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Message started by 360k+ on 06/03/12 at 11:20:21

Title: Timing light?
Post by 360k+ on 06/03/12 at 11:20:21

Has anyone ever put a timing light on the motor and watched the timing marks? I'm curious as to the advance curve, which seems to be calculated electronically in the ignitor unit. The shop manual says 5 deg BTDC at 2000 rpm and 30 deg at 4000 rpm, so I assume there is a somewhat linear transition between the two?

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by Bubba on 06/04/12 at 06:55:50

I don't think you can adjust it so what's the point? Maybe i'm wrong tho'

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by thumperclone on 06/04/12 at 09:43:56

some makes of bikes you can elnogate the holes in the pick ups mounting tabs..
dont see much of a beneifit imo

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by 360k+ on 06/04/12 at 12:59:19

I'm not interested in adjustment so much as I am in the advance curve being generated. Anyway, since this post, I think I have things pretty well figured out, and now have a 2 digit LED tachometer working showing 1000ths and 100ths of RPMs, as was my goal in my original post last month...

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1337306855

Now I'm trying to figure out a way to place the display either on the speedo light panel, or attached right above it in a plastic housing, along with another 2 digit display showing either cylinder head or oil temp.

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by ralfyguy on 06/04/12 at 18:58:44

What would you aim the timing light at? No pulleys or other exposed rotating items on the bike.

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by 360k+ on 06/04/12 at 19:48:49

Ahhh, good question. I assumed that you could pull the timing cover off the left side and run the motor - maybe not tho, as oil may splash out??? In any case, I don't need the info anymore because I've figured out a way to look at rotor pulse vs iggy coil (spark) timing relationship and I think I know how the advance curve is done in the ignitor software (it's actually pretty cool). Now I'm tempted to tear into an ignitor to see what chip they are using and then reverse engineer Zuk's software.

I'm sorry, if some of this is over the heads of the "average Savage", but it's way cool for me. Ultimately, I could end up with a tachometer, temperature, and just about any other sensor in a multi digit display, which of course, I would share and/or kit up for the rest of the forum.

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/04/12 at 20:24:09

I could end up with a tachometer, temperature, and just about any other sensor in a multi digit display, which of course, I would share and/or kit up for the rest of the forum.

Well,, step Rite on UP to that! Heck Yeaaahh,, Ill give ya the Mupp sisters on that,,

Ita & Tara,, coupla the meanest gals I ever met,,

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by 360k+ on 06/04/12 at 20:41:57

Sounds great... ummm altho I'm sure the wife will have issues with Ita and Tara :'(

Anyway, I'll keep you guys informed of the progress. Meanwhile, if anybody can think of other schtuff they'd like to see displayed, lemme know and I'll see what can be done.

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by verslagen1 on 06/04/12 at 20:45:41

393F2C27676B6D6C675E0 wrote:

Ahhh, good question. I assumed that you could pull the timing cover off the left side and run the motor - maybe not tho, as oil may splash out??? Yes it will In any case, I don't need the info anymore because I've figured out a way to look at rotor pulse vs iggy coil (spark) timing relationship and I think I how the advance curve is done in the ignitor software (it's actually pretty cool). Now I'm tempted to tear into an ignitor to see what chip they are using and then reverse engineer Zuk's software.

I'm sorry, if some of this is over the heads of the "average Savage", but it's way cool for me. Ultimately, I could end up with a tachometer, temperature, and just about any other sensor in a multi digit display, which of course, I would share and/or kit up for the rest of the forum.

this help any? some discussion on the topic in the link.
http://www.suzukisavage.nl/ForumsPro/download/id=728.html
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1293638302/0

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by 360k+ on 06/05/12 at 10:12:32

Uh oh, blew the big coil driver transistor. I was looking at that design in the block diagram, and saw that certain situations can put the transistor right in the current loop. The shop manual specs the primary side of the coil at 1 to 7 ohms (to DC) - a pretty loose spec indeed - but if it is on the low side that means potentially 10 or 12 amps thru the transistor sitting static with the key switch on. This is not good.

This TCI design is very old (antiquated), but one of those gadgets that works for the most part so they don't invest in a new design using today's technology. A new design would use a CPU (or more likely MPU). Then it would be smart enough to disable the driver transistor when the motor isn't running, have a reprogrammable advance curve, and run the digital tach as well. I'm tempted to dive right in on mine, but don't want to disable my bike. I can simulate the circuit, but eventually must actually attach the redesigned ignitor hardware to the bike. I hate experimenting on my ride because if I blow something I ain't ridin for a while :(

Anyway, wayyy good stuff here, vers, thanx. That really helps a lot.

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by 360k+ on 06/05/12 at 11:15:33

BTW, I just looked at the microfiche parts list and the TCI ignitor part retails for $387. I can tell you from many years of working in computer manufacturing that I'd be surprised if the manufacturing cost is more than $10 or $15. This is like when you take your broken car into the shop and they tell you the computer board must be replaced for $1500. If PC manufacturers can sell a far more sophisticated motherboard for $50 AND STILL MAKE A PROFIT then something's wrong with this picture. This is a massive rip off!

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by verslagen1 on 06/05/12 at 11:34:07

You give me something plug and play I'll give it a go. 8-)

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by ratz on 06/05/12 at 11:52:40

777162692925232229100 wrote:

Now I wish I could have found my data from when the (non-existant) rev limiter was being discussed. Sounds like you have it very well sorted now. This is NO problem for the igniter you are thinking about building,the stock igniter has an input from the decomp controller that retards the timing further during cranking. I'm probably telling you what you already know though!

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by verslagen1 on 06/05/12 at 12:00:55

312237392D253122242D430 wrote:

This one?

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1267565477/30

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by ratz on 06/05/12 at 12:06:53

Thanks for finding the thread,vers! Actually I was talking about my 'scope data.I would have liked to send it to 360k+ to compare to what he has found.

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by 360k+ on 06/05/12 at 13:47:13

Yep, I want to keep everything P&P in a tiny module box under the seat or tank. It will need the rotor input, 12V, and ground, and have an output cable that goes to the display mounted near the speedo panel. The temp will be optional and derived from a thermocouple or a programmable sensor like the DS18B20. The design uses a micro controller which is mostly idle and could be doing far more, so if you guys have any ideas??? Even 9000 RPM is only 150 pulses per second or 6.67 ms between pulses. To a micro this is an eternity - lol. I was considering a fuel flow sensor, but since it couldn't be easily coupled with the speedo (giving mpg), it wouldn't mean much.

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by CaptialThumper on 06/05/12 at 21:06:13

686E7D76363A3C3D360F0 wrote:

The design uses a micro controller which is mostly idle and could be doing far more, so if you guys have any ideas???

A trip odo would be sweet, but you'd need a couple inputs that might not be easy to get including a user button.

Title: Re: Timing light?
Post by 360k+ on 06/06/12 at 08:00:21

Yep, the trip meter would be nice, but like speed, distance can't be derived from RPM alone. If I could get speedo cable input, it opens up a whole bunch of possibilities, but goes against keeping the project a simple plug-n-play.

I consider the missing trip meter on this bike a mistake, especially given it only has a 2.5 gallon tank (my beemer has 6.5 gallon). I know that many will argue about simply running until you go on reserve, and that works well for city dwellers, but for me, "town" is 35 miles away. If you start out for town and have to go on reserve right away, then it's iffy whether you'll make it or not.