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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> YAOQ (yet another oil question) /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1339461455 Message started by 360k+ on 06/11/12 at 17:37:35 |
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Title: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by 360k+ on 06/11/12 at 17:37:35 I have two owners manuals, a 2002, and 2009, plus a service manual that covers 1987 .. 2009. In the 2002 OM it specifies that an oil change with filter requires 2.5 quarts, while for 2009 only 2.1 quarts is required. Out of curiosity I checked the service manual and it seems that bikes 1987 thru 2003 specify 2.5 quarts, and 2004 onward specify only 2.1 quarts. I just did my 7500 mile service on my 2009 and found that exactly 2 quarts put the level right between the marks. That was with a new filter replacement and running up for several minutes to allow the oil to circulate, then checking the window with the bike level. Is this typical, and did the older bikes actually have more capacity, or did they just drain better? I ask because the specification for a REBUILD is the full 2.5 quarts on ALL years. I'm almost led to believe that the newer bikes are trapping oil somewhere... perhaps in the head, or??? |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by bill67 on 06/11/12 at 18:27:53 When I drain my oil I always lean the bike over both ways to get all the oil out,Also start it and let it run a couple second to get all the oil from any place it may be hanging.2 quarts and about a cup and 1/2 bring it to the top line with a new filter.2006 bike. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/11/12 at 21:02:09 I just cant make myself start an engine w/o oil in it, even tho we recently saw one go about 12 miles, empty. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by rfw2003 on 06/11/12 at 21:46:40 584741465B5C6D5D6D55474B00320 wrote:
I'm with JOG on this. I couldn't make myself start any engine without oil in it. It goes against my nature. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/12 at 22:49:50 Can't see that a cup of dirty is worth the risk. 1st you run it dry, then start it dry... not me. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by mpescatori on 06/12/12 at 00:38:18 5A4E5F1A18181B280 wrote:
I'm with JOG on this. I couldn't make myself start any engine without oil in it. It goes against my nature. [/quote] The ONE time I tried a certain trick, it was on my old trusty Moto Guzzi. She had been sitting for a full three years, no battery, full tank of gas and with a spoonful++ of motor oil in the chambers through the plug holes. I drained the old fuel and gave the 15-16 liters to my brother :) I drained the old oil on a cold engine (wouldn't start her with 3 year old oil) and, with both spark plugs removed, gradually engaged 5th gear and pushed and shoved the bike up and down the alleyway until I had clocked a few hundred meters (say, 1/4 mile) The bike sounded like a steam train, chugging air in and out of the plug holes ! ;D I then drained her some more, put new oil and filter,and resumed the "chugga-chug" drill for another 1/4 mile. New plugs, new fuel, new battery and she started... 3rd time ! Why am I saying this ? Because I do NOT advocate running a bike (or any engine) with no oil, but turing the engine by hand (as done by vintage mechanics) or pushing the vehicle back and forth at a few dozen rpm cannot hort the engine at all... |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by bill67 on 06/12/12 at 04:34:32 Years ago a BMW dealer told me the way he did all new BMWs,Was to start them and hold them at 4000 rpm that was the best way to break them in.Now these bikes were make months before and sent from Germany so the oil would have been drained pretty good. I've always did my cars and trucks the same way(not the lean part). |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by Dave on 06/12/12 at 09:33:49 494247471D1C2B0 wrote:
There is absolutely no way I would consider running an engine without oil in it....even for a few seconds. Running the engine with no oil will put far more wear on the engine than the small amount of dirty oil mixed with the new oil will. I don't see any reason to do this.....just knowing that the engine is not getting pressurized oil while the new oil filter is getting the air purged out bothers me....but that can't be helped. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by Serowbot on 06/12/12 at 10:02:32 90% of engine wear happens in the first 30 seconds of engine start... That's why used vehicles with highway miles are good to buy... fewer starts and stops... Never buy a pizza delivery vehicle... I'd never run an engine for second without oil... After a similar discussion about a year ago,.. I've even decided to limit my use of the leaning technique.... I just do a little rock, side to side and that's enough... That BMW dealer was insane... I can't think of a worse way to break in an engine... ;D... |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by Arnold on 06/12/12 at 11:27:59 When you buy a vehicle, how do you know if the miles came from highway or pizza delivery though? |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by bill67 on 06/12/12 at 11:36:16 You don't know and you don't know if they've been using diesel oil in a gasoline engine either. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by Dave on 06/12/12 at 11:40:29 6772696A6A63726374060 wrote:
Does the inside of the car smell like stale Pizza? ;D |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by verslagen1 on 06/12/12 at 11:42:00 leaning the bike only drains the cam bath and may get the oil caught in the gaskets for the side covers. and does not drain the passage ways, so oil start immediately. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by bill67 on 06/12/12 at 11:42:25 I've read were it take 10 seconds for the oil to fully circulate in a car engine from start up so I would think a motorcycle would be the same.You know when i run the motor for a few second there is hardly any pressure on the motor,Its not like your are driving it. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by WD on 06/12/12 at 13:18:55 Warm it up, shut down, drain oil. Change oil filter, don't forget to swap the o-rings (make sure you put a bit of axle grease on them to prevent slipping out of groove, trust me, we do this on Peterbilts, Caterpillars, Sterlings...). Pour in 2 quarts of your favorite non-energy conserving oil. Forget about until the next service. Savage power train would likely be just as happy on 20 year old gear oil. The engine is great, too bad the electrical system is crappier than a 1950s Lucas design... |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by bill67 on 06/12/12 at 13:36:54 I've had a lot of bikes with that little oil sight window and have no problem with it,And I don't see why anyone wouldn't put the oil level to the top line not in the middle.When you do a car do you go to the top line or in the middle of it. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by WD on 06/12/12 at 13:44:28 Depends on the car. If it has a vertical oil filter it gets pre-filled and the oil goes to the top of the line. If it has a horizontal filter (like the Savage) I'll add the required amount, which is over the line until the engine is run. After shutdown and cool down the oil should be at or under the top line. Or there are my good engines, fill to the line, then fill the oil filter canister after dropping in a new filter cartridge. And yes, some bikes use that system as well. Bikes with site glass can be tricky for some folks. As long as the oil is within the lines with the bike set per the manual (upright or on stand, either can be right, depends on bike) the level is fine. Over the top line is over filled, under the bottom line is under filled. Since the Savage calls for such a goofy way to check the oil, I just go with 2 quarts and say good enough. With a heavy duty highway service 20W50 like I run, a cup of oil either way is irrelevant. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by bill67 on 06/12/12 at 14:56:33 I would rather have it a little over the top line than under,You know it not going to hurt anything being over the line or they would have the top line lower.I would think it would run a little cooler with more oil. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by 360k+ on 06/12/12 at 15:52:37 5B485F5E414C4A48431C2D0 wrote:
Interesting point, eventually all the oil will get changed anyway even if you leave a few percent in the engine at each service. And as you say, it may prevent temporary oil starvation to some components on startup (slightly dirty oil for a few seconds is preferable to no oil). 383336366C6D5A0 wrote:
One time on my beemer I was adding the oil after a service. I got to the point where the oil was at the top line, but I went ahead dumped the last of the quart in just to empty the bottle. HUGE mistake! When they say to top of the line on a beemer, they mean it, because on my next trip it blew oil out the breather all over the motor. The beemer used almost 5 quarts with filter, so I thought a little over the mark wouldn't be that significant - wrong! |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by WD on 06/12/12 at 20:18:02 The one and only BMW I've ever had blew up right after a service. Late models will puke out the extra oil, my R51 grenaded. Transmission trouble, followed by locked drive shaft, followed by the engine blowing up. Blew the back half off so violently it ripped the frame apart. Haven't over filled a bike since and still won't own a shaft drive. ;D |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by Digger on 07/29/12 at 19:06:19 160512130C0107050E51600 wrote:
Thanks, ver....makes sense. I just made a note in my FSM reminding me NOT to tilt the bike while the old engine oil is draining. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by Digger on 07/29/12 at 19:10:01 0E1D590 wrote:
There was some info going around a few years back about the factory recommending that you not fill engine oil much past the halfway mark on BMW motorcycles. Seems they found that overfilling the engine oil was leading to excess carbon deposits in the combustion chambers, which then led to pinging..... Ever since then, I've been a halfway kind of guy for all of my IC vehicles (can't hurt, could help).....I just watch the levels a little closer between oil changes. |
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Title: Re: YAOQ (yet another oil question) Post by RidgeRunner13 on 07/29/12 at 19:25:56 That's really only a problem with boxer engines like BMW, VW, Porsche & Subaru. Just a little too much gets picked up by the crank & thrown into the cylinders, sometimes damaging the rings. Way too much & the damage from the oil being pumped back & forth by the pistons causes catastrophic failure in a hurry. Had a customer with a Subaru that was ruined in about 25 miles by 1 quart too much oil. Jiffy Lube had to buy him an engine, from the dealer & installed by the dealer.$$$$$$$. |
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