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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> trouble putting in new brake fluid /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1338766275 Message started by splash07 on 06/03/12 at 16:31:15 |
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Title: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/03/12 at 16:31:15 I have searched and found where others have had this problem but I cannot saeem to fix it. I have no pressure when I pull in the brake lever. I have recently changed to the SS brake line and so I am starting with a dry system and new fluid. Put fluid in reservoir and did the ole pump sqeuze open close bit for a while before I decided nothing at all was actually happening. Searched some more and decided I needed to bleed the master cylinder. So I pulled lever in lossened the banjo on the master cyl then tightened it then pump and repeat, did not seem to be anything happening. removed the hose altogether and pumped the lever and only a small trickle of fluid comes form the master cyl. I still have no resistence, help? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by verslagen1 on 06/03/12 at 16:50:32 gravity bleed, fill master, open bleeder go get a beer. refill master when necessary. refill beer when necessary. you may even need to remove the bleeder to get it to go. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by SimonTuffGuy on 06/03/12 at 16:50:52 You need to loosen the bleeder screw on caliper itself... If you've never done it before, find someone to help you... These are your BRAKES and you need them to work correctly. The process is... Attach a hose (I used aquarium hose from the local pet shop) to the nipple of the bleeder on the caliper. Loosen the bleeder screw, with the reservoir filled (I always put the cap/lid back on, didn't screw it, but laid on top - I also propped the bike up so that master cylinder was level), pump the brake lever 4 to 5 times, hold the lever in and tighten the bleeder screw... Let out on the brake lever. Loosen the screw, pump 4 to 5 times, tighten the screw, let out on the brake lever. Repeat this until you have a full stream of brake fluid coming out of the tube with NO BUBBLES... Remember to keep the reservoir filled, as you'll be draining it when bleeding. I had to add fluid 4 or 5 times during my bleeding. Things to keep in mind... Do not close the bleeder screw with the brake lever OUT... And do not open it with the brake lever pulled in. Again... If you don't know what you're doing... Get someone that does to help you. These are things that you don't want to fail when you need them. :) |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/03/12 at 17:22:53 the hose is completly removed and no fluid will come out of the master cyl. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by verslagen1 on 06/03/12 at 17:34:28 last time I replaced a hose I used a vacuum bleeder. didn't even have time to get a beer. :'( |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/03/12 at 20:04:21 OK, took hose of master cyl, emptied all the fluid out of the master cyl, blew a little compressed air in the outlet to clean things out a little. Put the whole system back together and filled the reservoir with fluid, zip tied the brake lever back, opened the bleeder and put the bleeder in a jar of brake fluid. Wait 30 minutes drink several beers, return to find nothing has happened. No fluid is gone from the reservoir. What the heck! |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by verslagen1 on 06/03/12 at 20:18:14 don't tie the lever down, when it's released is when it equalizes. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by verslagen1 on 06/03/12 at 20:28:37 I'm thinking the 1st time I did it, I used the palm of my hand over the top of the master cylinder to seal it off and press down to pump the fluid in, think that got it going. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/03/12 at 23:13:28 When there is exactly zero fluid in the M/C & the hole in the bottom is blown dry, I think its hard to get the fluid to pass into that little hole. IDK why, exactly, cuz if you had a hole that size in a bottle of brake fluid, it'd be empty in a minute,,Anyway, if you have a syringe, pull the fluid level down in the M/C, then load the syringe & put it right down on the hole & try to seal it off by pushing on it & try to force some fluid into the piston, mite need to squeeze the lever a couple of times. Look up Prime master cylinder Getting a vac setup for blake breeding is a good thing. save tons of hassle. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by Pine on 06/04/12 at 07:05:05 32080C0E0F35140707261418610 wrote:
Not trying to be funny... pretty sure one needs to replace "brake" where you see "clutch" in these instructions. I was able to drain my MC and bleed the entire system, with very little problem. Some ramblings that may be helpful: In the process, you must: fill the master cylinder completely replace the cover and tighten down open the bleeder, only a little squessze and hold the brake lever fully close the bleeder release the brake lever That is one cycle... when the system is full of air you will only get air as the brake fluid is forced down it will start to "spit" as all the air is removed you will get a steady stream This took me at least 30 minutes to do alone with no specialty items. I had to refill the MC about 5 times. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by 360k+ on 06/04/12 at 08:48:19 Just to make sure you understand. The entire brake system; master, line, caliper MUST be full of fluid ONLY with no air bubbles - not even little tiny air bubbles. Why? Because air compresses, causing spongy brakes. One of the problems that I think Vers was getting at, is air bubbles rise, so they tend to float AWAY from your caliper because it is BELOW (gravity wise) your master cylinder. So if there is air in the line it is trying to rise in the line, while you are trying to push it down and out the bleeder - a direction it does not naturally want to go in. The master cylinder is really just a fancy kind of pump. When you hold the lever in, it is sealed so no fluid can transfer to or from the brake line to the master reservoir. If you think about it this makes sense. When you release the lever, the master cylinder "grabs" a new quantity of fluid to push toward the caliper the next time you squeeze. In an actual working brake system you won't be pushing much fluid at all, and the brake should feel very solid at the lever - almost like a mechanical connection. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by RidgeRunner13 on 06/04/12 at 10:04:12 I've been working on bikes since before they had disc brakes. I usually drain & refill mine at least once a year so I've had lots of practice. I get a length of 3/16" clear tubing long enough to reach from the bleeder screw to the master cylinder. I fill the m/c, put the hose on the bleeder screw & open it about 1/2 turn & hold the free end of the tubing in the fluid in the m/c reservoir. Keeping the free end down in the fluid, I slowly pump the brake lever until I have a solid stream of fluid in the hose. I then close the bleeder screw & remove the hose from the bleeder. If you clamp the hose just above the bleeder before you take it off, you won't even make a mess. This has always worked for me & gives the firmest lever of all the methods I've used for years. 8-) It works because when you release the lever, it will draw fluid into the hose & not air, & when you squeeze the lever the air will bubble out. ;D Just keep the free end IN THE FLUID so you don't draw air in. Between my 2 bikes & my friends, I do this several times a year. It even works for rear disc brakes too, as I found out when I did my V-Star 950 the first time. ::) I first came up with this idea in 1980 when I put a disc brake front end from a '72 Norton Commando on my '70. After spendng a frustrating day going through the m/c & caliper, cleaning & rebuilding both, I still couldn't get it to work. I tried this & was done in 15 minutes. You don't forget what works when you've been as frustrated as I was that day. :) |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/04/12 at 14:41:24 Finally had some time to work on it this afternoon. I tried the palm plunger method suggested by vers. That seemed to get things going. I am now going through the cycle of pump squeeze open close bleeder repeat. It seems to be going OK but really s.....l....o.....w. I have been going for like 20 mionutes and only refilled the reservoir once now. I also get no resistence when I pull on the lever. How long does it usually take to start feeling some pressure? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by RidgeRunner13 on 06/04/12 at 14:50:54 Make sure your forks are turned so the bleeder is at the highest point & use the hose. You will be able to see the air leave the system that way. 8-) You may have to loosen the m/c & rotate it on the bars to a more level position until you have it bled. :) |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/04/12 at 14:53:37 I can clearly see air and brake fluid spit come out of the bleeder but the reservior seems to be draining down really slow. How long should this process take if everything is working correctly? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by Savage_Rob on 06/04/12 at 15:52:55 362532332C2127252E71400 wrote:
That's a true story! |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/04/12 at 16:50:48 still sitiin here bleeding.......I guess I will just bleed my front brakes in my free time over the next few days and hope pressure finally builds up. >:( |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by RidgeRunner13 on 06/04/12 at 17:05:18 Just because this thread reminded me I hadn't done my Savage in about 15 months, I went out & drained mine after my last post. Using the method I described, I replaced the fluid & bled the system. It took me less than 20 minutes from start to finish, & the lever is as firm as ever. 8-) Keep doing what your doing, I'm going for a little ride now. ;D ;) |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/04/12 at 17:26:39 basically doing exactly what you did except I dont have a hose that long so i just periodically have to refill the MC. Still going slow as sh1t. Which MC do you have ridge? the straight bar or the buckhorn style? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by RidgeRunner13 on 06/04/12 at 17:44:26 It came with buckhorns, but I have some H-D bars on it now. Not sure what difference that would make? :-? :-/ I know it seems the same, but nothing I tried worked like that does. I usually just use a bottle with some fluid in it to cover the end of the hose down in the bottle, but it doesn't seem to work on bikes like it does cars. I routinely bleed even anti-lock automtive systems using my bleeder bottle by myself. 8-) |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/04/12 at 17:45:55 there are two different master cylinders for the savage, one for the buckhorns one for the drag style bars. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by RidgeRunner13 on 06/04/12 at 17:51:31 A master cylinder is just a manual hydraulic pump, no matter what it is on. This worked on my friends' Hyusong 650 when I serviced it in March, & it has worked on any bike I've ever serviced the brakes on. 8-) Inside I would bet they are the same, even if the outside is different. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/04/12 at 17:54:29 thats fine but why is it taking me forever to do this, cant be because I am not using a 4 foot long hose. Anyone have any other ideas? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by SimonTuffGuy on 06/04/12 at 18:23:05 1B22252E3F24394B0 wrote:
Haha... I'm such a tard. I don't know what I was thinking. I've edited my first post to be "correct" now. :) I did mine without a pump in about 15 minutes, and that was never having bled them before, finding a block to even the bike out, and cleaning up the fluid spill. My system sat empty for 12+ months too, cable disconnected, etc. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/04/12 at 20:27:58 something is obviously wrong then |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/04/12 at 21:18:15 with the hose removed from the master cyl. and fluid in the reservoir, shouldnt the fluid fow out with the lever let out? Mine does nothing. I can sit there and pump the lever and no fluid emerges from the side of the master cyl. possibly need to rebuild the mc? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by verslagen1 on 06/04/12 at 21:28:04 I know it's a sombich to get started. I wouldn't just pump it w/o at least covering the banjo hole with your finger on the return stroke. otherwise there's nothing to draw in the next volume of fluid. start there, banjo off, finger over the hole, pump. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/04/12 at 21:47:18 did that and got a little fluid to flow through. Finger over hole, pump, air pressure behind finger and then a decent suction when I let the lever out. Put the banjo bolt in and still not getting and presure in the lever. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by verslagen1 on 06/04/12 at 21:52:49 you won't till it's fully bled if you get it started, take the hose off the caliper and bleed that. I'd hold the end up over the master and let it drip back into it. same thing, hold your fingers over the holes so it don't suck back. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/06/12 at 06:37:22 OK, well I finally got really fed up with this and went and bought myself one of these (god I love HF, had to call my dad and have him talk me into leaving the store before I blew all my rent money on tools. ;D) http://www.harborfreight.com/brake-bleeder-and-vacuum-pump-kit-92474.html still took me about 45 minutes to get it fully bled. But it is working great now. One question: Is the caliper piston supposed to reset itself? I pulled the lever a couple of times to check on the pressure and it grabbed but then would not go back in. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/06/12 at 18:06:32 Alright well I got the brakes bled fine, there is a lot of pressure in system. However, the caliper piston is still sticking out. I Pumped the lever until the caliper piston was out a good bit then used dome PB blaster and grease to lube it up then pressed it back in with a c-clamp. put pads in and wheel and it is still grabbing and sticking. Should I take the caliper piston out altogether or continue the lube press repeat prosess? Also, the smaller retainer that goes on the upper part of the brake pads is a bit loose since one of the smaller tabs that holds it in place broke off. Does it need to be snug, should I replace it or can I get by? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/14/12 at 06:12:04 OK, so I walked away from the front brake for a few days to focus on other aspects of my build hoping someone would come up with a solution for me. The caliper piston is still not retracting. I have pumped the caliper piston out several times to lube and press back in. It grabs fine but just wont return. ideas? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by lch2 on 06/14/12 at 06:18:17 Hello Splash07 What do you mean by "retracting" The piston on the caliper should stay out when not braking, just not pushing the pads. If you are able to turn your wheel after releasing the brake lever then you are OK, the piston does not go back in by itself, it is just pushed back enough to allow the rotation of the disc. in this way it is always adjusted and ready to brake. please let us know if you are not able to rotate the wheel, that will be a whole different matter that may require further cleaning of the caliper, and maybe new seals. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/14/12 at 06:22:51 yeah it definitely wont let the wheel turn when I pull the lever and release. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by lch2 on 06/14/12 at 06:31:32 4C4F535E4C570F083F0 wrote:
I think there are two options for this to happened: 1. Pressure not being released by the Master Cylinder, to check this just quickly open the bleeder to see if there's pressure, after releasing the pressure you should be able to turn the wheel or 2. The piston being stuck, maybe dirt build up, or the piston grabbing something when pushed back in, and that is causing the piston to be jammed, for this I will take the caliper out, and push the piston out (using air or something like it, don't grab it with pliers or anything that can damage the piston walls) Completely clean the piston and the caliper from build ups, and assemble back together, I use a special grease for this called Versalube, or vaseline if Versalube is not available, don't like to use regular grease. Maybe someone else has another suggestion for you! Good luck |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/14/12 at 06:40:30 Ich2, thanks for the suggestions, I dont think that it's a pressure problem, I have tried to release pressure form the caliper by opening the bleeder and letting out some fluid and still nothing. So I am going to give the caliper piston and caliper itself a good cleaning, greasing, and then reassemble and hope that works. will keep yall posted. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by RidgeRunner13 on 06/14/12 at 06:43:18 If the piston is sticking, remove the caliper & before you disconnect it from the hose, hold it over a bucket & gently pump the lever & the piston will pop out. Then just clean the piston & caliper of any residue. Use brake fluid to lube the piston to press it back in. Brake fluid & the seals do not mix well with petroleum products. If the piston has any rust on it it will have to be replaced. You should be able to press the piston in by hand if everything is clean & lubed. :) 8-) |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/15/12 at 07:36:49 OK, so I popped the piston out last night. Looked a bit dirty so I used some brake fluid and my finger to clean it up then wiped it down with a rag. It looked pretty clean. So I used some brake fluid to lube it up and did the same to the inside of the caliper and tried pushing it back in. I opened the bleeder to release any air pressure. I could get the piston to go in about 3-4 mm but then it just stops and wont go any further by hand. Time for new seals? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 06/19/12 at 10:51:17 Searched around a bit and couldnt find any directions for rebuilding the front caliper. Any suggestions for me. Ordered new seals yesterday, my piston looks decent so i am going to try and reuse it. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/19/12 at 11:26:56 Thers nothing to explain, clean it up, inspect the puck, make sure everything is smooth, put Orings where they go, put some brake fluid on parts that have to slip together & slip it together. Unless theres a trick part in the caliper I dont know about, its just a hydraulic cylinder that has a casting on it to mount to the bike & hold pads. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 07/08/12 at 16:20:03 update: Finally got around to puttin in the new seals. Got em in OK, lubed everything with brake fluid, was able to push the piston in by hand with some finageling. Now when I apply the front brake the wheel stops and the brake pads let go when the lever is released, however, there is still some resistance. Not much but its there and its slowing me down, literally. How much resistance should i expect or should the wheel spin freely everytime you release the brake lever? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/08/12 at 16:41:20 Its gonna drag some, just the nature of the beast,,if you cant roll it around easily, somethings wrong,, youll hear it, but it shouldnt be dragging so much that the disk gets hot. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 07/08/12 at 19:28:11 OK, well after countless pumps on the brake lever, the brakes still release their grip. They do drag a bit but I guess that is the nature of the beast. Thanks everyone. Now all I have to do is take it all apart, tape it off, sand it again, repaint it, bake it to cure the paint, reassemble, re-bleed, and I am good to go. updates soon. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/08/12 at 19:45:04 You can do all that when its too cold to ride, cant ya? |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by splash07 on 07/08/12 at 19:48:01 I would normally wait but with this project I have been working on it for so long that I want it 100% right the first time its out of the house. Ive waited this long, whats another 4-6 hours to get it all the way there. |
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Title: Re: trouble putting in new brake fluid Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/08/12 at 21:37:50 Good point,, |
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