21 |
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Title: 10% ethanol Post by J2 on 07/12/12 at 14:45:21 Rolled up to my BP gas pump today, and there was a paper sign taped to it ... "May contain as much as 10% ethanol." My initial thought was ... the fact that BP is telling me this indicates to me that it can't be good. I spoke with a good motorcycle mechanic, who was putting some ceramic pads on my front brakes, and he said alcohol in the gas can cause condensation, adding water to the tank. He has seen some damage because of that and recommended that I put an additive in with each fill-up to take care of any water. Anybody have any comment on that? BTW: My dealer put metallic brake pads on my 2006 S40, and it sounded like I was running over a cat everytime I applied the brakes. I took it back, and they cut some little grooves in the pads, with the intention of fixing the squeal. Didn't work. The ceramics seem to have solved the problem. But will they last as long as metallic pads? J2 |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Savage_Rob on 07/12/12 at 15:28:03 I can't even find a gas pump in my area without a sticker similar to the one you described, so all my fuel "may contain up to 10% ethanol". I'm no expert but my gut feeling (and from what I've seen so far) is that if it's operated regularly, it's not going to be too much of an issue. I just wish they would tell us exactly what the percentage is so we could make informed decisions and also to enable us to gauge fuel mileage better. In any case, fuel stabilizers like Sta-Bil (the marine formulation is better) and Star-Tron are designed to help with this but add cost and are not convenient to carry around. I add a fuel stabilizer to my 5-gallon gas can's contents because that's used for lawn equipment and may sit for longer periods. I think/feel/hope that running my bike often enough will keep me from having any such issues with it. If you anticipate going for an extended period without riding, I'd suggest adding fuel stabilizer to your tank and riding it around the block a couple times before parking it. That way you have treated fuel throughout the system. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by J2 on 07/12/12 at 15:50:21 Seems reasonable. It was the fact that the service station posted the fact that there is ethanol in the gas that made me pause. The mechanic I mentioned recommended the "Star" something or other additive, and he did say I should use this particularly if the bike will be parked for an extended period. BTW: I worked radio in Dallas in the late 1960's (back when KLIF was indeed "The Mighty 1190," a McLendon top rocker. Big D was a fun town. J2 |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Routy on 07/12/12 at 19:36:14 Yeah, like we're all using an additive in all our E10 burners ! Be serious,.....I hope you don't fall for that BS. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/12/12 at 19:54:40 Put the gas in, get on, ride, if you are gonna park it for the winter, drain the carb bowl,, regardless of what kinda gas you have, |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by SALB on 07/12/12 at 20:15:47 The old "HEET" fuel aditive was alcohol, and adding 10% ethanol adds 2 octane points to your gas. The real problem with alcohol is when you add it to a fuel tank that has old gas or varnish. It does a great job of breaking it loose, just to plug the fuel filter and carb down stream. >:( |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by RC on 07/12/12 at 21:39:38 All of our gas here in the Peoples Republic of California is 10% my 09 S40 has run on nothing else its whole life 10600 miles and does just fine. No worrys, this 8.5 to one bike will run on about anything you put in it. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by splash07 on 07/13/12 at 06:33:13 I believe that the ethanol causes most of its damage when it sit in fuel for any amount of time. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/13/12 at 07:10:44 IDK if its still an issue, but on some FI bikes, the ethanol attacked the hoses inside the tank with the FI pump. Its not nice to rubber that isnt specifically meant to work with ethanol. The accelerator pump on the Kawasaki was eaten smoooth UP, blasted thing is the size of a quarter & cost about $40.00,, Daaaang.. . & down on the coast, the boats sit for a long time sometimes & the gas literally stratifies, separates into layers & causes much pain for owners, but, Ive seen no damage to the Zuki, its holding up fine, just top off the fuel if youre gonna park it long term,& if its REal long term, drain it & use that stuff in something with a big enough tank to spread out & not bother anything, |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Dave on 07/13/12 at 07:25:47 I have been an active anti-ethanol guy for years. The 10% ethanol fuel is not a problem in cars or motorcyles that are driven regularly and the fuel is used up frequently. In equipment that sits for extended periods it can be very destructive. Chain saws, tillers, generators or anything that could sit for months without using up the fuel has the potential for damage. How fast the fuel goes bad