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Message started by splash07 on 07/04/12 at 14:13:18

Title: bolt extraction,
Post by splash07 on 07/04/12 at 14:13:18

So, I twisted off the rear most bolt that holds on the sprocket cover. Then I drilled it out, and tried using a screw sxtractor to get it out, even sprayed some PB blaster on it. The screw esctractor twisted off flush with the case.....aweseome. Help!!!!!!!!!!!

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac30/splash07s/eadb1f91.jpg

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by rfw2003 on 07/04/12 at 14:18:27

I feel your pain, Don't have any advise to give ya since it broke off flush. So far I've been lucky that when I had an extractor break off I was able to get ahold of it with vise grips. Those things are pretty much impossible to drill. You can try a left hand twist drill bit, but as I said, they are almost impossible to drill.

R.F.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 07/04/12 at 15:23:15

If you have access to a welder, preferably a mig, & it is broken off flush, you might be able to weld a nut to it. It's pretty much a 2 person job, someone to hold the nut against it with pliers or vice grips while the other does the welding. Usually the heat from welding will help break the bolt loose & it will come right out. :)

I've used this technique to get broken exhaust bolts out of car cylinder heads, both cast iron & aluminum. It has worked in places so tight there was no room to drill. 8-)

This is the kind of crap I have to deal with all the time. :( :o

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by Paraquat on 07/04/12 at 15:25:36

What he said. They're hard as Hell and will not like to drill.

--Steve

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by verslagen1 on 07/04/12 at 15:32:56

Yep, you up sh!t creek, you've lost your paddle, and the dingy has sprung a leak. go for the professional help as said above if you really want it fixed like new. otherwise, time to find out if 3 are really necessary. :-?

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by splash07 on 07/04/12 at 15:42:50

what the hell, it will twist off but wont drill? guess I am going to see if I can get by with two. We shall see.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by verslagen1 on 07/04/12 at 15:51:06

7E7D616C7E653D3A0D0 wrote:

what the hell, it will twist off but wont drill? guess I am going to see if I can get by with two. We shall see.

they're super hard, that makes them super brittle.
when ever you use them, use a 2 handled handle and don't bend them.
you might try a carbide drill.
And the other thought, can you drill from the back side?

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by splash07 on 07/04/12 at 16:13:23

Cant drill from the back without removing the engine. I am afraid that even with a carbide bit it will slip and drill into the soft aluminum instead. I think I am going to have to live witrh this one.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 07/04/12 at 16:19:34

It's situations like this one of those little Harbor Freight migs comes in handy. With flux core wire you can take the shield off & get right in tight spots like welding a nut to a stud. 8-)

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/04/12 at 16:52:27

JUst how did you come to be in such a spot? Best to study how you got here now, its obvious somethng went wrong. Avoiding it in the future would be good, No?

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by Serowbot on 07/04/12 at 22:45:12

Not sayin' it would work,... but, I'd dremel or hacksaw a slot, across the bolt and the pedestal... then, use an impact wrench with a common bit to try to remove... if that failed... grind away enough of the pedestal to get a bite on the bolt with vise grips and pull the bolt... Then add a washer or two to install the new bolt...
... but.. I can't use a welder for sheeitt... so my ideas are limited.... ;D...

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by Cavi Mike on 07/04/12 at 23:13:14

Yup, welder is needed here. I would try the nut method but I suggest a wire-feed(mig or flux-core) welder over a tig. You'll never get any heat on that trying to reach through the hole of a nut with a tig.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by splash07 on 07/05/12 at 07:58:27

544B4D4A5750615161594B470C3E0 wrote:

JUst how did you come to be in such a spot? Best to study how you got here now, its obvious somethng went wrong. Avoiding it in the future would be good, No?

Yes, prevention is the best maintenance, however, I have no idea how I got in this situation. I was actually trying to remove the bolt when it broke, so I guess I put it in too tight to begin with.

So I might try the slot idea, if i could get a slot started then I might be able to at least get the extractor out then I can finish drilling out the bolt and re-tap the hole for a new bolt, maybe will have to go a size up. I am pretty bad at welding and really dont want to spend a bunch of money on tools I will never really use. If the slot idea does not work then I am going to live with it until the next time the motor gets pulled then just take it to a machine shop and let a "real" mechanic fix her up.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by engineer on 07/05/12 at 09:17:41

Many years ago some old millwrights showed me a trick to remove broken bolts, taps etc. which still works quite well. You get a small cold chisel and either use the corner or grind it fit the situation. You then find an irregularity in the broken bolt or whatever near the outside edge where the point of the chisel will dig in. You then gently and carefully start tapping the chisel with a small ball peen hammer in a counter-clockwise direction and if you are lucky and skilled you can rotate the thing out of there , one little tap at a time, far enough to get a grip on it and remove it the rest of the way.

