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Message started by bess227 on 05/11/12 at 06:23:51

Title: Please help a newb
Post by bess227 on 05/11/12 at 06:23:51

thanks up front for the help.

put a new windshield on my 07 S40 and was taking a test spin to see if it was ok. had read on a post that if you ran a couple of miles on the reserve tank and switched back to main tank it helped keep everything clean if you ever needed the reserve.

when i switched to the "reserve", like an idiot i switched the lever to "prime". about 1/2 mile after that the sputtering and loading up started, i switched it back to main but she went dead. could not get it started again. thankfully it was mostly downhill back to the house. after an hour or so i went back out and finally got it cranked, but it took a while and it ran a little rough.

just went out this morning, cranked, let idle for 30 minutes, rolled the throttle a few times and she seems fine, but i sure don't like the thoughts of being stranded again.

in your opinion, was it just flooded and took a while to clean out? the bike only has 1700 miles. had a 1000 when i bought it a month ago, and it has ran great every time out, but i have ridden it a lot as it is now my commuter.

any insight or help is appreciated. sorry if this question seems ridiculous.

Scott

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by Boule’tard on 05/11/12 at 06:33:27

There is no reserve "tank" per se. The reserve is just the result of gas being drawn from a lower pickup tube. As the level of gas is the same before and after you flip it to any position, it is impossible to flood your engine by unnecessarily flipping it to reserve or prime.

Maybe it was on reserve at first, then you flipped it to "on" but the gas level was too low (?) The bike should run just fine on prime and not flood.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by youzguyz on 05/11/12 at 06:45:03

Trying to get your sequence of events right:
Petcock: ON - drawing gas from further up the tank
Switched to PRIME: now drawing gas from bottom of tank.
Sputter sputter .. croak
Switched back to ON: no start
waited a while. got it started but running rough (didn't say how long you let it run)
Next day. Runs OK.

When you went to PRIME, you were pulling from the bottom of the tank.
If the screen is clogged on the petcock down there, it would sputter and die after draining the bowl (about 1/2 mile)
Flipping it back to ON. Bowl is still empty, it will take some cranking to get gas in it again. Maybe you didn't let it run long enough to get enough gas in the bowl.
Next day. Normal start sequence and it is OK. You have gas in the bowl from yesterday to start with.
Possible conclusion. Petcock has a gummy/clogged screen towards the bottom or the passages for Prime are a bit clogged.
Pull the petcock, clean it up. Carb Cleaner should work. Shoot carb cleaner into the gas outlet with the valve in all 3 positions.
I don't think Carb Cleaner will hurt anything in there.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by bess227 on 05/11/12 at 07:01:08

thanks to both of you for the insight.

gonna give it a spin this morning and see if i have the same issues. i will keep you posted.

what would the other options be? fouled plug? (surely not after 1700 miles) but it is an 07 and i did not ask the dealer when i bought it if the plug had been replaced.

i am open to any suggestions.

thanks again.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by Boule’tard on 05/11/12 at 07:17:01

Youzguyz is correct that a clogged petcock screen (the prime/reserve one at the bottom of the tank) will cause the problem you describe. Your bike is still fairly new and I wouldn't think your tank is rusty, but it still could be gummed up somehow. Blasting out the petcock is good advice. If you don't want to get into all that just yet, disconnect the gas line from the petcock, get a small jar under it and turn it to prime. Gas should flow freely.

If you want to check the whole petcock/vacuum system, look in the tech section for Serowbot's comprehensive test.

The spark plug on an '07 (like the petcock) should still be serviceable. If it's fouled, that's a secondary problem.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by Serowbot on 05/11/12 at 07:55:21

... as an aside,... it's not a good idea to idle an air-cooled engine for 30 minutes... It needs air movement to cool...
Try to limit idling to 5 minutes or less... ;)...