is open for debate and would depend on the humidity, temperature swings, inside/outside storage, etc. My Stihl chainsaw manual recommends that you drain the tank and run the engine out of fuel if it will be stored for more than 2 months. Bottom line for me is......my regular drivers get ethanol tainted pump gas at every fill up and it doesn't cause any problems. My lawn equipment gets ethanol free fuel that I drive an hour to get and buy in a 55 gallon drum that lasts me all year. I also use ethanol free fuel in my Trials motorcycle, as the ethanol fuel swells the nylon fuel tank and makes it soft and squishy! |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/13/12 at 10:20:44 If ethanol caused NO problems with equipment, I would still be against it, |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Routy on 07/14/12 at 07:15:14 Quote: In equipment that sits for extended periods it can be very destructive. Chain saws, tillers, generators or anything that could sit for months without using up the fuel has the potential for damage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prove it ! I have proved just the opposite,....posted pics here of the inside of a carb bowl that has been burning E10 for 4 yrs, and that sets all winter long, and it was spotless. I've just been using a small 2 stroke tiller that not only set every winter, but is now running on last years 40:1 E10,......it still start on the 2nd pull and runs perfect. But, believe what you want to, and do whatever work I guess. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Drifter on 07/14/12 at 07:27:29 There are 27 or so different fuel blends being used in the US it seems with different weather altitude etc they react different with ethanol, i have personally cleaned a dozen carbs that were gummed up with this pshit, it also eats holes in fiberglass tanks, go to a marina and ask, or talk to an Ossa owner. Use only Marine stabil or star tron! 10% equals 10% less mileage breaks down the oil film on the cyl wall! uses more energy to produce it and causes grain prices to rise.....total SCAM!! >:( |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by cyclesarge on 07/14/12 at 10:14:28 50667D72607166140 wrote:
+1, I've done 3 tank MPG comparisons (E10 -vs- clear 92) and have gotten 10% (or more) better MPG EVERY time with clear gas on 3 different bikes. I usually run E10 all summer because clear gas costs more than 10% more $$$ than E10 here. But I start filling with clear gas when winter starts so I don't have to worry about adding stabilizers, I still ride most of the winter, just not as much. For anyone interested, do a search for "clear gas" in your area, you'll probably be able to find more than you think. Here, the law says it's only for watercraft, off road vehicles, etc, but the actual attendants have no problem putting it in your car or MC. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Dave on 07/14/12 at 13:08:28 4B445E45595F4C4E46485F2D0 wrote:
What kind of proof would you like? Pictures.....or should I send you the dissolved fuel lines, corroded aluminum parts, rusty tanks? I personally have very little problems - but I have repaired a lot of ethanol damage for neighbors and a contractor friend of mine. Equipment that sits in unheated sheds or garages are far more apt to have problems than equipment that sits in an insulated building. The wild temperature swings and humdity changes accelerate the onset of problems. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Greg-E on 07/14/12 at 16:16:36 Yes, the alcohol has less energy per volume than gasoline so your mileage on e10 will be less, much less on e85. Since there is less energy you are also running slightly leaner, going up to e15 or e20 like some politicians want could damage things like lawnmowers that were not designed for this level of alcohol, as well as start to damage the rubber pieces in older fuel systems and wreck a lot of air cooled carbureted (sp?) motorcycles. The EFI cycles should mostly compensate for the leaner condition, but it still sucks. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Routy on 07/15/12 at 08:17:00 55637877657463110 wrote:
I think some of you should force yourselves out the stone age thinking......, back when the ethanol really was uncompatable w/ some of the fuel lines etc. Fiberglass tanks in boats,......back in the 60s and 70s ?? Ok ! ::) The fact is that everything in the last 20 yrs is compatable w/ E10, and gives no problems at all. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by tarkm812 on 07/15/12 at 08:52:41 My buddy has a 31' Bertram boat that was built in the late 70's that had a fiberglass tank that got destroyed by ethanol. The dissolved tank lining got through the filters and did a number on the internals of his engines also. These boats are very expensive and hardley considered "stone age". I understand that most newer equip addresses alcohol but you're naive if you think it does not do damage to engines that are being used today. Small engines that are not prepped for storage can be ruined. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by ZAR on 07/15/12 at 08:55:51 3A352F34282E3D3F37392E5C0 wrote:
I think some of you should force yourselves out the stone age thinking......, back when the ethanol really was uncompatable w/ some of the fuel lines etc. Fiberglass tanks in boats,......back in the 60s and 70s ?? Ok ! ::) The fact is that everything in the last 20 yrs is compatable w/ E10, and gives no problems at all. [/quote] Routy I have to disagree. I work for an Outdoor Power Equipment dealer. One of the largest in Northern Kentucky with a customer base of near 15,000, commercial,residential,farm and municipal. We average seeing 30-50 2-cycle units alone each week that suffer from ethanol induced problems. Most of those problems are related to failed carbs due to alcohol in the fuel. Several of our commercial accounts are going to avgas for their 2-cycle equipment and all but eliminated fuel related issues. On a smaller scale but growing steadily are the problems with 4-cycle engine of 10hp and under. Clogged carbs,scored cylinders,holed pistons are some of the bigger issues we see every day. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by ralfyguy on 07/15/12 at 12:44:48 I know just one thing for sure: With E10 I have to switch to reserve after about 80 miles. With real gas I don't. In my opinion, ethanol stretched gas is nothing but a large scale scam to make up for increasingly more fuel efficient becoming vehicles. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by mojohand40 on 07/15/12 at 16:43:30 All the gas in my area is 10% ethanol. And It's playing havoc on my bikes! Especially my wife's old 650 Yamaha Vstar. There was a varnish issue, so when I had the bike serviced, and I had it re-jetted for a Hyper Charger intake. Just last week a jet was clogged and one cylinder firing with less then two weeks of putting in new jets and cleaning the carb because of simular issues. Like others have said, If you let your bikes sit for more then a week or two ethanol can give you issues. So far my 750 Honda and Savage seem to be surviving. But, Yeah, I'll drain my carb bowls and tank if I have to stop riding anytime soon for awhile. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Routy on 07/15/12 at 21:37:30 484A4F4A4D444B411115250 wrote:
Is that why all my gas cans are coated inside w/ varnish !! Hum'mmm, last time I looked, all my gas cans that sit winter after winter w/ E10 in them are spotless inside. Fact is, todays gas does not varnish at all. And isn't it amazing how the E10 knows if its a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke. Oh, pardon me, is it the oil in the E10 gas that affects 2 strokes ?? And isn't it amazing how the E10 affects 4 strokes, 10 hp and smaller, but not 11 hp and larger. Come on guys, get real ! ::) Better yet, send some pics of all these late model carb that are just a terrible mess from E10 ! |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Dave on 07/16/12 at 05:22:28 Is that why all my gas cans are coated inside w/ varnish !! Hum'mmm, last time I looked, all my gas cans that sit winter after winter w/ E10 in them are spotless inside. Fact is, todays gas does not varnish at all. And isn't it amazing how the E10 knows if its a 2 stroke or a 4 stroke. Oh, pardon me, is it the oil in the E10 gas that affects 2 strokes ?? And isn't it amazing how the E10 affects 4 strokes, 10 hp and smaller, but not 11 hp and larger. Come on guys, get real ! ::) Better yet, send some pics of all these late model carb that are just a terrible mess from E10 ! [/quote] Routy....E10 damage is very real. Your sealed gas cans don't suffer any damage, as there is no evaporation of the gasoline or chance for humid air to reach the fuel. The same cannot be said for the equipment that sits in sheds, barns or outside. The temperature and humidity changes allow humidity to reach the air space in the tanks and carbs.....and this moisture is absorbed by the fuel and eventually enough moisture collects to cause problems. Sure this kind of stuff happened even prior to E10 - but the onset of problems now occurs faster with E10. The reason that E10 causes problems in 2 strokes faster than 4 strokes is that oil and water don't mix - and when enough moisture has collected in the ethanol it can cause the oil mix to settle out of the fuel (phase seperation). This has been a problem for years and is not something that chainsaw manufacturers will cover under warranty. I believe the reason that 10 HP and smaller 4 stroke engines are affected more than the larger engines is that they use gravity systems without fuel pumps, and people don't normally use a fuel shut off even if the engine is equipped with one. When the engine sits dormant the fuel in the float bowl begins to evaporate and it leaves behind a high concentration of ethanol. As the float level drops more fuel enters the carb and the gasoline portion evaporates.....and this process repeats until about the only thing in the carb float bowl is ethanol.....and it is corrosive to the carbs. On the larger engines with fuel pumps the flow of fuel to the carb stops when the engine is not running.....so the damage is less likely to occur. The same is true of our motorcycles with the vacuum operated petcocks that stop the flow of fuel when the engine is not running. Photos......I really haven't documented the carbs that I have repaired or replaced. I first started working on small engines in 1973 when I worked at a Simplicity/Toro/Poulan dealership, and I have definetely noticed the shift in the repairs. As you say the old fuel used to eventually turn into varnish, and after equipment sat for a long time we would have to clean fuel tanks and carbs, and replace the brittle fuel lines. Now the engines have carbs that are corroded and not usually varnished up, and the fuel lines and rubber parts are dissolved and swelled. I have a feeling that whatever our experience is.......your heels are dug in the sand deep enough that you will only be convinced when you eventually have some personal experience with ethanol damage. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Routy on 07/16/12 at 06:32:43 Quote: I have a feeling that whatever our experience is.......your heels are dug in the sand deep enough that you will only be convinced when you eventually have some personal experience with ethanol damage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are very correct.But I have this feeling that just the opposite is correct on your part too. I won't bore you w/ my vast knowledge and experience on this subject, having worked on fuel systems all my life, and still have enuff equipment (including my s-40) around here that sets winter after winter...."unsealed" to know that all these problems mentioned are not E10 related, but I'll just tell you, that your unsubstantieated hatred for E10, does not make it real, or will it make it go away anytime soon. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by rfw2003 on 07/16/12 at 06:51:20 I myself have not seen any of these issues with e10 either. Even in my lawn equipment when I forget to drain the tanks and carbs when they sit over the winter months. I don't buy fuel from the one and only pure fuel station because they charge $0.60 more per gallon then anyone else in the area so I only use the e10 fuel, and I've never had an issue. As a side not it doesn't get much more humid then where I live, I'm in east TX and live right on a lake, so I get the high temps and loads of humidity. R.F. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/16/12 at 07:09:11 I let the Suzy sit for 2 years, when I drained the bowl, what came out was green & smelled awful. Same with some other engine, but dang I cant remember which one now, anyway, let some sit that long & all thats left is some foul smellin green stuff,, Boat owners down on the Gulf coast have trouble with the stuff. I really dont, & Yea, Ive abuse my chainsaws & they still fire up, tho, not real easy , ( *Note to self : Get those blasted things fired up, drain the fuel & fire them up again) |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Dave on 07/16/12 at 17:54:48 303F253E222437353D3324560 wrote:
Well.....lets just assume that the E10 fuel we get in Kentucky is more destructive that what you get in Oregon. That can be the only reasonable explanation.....our personal experience is vastly different. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by tizzyfit on 07/16/12 at 18:16:29 The last 3 tank fill ups have been with regular unleaded gas, no ethanol. The mileage has improved about 6% over the 10% ethanol blend. The difference in cost amounts to .35 cents a gallon. Personally, I haven't noticed any difference in performance between the two products. Because the CFN fuel farm is relatively close by, I'll continue to pay the additional .35 cents a gallon. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by Routy on 07/17/12 at 06:18:28 01020115030B05600 wrote:
I can't argue how E10 may affect old varnish etc that may have been left from the "yesterdecades" leaded gas......that really did leave varnish and Ka Ka...not only in the bowls, even in the venturis, and even the outsides of all carbs. But I believe we would have to be talking carbs dating back to the early 90s ?? I will say I still use a 2 stroke tiller from that era that never gave any trouble,.....and is the same one that right now is running perfect on last year's 40:1 E10. In reality, we have much less fuel related problems today than we did 30 yrs ago when leaded gas left nasty varnish deposits in anything that set unused for much length of time. |
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Title: Re: 10% ethanol Post by JonRob on 07/17/12 at 15:06:14 My 2 cents: In Minnesota almost all of our fuel is E10. However you can get "non-oxygenated" gasoline at 91-92 octane. Right now its about 15% more expensive than E10. I have had a lot of problems with E10 in my 2-cycle engines and other power equipment. The problems is not condensation, to the contrary, as already posted HEET is methanol that removes moisture from fuel. The problem is oxidation of the Gas90 that occurs over time with ethanol and "gums" up the fuel system. I also agree that E10 gets about 10-15% less fuel economy than premium gas. However the S40 manual I have states that up to 10% ethanol is ok in the bike. Personally I alway use non-oxygenated gas in my motorcycles. |
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