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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Gas Tank Mod /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1341456401 Message started by John in Kalifornia on 07/04/12 at 19:46:41 |
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Title: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/04/12 at 19:46:41 Hi All, Another idea from the brain trust for our Street Tracker. I like the side profile of the Ryca tank but do not like how wide it is, or the hole for the speedo that gets covered by the metal plate. In their quest for using the original parts at all cost, they lost me. I don't mind haunting junkyards for parts. What I found was a tank off a Suzuki GS450L I think it is anyway. I went with the same brand as the frame splits under the tank into two tubes. That makes it hard to find a tank to fit over the rails. I'm not trying to go with the bobber Sportster look with the tank on top of the frame. In a previous post I mentioned this tank and the consensus from you smart people was that it wasn't that much different in shape from the original Savage tank. I agree that it looked too big for the Street Tracker look. Was over at my brother's today inspecting his turbo Pinto motored Morris Minor and showed him the pics of the Ryca tank mod. He said if I would cut off the bottom of the GS tank, he could weld it up. He would even guarantee it wouldn't leak for 5 miles or 5 minutes, whichever came first. I did some sketching and here is what I came up with. The GS tank is on the top, the Ryca mod Savage tank on the bottom. Cutting an inch or so off the bottom of the GS tank seems like it may make for an attractive item. Look at the top views on the right. No ugly hole in the middle that has to be covered with a plate and the GS tank is much narrower. Considering the Ryca costs of cutting the tank and the cover plate I figure I can buy and screw up quite a number of other tanks. Moreover, I get to keep the stock tank in case I need to abandon the project and go back to stock. Any thoughts, people before I fire up the angle grinder? John in Kalifornia http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C04%5Cbikepics-2424398-200.jpg |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by Serowbot on 07/04/12 at 19:51:31 5D76784D1F0 wrote:
Drain the gas out first... :-?... I like that idea, better than the Ryca... with that silly speedo hole plate... Go for it, dude!...;)... |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by RidgeRunner13 on 07/04/12 at 19:59:34 +1 ;D And I like the way you think, keeping the option to back stroke if it doesn't work out like you want. I always try to do mods that I can undo. Sometimes it limits just how wild you can go, but better that than suffering a total loss. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/04/12 at 20:46:27 This bike started as a project for my son and I. We are waiting to get rid of the Honda 350 to make room in the garage. Momma wouldn't appreciate another bike in the backyard. Ordered the chain and sprockets, and the handlebar. Plan is to do the tank mod and chain and bar conversions first. That way the bike is still easily reversible to "stock" sorta if we lose interest. Waiting for the RYCA guys to come out with the pipe and seat before we take the step of changing the forward controls out. The stock exhaust will get in the way of mid mounted pegs. Anybody want a Honda 350 Scrambler? Look in bikepics website under "John in Kalifornia" album for pics of the CL350. I rode it around today but my helmet was shedding foam so I had to quit as I was eating crumbs from the liner, shame as it really runs well. I'm a lot better mechanic than I used to be and did a great job rebuilding the carbs and tuning the bike up. Patience comes with age, but sore joints also. Maybe I should stop at Chaparral tomorrow and get a replacement for the 1983 vintage skid lid. I see a lot of riding ahead with the Street Tracker. John in Kalifornia. |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by Cavi Mike on 07/04/12 at 22:07:50 Looks like these tanks would be the perfect size to remedy the drag-bars-hit-the-tank scenario. I'm kind of in the middle of that pickle right now... |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by Serowbot on 07/04/12 at 23:01:00 John,... have you seen "Girl with the Dragon Tattoo"?... (American version)... That CL350 is in there... Cafe'd!... and it's a dream... I gave away my old CL360.... and now, I'm sorry... I swear,.. I held the front wheel off the ground through 3rd while attempting to merge on the I-10 once... Rockin' power and sound... (not like these buzzy crotch rockets)... Classic British vertical twin rumble... Lovely bike... if they still made them, now, with electric ignition,... I'd be ridin' one.... ... a ton upper, too... |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by ToesNose on 07/05/12 at 04:23:20 Sounds like a good plan, and seems like you don't have much to loose other then a few bucks and time. Looking forward to seeing the final product ;) |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/12 at 07:54:24 IDK hoot about the tank, but if its had gas in it,,& you just start slicing into it, isnt there a pretty good chance its gonna test the pressure containing capacity of the the seams? |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/05/12 at 08:25:16 I can see that the front of the tank on the RYCA bike sits much lower on the frame than the stock Savage bike