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by bess227 on 05/11/12 at 08:40:16

thanks again to both of you.

the ride was more of a jog, made it about 300 yards till it started the same thing. clogged carb or screen is my guess.

in my mind, the fact that it had 1000 miles on it in 5 yrs, and i have put 700 miles on it in basically 30 days, it's possible there were some things knocked loose or moved to create the problem.

i will try the methods you guys have suggested. if not, i have a wrench buddy that is really good that is going to help me put on FC's ( i bought from Routy, they look great) next week anyway.

you guys are a lot of help. thanks for info.

safe ridin

Scott

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by bess227 on 05/11/12 at 12:46:07

Boule'tard and Serowbot,

went home at lunch, pulled the hose from the petcock, did like you said and turned it to prime. gas flowed freely, no problem. hooked it back up, tried to fire.......would not hit.

moved it to prime and back and it started, but wouldn't stay cranked. didn't have time to pull it and shoot the carb cleaner to it, but seems that could be the problem.

looks like i am going to have to purchase a Clymers manual after all.

again, i appreciate the help. this bike has run without issue for over 700 miles. just seems wierd that it suddenly comes unglued.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by youzguyz on 05/11/12 at 12:53:21

So.. just run it on Prime if it will run that way.

Test your petcock:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1251932429/1

If you do run on Prime until you resolve the issue, remember that you do NOT HAVE RESERVE!!

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by greenmonster on 05/11/12 at 13:42:17

Could be crud in the bowl. I suspect it's not, but the test/solution is simple so it's worth a try. With your petcock ON, drain your bowl and then throw it back on PRIME to fill it. I had that happen about a month after I bought my bike and it had been sitting for a while.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by Boule’tard on 05/11/12 at 15:42:33

Ohhh boy now I am confused ::) First turning it to prime killed it, then turning to prime got it going again. Petcock war in 3..2..1..

Ok. If it runs on prime but NOT on reserve (and does so consistently) then the screen is clear, but something is up with the vacuum plunger/auto petcock mechanism. I would not expect that to happen on a 2007 bike, but I suppose the plunger could be sticking since your bike has not seen regular use. Also check the vacuum line to be sure it isn't cracked anywhere.

Hate to mention the 'R' word just yet, and I don't mean Reserve. Let's see where this goes..

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by verslagen1 on 05/11/12 at 15:46:48

I've seen crap collect inside of the petcock, so that possibly could cause some problems.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by bess227 on 05/12/12 at 07:03:41

Boule'tard.

i so appreciate you and Sero and Verslagen helping me with this.

here is where i am. after your description of reserve and prime (very helpful) i did test to see if the gas flowed freely on prime. (it does, 4 ounces in a few seconds).

last night i turned the petcock to prime. pulled the choke out to the first notch, fired it, and though it struggled, it did fire and ran, although roughly. i then turned the petcock to "run" and it shortly died.

in my mind, that tells me junk in the petcock blocking the line.....agree? either that or there is pinhole or crack in a vacuum line and therefore it doesn't have the suction to draw the fuel from the petcock while on run......am i getting there?

after work today i am taking it off and doing the cleaning you folks have suggested. i am also going to empty out the bowl of the carb just in case. is there anything special about the clean out screw that i should be aware of? (other than don't lose it)

sorry for the elementary questions, maybe the answers can help some other newbs with more pride than myself. i love riding again, and really want to understand this bike going forward. at this point in life i am more intrigued by trying to solve the puzzle than frustrated. you guys are helping a lot with that.

and by "R" word i hope you don't mean it rhymes with "sings". :'(

safe ridin.

scott

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by bess227 on 05/12/12 at 07:05:16

oh yea.....left out youzguyz and greenmonster......oversight on my part. sorry. thanks to all.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by Oldfeller on 05/12/12 at 09:17:17

667562637C7177757E21100 wrote:

I've seen crap collect inside of the petcock, so that possibly could cause some problems.

Yes, word of wisdom, words you can take to the bank -- crap does collect all around a vac petcock. Crap crawls into it and takes full possession of it, just like sweet little Linda Blair in the Exorcist.

Crap crawls up into the vac line and makes a nest, causing little tiny cracks in the rubber -- the tiniest invisible crack will cause the suction to drop to zero and the vacsucker simply stops working.