I've done it or seen it done several hundred times on bolts and taps that were broken off flush. It works amazingly well once you get the hang of it. You will need good light and maybe some reading glasses if you can't see the broken surface in good detail. Sometimes the chisel will cut out the place it dug into, before that happens switch to a small straight punch or regrind the chisel.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/12 at 10:05:41

Looks to me like the drill was off center & the Eze OUt in in the threads. Its not coming out.
IF that thing is in the threads at all, if the peaks & valleys of the interlocked threads had the drill invade them at all & that eze out is in there at all, its not turning,,Since its in aluminum, you cantheat it up, What you can do is grind it down & have someone weld a nut on it. Then youd have female threads to run into.

Eze outs are not well named & often take a bad situation & make it worse,

Removing a broken bolt requires technique, & developing that technique is painful. The Eze out isnt the first thing to go for. & before a drill gets put on the dutchman, the surface has to be readied. A centerpunch, OHHH to the CENTER is crucial. This is the basis for succeeding. Off center drilling on a dutchman is the first step to failure,

Avoiding this problem is much easier than fixing it. Antisieze is your friend. Remember these bolts arent the finest & overtightening has negative results..The technique, how the ratchet or wrench is held, what you feel for, is learned thru trial & error. Its not impossible to learn if someone will try to describe it. I think Ive described it well a few times & frankly, Im tired of typing it, maybe someone will drag it up or maybe no one thot it was worth reading,,
I feel pretty confident that my technique is good, because I remember twisting things off years ago.& since its been so many years since I had one bite me, Ive got to believe Ive changed, So, either threaded things have all improved, or I already wrecked all the weak stuff, OR, Ive learned to work with threaded connectors without causing problems,,Im gonna say the years of experience have taught me how to feel for a thread coming tight or getting ready to let go,
One thing is certain, blindly cranking on a bolt & not paying attention to every bit of feedback its giving you will bite you in the butt,,

All that said, anyone can encounter a weak casting or lousy bolt & get bit, theres no guarantee that paying attention will save yer butt every time, but not paying attention will get ya one day.. fer sure..

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by serenity3743 on 07/05/12 at 11:21:49

382E39243C29243F4B0 wrote:

This is always my FIRST step whenever I have a twisted-off bolt-head. I hate screw extractors 'cause the bastards always break and don't move the bolt at all; probably because it is next to impossible to get them perfectly centered. But I have used the method proposed by Serowbot many times, always with success.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by Cavi Mike on 07/05/12 at 11:23:11

7B7972797079756F1C0 wrote:

That only works if the bolt is free to spin - typically when the bolt breaks when tightening the bolt not loosening it. A chisel or punch in this scenario will only cause damage and net you a much worse situation.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/12 at 11:30:19

& eze outs drive into a hollowed out bolt & spread it into the threads,, really not the best thing to do,

Left hand drill bits & then, if you take a pin punch & cut the tip down to make a scoop, you can cut the dutchman out, Ive built them to work on pipe, big enough to get in & work. Where that is? I dont see it working, but for another location, its something to keep in the back of your mind,

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by splash07 on 07/05/12 at 12:11:01

well I dont consider myself an experienced wrencher, I have only been wrenching for about 14 years and still feel like a newb. I have broken my fare share of bolts and extracted many of them successfully. Done about 4 in the head of this same motor in fact. But this one particular bolt was not giving any feedback. I didnt notice irregular tightening when I put it in and it seemed to be coming out OK until......snap! I actually was able to get it to turn about 1.5 times before she sheered off, maybe that was the bolt twisting in place though.

I agree mike, I dont think the chisel method will work here. If I could not get this thing to budge with the vise grips first (at first the bolt had about a cm sticking out of the case, until I put vise grips to that and sheered it off the rest of the way flush), then the extractor broke. I doubt it will turn with the chisel.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by RidgeRunner13 on 07/05/12 at 13:00:25

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n94/Pappygt13/Tools009.jpg

As you can see from this picture, I have many ways of persuading mangled bolts, nuts, & screws to cooperate. For what you were doing, the set in the black box w/ yellow background would have been my first option. But you lost that when you drilled it. If those failed , then I would have tried my left hand drill bits. The extractors would have left you a good center to start from. ;)

If it broke because it is seized in the aluminum, the heat from welding a nut on, followed by some PB Blaster penetrating oil would probably have the best chance of getting it out. That would concentrate the heat in the steel expanding in the aluminum & breaking the corrosion, allowing the penetrant to do its' job. 8-)

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by splash07 on 07/05/12 at 13:20:34

I didnt try any heat but I did use a little PB blaster once the original bolt had been drilled all the way through. obviously it did not help much.

