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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> [SOLVED] No Mid-Range Throttle /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1340211361 Message started by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 09:56:01 |
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Title: [SOLVED] No Mid-Range Throttle Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 09:56:01 First off, hello! I've been reading around the forums for a couple of weeks now, since I bought my savage, and I have found a wealth of information and a very helpful community! I was very glad to see this! I bought a 2003 Savage with ~10k miles on it a few weeks ago and have come across a few issues I would like to discuss with everyone, see if I can't find a solution! I found this post; [Link in next post] ...which sounds about like my issue. The bike starts and idles fine, but when I apply the choke, the bike dies. This is not a big deal as the bike starts and the engine sounds strong, I only bring it up because it sounds like the issue the guy in the linked post was having. My MAIN issue is that after 1/4+ throttle is applied I almost completely lose acceleration and power. The engine will rev very high if I keep twisting the throttle but the bike does very little to get moving. The only way I can REALLY get the bike to accelerate without any problem is if I move through the gears slowly with the throttle only applied at about 1/4 open until it get s up to speed. The post I linked mentioned the improperly set diaphragm in the carb, in fact, most of his post sounds exactly like my issue. I was curious if there were any other thoughts, ideas, or advice. I am in Albuquerque, NM, so I am in a very high and dry climate. Thanks in advance! Let me know if I can provide any other details! |
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Title: Re: Dies When Choke Applied - No Mid-Range Throttl Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 09:56:14 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1309656274 |
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Title: Re: Dies When Choke Applied - No Mid-Range Throttl Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/20/12 at 10:09:36 Look up Serowbots Petcock troubleshooting Consider a good carb cleaning, could be a vacuum issue, could be a sticky slide, or both, Could be crap in the carb, too I guess.. The age/miles say it sat a lot,, |
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Title: Re: Dies When Choke Applied - No Mid-Range Throttl Post by Serowbot on 06/20/12 at 10:13:48 Quote:
If it will rev really high, but won't go... it's not a carb issue... it's the clutch... Check that the cable adjustment isn't too tight... if that's okay, you've got clutch problems... |
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Title: Re: Dies When Choke Applied - No Mid-Range Throttl Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 10:22:32 4F5056514C4B7A4A7A42505C17250 wrote:
True, it does seem to have sat for quite some time, the big pain I have at this point are the soft screws in the carb I have come across so far. Slow, deliberate turning and I started to bite into the screws and could have stripped them if I kept turning. Any tips for getting those screws out? 5543544951444952260 wrote:
I had also considered this, I am going to try loosening up the clutch cable some to see if the clutch needs to settle more but the odd part is that I only lose power and acceleration after the first 1/4 of the throttle. From closed to 1/4 or so it accelerates and has decent power response. I'll let you know what I find when I loosen the cable up some to see if it needs to travel more. --- Thanks again for the help! |
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Title: Re: Dies When Choke Applied - No Mid-Range Throttl Post by youzguyz on 06/20/12 at 10:31:24 431C1C5B431B421C5D2F0 wrote:
Impact driver, best fitting phillips head you can find (JAS if possible).. and BLAP.. out they go! If they strip with that treatment, they were going to strip anyway. Use vice grips. And replace with allen head screws in any case. |
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Title: Re: Dies When Choke Applied - No Mid-Range Throttl Post by clearush on 06/20/12 at 10:57:21 2F7070372F772E7031430 wrote:
pb blaster soaking before hand helps, a vice to hold the carb still helps also. and replace them as already mentioned. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/20/12 at 11:33:28 If youll take a #2 Phillips & grind the tip down till the X fits in the slots, youll be ahead. Or, find a JIS tip. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by verslagen1 on 06/20/12 at 11:40:07 check your vac line for gas or the sewrowbots petcock check. a good going over of the carb, get it clean, and together correctly. you're a mile high which is about the only place stock jetting works, so take that into consideration when you have it apart. apply the penetrating oil, vice grips on the head if you strip 'em. and replace with good stuff. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by Cavi Mike on 06/20/12 at 12:36:20 I need more information. Some of the stuff you've said is very confusing. When you say the "engine revs very high" do you mean it revs when the bike is sitting still like when it's in neutral or when the the clutch is pulled? Or do you mean it revs really high when you're moving but the bike isn't accelerating? Also, when you say it dies when you choke the bike, is this when the bike is warm or cold? The choke should never be pulled when the engine is warm, it will allow far too much fuel into the engine causing it to run rich and stall. If the bike will only run when the choke is pulled, this means the bike is running off the choke. The choke on this type of carb isn't actually a choke, it's an "enrichment." Basically, it's a separate carb that runs really rich. I have a feeling this is simply carb related and that you just need to clean the carb. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 13:12:37 Thanks for all the tips on getting the screws out, I'll let you guys know how that goes. I bet the carb needs a good cleaning. 72617677686563616A35040 wrote:
After checking the clutch cable, the petcock is next in line, gonna make sure it's nice and clean and working correctly. Thanks for the heads-up on the jetting for my altitude. Start simple, right? lol! 4664736C486C6E60050 wrote:
It idles fine, but when I put it into gear, let the clutch out and begin to move as soon as I pass about 1/4 throttle open and the clutch is all the way out the bike accelerates very slowly and no matter how far I turn out the throttle it does not move or respond any faster just simply revs the engine higher. It does still accelerate but at a slower rate than it does in the first 1/4 of the throttle. With the choke, as it's very hot around here right now I assume that the bike is dying due to the exact reason you are stating, it is running too rich and stalling out. Hope this helps and makes sense! --- Thanks again, everyone! |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by Serowbot on 06/20/12 at 13:17:35 You might also check that your wheels are turning freely... No sticky wheel bearings or brakes... Front brake will have a slight audible drag, that's okay... but it should turn freely... |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 13:25:36 1204130E16030E15610 wrote:
Will do, I had read that about making sure your brakes were free and not causing a lack of acceleration and had totally forgot to test it out. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/20/12 at 13:28:14 It does still accelerate but at a slower rate than it does in the first 1/4 of the throttle. As throttle opens vacuum is used. Id check the vac line, Dont go messin with the petcock, just do the Serowbot Petcock test. If the vac line isnt the problem, ( easiest proof is replace it), Id bet the slide is sticking, clean the carb up & No OIl or even fingerprints on the slide. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 13:32:49 332C2A2D30370636063E2C206B590 wrote:
Now, with the vac line, I should be able to turn the petcock to on and pinch the vac line causing the engine to idle higher until it dies, yes? Should I just pull it off and look through it? Or am I confusing this with another test method, lol? It's very possible, I've done a LOT of reading lately! EDIT: Also, if the vac line is the issue would switching to Primary correct my lagging acceleration? |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by bill67 on 06/20/12 at 13:37:07 Did you try Sea Foam. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by Serowbot on 06/20/12 at 13:42:00 3D36333369685F0 wrote:
... on some toast... it's quite delicious... :-?... |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/20/12 at 13:43:01 Eaux,, quite, if I do say so myself.. Use your best British accent. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 13:51:06 505B5E5E0405320 wrote:
LOL! I was JUST reading this thread; http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1340175233 Justin; Was that response to me? lol! I will say that switching to Primary yields the same results as the On position. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by rfw2003 on 06/20/12 at 13:56:00 613E3E796139603E7F0D0 wrote:
From what you described here, the problem is most definitely clutch slippage. When you are in gear and you throttle up and the engine revs but the bike doesn't respond, you clutch is definitely slipping. The reason it isn't slipping at lower throttle is because your not applying as much power and torque. What Oil are you using in your bike? Hopefully a JASO approved oil or motorcycle oil and not normal Automotive engine oil as automotive engine oils will not work with a wet clutch system and cause them to slip like crazy after they soak into the friction pads. If adjusting the clutch didn't help the issue looks like it may be time for a clutch job. R.F. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 14:10:11 27332267656566550 wrote:
From what you described here, the problem is most definitely clutch slippage. When you are in gear and you throttle up and the engine revs but the bike doesn't respond, you clutch is definitely slipping. The reason it isn't slipping at lower throttle is because your not applying as much power and torque. What Oil are you using in your bike? Hopefully a JASO approved oil or motorcycle oil and not normal Automotive engine oil as automotive engine oils will not work with a wet clutch system and cause them to slip like crazy after they soak into the friction pads. If adjusting the clutch didn't help the issue looks like it may be time for a clutch job. R.F.[/quote] I have not changed the oil yet, I've only put on about 60 miles on the bike since I got it, mostly because of how poorly it is riding right now. I will change the oil, and on my previous bikes I've always gone with a synthetic (something like a 20w-50 or 10w-40 mobil 1, etc.) due to the temps around here. It's almost 100f today. I hadn't even thought about what type of oil had been used on the bike for it's last change. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/20/12 at 14:29:46 If youre talking about the thing Not Accelerating as RPM climb, yes, its oil. Dont spend a lot of $$$ on it, Get some Rotella T & slap in it. Use that to flush it. If you get a gallon of Rotella 15-40, you can change the oil & filter one time, then, in a few hundred miles, dump the oil, keep the filter & all the slimy crap will be Dang Near Gone, it wont bother you any more,. YOu can save $$ & not suffer cost/loss by using Rotella, Just my opinion, |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 14:43:53 As I stated above, learned from you guys, go with simple first, so I will definitely be taking these steps with the oil first. I will do that this evening or in the next day or so and let you guys know my results after riding it around and changing the oil again. --- Once again, thanks for all the help and advice, folks! I really appreciate it! |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/20/12 at 15:02:24 Is that whats happening? Youre accelerating & the RPM climb but the speed doesnt feel like its climbing with the RPM? |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/20/12 at 15:21:57 6E7177706D6A5B6B5B63717D36040 wrote:
Yeah, that's what's happening. In the first bit of throttle it seems fine but once I get over 1/4 or so open on the throttle the RPMs climb but the bike seems to stop accelerating at the same rate it was at first. It certainly is NOT speeding up with the RPMs as it should be. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/20/12 at 15:40:35 Okay, sounds like a case of friction modifier poisoning of the clutch. Good catch, whoever caught that.. Yea, dont waste $$ on it, go with a low buck oil( not a synthetic) like Rotella T 15-40, & flush it., |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by bill67 on 06/20/12 at 15:59:10 Put some Sea Foam in the oil and run it it will clean the clutch,Then don't use cheap oil use a good motorcycle oil made for motorcycles. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/20/12 at 16:30:53 Rotella isnt a "cheap" oil, its a reasonably priced, high quality oil,sufficient to keep high compression diesel engines alive for a million miles., keep on with it, Bill. Tiresome is becoming of you., I was talking about it being cheap compared to a synth, which I think I stated in a post,.but you would have missed that little detail. |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/21/12 at 19:42:34 You folks are fantastic! I wanna say thanks to EVERYONE who helped me out and offered their advice! Serow, RF, and Justin; thank you for getting my head out of the carb and back where it should have been! I swapped out the oil and flushed it with a few quarts of Rotella then filled her up. I gave the clutch cable some slack. I took off from 0 - 60 in seconds. I mean the bike seems to be 100% at this point, I am simply amazed, THIS is the light, fast cruiser I had been reading about when I bought this one. Thanks again everyone! |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by Serowbot on 06/21/12 at 20:00:07 Yer' welcome, 33... By the way,.. that's your official abbreviated Savage name here, if you're gonna' hang around... To heck if I'm gonna' type l33tl4m3r every time I wanna' say hi... :-?... |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by rfw2003 on 06/21/12 at 20:10:37 You are very welcome. :) |
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Title: Re: No Mid-Range Throttle - Dies When Choke Applie Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/21/12 at 20:19:33 5C4A5D40584D405B2F0 wrote:
LOL! Fair enough! And yeah, I am gonna stick around, got some karma to repay and a LOT to learn! |
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Title: Re: [SOLVED] No Mid-Range Throttle Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/21/12 at 21:32:03 Hey,, I shoulda had your answer a day before,, but, a win is a win,, I dont remember who it was who put the clues out so well,, thats who gets the most credit from me, |
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Title: Re: [SOLVED] No Mid-Range Throttle Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/21/12 at 22:28:58 081711160B0C3D0D3D05171B50620 wrote:
Totally, man! You, Serow, and RF all pointed me to the oil and the clutch. Thanks again for getting my head out of the carb! |
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Title: Re: [SOLVED] No Mid-Range Throttle Post by Serowbot on 06/21/12 at 22:49:36 623D3D7A623A633D7C0E0 wrote:
.. and you thought your helmet was tight... ;D... |
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Title: Re: [SOLVED] No Mid-Range Throttle Post by rfw2003 on 06/21/12 at 23:03:43 3B242225383F0E3E0E36242863510 wrote:
That would be your neighbor in the next county me. :) well me and Serow. I pulled the quotes from his posts that pointed towards the clutch slippage and possible oil contamination, but I can't take all the credit here as it was stuff I learned from all the veterans here. Until I found this forum after laying my hands on my 96' savage I had forgotten that wet clutches didn't work so well with standard automotive oils. It's been over 15 years since I have been in the wind and on 2 wheels. |
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Title: Re: [SOLVED] No Mid-Range Throttle Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/21/12 at 23:43:35 6670677A62777A61150 wrote:
.. and you thought your helmet was tight... ;D... [/quote] Glad I didn't order it with the extra thick padding then! Speaking of, I have a nice chromed KBC, one they don't make anymore! I'll take some pics! 65716025272724170 wrote:
That would be your neighbor in the next county me. :) well me and Serow. I pulled the quotes from his posts that pointed towards the clutch slippage and possible oil contamination, but I can't take all the credit here as it was stuff I learned from all the veterans here. Until I found this forum after laying my hands on my 96' savage I had forgotten that wet clutches didn't work so well with standard automotive oils. It's been over 15 years since I have been in the wind and on 2 wheels.[/quote] See, and I'm a fairly new mechanic as well, owned a couple of Buell Blasts before the Savage. They are fairly maintenance free. I wanted to see what a cruiser was like, and chose the Savage. I honestly LIKE the thought of putting some wrench time in, as that, with mods, makes it feel like MY bike, not just a bike I am riding. --- I am watching the friction zone on my clutch after giving it some slack and fixing the oil issue. If I see the friction zone decreasing, and I am sure it's all in my head due to the endless problems I've had with the bike, what might cause this? Should I still do a clutch job on the bike to be safe? Thanks again! |
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Title: Re: [SOLVED] No Mid-Range Throttle Post by Cavi Mike on 06/21/12 at 23:48:18 I never would have guessed clutch from your original question, I assumed you knew what a slipping clutch sounded like. It's a pretty unmistakable circumstance. If the engine on a manual vehicle ever revs without the vehicle accelerating, that's a slipping clutch. No ifs, ands or buts, that's a slipping clutch. There is only one instance where a clutch is designed to slip under normal conditions and that is in a drag car - but I mean top-fuel or funny-car, not your mom-n-pop Mustang on Sunday's run-what-you-brung. |
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Title: Re: [SOLVED] No Mid-Range Throttle Post by l33tl4m3r on 06/21/12 at 23:59:10 537166795D797B75100 wrote:
Definitely why I like this community, Serow nailed it on the second reply. This is also a direct result of the level of care I usually give to a vehicle; I simply don't understand why the previous owner used oil not made for a bike, which is also why I never would have thought of the oil as being the problem. Which is ALSO why I was not familiar with the symptoms, lol! Now, early on, as I said in my reply after Serow and Justin first posted, I did feel like it was the clutch not disengaging but, again, as I would never foul up a vehicle with lubricant it wasn't designed for, I was too stubborn to see this easy fix, lol! |
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Title: Re: [SOLVED] No Mid-Range Throttle Post by rfw2003 on 06/22/12 at 00:41:33 6738387F673F6638790B0 wrote:
Wet clutch systems rarely wear out, They are designed to last practically forever. Once the old automotive oil has completely flushed out of the friction pads you shouldn't really have an issue anymore. The most you should have to do at a much later date would be to change the push rod that engages the pressure plate to one of the other lengths if your adjustment goes out of the acceptable range as marked on the cover. I think there has only been one person on here that has actually posted that his friction pads had actually worn down below service specs. What you will notice especially if your practicing your friction zone is that when you really heat up the clutch, it may not always totally dis-engage when you pull the clutch lever. That is when you need to stop the friction zone practice and take it for a good ride to let it all cool down. R.F. |
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