Crap crawls into the diaphragm, causing it to stiffen up (lose function). Eventually it cracks and leaks gasoline down the vac line into your carb and from there down the cylinder wall into the oil sump.

I think at last count there were 4 distinct failure modes to a vac petcock (or five if you counted putting the various hoses in the wrong place).

Your odds of having repeated vac petcock problems hits 100% over time unless you subscribe to a rigorous schedule of hose replacement, etc.

Well now, unless you like getting stalled in traffic repeatedly over the years there is really only two paths to take.

1) Become a vac petcock diagnostic expert and repeatedly replace all sorts of little rubbery bits and pieces ahead of time ....

..... repeatedly, mind you .....

OR

2) Yank the stock vac sucker off of there and replace it with a Raptor petcock.

Required reading for understanding where you are with the choices you have to eventually make.

Read up, then ask the rest of your questions.

Test your Petcock,.. don't just turn it to Prime.. (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1251932429/1)

We just know you will have lots & lots of them questions. And if you want to get a leg up on the petcock war that just started (with you as the primary example under question) read up on the subjects here.

Petcock Issues (poll and summary) (http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1286958926/0#0)

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by bess227 on 05/12/12 at 09:26:21

Oldfeller,

Looks like i got some petcock learnin to do.

awfully small piece of equipment to be causin such major issues, and the learnin has now begun.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by Boule’tard on 05/12/12 at 15:18:57

4E495F5F1E1E1B2C0 wrote:

and by "R" word i hope you don't mean it rhymes with "sings". :'(

Lord no, your rings are just barely broken in! They are not contributing to this problem. Oldfeller points out the 'R' I was alluding to, the Raptor petcock, and I concur with that post. A manual petcock eliminates the symptoms that mimic carb problems. The tradeoff of having a simpler, easier-to-diagnose system is having to remember to turn the gas off when you're done riding, then turn it back on as part of your startup routine.

I am still not 100% sure your carb doesn't have a clogged jet or something, since it was still running rough while on prime. But the fact that turning it to ON killed it (and you DO have a gallon or more gas in the tank, more than the 'reserve' amount) indicates a problem with the vacuum-petcock system.

I'd replace it with a Raptor petcock and clean the jets for good measure. Whether you want to go that route, or replace the stock petcock/vacuum line and retain the auto petcock function, is your call.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by bess227 on 05/12/12 at 18:37:16

well boys and girls, as they say, "it takes a village". i am riding again.

thanks to all that offered advice.

Boule'tard, i thought surely to the good lord it couldn't be rings this early, but i am so new to this scooter i am listening to anything.

I partook of the buffet of advice I was offered, so it may not be simple to know what exactly the problem was. here is what i did.

first.....drained the bowl...what i collected had some very miniscule "trash" in it, but it was definitely not super clean. after replacing the clean out screw, i swithched it to prime, filled the bowl, and drained it again. this time not nearly what i got the first time.

moved then to the vacuum hose. on the end coming into the carb, was a very tiny place at the bend, i don't think it was all the way thru, but i trimmed it off and replaced it.

then to the petcock, drained the tank, removed the petcock, shot it full of carb cleaner on all three settings. when i took the petcock off at first, if i turned the valve to all the settings i couldn't hear anything, after shooting it with the cleaner, i could hear the diaphram moving when switching from "run" to "prime".

put it all back on, opened it to prime to fill the bowl, then switched it to "run".

pulled the choke to the first notch, fired the bike, took it just a second to catch, but then fired right up. idled about 2 minutes and i took it thru the neighborhood, 20 minutes of riding and the last ten pushing it pretty hard she sounds like her old self.

thanks again to this group of geniuses for helping out a complete stranger and newb to this bike and motor. i know much more about this animal than i did a week ago due to your advice and the pics and instructions on some of your posts on the tech page.

if you guys are ever in NC riding the parkway and get in a bind, let me know, i will be on the way with tools to watch someone that knows what their doing work. ;)

safe ridin.

scott

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by LANCER on 05/13/12 at 06:24:24

A bunch of us will be riding the mountain roads around the Asheville area the last week of June (Monday the 26th to Monday the 2nd); using the Deals Gap Motorcycle Resort as our base camp and running hither and yon from there.
We were up to and through the Boone area a couple of years back.
Not everyone stays the whole week; many come in and out as able depending on their schedule.
It's THUMPER WEEK in the mountains ... come on down !