I will try the slot technique then let y'all know. With pics of course!

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/12 at 13:20:47

If that blasted eze out wasnt in there, you could just drill & tap,, The only way I see to go forward w/o making a real engineering project out of it is grind that thing down & get a nut welded on it.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by splash07 on 07/05/12 at 13:24:24

716E686F72754474447C6E62291B0 wrote:

And that may be the answer, its definitely the only thing I can think of if the extractor wont come out. I plan to slot the end with a dremel then try and unscrew the extractor in a clockwise direction. When I was trying the extractor at first it seemed to come loose easily when turned clockwise even after hammering it in snuggly. If I can get it out then I can finish drilling and tapping.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/12 at 13:36:53

Certainly that would be The best answer at this point,That would be worth investing quite a bit of time in.,Theres a few things you mite try if it doesnt want to play ball,
Theres a little propane powered soldering torch for about $10.00 at Lowes. You mite take the soldering tip off & just expose the flame & heat that eze out up some, then squirt water ( some spray bottles adjust to make a squirtgun type stream) on the eze out. That mite make it want to come out, squirts some penetrating oil in there & tap on the lug. The vibration may tend to walk the eze out, out, Thers a few ways to go at it, I hope thats a tapered eze out, If it is, I expect youll win.,

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by splash07 on 07/05/12 at 13:54:50

its tapered and I hope I win, I like to win. :D

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by Trippah on 07/05/12 at 14:22:01

Two years back when I broke off the header bolt etc, I found a shop that does EDM work. I lucked out as they charged me next to nothing and used it for training experience for youg lad learining the business. The previous quotes were for a couple hundred + dollars. Best of luck.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/12 at 15:49:17

You know,, a 1/16the bit run between the OOOze out & the dutchman in a few places just mite make it let go if you cant make it turn loose any other way.,Mite wanna get a few of them,, there pretty wimpy & sharpening such a small bit is about impossible, .

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by Cavi Mike on 07/05/12 at 19:28:00

What is this "dutchman " thing you keep referring to? Is that a brand-name that you're using as a generic term?

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/05/12 at 19:35:45

A dutchman is any broken off threaded part that is being boneheaded about moving, Seems to be a term used in lots of places

bigtoe
Always Different !

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: West Indies
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Done that and repaired it just fine.
Your saving grace is the fact that the broken piece, "dutchman", did not bottom out in the hole, the thread therefore is not loaded on the flanks.

Make a little BRASS dowell that will fall into the hole above the dutchman. The center of the brass piece has to have a hole about 1/8 inch or say 2mm drilled through it.
The idea is to use the brass piece as a guide for a drill (1/8 or 2mm) bit to not damage the threads in the hole.
Drill a hole in the dutchman about 1/4in deep. Then use a Tool Steel Extractor and wind it out. Piece of cake and a rag with a good helping of grease to catch the drillings save you from having to wash the head out.

I have done this, ONCE, now I just hate those bolts. Been looking for a Stud Kit for that very reason.
The fix is easy, the cure is the stud kit. Interested peoples, we need to find this and make it available.
__________________

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by rokrover on 07/07/12 at 14:55:20

+1 on Trippah's EDM (Electrical Discharge Machining) suggestion. Back in the day we called it Spark Erosion and it was the only way I got a sheared manifold bolt out of an aluminum head. Might be hard to find a shop doing it these days in our hollowed-out economy!

I can't remember if those cover bolts are stainless but I learned early on stainless causes electrolytic aluminum corrosion. Not what you'd intuitively expect. As a preventive measure I now always smear a bead of of anti-seize moly grease on any thread going into aluminum.

Good luck!

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by Dave on 07/08/12 at 03:55:04

I had an easy out break while working on a lawnmower with an aluminum block a while back. It seems the aluminum and the bolt corroded and became one.

I was able to use a Dremel with a small chainsaw sharpening bit and gradually grind the easy out away. It took a long while - but it did work. I then carefully ground away at the bolt until it was just a thin shell, and then used a small chisel and ice pick and collapsed the bolt away from the aluminum block. I then ran a tap in to clean up the threads.

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/08/12 at 07:21:05

and then used a small chisel and ice pick and collapsed the bolt away from the aluminum block.

Yep, thats what I was trying to get people to thnk about, I grind a Gouge in a punch, so that if you used it on wood it would cut the side out of a stick, I need to take pics, no way I can describe it right,

Title: Re: bolt extraction,
Post by Digger on 07/31/12 at 20:35:49

FWIW, Norm Keller puts on the best clinic about this particular type of problem that I've ever seen:

http://www.my-mc.com/messages/1/121414.html

IHTH!