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Message started by chris_sellars on 05/22/12 at 11:38:05

Title: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in EU?
Post by chris_sellars on 05/22/12 at 11:38:05

Hi guys
I'm a bit lost, and wonder if you could guide me....
My workshop manual tells me that the bore of my bike is 94mm diameter and 94mm stroke STD, now looking at the things i have read here I was lead to believe that in the US the bore is 95mm and 90.4 stroke STD.

i took the thing to bits to confirm and yes, my manual was right.
the next problem i have is this...

i need to find a compatible piston .50mm or 1mm oversize, doesnt have to be suzuki..
i have tried to get one from the suzuki dealer but they want £50 for the rings and £136 for the piston, converting that to $ its around $294, Crazy money for what it is!!

any advice would be great!! :'(

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by LANCER on 05/22/12 at 12:59:16

Look on eBay for 1990-95 Suzuki DR650 Wiseco pistons; 95 or 96mm; they are forged pistons and come with rings, pin & clips for under $200.
The 90-95 DR650 & LS650 shared a common piston, except that the DR started at 95mm vs the LS at 94mm bore.
The Wiseco piston also has a raised crown so compression ratio will go up as well. :)

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by chris_sellars on 05/22/12 at 13:10:15

Thanks Lancer!

with the raised crown... would i have to modify anything? like perhaps a thicker gasket or would it be ok with the OEM one?
if the guy's that are selling these on ebay would declare it as a gift and not as a export of goods sold that would work... if i get stung by customs, they would ask me for more money and i would be back to square one again in regards of price :-(

I will ask.... you dont ask you dont get!! ;-)

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 05/22/12 at 14:05:35

When I was poking around for gaskets on bouvlevardsuzuki.com I thought I saw the .5mm o/s piston with rings for ~100.00USD.
300 USD for one piston is crazy.

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 05/23/12 at 15:16:25

I'm curious now.
I was bored at work and doing a little browsing:
It seems the DR650 is a 9.5:1 static compression ratio piston where as our bikes have an 8.5:1 static compression ratio.

It's been a while since I've had to solve for dynamic compression but I believe that puts our bikes around 9~ish for a dynamic compression ratio with 94mm stroke.
The DR650 is, as stated above, a 9.5:1 piston, but designed for 82mm stroke.
Surely the DCR increases well above that 9.5:1 once you add almost an extra half inch of stroke? At what point does premium fuel come in to play?

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by verslagen1 on 05/23/12 at 16:01:24

comes into play when you put that piston in the savage.

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by LANCER on 05/23/12 at 19:09:08

The DR pistons go right in; along with the newly bored cylinder of course, but no alterations are needed otherwise.
The compression ends up in the 10:1 range so either medium or premium fuel is needed.

I do offer a Big Bore Kit with piston and cylinder (bored, honed, silicone carbide treatment, bead blasted and painted black) for $525 + shp

I have 3 sets being processed now; one is a 95mm piston and 2 are 97mm pistons.
I will discount the 95mm set for $475 + shp.

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 05/23/12 at 21:07:03

You already got enough of my money this year!

I'm just wondering for this cat's sake. I belive it's somewhere around 6 dollars a litre now? I don't know how much a litre is. I know how much a gallon is. Anyway, he's not stateside and probably pays double if not triple what we do for gas. Let alone he have to step up to premium. Do you guys even get premium out there? I've only lived a sheltered US life.

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by chris_sellars on 05/26/12 at 13:26:18

Hi guy's sorry, iv'e been busy at work the last couple of days.

Lancer the 95mm kit your offering sound interesting providing the P+P is not an arm and a leg to the UK Perhaps you could lower it even more if I sent you my STD cylinder on an exchange basis if possible?? ;-)

PARAQUAT..In regards to the fuel here in the UK, there is only a slight difference in octane levels... Normal gas is 95 RON and Premium is 97 RON. price of fuel here as you all should know, is a rip off £1.39 a litre normal gas and premium is about £1.47 a litre = $2.30 a litre for premium.

Now could i get away with running one of these piston kits with 95 RON gas?

Thanks guy's!

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 05/26/12 at 18:13:01

So... ~$8.70 USD/gal.
Insane.

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by LANCER on 05/26/12 at 18:57:58

666D776C7676606969647776050 wrote:

I do offer a $50 credit toward the price of the kit for a cylinder exchange.