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by Routy on 05/13/12 at 07:24:12

Bess227,
Does your bike have a fuel filter tween tank and carb ?
If not I suggest you install one. You already know there is more than good clean gas in your tank. Any inline filter is better than the petcock screen.
W/o an inline fuel filter you are asking for carb problems.

And secondly, don't let the famous " Vacuum Petcock Paranoia" get to you ! Just make sure the vacuum line is in good shape. Mine is 7 yrs old, and never a problem.
I removed the bowl from my carb, for no reason other than to see the horrible junk that E10 leaves in carbs, and (after 7 yrs) found no sign of such a thing,....it was spotless except for some fine grit on the bottom, which prompted me to install a fuel filter.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by bess227 on 05/14/12 at 07:34:56

Lancer........thanks for the invite.......sounds like fun. I will look it up.

Routy, thanks again for the advice on the fuel filter, definitely consider that........ and the GREAT service on the FC's. Hopefully getting them mounted up this week. We are under flash flood warnings here and I need to ride the bike to my buddy's place to do the work.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help.

safe ridin.

Scott

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by bess227 on 05/16/12 at 07:27:50

to all you folks that helped me get going again.

the cleanouts and other stuff really worked. this thing is running better than it has since i bought it.

rode it in to work this morning, i know the windshield changes the feel of the wind, but i was running almost 70 and didn't realize it. motor sounded smooth, not out of breath at all.

anyway.....thanks a lot. ;)

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by 360k+ on 05/17/12 at 18:58:56

I know this is old hat, but if I understand the petcock correctly... prime does NOT pull from the bottom of the tank, reserve does. If prime pulled from the bottom, you would have no reserve.

BTW, an old pilot here. We always test our tanks for water before taking off.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by Serowbot on 05/17/12 at 19:19:13

Noop... Prime does pull from the bottom... so's you can use it to drain the tank if you need to...
So, if you run on prime... you got no reserve... ;)...

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by Boofer on 05/17/12 at 23:12:02

3D2B3C21392C213A4E0 wrote:

Noop... Prime does pull from the bottom... so's you can use it to drain the tank if you need to...
So, if you run on prime... you got no reserve... ;)...

Right, Serowbot.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/18/12 at 07:48:20

Prime & reserve pull from the same tube in the tank, prime bypasses the diaphragm, when you are outta gas on reserve, youre outta gas on prime, too,, so, get to walkin,,

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by 360k+ on 05/18/12 at 09:06:56

Yep, I understand the vacuum part which only allows fuel flow when the engine is running and producing suction. But if Pri drains the tank, then it sounds like my thinking of the terminology is reversed? Typically on bikes I've had in the past, you had main, reserve, and off. You normally ran on main until you ran out of fuel, then switched to reserve, which had a lower inlet level in the tank allowing access to the remaining fuel.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by EJID on 05/18/12 at 09:26:48

4442515A1A1610111A230 wrote:

And if you upgrade to the Raptor 660 petcock, that's what you will have again, plus easier to remove the tank. 8-)

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by verslagen1 on 05/18/12 at 10:28:58

4F495A51111D1B1A11280 wrote:

main and reserve are vacuum activated.
prime allows flow w/o vacuum.
prime runs from the same tap as reserve.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by 360k+ on 05/18/12 at 18:59:33

OK, I get it now. Actually, the shop manual kinda sorta describes it, but the owners manual provides a good explanation.

Title: Re: Please help a newb
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/19/12 at 07:22:24

Since Prime allows fuel to the carb w/o vacuum, you can start the bike after dropping th carb.