tank does. It says in their write-up on the tank that they do some cutting on the front tunnel. The stock Savage tank looks like it is tilted up at the front. The RYCA bikes have a much more horizontal stance. That would imply that the tank is rotated nose down, which I don’t think is really the case. I believe that the cut they take on the bottom is more of a pie shaped wedge than a straight parallel to the bottom cut. When I manipulate the outlines in CorelDraw, it becomes apparent. In reality, the GS tank is more rounded on the top than the Savage is. The cruiser/chopper look of the stock bike tank is because the lower portion is fatter in the front. OK, maybe it’s obvious to everybody else but I’m kinda slow. The plan is to visit the bike this week with a BFH and pound the GS tank from the inside to see how low we can make it sit on the frame. I hope we won’t have to cut off the stalks with the donuts that mount the front of the stock tank. That would violate the “Don’t make any irreversible changes” edict. The idea is to get tank as low as we can, without cutting the tunnel. That’s too much work. Then take pics from the side and do some “What if” drawing analysis to see where to cut the bottom off. When we cut the tank then we can put it back on the bike to see how it looks before we call in the welder. Take a small cut, maybe an inch or so and go from there. Just bought a 10 pack of HF cutoff disks. Looking forward to making a mess and lots of noise. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/12 at 13:40:44 Dude, take the HF disks back & go to Lowes & get some good ones, theyll last so much longer they actually cost less. AND they wont shower you with little bits of flying cut off disk., |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/05/12 at 19:02:38 Yes, I should take tose back, along with the "diamond" saw blade for my Dremel table saw. Should know better than to buy cutting tools or abrasives from HF. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/12 at 19:12:08 Hey, John,, looka whut I found.. http://www.theaerosmith.com/custom3.html |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by teabowl13 on 07/05/12 at 19:29:58 I like the look of your drawings. Another tank might look a little more "CAFE" that the GS, but if this one will fit without completely rebuilding it from the inside, I think it's a good one to try. The "view from above" is really sweet. Nice and narrow, and afterall, that's the part YOU will be looking at the most.... ;D Be sure to take some good progress shots and post 'em up here!! |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/07/12 at 03:13:32 Tried out the new helmet last evening and rode the CL350 up the street to check on the progress of RpNSht’s XS650 board track bobber project. Took a look at his Ryca cafe and how the tank was mounted. There was a read deep tunnel in the front. Apparently there was a lot of cutting done to make it fit lower on to the frame. The pics on the “Net don’t show this too well. Maybe that $650 Ryca charges to reshape the tank isn’t such an outrageous amount. I was hoping to just use the brute force method with an assortment of hammers and body dollies to deepen the tunnel. Don't want to have to do too much cutting and welding; just on the bottom. We will see when we get there. Might have to cut off the stock tank mount donuts during the process, or have I mentioned that already? I did some measurements and computer graphic manipulations to calculate the exact amount of "twist" or nose down change that occurs from Savage to Ryca. Taking into account the wheel size change, shock replacement and fork cutting I came up with 5 degrees. Then I rotated a side view of the frame 5 degrees CCW in CorelDraw. Snapped a horizontal line and came up with the angle of the top frame rail to the horizontal. Then I printed out a triangle wedge that I'll copy on to a piece of plywood. Why? We don't have all the new wheels, shocks, etc. just a stock bike. I intend to (1) Bang on the tank to get it to fit as low as possible. (2) Prop up the bike using the plywood wedge and a level to simulate the stance after the mods are done. (3) Place the tank back on the frame and draw a horizontal line where the bottom should be cut off. I'm going to use the manual compression release lever I bought from RpNSht; clearance for that will determine the bottom edge of the tank. The idea is to have the tank and the seat pan bottoms both to be parallel to the ground. Looks like a backwards approach. Logically, the tank should be fitted AFTER everything else is done. This way, however, we can get right to work on the project without even having the mosickle available. Soon's as I sell the old Honda then we can get the Zook in the stall for mods. Did such a nice restore job on the Scrambler and it runs so well Momma sez I should keep it, tho. John in Kalifornia PS- This all seems rather confusing. Want me to post drawings? |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by LANCER on 07/07/12 at 04:47:41 Quote:
yep |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by JohnBoy on 07/07/12 at 15:08:46 With all the calculations did you come up with a total volume of gas? The Savage is pretty skimpy already. I do like the look however. |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/08/12 at 02:56:17 OK here's some specs: Filled up the GS tank with water. Held 3 gallons. Suspect that gasoline would have close to the same amount of liquid. The Savage tank is 13 inches wide. The GS tank is 10 inches wide. Here's what I was talking about on the frame tilt. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C08%5Cbikepics-2425755-800.jpg I went to do some fitting of the tank this afternoon. Forgot the level and triangle. First of all, the wiring was in the way so I disconnected the plugs on the frame rail. When I tried to drop the tank down it wouldn't go very far in the front because of the mismatch between the tunnel and the frame backbone. The backbone had a square section at the front. This explains why the Ryca tank I looked at had a rectangular cutout on the front. I will have to modify the tanK so it will sit lower at the front by cutting the tunnel and boxing it it. This only has to be done at the very front as the main frame backbone drops down at an angle, as the above pics show. Camera ran out of battery so there are no pics of me cutting the rear tab off the bike or hammering the tank with the BFH. The tunnel at the rear was about half an inch too narrow to fit over the frame rails so I had to massage it. Also the top of the tunnel needed so be relieved to make the tank fit lower. I had to quit when my tennis elbow started acting up. Next time I'll bring the kid to do the hammer work. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C08%5Cbikepics-2425750-800.jpg More later, John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/09/12 at 21:36:06 Here's some more information. The Ryca modded tank sits much lower on the frame. The gas tank normally has a bit of clearance above the frame backbone. When you try to drop it down you soon realize that the round tunnel won't go over the square frame tube. In order to drop the tank you have to cut the tunnel so it is rectangular and then patch the sides and top in with new metal. See this detail of a Ryca tank showing the squared off tunnel and welded insert. The angle of the photo makes it look as though the opening is wider at the bottom but it is a parallel cut. The tunnel is not very long fore and aft because there is a BIG HOLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TANK for the speedometer. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C09%5Cbikepics-2426488-200.jpg The size of the frame tube is about 1 3/8 inches square. I figure a quarter inch on each side so make the opening 2 inches wide. Box in some 18 ga sheet metal to close up the opening. I propose to form the u shaped channel over the frame rail, leaving a 1/4 inch gap on either side. Then I'll cut the tank to fit the channel. The frame backbone slants down from the front. If I make so that the top of the tunnel fairs into the tank about 6-8 inches back it should work. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C09%5Cbikepics-2426487-200.jpg I'm open to suggestions. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by Cavi Mike on 07/13/12 at 23:31:38 Wait a second, which tank are you working on? The GS tank or the stock LS tank? That sure looks like a sketch of the LS tank but I thought this was a about the GS tank. I'm about ---><--- that close to buying a GS tank because I got the impression it fits well on our odd-shaped frame. I figure I'll have to cut the donuts off as well but I can just weld them back on wherever I darn well please, I don't trust my skills on a tank though. |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/14/12 at 01:24:23 If you look at the first post in this thread you will see the difference between the tanks. The GS tank is more "oval" shaped and the LS tank is more of a sideways teardrop. I'm not going to destroy the good stock tank but will cut up the junkyard GS one. BTW, from my certified accurate measurement of 3 gallons the specs say it's from a GS250, not a GS450 or GS400 or some larger bike, if that means anything. Sorry, I don't have the length off hand. It came with plastic extensions on the front, probably to cover the frame. I think any tank you get will have to be modified at the front to fit the tunnel, unless you want it to sit high like the stock tank. Even though this will be as much work at least as the Ryca mod the end result hopefully will yield a skinnier tank without an extra hole in the top. I doubt that one can make the GS tank as sleek in profile (side) view as the Ryca tank because it isn't as flat on the top near the rear as the LS tank. Again, see the first post. Got the welder lined up. Now to do some cuttin; and bendin' of metal. I've got a die grinder, angle grinder, sabre saw, sawzall and lots of hammers. No hot wrench, tho. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by Cavi Mike on 07/14/12 at 01:53:00 Even between trim models of the 550 they seem to be different. The one I found is almost a cross between the two in this thread but I'm almost certain it will "fit" where I'm trying to put it. Anyways, I put the hammer down and picked this one up. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251096124744 If it's no good, I'm only out $43. |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/17/12 at 00:18:47 Here's the latest. Mikey and I went to work on the tank with our hammer selection. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C17%5Cbikepics-2429812-800.jpg Here's the results: http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C17%5Cbikepics-2429814-800.jpg http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C17%5Cbikepics-2429813-800.jpg As you can see, we destroyed the petcock mounting in our quest to make the tank fit over the rails in the back. Here's how it looks on the bike: http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C17%5Cbikepics-2429815-800.jpg http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C17%5Cbikepics-2429816-800.jpg We decided that it needed to be dropped lower in the front, settled on 1 1/2 inches. The width of the cut will be 1 7/8th. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C17%5Cbikepics-2429820-800.jpg To thin out the profile view there needs to be a cut taken off the bottom. This is almost parallel to the bottom of the tank. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C17%5Cbikepics-2429821-800.jpg The stock Savage tank is much higher in the front and also thinner in the back. When the Ryca mod the cut is pie shaped and the result is rather like a turtle in the side view. The GS250 tank is thicker in the back because of the top curve which is not as "flat" as the Savage item. This meant that we need to drop the rear on the frame lower than the Ryca tank sits. I think that the seat will have to have a thicker pad in the front to match the tank. Here's a view from the top. Much more like a proper cafe or dirt bike look than the Savage cruiser tank provides. http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C07%5C17%5Cbikepics-2429817-800.jpg What do youse guys think? John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by ToesNose on 07/17/12 at 04:49:39 Very cool John, thanks for keeping us in the loop! ;) |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by Cavi Mike on 07/18/12 at 05:01:07 Holy crap. What's that hold now, about a gallon? hahaha |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 07/18/12 at 08:46:22 Actually I think it will still hold enough to go to the local biker hangout and back. Not going to be entering into the Cannonball Baker run. You can't have a skinny tank and still have good range. Hey this is gonna be a poseur bike ridden by an old guy or a kid with no racing experience; we ain't going far. BTW, what thickness metal would be good for the filler pieces? I'm not too familiar with gas tank construction standard practice. Can't be too thick or my HF 18 inch brake would, er break. Just can't help buying those cheap tools. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 02/25/13 at 01:47:47 It's been a while but we finally got back to work on the tank. Welded up the tunnel so it sits lower on the frame. I also made a rear bracket mount. You can see in the photo the original location of the petcock which would not work anymore because of all the metal banging we did on the tank. I put a plate over the old location. Then I made up new mounting plates for the Raptor petcock. On one plate I installed a couple of 1/4-20 rivnuts. This went on first, next to the tank. Then I made up another plate to go over it that had clearance holes for the rivnuts. I soldered both plates to the tank. There should be a flat surface for the petcock gasket to sit on. To prevent leaks, I covered the whole mess with JB Weld and filed it smooth. John in Kalifornia http://p1.bikepics.com/2013%5C02%5C25%5Cbikepics-2521050-full.jpg http://p1.bikepics.com/2013%5C02%5C25%5Cbikepics-2521049-full.jpg |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by WD on 02/26/13 at 11:04:21 Way too much like work for me. Good on you though. I think my next tank will be off an old Honda ATC (3 wheeler). With my 2 toning done, the tank I was running looks puny. Really want to run my 4.75 gallon Mustang tank, but I'm way too lazy to stretch the frame at least 6" for it to fit. Factory front mounts were cut off my frame years ago, should have kept them and just put a CL tank on... |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by strang on 02/26/13 at 14:09:37 With the main issue being the square frame - has anyone checked out old brit tanks: enfield, triumph, bsa? they are pretty large tunnel and squarish as well if I remember. |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by WD on 02/26/13 at 22:17:10 All of the popular models are too long. I test fit: Bonneville tanks from T120C-T150, BSA A10 and A65, a couple different Norton tanks, even Brough and Vincent tanks (worked at a bike shop with attached wrecking yard and salvage parts). Even Jawa and CZ tanks are too long. Not only is the frame backbone square, it is short. Harley XL tanks are technically too long unless you get the ones that take through bolts into the tank base. And even they sit way past the frame split. Other common tanks that are too big: HD Big Twins (any), Indian Chief and Sport Scout, Kawasaki VNs bigger than the 750, Suzuki VS and VL, most Honda CB/CL/VT, most Kawi KZ, most Suzuki GS, most Yamaha newer than the old D whatever 2 strokes. You can make anything fit with enough modifications, I'm just too lazy to do the work anymore. ;) |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by teabowl13 on 02/27/13 at 07:03:10 6774300 wrote:
Seems to me that would be true if you weren't planning to change anything else about a stock bike; such as the seat/seatpan. In John's case here, like most of the RYCA bikes and similar builds such as mine, everything from the tank going back is going to be brand new, so the extra tank length is easily accounted for according to how you redesign the rear part of the frame along with the seat and so on. WD is right; NOTHING is an easy fit. That's why John is having to do so much re-building on the underside of his tank. The guy who started my build decided to cut up and re-weld the frame instead of messing with the tank; that has caused a whole other mess of headaches. I've even had to replace my stock carb with a VM36 from Lancer to make space for the frame mods that he made. It's a PITA. :-X I don't like the way the RYCA tank looks when it's chopped down, but honestly as far as their kit concept goes, it makes total sense; every Savage comes with one! So it's a lot easier to modify the original than to find a source of brand new tanks that work. By the way, JOHN, the bike looks outstanding so far! That's a hell of a lot of work you're doing just to make that tank fit, but I can tell it's going to be worth it. Cheers! |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 02/27/13 at 10:39:59 The RYCA tank sits above the frame in the rear. There is a discontinuity between the bottom of the tank and the bottom of the seat. I think it looks better when the seat and the tank bottoms are on the same plane, so to speak. We were going to cut off the bottom of the blue mod tank like Ryca does but my bro didn't think he was up to the welding. Also, if we did that then the tank wouldn't sit low enough. As you can see, a lot of work was done to sink it down as far as we did. Look at the Ryca Street Tracker and compare it to my build. You can see what I mean by aligning the bottoms of the tank and seat. My tank sits so low that it will have to be removed to change the spark plug. Not too practical but I figure once the carb mixture is set won't have much reason to pull the plug. John in Kalifornia http://p1.bikepics.com/2013%5C02%5C27%5Cbikepics-2521916-full.jpg http://p1.bikepics.com/2013%5C02%5C27%5Cbikepics-2521914-full.jpg |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by strang on 02/28/13 at 12:21:49 Drove past a Suzuki TU250 today (really like this bike, if it had more grunt I'd be riding one) and had a look at the tank. What do you know, it's got a square frame and all. Quite short tank as well. Might be a candidate? Will try and measure it's length next time I drive past it (it's on my Thursday commute). My posts are not trying to take anything away from the amazing work John and others are doing to tanks - they will end up with something truly unique. I would just like to come up with a simpler generic solution that involved a bit of adjusting and not remodeling the whole tank/seat. John and others have got the skills - I know if I do this it will be total thingy up. :P |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 02/28/13 at 19:32:18 Wow, have you got me wrong! I have minimal metalworking skills. My main tools are a BFH and an angle grinder. Managed to set my sweatshirt on fire last week with the sparks from the grinder, and then caught it in the wire brush chucked in the electric drill. That tank tunnel cutout wasn't my idea; I copied the Ryca mod. It was a real challenge to bend the tunnel with a cheap HF brake clamped to the bench. In the sixties when I went to junior and senior high school there was a big push for college prep courses to educate future engineers to fight the commies, a response to the Sputnik scare. I would have rather taken shop classes like those that my brother did, than all that math, science creative writing, etc. that I had to endure. Consequently, my shop skills are rather lacking. Perseverance and common sense make up for lack of skill sometimes, though I have never been accused of having an abundance of the latter. I think this tank will work out but I still think it is too big for the Street Tracker look. Fiberglass tanks are out because of the problems with reformulated gasoline used here in Kalifornia. The search is still on for aproper sized tank that will fit over the frame. Modifying the frame, as has been pointed out just creates more problems. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by singlesgoinsteady on 03/16/13 at 11:54:22 Love the look of your tracker. What are you doing to keep the chain from wearing on the swingarm? I tried it, but, without a rubstrip it grinds in right away on the top of the swingarm and on the bottom of the Ryca rearset bracket. If you tighten the chain too much you'll tear up the drive shaft bearings. I'd love to go to a chain, I have not come up with a good way to attach a rub strip on the top of the swingarm. to keep a loose chain from slapping. I think it needs a chain tensioner too. Cheers -Dave |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by John in Kalifornia on 03/16/13 at 21:04:17 I ordered a strip of plastic from McMaster Carr as a rub strip. Don't remember what it was only that it was black. Something like UHMW nylon or Teflon type stuff. It's somewhere in the garage. I went to big sprockets at both front and rear because of the chain rub problem. 18/49 I think. Haven't tried to adjust the chain and then see how much it would rub. Way I figure it, with my 250 or so pounds sitting on the bike the swing arm won't be spending much time in the down unloaded position anyway. The static unloaded angle when nobody is on the bike isn't a good indication of real world riding conditions. Now, if I were to be riding off road over jumps, etc. the story might be different. Haven't looked into this yet. BTW, the 18 tooth front sprocket does fit and there is no clearance problem. Think I have a 530-size chain. John in Kalifornia |
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Title: Re: Gas Tank Mod Post by Super Thumper on 03/17/13 at 10:00:44 Just like my comic books...I look at the pictures first and the words come later ;D |
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