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by chris_sellars on 05/28/12 at 12:27:38

Hi guys
Sorry Lancer but is far out from my budget,, I think I might just have to stick to a .05 OS piston kit, if I can get one cheap enough, do you know anyone that would have one cheap?

What about you Steve? do you know of anyone that will have one at a decent price?

cheers
Chris

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 05/29/12 at 09:21:06

Funny you mention it...
In true "Plan for the worst, hope for the best" fashion I had ordered one for my rebuild. Fortunately, as stated in my "cooked crank" thread, my piston showed little wear on the skirt and even less on the cylinder walls.

I'd be willing to let it go. It should actually arrive at my house in the next two or three days. I'll take a pic when it gets here.

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by chris_sellars on 05/30/12 at 11:17:42

Hi Steve

How much do you want for the piston kit?

Cheers
Chris

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by RycaShawn on 05/30/12 at 23:54:22

95mm Weisco piston = 10.X:1 CR? I'm using 87 octane and no detonation. I guess I should pull my plug and look for the peppering huh?

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Drifter on 05/31/12 at 08:33:45

On a cool day 87 should..... work running slow to medium speed, hot day haulin arse probably will knock not good! My dr 650 needs high test fuel when temps get above 92f and its stock.

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by RycaShawn on 05/31/12 at 08:36:18

I'll try 91 octane today for shits...

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by renegade1 on 05/31/12 at 08:55:09

with an oversize piston do you have to change out the valves/ valve springs and/or cam? :o

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by RycaShawn on 05/31/12 at 09:16:24

I am using the 95mm Weisco, Web cam, and stock valves and springs.

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 05/31/12 at 09:23:52

22353E353731343561500 wrote:

with an oversize piston do you have to change out the valves/ valve springs and/or cam? :o

I'm going to lap mine just to refresh 'em but that's it. It's barely going oversized and I don't think it'd be an issue.

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by LANCER on 05/31/12 at 12:21:30

647378737177727327160 wrote:

with an oversize piston do you have to change out the valves/ valve springs and/or cam? :o

As noted by Paraquat, going with a larger piston/bore size does not require any other changes to the engine. Changing to a camshaft with more valve lift and duration; opening the exhaust ports; header with larger ID and good flowing muffler; performance designed carb; and such things will complement the effect achieved with a larger piston and higher compression. Any of the changes, in most any order, will improve the efficiency and power of the engine.
I consider the basic 3 for efficient power to be carb/cam/exhaust. They are fairly quick and easy to replace and will transform the character of the engine, and the camshaft is at the heart of the character transformation.
Any of the changes, when combined with others have a synergistic effect on efficient engine performance. 1+1=3 ... 1+1+1=5 ... etc.
This engine is so much fun to play with. In stock form it is so under powered and responds so well to massaging.

Ever check to see why the DR650 ('90-95 model years) has a stated 45 hp and the LS650 is just 30 ? It has a 1 mm larger bore and 3.6mm shorter stroke; the valves are the same size; compression is slightly higher; but the camshaft & exhaust ports make the biggest difference. Valve lift and duration are significantly higher/longer and the head is shaped a little differently with allows for more open ports and exhaust flow. There is also no outer blocking ring at the exhaust port exit like on the LS650 head. Bigger hole = more flow.

With a little creative work it is possible to adapt a DR head to the LS engine. That is my opinion based on direct comparison of the parts in side by side examination and measurements. That could be a fun experiment. 8-)

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by RycaShawn on 05/31/12 at 13:50:52

What size does the header pipe need to be, 1.5"? Does anyone make this for the general public or custom only?

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by renegade1 on 06/01/12 at 09:23:17

some of this talk about octane is interesting... in my OM it says ust gas(no ethenol) and the only think that has no eth. is 94 octane. 87 and 91 "may contain up to 10% eth." should i always he using 94 then?? the previous owner always used 87.

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by LANCER on 06/01/12 at 17:23:50

5972686A58636A7C650B0 wrote:

What size does the header pipe need to be, 1.5"? Does anyone make this for the general public or custom only?

1 1/2" ID pipe which will have a 1 5/8" OD will work very well for a stock to moderately modified engine and will work for a more modified engine, but I do think a 1 5/8" ID / 1 3/4" OD is better suited for the more highly modified engine.

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by RycaShawn on 06/01/12 at 17:35:47

Have you ever cut out the internal pipe from the stock header and ran just that? I haven't measured the diameter, but it sounds like an interesting idea...

