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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Vacuum leak? Or Not. /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1341861242 Message started by Savage 1987 on 07/09/12 at 12:14:01 |
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Title: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Savage 1987 on 07/09/12 at 12:14:01 Here is my situation: I have the Raptor petcock installed. As a habit when I park the bike, I turn the petcock to OFF position. When I come back to the bike, whether it is a few hours later or a few days later, it takes a couple of good cranking sessions to start up. Not a huge deal, but it gives me a scare. There have been a few times where I park the bike and have left the petcock in the ON position. When I do that, the bike usually sits for a short period of time, (less than 1 hour). Under these conditions the bike will start right up with no effort. It is unclear if the ease of starting is due to the engine being warm or fuel being readily available. My question is, could this be due to a vacuum leak somewhere? (My guess would be carburetor) Don't know if this is how it works, but maybe the leftover gasoline in the carb. bowl evaporates, and the system takes a bit of cranking in order to prime itself, thus giving me a longer starting process. :-? Should I always just leave my petcock in the ON position even if it sits for a 4-5 days between rides? I am trying to get a better understanding of the whole carburetor/fuel delivery system. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/09/12 at 12:25:09 Is it pretty hot there? & th carb IS sitting on that hot engine,, maybe turn the gas on & wait about 5 seconds before hitting the button,, the bowl may be kinda low,, I guess you could go out & drain it & see how much is in it.. But why doesnt it act like that in the morning? Heck, man,, IDK,, But Vacuum? Im not seein that as a potential issue.. |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Greg on 07/09/12 at 12:50:35 I can't say for sure what is happening. I believe it is evaporating. I always forget to turn my Raptor off. It sat for a few days while on vacation and was fine. |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Savage 1987 on 07/09/12 at 13:13:55 Yes it has been very hot here. Unseasonably hot in fact. Say for instance, the carb bowl was empty. When I flip the petcock to ON will fuel start flowing into the carb whether or not there is a leak in the vacuum system? |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by High_Plains_Thumpr on 07/09/12 at 13:16:05 Could you have a kink in the fuel line, so that fuel flow from the Raptor is restricted? I'm also wondering if your carb bowl float height is set so low, that the bowl quickly depleats through evaporation on a hot day. Can't say that is the problem, but could be. However that wouldn't explain the delay in starting. I'd flip the Raptor petcock on first, then mount the bike, give a little time for fuel to flow. I'd be tempted also to pull off the fuel line from the carb, just to see how quickly it drains into a container. If it dribbles out, there is something else going on. Perhaps the Raptor rubber disk seal is improperly installed or slipped? Just speculating, but I am sure the answer is out there. |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Serowbot on 07/09/12 at 13:16:34 It's possible that you have a slow leak in your float seat... Next time it sits a few days (with the petcock off)... try opening the float bowl drain screw, and see if there's any gas there... If it's empty... you need to clean or replace the float needle... ;)... (...If there is gas in there... I'd check for a weak battery)... |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by heroicseven on 07/09/12 at 13:17:36 Mine does the same, I have a feelin the gas in bowl evaporates and the churning of the engine to get her running after sitting takes a few turns to pull some fuel through. Leaving the petty on a few minutes before a ride helps but still takes me a few chugs if its been more than a day. |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Savage 1987 on 07/09/12 at 13:19:22 5244534E56434E55210 wrote:
This might be a really dumb question, but if there is a leak in the float seat, where would that cause the fuel to go? |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Serowbot on 07/09/12 at 13:23:03 7F6F6D7E7C6D3D3C3E3C0C0 wrote:
Crankcase oil, or air box... or both... .. depends on parking angle... If this is the problem,... a vacuum petcock would prevent it... Unfortunately,.. it would also prevent you from finding out about it... because the leak would only happen while you rode... That would suck... in a figurative sense... :-?... Blissful ignorance of such a problem is not good for your engine... Better that the Raptor let's you know... ;)... |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/09/12 at 13:27:49 If the valve she a no close off good, the carb she a gonna flood, no? |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Serowbot on 07/09/12 at 13:29:51 4E5157504D4A7B4B7B43515D16240 wrote:
JOG... not if it's a slow leak over a couple of days, and the Raptor is off... |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by verslagen1 on 07/09/12 at 13:31:17 More likely your bowl is leaking than anything to do with vacuum. As there are no vacuum storage on the bike. Even in a car, vacuum tanks are equalized very soon after shut off. Gas should remain in the bowl for a couple of days |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/09/12 at 13:33:20 687E69746C79746F1B0 wrote:
JOG... not if it's a slow leak over a couple of days, and the Raptor is off...[/quote] Ima no argue wid a you on a carb a questione,, You wanna talk abouta the Fed,, Now Ima gonna argue,, |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Serowbot on 07/09/12 at 14:34:46 627D7B7C61665767576F7D713A080 wrote:
I'm a gonna' guessa',... you watcha' the Godfad'er last'a night?... The Fed,... she'sa' mebbie leakin' a bit, too, I think... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Routy on 07/09/12 at 16:27:20 I'm old, but even so, the way I read it, there is something ammis w/ Sero's original post. Maybe I'll go read it again. I have been known to mis read stuff. Edit....... I read it again,...... there is only one way for the bowl to drain of gas, it either evaporates, which will take days, or the bowl itself.....or its drain is leaking. It would have nothing to do w/ the "float needle" leaking. |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by rfw2003 on 07/09/12 at 16:35:57 4F594E534B5E53483C0 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but even if it was leaking by the float needle or seat, this would only really happen with the petcock open, because the pressure of the fuel from the tank would make it leak. With the petcock off there would be no way for it to leak past since the fuel level in the bowl is lower then the float needle/seat there by leaving fuel in the bowl unless the bike was laying down or upside down. R.F. |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Serowbot on 07/09/12 at 16:52:15 55415015171714270 wrote:
My bad... yer' right... The amount in the fuel line might dribble down... but, you're right,.. the float bowl would still be full... Brain fart... :-?... PS... Hope Bamm reads this... Everybody has a blonde moment once in while... ;D... |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/10/12 at 06:25:37 Hey, Row,, Looksa like you mita stepped in sumpin there, ehh? An I dont never watcha them Godfather movies,, too mean, |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Savage 1987 on 07/10/12 at 09:03:18 Looks like I am on to something here. I think a few posts back Serow mentioned weak battery. I think this theory has legs. I have been using a Ballistic Evo2 4 cell lithium battery. My original tests months ago showed that the battery was able to supply the necessary voltage to create a spark. However, over the past few weeks the battery has exhibited strange behavior - not being able to hold a charge, probably also spitting out wacky voltages (peaks and valleys) which could explain troubles starting . I contacted Ballistic, (who has awesome customer service!) and now I am set up with the 8 cell battery. I had to sacrifice a few ounces of weight but I think it's worth it! (Just kidding on the weight comment, I am really not that obsessed ;)) the 8 cell gives me double the amount of CCA. I have done some starting tests when the bike is cold, when the petcock had been OFF for a few hours, and when the petcock has been left ON while parked. All of the starts with the fresh new battery seem to return a very effortless start. So far this evidence makes me think Serow was correct on his battery statement. I am going to continue to monitor the situation throughout the week and will report back any new developments. |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by High_Plains_Thumpr on 07/10/12 at 11:44:39 61717360627323222022120 wrote:
Savage, I'm a little leary of lithium technology for a charging system that is not set up for them. (Chargers for R/C model airplanes & cars, cell phones carefully monitor charging by microprocessor, so they don't overcharge. Lithiums have been known to catch fire if overcharged.) :o I don't know if your battery is designed for motorcycle use. Motorcycle battery manufacturers have incorporated technology that takes into account motorcycle primitive charging circuits (my 1971 Honda CB100 doesn't even have a regulator! :exclamation), and environmental factors with the bike (vibration, heat, etc.). :D I got a generic AGM sealed lead acid battery for the Savage: http://www.batterymart.com/p-Big-Crank-ETX15L-Battery.html http://www.batterymart.com/images/products/mc/big-etx15l_lg.jpg It fits, but my 1987 battery box has a bottom chamfer, the battery doesn't so it was a snug fit. Next time will trim the bottom pad so it slides out easier. Your later model may be different. So far, it has retained its charge over several weeks non-use, and have used it on several 450 mile trips, and one 650 mile one, short trips included. YMMV :) |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Serowbot on 07/10/12 at 11:58:45 Cr@p!... I just bought a lithium power screwdriver... 'cause I thought it was better... :-?... |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by High_Plains_Thumpr on 07/10/12 at 12:12:35 41554401030300330 wrote:
You are correct. With the Raptor petcock in "OFF" position or OEM petcock de-energized (engine off - no vacuum), the float bowl would normally not drain. With high temperatures, fuel could evaporate quicker. (California model has a charcoal canister, don't know if this would help reduce evaporation.) Where the concern comes in, is when the engine is not running, with a manual petcock in the open position or failed OEM petcock, fuel flow from the tank is by gravity. If the flow bowl needle valve is leaking or float is set too high, unable to shut the flow completely, will cause the bowl to overfill, flow past carburetor throat to the combustion chamber. In an automobile with carburetor, fuel is supplied by a low pressure fuel pump (mechanical or electric, less than 15 psig, usually around 7.5 psig). Due to the fuel tank being lower than the carburetor, there is no flow when the engine is off. Needle valve leakage is less evident and less likely to harm the engine. Using the OFF position on a manual petcock is therefore a necessity to prevent potential disasters. |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by High_Plains_Thumpr on 07/11/12 at 08:51:32 5F495E435B4E43582C0 wrote:
There's nothing wrong with a lithium powered screwdriver. Lithium has the advantage of great capacity for the weight. The charger must be specifically made for charging that specific lithium battery pack. FYI, in the case of R/C airplanes and cars, one also usually uses a fire safe bag or ceramic bucket with lid during charging. Because these batteries face abuse in crashes, this is to ensure if a fire occurs, it is contained. People have burnt down garages for failing to use some form of containment. Though not as common, people have experienced cell phone and laptop fires. Video of a lithium battery fire: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5_-eBbDE0s[/media] |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by Savage 1987 on 07/11/12 at 09:04:55 I would not like it if a battery spewed fire just beneath my crotchal region. High_Plains, here is the brief overview of the Ballistic Lithium battery in case you are interested. http://www.ballisticparts.com/products/batteries/batteries.php |
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Title: Re: Vacuum leak? Or Not. Post by rfw2003 on 07/11/12 at 09:35:52 Personally until they get a lithium type battery chemistry that is designed for use as in motorcycle/automotive environments I will never put one on. Our charging systems are not designed for them, plus lithium batteries are not designed to work in all 4 seasons of the year. Though you might be able to get away with it in some areas of FL and CA. I'm not one to stop riding just because it's cold outside and need a battery that will be able to work in sub 50F temps. Yes there are some that will work down to the mid 30's but even still that is not going to cut it in the winter months, especially when you factor in the charging issues with the on-board regulator/rectifier. R.F. |
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