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Message started by deanwheeler on 05/21/12 at 05:14:09

Title: Starter bind
Post by deanwheeler on 05/21/12 at 05:14:09

AGGGH just had a nice long post compiled and lost it when I went to submit it because it had a link in it (and was my first post).

Here is the brief recap:
1988 Savage needed starting clutch replaced (missing teeth). Ordered new style idler gears and side case at same time. When put back together, starter does nothing when starter button pressed. Works if untorque case bolts. Found a couple different references on this site to some washer binding the starter if work has been done in left side of engine. However, haven't been able to find specifics.

Parts diagram for 1996 shows 2 thrust washers (one on each side of Limiter Assembly, ST). Are both needed? Or only one? Or neither? None were in there originally (and the 1988 diagram shows none). Those are the only washers I can see that might make a difference. Am I looking in the wrong place?

I like working on my bike, but would rather be riding it......

Any help would be appreciated.

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by Oldfeller on 05/21/12 at 11:12:43

Read here

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1288911670

Did you remove some of the boss height on the aluminum boss as per the tech thread?

Before carving up on that new side case, pick the side of the new clutch assembly that is smmooothest where it hits the aluminium and leave off the steel washer on that side. Try again, you are simply running into a bind condition due to tolerance interference.

Thick gasket material would make some additional room (thick roll gasket material from auto parts store, cut it off the old gasket as a pattern or use the cover as a tracer pattern for the OD).

When Verslagen finishes typing his reply -- do what he says. He's the expert on this topic.

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by verslagen1 on 05/21/12 at 11:38:37

Although I had no issues with my '88, there's been a report that the pinion gear didn't mesh fully with the starter clutch gear. And that maybe the case was modified for better fit. And there has been a number of complaints that the starter gear teeth break. So this maybe true that early models had an engagement problem and was resolved with a case change. Since yours had the starter clutch teeth breakage, it may be the issue.

A washer is required on both sides of the torque limiter because there are no smooth surfaces there. If it's binding, you may have to find some thin washers.

Generally, when the cover is removed, one of the washers will leap off and it is invarirably put back in the wrong spot and will cause the binding. both washers go on the torque limiter.

And I'm assuming you're using a late model cover as well?

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by deanwheeler on 05/21/12 at 11:55:07

Sorry, apparently my post wasn't clear. I did order a newer model side cover when I ordered the gear.

I started reading (prior to ordering parts) with the link provided: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1288911670. As I orderd the newer style case, I shouldn't need to shave anything off right?

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by deanwheeler on 05/21/12 at 12:07:13

"Generally, when the cover is removed, one of the washers will leap off and it is invarirably put back in the wrong spot and will cause the binding."
The parts diagram doesn't show any washers on the original idler gear #1, and I don't believe there were any in there.

both washers go on the torque limiter.
Good to know, then I have it installed correctly.

And I'm assuming you're using a late model cover as well?Yes, I am.

could I just be over-torquing the case? I didn't tighten them that tight.....

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by Bubba on 05/23/12 at 09:17:44

had the same problem on on old '96 i was fixing...the washers sound like they are in the right spot so you shouldn't be getting any binding...ya have to torque the case enough so that it won't leak so if it's at spec you should be good to go

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by verslagen1 on 05/23/12 at 12:09:07

6564606F766964646D6473010 wrote:

could I just be over-torquing the case? I didn't tighten them that tight.....

No, you'd have to squeeze out the gasket if you were.

If you can, put a straight edge across the case over where the pinion gear sits and measure the distance between the boss and the straight edge. I'll try and find time to do the measurement on the '88.

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by damiancds on 05/24/12 at 18:43:28

6D6C68677E616C6C656C7B090 wrote:

AGGGH just had a nice long post compiled and lost it when I went to submit it because it had a link in it (and was my first post).

Handy little piece of information, when your doing anything like this (ie posting to a forum, saving a document, whatever) always select all of it and copy it, that way if anything happens (short of a computer crash), you have it saved to your clipboard and it's now only a minor nuisance to paste it back and change a little thing.

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by verslagen1 on 05/24/12 at 21:49:29

Couldn't get at the '88, so I measured the '02.
straight edge over the side of the case (where the gasket goes)
it measure 12mm exactly to the boss of the pinion gear.
and the idle gear boss is exactly even.

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by deanwheeler on 05/30/12 at 18:26:20

504354554A4741434817260 wrote:

Finally got around to measuring and comparing my cases too.
I measured the 88 case to the boss of the idler gear (that the starter engages) and got 12.5mm
As yours, the second idle gear boss is exactly the same at 12.5mm

I measured the 96 case to the boss of the idler gear (that the starter engages) and got 13.2mm.
However, the second idler gear boss now measured 26.4mm.

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by deanwheeler on 05/30/12 at 18:38:29

In addition, I measured the thickness of the thrust washers from Suzuki at .8mm apiece.

As Oldfeller suggested, I left the back washer on (toward engine) and that makes both idler gears line up (all 3 teeth across the torque gear grab metal on the idler gear). I left the front (outermost) washer off and bolted the cover on. No gaskets, no form-a-gasket, no spacers of any kind, nothing but case to case. In this condition, the engine will roll over.

The Suzuki gasket wasn't thick by any means, so I won't gain much clearance there. And unfortunately, much of the form-a-gasket squeezes out due to the magnetic pull of the stator when I slide the case on, so I won't gain much there. Since the engine rolls in the current configuration, does anyone know the drawbacks of leaving just one washer on? I wasn't sure if Oldfeller suggested this as a test only, or as a permanent solution.

It seems like it would work, but what works in my mind doesn't always work in the real world :-[

Title: Re: Starter bind
Post by verslagen1 on 05/30/12 at 18:46:33

I'm gonna have to measure again... I'm thinking it was 13mm not 12mm.
I'm trying not to do much thinking lately, brother was in the hospital at the time, now he's in hospice.