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by LANCER on 06/01/12 at 18:50:00

5972686A58636A7C650B0 wrote:

Have you ever cut out the internal pipe from the stock header and ran just that? I haven't measured the diameter, but it sounds like an interesting idea...

The outer pipe of the stock header would be too large for this engine. Exhaust gas flow rate would slow significantly, reducing efficiency & power a lot, as well as making it more difficult to tune.

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by RycaShawn on 06/01/12 at 22:27:45

I'm thinking about just opening up the inside, making sort of an anti-reversion chamber. I think the stock outer tube is 2" so the bend out of the head change to 1.5", then dump into the 2", then back into the stock inner.... Have any pictures of a 1.5" custom header?

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by LANCER on 06/02/12 at 08:59:32

53786260526960766F010 wrote:

This is the first header I made; 1.75"OD/1.65" ID
Its wrapped here but I will look for a photo of it before.

http://images1.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp354%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D3234%3A%3B%3B%3B%3B%3A3%3A5nu0mrj

This is a shot of the bare header without the wrap

http://images1.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp937%3Enu%3D323%3A%3E639%3E697%3EWSNRCG%3D32%3B74%3A%3A3%3C%3B339nu0mrj

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 06/05/12 at 09:42:21

I called up boulevardsuzuki (the place I got the parts from) and they said they haven't shipped my order because they're waiting on one more piece.
No one had any idea I even placed an order. When it comes in though this piston will be available.

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 06/10/12 at 10:40:53

Sent you a PM.

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by chris_sellars on 06/10/12 at 11:14:28

HI Steve

Sorry mate I can't respond to them till I do 10 posts or something like that....
Can you find out what the p&p would be to the UK please, so I can make an offer; -)
cheers
Chris

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by verslagen1 on 06/10/12 at 11:24:49

10 posts are pretty easy to get, put your 2 cents (or farthings as the case may be) in many of the cafe threads or state that you use only m/c oil in several of the oil war threads.

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 06/11/12 at 09:34:11

What's your postal code so I can calculate it?

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by chris_sellars on 06/11/12 at 09:50:59

Hi Steve
My post is sy10 7ts.
Cheers
Chris

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 06/11/12 at 11:25:07

You're not gonna like the answer.
The cost to ship the piston is more than the piston itself.
I'm getting just over 100USD for shipping alone from 06053 USA to sy10 7ts UK.
I chose my packaging, 3"x3"x4", 2 lbs weight, and ship from UPS store.

$75 if I go through usps.com.

I'm never going to make back what I paid for it so I'd be willing to meet halfway at 150 shipped via USPS. Did you get the pictures in the PM?

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by chris_sellars on 06/11/12 at 13:51:09

Hi Steve
That is crazy money for such a small thing!!!
I was doing a bit of hunting around for postage prices from different companies but i came across this from usps...

let me know if you can see it..

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by chris_sellars on 06/11/12 at 13:58:24

there is no need for Express mail..
i can wait for it... the bike is in pieces till next summer as i am converting it to a bobber but with a twist...;-)
I dont know if i mentioned it before but when i got the savage, it was a frame and a box of bits.. so its a complete rebuild from the ground up
pictures will soon follow in a new thread.

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 06/12/12 at 06:27:52

I'll take some screen shots of the quotes I got when I get home. It'd boggle your mind. Not sure how you got down to 30 bucks?

I actually have to go there today to pick up my performance carb kit so I'll get a quote in person.

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by chris_sellars on 06/13/12 at 14:00:15

Hi Steve
Any joy?

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 07/02/12 at 11:32:54

Nothing good. I've actually been off the forum for a week or two.
My car threw a rod so I've been rushing to get a new engine in it.
I never stopped by the post office.

--Steve

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by chris_sellars on 07/02/12 at 13:20:53

Hi Steve
yeah so have i to be fair, bad news about the car man.

I don't need a piston set anymore mate. I managed to get one here in the UK as a NOS from a little run down bike garage/workshop. and best of all, i got it for peanuts! haha £36 = around $60 at a guess :-)

I sure one of the guy's here will buy it of you soon ;-)

Title: Re: Piston size and stroke? 95mm in US and 94mm in
Post by Paraquat on 07/03/12 at 07:56:30

Sweet price.
I was getting worried aout not having gotten the quote to you so that's a load off.
Someone stateside buy my piston!

--Steve